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PKK is a terrorist organisation. In article, it defined as militant. I don't want to say anything about the other informationsions. But an organisation that killed 30000 people can't defined as militant only. It also included international organisations terrorist listings.
Please remove this, it means Kurdish in the Arabic and Persian languages, but Kurds themselves don't use this word. At least mention the source language for it. For you information, in the Sorani-script, Kurd is written as ﺩﺭﻮﮐ and in the Kurmanji-script as Kurd. In the Turkish language, it is Kürt. Please either include all these, or remove the Arabic/Persian word. Heja Helweda 21:38, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
In the Kurdish, the first one, كوردﻯ /Kurdî, refers to the Kurdish language (and used as an adejective for Kurdish things , like Kurdish dance, folklore, language, etc.) and the second one كورد/Kurd refers to the ethnic group (a Kurdish person). Heja Helweda 22:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
No, Kurmanji is written in arabic script to. The Kurmanjis in Iraq,Syria, And Iran use Arabic Script. And please we are not 'Europeans' so please stop putting that on realted ethnic groups.
Hey all, you'll note I've made quite a drastic change to this section of the article. It was drastic because it needed to be drastic, feel free to chop/change the exact people that are included in this list, but please try and keep it below 15 people. If possible make them internationally renowned individuals (a google search count could help with this). Having >30 people in a list really sucks when there is already a page for List of Kurdish people. - FrancisTyers 01:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Its that time of year again... External links cull time!
If anyone disagrees, make it known here :) - FrancisTyers 22:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the link to kurdish media is relevant as it's probly the best news site about kurds and kurdish stuff over all the web... I don't see why a site with news about kurds isn't relevant in an article called "kurdish people"???
I'm also gonna add celal talabani and abdullah öcalan to the list of renowned kurdish individuals. the first is current president of iraq and second is leader of the kurds in turkey. if that's not renowned, what is :/ Soapy(reloaded) 22:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Main article: Kurdistan Workers Party The PKK is a formerly Marxist separatist group that until recently sought to create an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey and parts of neighboring countries inhabited by Kurds. (It’s known as the PKK after its Kurdish name, Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan.) During a rebellion that began in the mid-1980s and claimed some 35,000 lives, the group used guerrilla warfare, including kidnappings of foreign tourists in Turkey, suicide bombings ( exclusively against military targets ), and attacks on Turkish diplomatic offices in Europe. The PKK has also repeatedly attacked civilians who refuse to assist it. The organization was founded in 1973 by Abdullah Ocalan. He ruled the party until his capture in 1999 by Turkish special forces in Kenya, after taking refuge in the Greek embassy in Kenya. Ocalan remains imprisoned on an island (Imrali) near Istanbul.(see[14] )"
this looks like an exact copy of what's written in the link provided. do we have the right to use it? Soapy(reloaded) 22:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Its all wikipedia so yes. - FrancisTyers
no I meant the above paragraph is quite similar to what's written here :
http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/kurdistan_print.html
which is the link I was referring to.
for compareason :
"The PKK is a formerly Marxist separatist group that until recently sought to create an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey and parts of neighboring countries inhabited by Kurds. (It’s known as the PKK after its Kurdish name, Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan.) During a rebellion that began in the mid-1980s and claimed some 35,000 lives, the group used guerrilla warfare, including kidnappings of foreign tourists in Turkey, suicide bombings ( exclusively against military targets ), and attacks on Turkish diplomatic offices in Europe. The PKK has also repeatedly attacked civilians who refuse to assist it. The organization was founded in 1973 by Abdullah Ocalan. He ruled the party until his capture in 1999 by Turkish special forces in Kenya, after taking refuge in the Greek embassy in Kenya. Ocalan remains imprisoned on an island (Imrali) near Istanbul.(see[14] )"
"A Marxist separatist group that until recently sought to create an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey and parts of neighboring countries inhabited by Kurds. (It’s known as the PKK after its Kurdish name, Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan.) During a rebellion that began in the mid-1980s and claimed some 35,000 lives, the group used guerrilla warfare and terrorism, including kidnappings of foreign tourists in Turkey, suicide bombings, and attacks on Turkish diplomatic offices in Europe. The PKK has also repeatedly attacked civilians who refuse to assist it. "
the beginning and another sentence are exactly the same. Soapy(reloaded) 23:42, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
14 million kurds in Turkey!!!??? So where are them? These are only seperatist propagandas against Turkey without scientific results.There are 5,1 million original kurds in Turkey and 3,5 million people mixed kurds.Vandal numbers cant change the realities...
The Kurds are, an Iranian people (a classification that is more linguistic than 'ethnic' in the case of the Kurds) inhabiting a mountainous area of the Middle-East that includes parts of Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Syria as well as smaller sections of Armenia and Lebanon. Kurds speak the mostly mutually intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of languages.
Ranging anywhere from 27 to 28 million people, the Kurds comprise one of the largest ethnic groups without their own country in the world. For over a century, many Kurds have campaigned and fought for the right to 'self-determination' in an autonomous homeland known as "Kurdistan". The governments of those countries with sizable Kurdish populations are actively opposed to the possibility of a Kurdish state, believing such a development would require them to give up parts of their own national territories.
Firstly what means (a classification that is more linguistic than 'ethnic' in the case of the Kurds)
What makes Kurds to be more a linguistical classification as ethnical classification?
Therefor we look as first what Ethnic means: Ethnic
An ethnic group is a culture or subculture whose members are readily distinguishable by outsiders based on traits originating from a common racial, national, linguistic, or religious source.
Look at the Oxford dictionary: Ethnic: connected with or belongig to a nation, race or tribe that shares a cultural tradition
Thus the question is what are Kurds on their culture and race? Would we deny that Englishmen are cultural/racial Germanic? Or would we deny that Swedish or Norsk are Germanic in culture and race? The same for Germans. Thus why on Wikipedia we deny that Kurds are Iranians in culture and race?
About race: We read in Quitana-Murci et al study on maternal ancestry of Southwest Asian population's mtDNA that: Populations located west of the Indus basin, including those from Iran, Anatolia and the Caucasus, exhibit a common mtDNA lineage composition, consisting mainly of western Eurasian lineages, with a very limited contribution from South Asia and eastern Eurasia (fig. 1). Indeed, the different Iranian populations show a striking degree of homogeneity. This is revealed not only by the nonsignificant FST values and the PC plot (fig. 6) but also by the SAMOVA results, in which a significant genetic barrier separates populations west of Pakistan from those east and north of the Indus Valley (results not shown). These observations suggest either a common origin of modern Iranian populations and/or extensive levels of gene flow amongst them
This study show that modern Iranian populations(including Baloches, Persians, Kurds, Lurs, Pashtuns, Ossetians, Tajiks...) have a COMMON origin!
Thus what makes Kurds different from other Iranian people in their race?
All physical anthropologist classify Kurds as belonging to the Irano-Afghan race, as Persians, Pashtuns, Tajiks and all other Iranian speaking people belong to!
Kurds celebrate Norouz like all other Iranian people, we must classify them as an Iranian people by race, culture and language!
So how it comes that in Wikipedia there is written something else, and when I try to revert it, different users change it back?
Also I am against the classification of which belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of languages.
This classification is not a classification this is politics of some users here.
Is Russian classificated by his Superclass? Russian (Russian: русский язык, russkij jazyk, ['ru.skʲi jɪ.'zɨk] listen ▶ (help·info)) is the most widely spoken language of Europe and the most widespread of the Slavic languages.
NO, no where is there written that Russian is a Balto-Slavic language.
Or German? Is there written that German is a Balto-Germano-Slavic language? Why now pointing out that it is Indo-Iranian in the Kurdish case? As first it is an Iranian language which makes 4000 years differences up with the Indo-Aryan languages. Second if the visitor don't know what Iranian language is he can click on the article about Iranian languages.
I will change the information back, as long you bring me proofs that it isn't this way! -- ShapurAriani 19:24, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Shapur I see nothing wrong with article. what you say above has been already put in the article. Look at the Persian people article. There is also the same clasification as here.=> Indo-European, Iranian people.
Mesopotamia 20:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Because in an other article there is the same mistake you can not argument! Zhe Oxford dictionary says about Ethnic: Ethnic: connected with or belongig to a nation, race or tribe that shares a cultural tradition
Thus Indo-Europeans can not be a related ethnic group, because 1) Indo-European is not a nation, 2) Indo-European is not a race, 3) Indo-European is not a tribe, and 4) Indo-European doesn't shares cultural traditions Thus Indo-European can not be a related ethnic group, it is a linguistical classification. Btw. why you reverting all the article? This is untypical for working at Wikipedia. The next time befor you reverting anything, begin a discussion, not a refer on an other mistake and then change only the part which you disagree! -- ShapurAriani 20:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
My brother is genetican he claims that Kurds/Pashtuns/Tajiks/Persians are the nearest related group, even physicial anthroplogist provide this. Now this anti-Kurdish joke is spaming, because he knows that Kurds are Iranians, and he dislike this, because this doesn't fit in his world where Kurds are Turks. Thus I don't accept your suggetion, because the racial difference between Kurds/Persians/Pashtuns/Tajiks and other Iranians is so small, that we must see them as an own group beside the Arabic/Turkish/European world! -- ShapurAriani 13:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurds don't speak among themselves in a foreign tongue. What matters is how they are communicating with one another, not with their neighbors or the outside world. Otherwise English/Swedish/German/French should also be mentioned since hundreds of thousands of expat. Kurds are using those languages on a daily basis, but among themselves, they only use Kurdish. Heja Helweda 05:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
And it is quite obvious that German is the main working second tongue among expat. Kurdish community of half a million in Germany. The same is true for English/French/Swedish. Heja Helweda 06:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurdish is an Iranian language or a group of languages of the Iranian language family
Why you point out that the Iranian language family is of the superclass of Indo-Iranian languages and of the greater languagefamily of Indo-European languages! Is this the philosophy of Wikipedia? When there is an article there is no need to explain everyword. There is no need to explain what Iranian languages are or the Iranian language family is. There is a link, where everyone can click and read what it is. This is non-sense use of server space. This is why there is no need to explain what Iranian lagnuages are, the visitor can click on the link and read it. -- ShapurAriani 20:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
You just like to limit definition of the Kurds and their language to be an Iranian people, but since there is no problem on behalf of the sprace in wikipedia this sentence does not make any problem. I do not agree with your last edit. I am going to re-add that sentence. please do not remove info from the pages.
Mesopotamia 20:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
user:ShapurAriani claims that There are many Zoroastrian Kurds, there are even Kurdish translation of the Avesta, thus why you revert it? If again I will compain by the admin!). But he has no evidence for his claim. Of course translation of Avesta is not a proof, since Bible has also been translated into Kurdish, but that isnot a proof for Kurds being christian.
Heja Helweda 05:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
@Admin: Norooz is a zoroastrian festival, why Kurds celebrate it? Why Kurds have all the zoroastrian sagas? Why there are so many zoroastrian tempels in Kurdistan? Myself is a zoroastrian Kurd and this I can proof until 400 BC. My family is orginally from Sina/Kermanshah. Now this anti-Zoroastrian guy claims something which is not true and plays up the role of the Yezidis. I think he is Yezidi and this is why some Yezidi Kurds claim so much bullshit. They know that they are in fact a split of the original Zoroastrian faith. You can not set the christian Bible equal with the Avesta. The Avesta is specifiy and they translate it not by fun. Zoroastrianism is not a world religion, but they have translated the Avesta into the Kurdish language which is a proof. -- ShapurAriani 10:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Reverting because member of a terroristic Turksih organization is erasing facts! @Admin please check at discussion thx!
I do not care what the debate is about, but such incivility is not tollerated on wikipedia. Have a read of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA prior to making any edits on wikipedia please. If I do not see a gradual shift to civility here, I will take action. -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 11:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand the antagonism that resulted in leaving out the original intro sentence "The Kurds are an Iranian people..." or "The Kurds are an ethnic group of Iranian origin," etc. Kurds are widely accepted as being an Iranian people, and they are listed in the Iranian peoples article - so they are not just a group "related" to "Iranian peoples." It is needlessly politicizing an issue that goes beyond politics since "Iranian" in this context does not refer to the actual country but to an entire grouping of related ethnic groups that have common origins. At any rate, if it is to be left this way, that's perfectly fine, but I have removed the pointless bit about "middle-eastern" (in lowercase, at that) which is not only misleading but inaccurate. SouthernComfort 23:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I am self a Kurd, thus I know that we Kurds are ethnically Iranians and some of us even citizen of Iran. I think this is politic of anti-Iranians. They try to hide the true identity of us Kurds and our great past. Not more then politic. Fact is Kurds are an ethnic group of Iranian origin and thus an Iranian people. -- ShapurAriani 16:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
In wikipedia talk pages people easily change their ethnicity!
Since we Kurds are a middle-eastern ethnic group I do not agree with your challenge to ulta-Iranize the kurds. You so called pan -iranists even try to Iranize Turkish people in your beloved country. both a political and not scientific action.
Regarding the Kurds in the relevant paragraph in the article it has been mentioned that kurds have some similarities with Iranians.
Mesopotamia 17:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, as i explained for you above that wikipedia is not a soapbox. I am glad that you have learned it. Mesopotamia 00:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
It has been already put in the several places in the article (f.ex. infobox) that kurds are an Iranian ethnic group but it does not need in the first paragraph which will be somhow biased toward pro-iranianism. an encyclopedic paragraph beggins as:
People living in a landscape called Kurdistan, covering southeastern Turkey, northeastern Syria, northern Iraq, western Iran, Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Mesopotamia 19:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it just creates confusion. Iranian mostly refers to citizens of Iran. Therefore it does not apply to three quarters of Kurds who are citizens of Iraq, Turkey , Syria and Armenia. Officially, from the point of view of International Law, Kurds of those countries are not considered Iranian. So I suggest remove this term, because it is right in the beginning of the article and confuses everybody. However I am aware that those who are for the term Iranian, consider it as an ethnic/linguistic classification. Perhaps they should try to find a better term which does not mix with nationality. Heja Helweda 00:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
member of an ethnic and linguistic group living in the Taurus Mountains of eastern Anatolia, the Zagros Mountains of western Iran, northern Iraq, and adjacent areas. Most of the Kurds live in contiguous areas of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey, a region generally referred to as Kurdistan (“Land of the Kurds”). [1]
There is no reference to Iranian people. So I suggest removing this term, since it is confusing and credible, neutral sources (such as above) do not mention it. Heja Helweda 03:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
There has been no source given for the instance of including Iranian people as a definition of Kurds. Until a verified source can be found, please do not include it in the article. Joe I 04:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Joe I 04:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
As a Kurd I deny being ethnitically Iranian. I have never heard anywhere that kurds are ethnitically Iranian. Kurds are decendants of indigenious people of northern Mesopotamia and western Zagros than Iranian people; in other words Kurds are an amalgam of languistically Iranicized tribes, mainly autochthonous such as Kardu, some semitic, and, some Armenian.
Mesopotamia 12:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
THERE IS NO PURE RACE AND THAT IS THE FIRST THING YOU LEARN IN ANTHROPOLOGY, BUT THE KURDS ARE OF IRANIAN STOCK, SURE THEY MIXED WITH OTHER RACES BUT SO DID THE PERSIANS. BESIDES SCIENTIFIC PROOF THERE IS THE KURDS OWN TALES AND HISTORICAL STORIES OF ORIGIN THAT SUPPORT THEIR IRANIAN IDENTITY. THE PROBLEM TODAY IS KURDS ARE THE VICTIMS OF COLONALISM AND IMPERIALIST POLICIES. WHEN THEY WERE DIVIDED FROM OTHER KURDS AND IRANIANS THEY WERE LEFT IN SUSPENTION OF THEIR IDENTITY. ALL THAT THEY KNEW IS THAT THEY WERE KURDS. ONE MAJOR PROBLEM IS THAT KURDS OUTSIDE OF IRAN THINK THAT THE TERM IRANIAN MEANS PERSIAN OR IS A NATIONAL TERM LIKE IRAQI AND SYRIAN. IN REALITY IRANIAN IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT HAS ALSO BEEN USED TO DENOTE A NATION, IN THIS CASE IRAN, WHERE THIS GROUP DOMINATES. IT IS THE SAME FOOTING AS YUGOSLAVIAN WHICH WAS A NATIONALITY BUT MENT 'SOUTHERN SLAV' WHICH ALSO INCLUDED BULGARIANS EVEN THOUGH BULGARIANS WERE NOT A PART OF YUGOSLAVIA. I AM AFRAID THAT PRESENTLY POLITICS IS VICTIMIZING THIS ACADEMIC SUBJECT WERE AS STATES LIKE ISRAEL AND THE USA ARE SUPPORTING THE DISASSOCATION OF KURDS FROM IRANIAN OR ANYTHING OF THE LIKE AND OMMITING CONVERSATIONS ON THE SUBJECT IN ACADEMIC CIRCLES.
The sources at the end of the Iranian peoples article.
http://www.parstimes.com/Iranians.html This is obviously not academic.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90019 This one is credible but it just talks about Iranian Language Group not Iranian people.
http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9368164 This one is also just about language not ethnicity.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/iranian_languages.htm This is also only language.
http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/iranian-peoples_articles.htm This is the one that is supposed to talk about Iranian peoples. It has a section for Kurd, but it refers to some other articles as follows:
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Kurds/kurdish_tribes.htm This does not mention anything about Kurds being Iranian people. It just says Kurdish tribes are found throughout Iranian world including Iran proper, eastern Anatolia and northern Iraq. But it does not explain what does it mean by the Iranian world. I guess the region in which Iranian languages are spoken.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Kurds/milan.htm This one does not mention the term Iranian.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Kurds/hamavand.htm
This one is interesting, because it makes the problem even more clear. It says : An Iranian stock of Kurdish tribe of northeastern Mesopotamia which has been described as "the most celebrated fighting Kudish tribe" (Edmonds, pp. 39-40). The Hamâvand reportedly moved from the Kermânšâh in mainland Iran, to the Bâz-yân district, between Kerkuk and Solaymâniya, early in the 18th century.
The tribe is originally from Kermanshah inside Iran, so probably he means a tribe which was originally hailed from the Iranian territory, and that's why it calls the tribe as being Iranian.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/40813.html This one is the most credible in the genetic study of the population of Middle East/Central Asia. But Its sample just contains Iranian Kurds not Iraqi Kurds or Kurds of Turkey. This article has never used the term Iranian peoples, just neutral terms like Iranian plateau or Iranian populations(people who live inside Iran). Also it does not prove anything like Kurds being racially Iranian people as intended in the article Iranian peoples. Please remove the reference to Kurds, or just say Iranian Kurds.
For the geographic grouping, we divided populations into four regions: the Anatolian/Caucasus region (Anatolians and Caucasus populations), the Iranian plateau (Persians, Iranian Turks, Lurs, Iranian Kurds, Mazandarans, and Gilaks), the Indus Valley (Baluchi, Brahui, Parsi, Sindhi, Pakistani-Karachi, Pathans, Makrani, Hazara, and Gujarat) and Central Asia (Uzbeks, Turkmen, Kurds from Turkmenistan, Shugnan, Hunza Burusho, and Kalash). Heja Helweda 19:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I hope the following paper will clarify the issue.
Genetic distance comparisons have revealed that the Turkic and Turkoman speaking peoples in the Caspian area cluster with the Kurds, Greeks and Iranis. The Persian speakers are genetically remote from these populations; they are, however, close to the Parsis who migrated from Iran to India at the end of the Seventh Century A.D. [2]
This basically says that Kurds/Turks are far from Persians genetically speaking. Iranian is just a language classification.
Heja Helweda 01:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
YOUR SOURCE IS WRONG AND QUESTIONABLE IN ORIGIN
Kurds and Persians have been show to be very similar in the most up to date studies.
There is a lot of games being played here. Kurds and Persians are both Aryan peoples of the Indo-European family. All Kurds are taught that they are Aryans unlike the Arabs and Turks from when they are kids. As for the claim that Jews and Kurds are the same I think that has to do with Israeli plans for control of Kurdistan, Iraq, and Iran.
There are a lot of sources regarding Kurds are not ethnitcically an Iranian people.
The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews
D iyako Talk + 12:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
This is absolute bullshit. I know a lot about genetics, and the Kurds are very different from Jews. Sure there are some boundaries between Jews and all Iranians, this is due they are all Near Easterns. But is this a suprise or any kind of prove for your stupid theory Mesopotamia? You listen more like a non-Kurd, who is trying to tell bullshit about us Kurds. I think you are a Turk who want to claim Kurds are Turks. This is my opinion! -- ShapurAriani 13:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
It looks even kurds dont like jews.But i think they should love them.They are training PKK terrorists in north iraq after all...
-Inanna-
Once again, if you care to make a statement such as that, I dont suppose you would have any evidence to support it would you? Unbased allegations lead nowhere and just hinder productivity. Please read WP:WWIN ( More specifically here) and WP:POINT.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 03:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point something out. There are genetic similarities between certain Jewish groups and Iranian peoples that is because those 'groups' within the Jewish population are Iranian Jews, either Tats, or Persian Jews or Kurdish Jews. Jewish people are not an ethnic group they are a faith or religious group. There are Jews from many gene pools and various races. There are Negroid Jews from Africa and Dravidian Jews from southern India. One of the largest populations to have Jews is that of the Iranian peoples. In fact the state of Iran has the second largest Jewish population in the Middle East after Israel. The similarity of these people, Jews and Kurds in particular is due to shared Iranian genes among a few other minor ones. There is an article about Kurdish Jews and Persian Jews. It is called the "Children of Queen Ester." Ester was the Empress or Queen of Iran and wife of Emperor Xerxes who fought the Athenians and Spartans in what classical scholars refer to as the Persian Wars. A large portion of Israelis are Iranian Jews like Israel's head of state, Moshe Katsav [3] who is from Yazd, Iran and the current Israeli defence minister.
The genetic similarities that are greatest between Kurds and Jews are with the group of Jews that are Iranian or what is termed as 'Iranic' in origin such as Persian Jews and Kurdish Jews and Tats. One will find that Jews that are from Arabic countries are very similar to Arabs and that Jews from Europe are very similar genetically to the Europeans.
Mind you there is in most Jews a hint or trace of that unique Hebrew gene of their Semitic ancestors, but it is not the dominant genetic make up. The genes of the nations the Jews settled in are what are dominant in their genetic makeup. A Russian Jew is ethnically a Russian while an Iranian Jew is ethnically an Iranian. European Jews are in fact not Semitic, as opposed to Arab Jews who are Semitic. Semitic peoples are tanned and dark haired people, while many European Jews are fair and resemble the native European population. I hope you follow.
Genetically and hereditarily the most similar people to the Kurds are the Lur and Bakhtiaris , which are both Iranian peoples, followed by the Persians. To say that Kurds and other Iranian peoples are dissimilar is exceedingly incorrect. The Kurds are definitely and inarguably a part of the Iranian genetic group as are Lurs, Persian, and Ossetians.
The article that is basically claiming that Kurds are closer to Jewish populations than Iranians is incoherent and should be deleted because it is taken out of context and is from a non-primary and constricted source that has been widely disagreed with by the scientific community.
The history section is somewhat misleading. It describes the "Hurrian phase" of Kurdish history (which alone seems a bit odd, since the Kurds per se didn't exist then) and lists the names of Hurrian groups, including the Hittites.
It then states that Indo-European speakers moved into the region later, and lists a number of Indo-Aryan groups (the Medes, Mitanni, and Scythians). But the Hittites were themselves Indo-European speakers, which is nowhere stated. -- Saforrest 08:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Hittites had come from behind of caucaissia(central asia).The early Turks in this period didnt have a developed language and they had taken the language of indo-european tribes in caucaussia while they are coming.Kurds are indo-iranian people.
-Inanna-
First of all the Kurdish flag is allowed in Iran, but is not sanctioned publicly. Kurds have it in their homes and are allowed to have them. It is certainly not criminal in Iran for Kurds to have the Kurdish flag or symbol as many of my friends do. So edit your statement about it being criminal in Iran. Need I remind you all, that Kurds are ethnic Iranians and have historically enjoyed the greatest liberties in Iran as opposed to the mainstream discrimination Kurds face in Syria, Iraq, and Turkey? It is usually Israeli sources, with increasing American and British help and aid, that intentionally falsely claim that the Kurdish flag (which fly the Pan-Iranian colours as does the unofficial flag of the Azerbaijani people and the flag of Tajikistan) is prohibited in Iran. FLYING THE KURDISH FLAG IN IRAN IS NOT CRIMINAL AS IT IS MENTIONED BY ISRAELI SOURCES.
Furthermore, I go on to read that there was research done that basically proves Kurds and Jews are genetically the same. It seems to me that certain individuals who I can see are Israeli are following the Israeli states policy of editing articles in lines with current events in the Middle East. Kurds are Iranians just as how Russians, Serbs, Poles, and Bulgarians are all Slavic peoples. Israel, the USA, and Britain are trying to create conflict in Iran, Kurdistan, and the Middle East as was done in the former Yugoslavia by creating problems along ethnic lines. This is called ‘balkanisation.’ The Israelis are doing this covertly through operations in Iraqi Kurdistan.
Propaganda for dividing and conquering people starts with definitions then the manipulation of history. I am an academic in the fields of anthropology and history and an Iranian from a minority group that is neither Persian nor Kurdish. I can tell you that Kurds are definitely ethnic Iranians in all senses from tradition to language, history, culture, identity, and genetics. I am alarmed by the current purging of internet articles that have hidden agendas trying to separate the Iranian identity of Kurds.
As I was told by a Kurdish professor, Mr. Eskandari in Tehran: “Kurds are Iranian and the entity of Iran as a state and nation was founded by the [main] ancestors of the Kurds, the Mede who established Iran as an empire. One problem that has compounded the issue is that people misuse the term Persian and Iranian. Persians are Iranian, but all Iranians, like the Kurds and Ossetians, are not Persians.”
The Mede and other similar Iranian groups are the ancestors of the Kurds, but not the only group, just like how the ancient Persians are the main ancestors of the modern Persians, but not the only ancestors. Ancestors of Persians and Kurds also include Arabs, Mongols, and other Iranian peoples.
I ask all the honest people on this site who wish to enhance knowledge not to take part in this fabrication of fact. There was a time when the Turkish government tried to convince Kurds that they were “Mountain Turks” and now there are powers at play that are either trying to disassociate the Kurds from their Iranian identity and origins or make whole generations of proud young Kurds forget or be unaware of their Iranian ethnicity. This is due to geo-strategic schemes. These forces are trying to victimize a whole group of people from knowing their own proud history and culture which is genuinely Iranian. The covert foreign policy of Israel, Britain, and America comes at the expense of the Kurds and even their history and culture.
“THE ENEMIES OF SCIENCE, THE ARTS, AND KNOWLEDGE ARE THE ENEMIES OF ALL MANKIND!”
Wikipedia is an ensyclopedia not a forum. Kurdish flag is banned in Iran; Flying it causes THREE years inprisonment. Even as far as I know it is not based on your Pan-Iranistic flag! Instead of accusing other people think of citing neutral sources. Mesopotamia 00:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I am neutral it seems that you are the one that is trying to promote an idea or cause while at the same time repressing the truth. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO FLY THE KURDISH FLAG IN IRAN OR TO SPEAK KURDISH OR TO LEARN IN KURDISH. YOU HAVE SAID IT IS CRIMINAL TO FLY THE KURDISH FLAG IN IRAN. IT IS BANNED PUBLICALLY BUT IS NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENCE.
ALL YOU NEED TO DO BUDDY IS GO TO "THE UNIVERSITY OF KURDISTAN'S WEB SITE." YES, THE "UNIVERSITY OF KURDISTAN" IN "IRAN" ALSO CALLED "UOK."
THE IRANIAN STATE IS AN "IRANIAN" NATION WHICH MEANS ALL IRANIAN PEOPLES, NOT JUST PERSIANS THAT IS WHY IRAN FREELY RECOGNIZES KURDISTAN AND HAS A PROVINCE NAMED KURDISTAN AND UNIVERSITIES WITH THE TITLE KURDISTAN AND ALLOWS KURDISH TO BE TAUGHT AND HAS PUBLIC, KURDISH BROADCASTING!
The Kurdish flag was from the Mahhabad Republic in Iran and formed by Kurds living within Iran. It is an inverse of the Pan-Iranian colours. It even has the Sun that is so important to all Iranian peoples and their calender and festavals such as Noruz. Noruz is the official New Year in Iran and celebrated by all Iranian peoples. The Sun was also on the Iranian flag along with a lion and sword before 1979. The use of the Sun was of great importance to the Ancient Aryan ancestors of the Kurds who were Zoroastrians. Zoroastrain faith was the state faith of Ancient Iran.
WHO WROTE THAT KURDISH IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL IN IRAN? THAT IS UNTRUE? THIS IS NOT A FORUM OF PROPGANDA!!! Kurdish is freely taught in schools in Iran and all that one has to do is go on to the Iranian governments websites on education and see. Also please note services on some of these websites are offered in Kurdish by the Iranian government! So how is Kurdish not allowed to be talked or spoken in Iran???? Who is writting this propaganda about Iran and Kurdistan?
According to section 15 of the Iranian Constitution (after the 1979 Iranian Revolution), Kurdish education next to teaching Persian is a right of the Iranian people. Before the Iranian Revolution of 1979, Kurdish was allowed to be taught in Iranian universities such as in Tabriz University in Northern Iran.
The University of Kurdistan (OUK) in Sinne or Sanandaj, Iran has one of the worldest best Kurdish language and literature programs [4].
Thank you for not screaming and for not making accusations. Wikipedia is free-edit wiki and the best thing to do is simply correct these innacuracies through the editing process.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 01:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, user 69.196.139.250, me too appreciate your writing personal POVs here than push it in the article. Mesopotamia 02:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Mesopotamia has made more than 3 reverts and should be blocked! Admins please check!
Mesopotamia 11:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Beside vandalising cited info from the page you are wasting your time. There is NO neutral source in this planet to support your childish claims. On the other hand there are thousands (if not milions or miliards) neutral and credible sources opposing your too childish claims. Maby you think Kurdish people are so forgotten among western midia that you can easily lie in the English wikipedia?!!! Or maybe you want us to mention all of those unjustifies against Kurdish people in Iran, do you? Ok. I myself will try mention and more more wildness of Iranians against this minority in Kurds own Homeland.
Ageh behetoon barnakhore darin waqte khodetoono talaf mikonin! Mesopotamia 11:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Lastly what is most important of all is what the Kurds of Iran say themselves and they will all disagree with you and your ignorant remarks. The Kurds in Iran are treated well. How many Kurds from Iran must tell you this. I see you argued with all the people who have rational statements like the fact that Kurds are an Iranian ethnic group! You have no credibility.
Mesopotamia 18:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurdish is taught in many universities in many countries in Europe in russia in etc...
as well as in Iran but children are not not not not alloed to use it to use it to use it hali mishid..!!!!!!!!
Mesopotamia
18:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
GO ask an Kurd from Iranian your source is wrong! I come from there I know! They will tell you that they learned Kurdish. You are spreading POVs. Look just cause Kurds were treated badly in Iraq and Turkey does not mean they were in Iran.
Mr Daneshmand my sources are from Human Rights Watch, Human Rights First UN, credible News aggencies..... You claim they are wrong is your own problem!! Mesopotamia 18:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I was in hurry and after puting that went out. Now read this: Iran's religious and ethnic minorities remained subject to discrimination and persecution. Representatives of the predominantly Sunni Muslim Kurdish minority protested the appointment of a new governor of Kurdistan province from the Shi'a majority. The authorities overlooked Sunni candidates for the post put forward by Kurdish parliamentarians. The lack of public school education in Kurdish language remained a perennial source of Kurdish frustration Mesopotamia 18:34, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
That governor was a Shia Kurd. Kermanshah's is also a Kurdish province and there is no problems there due to the fact that almost all the Kurds there are Shias. I do agree with you there are problmes in relations to preferance for Shia candidates, but there are many Kurds in Parliament in Tehran and they have equal represntation. Kurdish is taught in Iranian schools but not the public boards of education it is in the alternative 'Azzad boards of Education' which have tutition.
Anyway Kurds are oppressed in iran and we cannot deby this. Mesopotamia 18:52, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Armenian genocide is another matter, Kurdish king, kurdish X kurdish Y Kurdsish Y, Here this article is about kurdish people and this fact that what is doing on them. Here is not a forum or a paltak room. If you like paltak rooms i can introduce you some but here if you have a neutral and credible source like my sources you can provide otherwise shoma be kheyr o ma be salamat. and do not waste your and my time. if you still are interested to discuss the kurdish question in Iran you can contact me on yahoo messenger. Mesopotamia 19:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
You! Because:
A+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J+K is NOT same as: E Mesopotamia 19:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
What does it matter. Khamenei is Azeri but Azeri people are still oppressed in Iran as well as Kurds. You cannot lie for the world. It is 2006! Mesopotamia 19:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
So you mean Kurdish language is not banned from teaching Islamic Republic of Iran!!!!
Mesopotamia
19:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I mean Kurdish children. Mesopotamia 19:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Go read Kurdistan Observer and what it says. It is fair and tries to be unbaised and talks to regular Kurds. It still is pushes towards seperation, but at least it does not totally hide scientific facts and everyday truths.
READ THIS ALL IT RIGHTEN BY AN ORGANIZATION THAT WANTS TO ADVANCE KURDS. IT GOES AGAINST WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. YOU ARE CLEARLY BIASED YOU EDIT THE TERM THAT KURDS ARE AN ETHNIC IRANIAN GROUP WHICH IS A FACT.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~konews/23-11-02-kurds-iran-cling-homeland.html
http://home.cogeco.ca/~konews/23-11-02-kurds-iran-cling-homeland.html While Iraqi Kurds map out post-Saddam Hussain scenario that they expect following U.S.-led campaign to overthrow him, their counterparts in northwestern Iran cling to their motherland. As the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), which have been ruling two-thirds of Iraq's Kurdish region for 11 years, implicitly fan the flame of separatism, Iranian Kurds accentuate their Iranian origins and assure that "we are more Iranian than Iranians." Asadollah Darvish Amiri, Deputy General Governor of the province for security affairs, said: "Kurds are the purest Iranian in this country and they are first Iranian and then Kurd. So they have never intended to separate from Iran." Abdolmomen Mardokh, a political activist and the head of political parties in the western Province of Kurdistan, said: "Many times we get accused of trying to create a Kurdish state or separate from Iran. However, we want a situation in which the Kurds can live as first-class citizens and as full partners to other Iranians in the government." Despite their division on a number of issues, Iranian Kurds seem to be united in their vision of the future. They look at incidents in Iraq as a pattern for their destiny, not a plan that can be practically implemented to change Iran's political system or lead to federalism in Iran's political structure. Tehran, despite its recent warming up of diplomatic relations with its neighbours, says "it never put all its eggs in Saddam's basket, and is spending its honeymoon with two major anti-Saddam parties KDP and PUK." Jalal Talibani, Chief of PUK, recently visited Tehran and promised to curb Iran's arch-foe Komoleh party, which is now in Talibani's territory in Soleymaniah, north of Iraq. Talibani plays a key role alongside Massoud Barzani, head of KDP, in the Iraqi Kurdistan, and their role is expected to grow bigger in the post-Saddam era. Iranian Kurds say they can breathe more easily in their relations with their Iraqi counterparts for they have informal trading relations with Iraq's Kurdistan. Moreover, Iranian contractors are dealing with reconstruction of the Iraqi Kurd cities. In the case of a U.S. attack on Iraq, Iran's Kurdistan border can also be a haven to accommodate a huge influx of refugees. "They are our Muslim brethren. Why shouldn't we help them? Some of us are married to Iraqi Kurdish women, and some women from our province are married to men over there. You can say that we are members of the same family," said Ahmad, 24, an educated unemployed young man. When President Mohammed Khatami took office in 1997, he created a liberal atmosphere for Iran's Sunni Kurds by appointing a Abdollah Ramezanzadeh, a Kurd, as General Governor. Although three dissidents have been executed recently in the Kurdish area of western Azerbaijan, Kurds are now free enough to criticise the central government on issues related Kurdistan. "This is the very first time in our contemporary political history that we are articulating our vision for what we want," said Mardokh, comparing the current situation with a decade ago. "Kurdish rights can be realised within the framework of a state under the full control of central government like that in the U.S.," he said. Iranian Kurds, however, say they are unhappy with the fact that the "government does not employ us in high-ranking positions. President Khatami tried to calm them down by appointing Kurds in senior positions in his government. However, Kurds believe that the moderate pro-reform President "didn't keep his words in employing many Kurds even in their own province."Amiri said that they have selected Kurds for top administrative positions in the province as much as they could. "Some four governors out of nine and some 320 top administrators out of 400 in the province are Kurds." Khatami's popularity has fallen among Kurds in recent years. He got less than 50 per cent of the votes in Kurdistan in presidential election last year, while he gained more than 70 per cent in the presidential election in 1997. Unemployment also adds fuel to the fire of people's unease regarding political incidents while they keep their eyes open to what is going on in Iraq. While Iraqi Kurds are waiting for an American-led attack to share more power with next Iraqi government, Iranian Kurds are trying to be a full partners of power in central the government.]]
):- It's not related to topic. it is a political POV!!
Mesopotamia 19:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
That is a Kurdish source from outside Iran which is neurtral. FIrstly is shows you the Kurds demands in Iran and shows that they are treated well and it also shows you that they have power. So like I said don't think cause you are a Kurd that you are an authority to speak about Kurds in Iran. With your propaganda. You have been proven to be biased and have no credit. As your conversations with other memebers show.
Why is it that when an article is added about Zoroastrian Kurds it is deleted? Zoroastrianism was the original religion of the Kurds. It is part of the legacy of Kurdish culture along with Noruz. Why is the fact that the Kurds ancestors where Zoroastrians being covered up? What does it expose?
Ethnically close to the Iranians, the Kurds were traditionally nomadic herders but are now mostly seminomadic or sedentary. The majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims. Kurdish dialects belong to the northwestern branch of the Iranian languages. The Kurds have traditionally resisted subjugation by other nations. Despite their lack of political unity throughout history, the Kurds, as individuals and in small groups, have had a lasting impact on developments in SW Asia. Saladin, who gained fame during the Crusades, is perhaps the most famous of all Kurds.
Columbia encyclopedia clearly states ethnically close to Iranians. SouthernComfort 00:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
BTW, Columbia is a neutral, and very credible source, so I can't see how anyone can dispute it. I will also gather academic sources when I have time, all of which will back up Columbia on this. SouthernComfort 00:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Culturally and historically, Kurds are not related to Iranians. Their religion differ from Iranians. Genetically they differ from Iranians. 1 similarity, 4 difference! Mesopotamia 17:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the genetic study you mention is far too limited to encapsulate the entire Kurdish peoples. How can you generalize your own people in this way? We are all diverse, but we share a common heritage. Academic, scholarly sources all back this up, and they don't have to rely on "genetic" studies to prove anything, because this heritage is not tied down to racial issues. SouthernComfort 01:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
The sources provided in the article clearly point out a close ethnic bond between Kurds and Jews. Please note that The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It's important to note that "verifiability" in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability Heja Helweda 02:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
This article has been protected to stop a reversion war. Please see the dispute resolution process; if you disagree with the protection of this article, please contact me or see Requests for page protection. Note that disagreement amongst editors is the reason the article is protected, and should not be used as an argument for unprotection. // Pathoschild ( admin / talk) 04:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
In the light of the evidence put forward by both sides, I suggest include both terms Iranian people and Jewish people in the Related Ethnic Groups section of the Table. Heja Helweda 04:16, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
You are advocating somethiing that is outside of the widely accepted definitions. What you are doing is wrong and you have proven yourself not to be a neutral person. You have seperatist motives which are biased and have no place here.
Please disambiguate genetic to genetics - cohesion★ talk 09:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Culturally, historically, religiously and genetically Kurds differ from Iranians. 1 similarity, 4 difference!
So regarding variant sources we cannot summarize Kurds ethnicity in one word. You should not ignore all other sources just calling them Iranian. Calling them Iranian means rewriting history. But off course you can cite your sources in the related section historic roots in the article.
This is the most logic solution. If we all accept this so the problem is gone. But if not, then unfortunately the edit war continues...
Mesopotamia 18:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
آدمی کهر هنوز عرضه نداره اراجیفش را امضاکند
No Kurds are not an iranian people. even they are ashamed to call them Iranian. maybe you do not know that this year is 2006, 14 centuries has been passed. They see iranians as unwelcome agressive people who occupied their homeland. kurds have faced other groups who influnced them more than Iranians.
Do not forget that kurds even originally were not Iranians. Mesopotamia 19:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Key point that most people are missing here. Iranian is a nationality more than an ethnicity. Persian is more or less the ethnicity. Under this definition, most Kurds would be considerable as Iranians, although they may not always be referred to as such.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 02:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kurds/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
* Very through coverage of topic; an impressive number of references. The references, however, are improperly formatted. They should be formatted such that the full details of every reference appears in a readable manner in the references section (as opposed to simply a set of square brackets with a number inside, e.g. [35]). See
Taiwanese aborigines for some examples of fully formatted <ref> tags.
|
Last edited at 13:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 20:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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PKK is a terrorist organisation. In article, it defined as militant. I don't want to say anything about the other informationsions. But an organisation that killed 30000 people can't defined as militant only. It also included international organisations terrorist listings.
Please remove this, it means Kurdish in the Arabic and Persian languages, but Kurds themselves don't use this word. At least mention the source language for it. For you information, in the Sorani-script, Kurd is written as ﺩﺭﻮﮐ and in the Kurmanji-script as Kurd. In the Turkish language, it is Kürt. Please either include all these, or remove the Arabic/Persian word. Heja Helweda 21:38, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
In the Kurdish, the first one, كوردﻯ /Kurdî, refers to the Kurdish language (and used as an adejective for Kurdish things , like Kurdish dance, folklore, language, etc.) and the second one كورد/Kurd refers to the ethnic group (a Kurdish person). Heja Helweda 22:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
No, Kurmanji is written in arabic script to. The Kurmanjis in Iraq,Syria, And Iran use Arabic Script. And please we are not 'Europeans' so please stop putting that on realted ethnic groups.
Hey all, you'll note I've made quite a drastic change to this section of the article. It was drastic because it needed to be drastic, feel free to chop/change the exact people that are included in this list, but please try and keep it below 15 people. If possible make them internationally renowned individuals (a google search count could help with this). Having >30 people in a list really sucks when there is already a page for List of Kurdish people. - FrancisTyers 01:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Its that time of year again... External links cull time!
If anyone disagrees, make it known here :) - FrancisTyers 22:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the link to kurdish media is relevant as it's probly the best news site about kurds and kurdish stuff over all the web... I don't see why a site with news about kurds isn't relevant in an article called "kurdish people"???
I'm also gonna add celal talabani and abdullah öcalan to the list of renowned kurdish individuals. the first is current president of iraq and second is leader of the kurds in turkey. if that's not renowned, what is :/ Soapy(reloaded) 22:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Main article: Kurdistan Workers Party The PKK is a formerly Marxist separatist group that until recently sought to create an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey and parts of neighboring countries inhabited by Kurds. (It’s known as the PKK after its Kurdish name, Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan.) During a rebellion that began in the mid-1980s and claimed some 35,000 lives, the group used guerrilla warfare, including kidnappings of foreign tourists in Turkey, suicide bombings ( exclusively against military targets ), and attacks on Turkish diplomatic offices in Europe. The PKK has also repeatedly attacked civilians who refuse to assist it. The organization was founded in 1973 by Abdullah Ocalan. He ruled the party until his capture in 1999 by Turkish special forces in Kenya, after taking refuge in the Greek embassy in Kenya. Ocalan remains imprisoned on an island (Imrali) near Istanbul.(see[14] )"
this looks like an exact copy of what's written in the link provided. do we have the right to use it? Soapy(reloaded) 22:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Its all wikipedia so yes. - FrancisTyers
no I meant the above paragraph is quite similar to what's written here :
http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/kurdistan_print.html
which is the link I was referring to.
for compareason :
"The PKK is a formerly Marxist separatist group that until recently sought to create an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey and parts of neighboring countries inhabited by Kurds. (It’s known as the PKK after its Kurdish name, Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan.) During a rebellion that began in the mid-1980s and claimed some 35,000 lives, the group used guerrilla warfare, including kidnappings of foreign tourists in Turkey, suicide bombings ( exclusively against military targets ), and attacks on Turkish diplomatic offices in Europe. The PKK has also repeatedly attacked civilians who refuse to assist it. The organization was founded in 1973 by Abdullah Ocalan. He ruled the party until his capture in 1999 by Turkish special forces in Kenya, after taking refuge in the Greek embassy in Kenya. Ocalan remains imprisoned on an island (Imrali) near Istanbul.(see[14] )"
"A Marxist separatist group that until recently sought to create an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey and parts of neighboring countries inhabited by Kurds. (It’s known as the PKK after its Kurdish name, Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan.) During a rebellion that began in the mid-1980s and claimed some 35,000 lives, the group used guerrilla warfare and terrorism, including kidnappings of foreign tourists in Turkey, suicide bombings, and attacks on Turkish diplomatic offices in Europe. The PKK has also repeatedly attacked civilians who refuse to assist it. "
the beginning and another sentence are exactly the same. Soapy(reloaded) 23:42, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
14 million kurds in Turkey!!!??? So where are them? These are only seperatist propagandas against Turkey without scientific results.There are 5,1 million original kurds in Turkey and 3,5 million people mixed kurds.Vandal numbers cant change the realities...
The Kurds are, an Iranian people (a classification that is more linguistic than 'ethnic' in the case of the Kurds) inhabiting a mountainous area of the Middle-East that includes parts of Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Syria as well as smaller sections of Armenia and Lebanon. Kurds speak the mostly mutually intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of languages.
Ranging anywhere from 27 to 28 million people, the Kurds comprise one of the largest ethnic groups without their own country in the world. For over a century, many Kurds have campaigned and fought for the right to 'self-determination' in an autonomous homeland known as "Kurdistan". The governments of those countries with sizable Kurdish populations are actively opposed to the possibility of a Kurdish state, believing such a development would require them to give up parts of their own national territories.
Firstly what means (a classification that is more linguistic than 'ethnic' in the case of the Kurds)
What makes Kurds to be more a linguistical classification as ethnical classification?
Therefor we look as first what Ethnic means: Ethnic
An ethnic group is a culture or subculture whose members are readily distinguishable by outsiders based on traits originating from a common racial, national, linguistic, or religious source.
Look at the Oxford dictionary: Ethnic: connected with or belongig to a nation, race or tribe that shares a cultural tradition
Thus the question is what are Kurds on their culture and race? Would we deny that Englishmen are cultural/racial Germanic? Or would we deny that Swedish or Norsk are Germanic in culture and race? The same for Germans. Thus why on Wikipedia we deny that Kurds are Iranians in culture and race?
About race: We read in Quitana-Murci et al study on maternal ancestry of Southwest Asian population's mtDNA that: Populations located west of the Indus basin, including those from Iran, Anatolia and the Caucasus, exhibit a common mtDNA lineage composition, consisting mainly of western Eurasian lineages, with a very limited contribution from South Asia and eastern Eurasia (fig. 1). Indeed, the different Iranian populations show a striking degree of homogeneity. This is revealed not only by the nonsignificant FST values and the PC plot (fig. 6) but also by the SAMOVA results, in which a significant genetic barrier separates populations west of Pakistan from those east and north of the Indus Valley (results not shown). These observations suggest either a common origin of modern Iranian populations and/or extensive levels of gene flow amongst them
This study show that modern Iranian populations(including Baloches, Persians, Kurds, Lurs, Pashtuns, Ossetians, Tajiks...) have a COMMON origin!
Thus what makes Kurds different from other Iranian people in their race?
All physical anthropologist classify Kurds as belonging to the Irano-Afghan race, as Persians, Pashtuns, Tajiks and all other Iranian speaking people belong to!
Kurds celebrate Norouz like all other Iranian people, we must classify them as an Iranian people by race, culture and language!
So how it comes that in Wikipedia there is written something else, and when I try to revert it, different users change it back?
Also I am against the classification of which belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of languages.
This classification is not a classification this is politics of some users here.
Is Russian classificated by his Superclass? Russian (Russian: русский язык, russkij jazyk, ['ru.skʲi jɪ.'zɨk] listen ▶ (help·info)) is the most widely spoken language of Europe and the most widespread of the Slavic languages.
NO, no where is there written that Russian is a Balto-Slavic language.
Or German? Is there written that German is a Balto-Germano-Slavic language? Why now pointing out that it is Indo-Iranian in the Kurdish case? As first it is an Iranian language which makes 4000 years differences up with the Indo-Aryan languages. Second if the visitor don't know what Iranian language is he can click on the article about Iranian languages.
I will change the information back, as long you bring me proofs that it isn't this way! -- ShapurAriani 19:24, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Shapur I see nothing wrong with article. what you say above has been already put in the article. Look at the Persian people article. There is also the same clasification as here.=> Indo-European, Iranian people.
Mesopotamia 20:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Because in an other article there is the same mistake you can not argument! Zhe Oxford dictionary says about Ethnic: Ethnic: connected with or belongig to a nation, race or tribe that shares a cultural tradition
Thus Indo-Europeans can not be a related ethnic group, because 1) Indo-European is not a nation, 2) Indo-European is not a race, 3) Indo-European is not a tribe, and 4) Indo-European doesn't shares cultural traditions Thus Indo-European can not be a related ethnic group, it is a linguistical classification. Btw. why you reverting all the article? This is untypical for working at Wikipedia. The next time befor you reverting anything, begin a discussion, not a refer on an other mistake and then change only the part which you disagree! -- ShapurAriani 20:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
My brother is genetican he claims that Kurds/Pashtuns/Tajiks/Persians are the nearest related group, even physicial anthroplogist provide this. Now this anti-Kurdish joke is spaming, because he knows that Kurds are Iranians, and he dislike this, because this doesn't fit in his world where Kurds are Turks. Thus I don't accept your suggetion, because the racial difference between Kurds/Persians/Pashtuns/Tajiks and other Iranians is so small, that we must see them as an own group beside the Arabic/Turkish/European world! -- ShapurAriani 13:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurds don't speak among themselves in a foreign tongue. What matters is how they are communicating with one another, not with their neighbors or the outside world. Otherwise English/Swedish/German/French should also be mentioned since hundreds of thousands of expat. Kurds are using those languages on a daily basis, but among themselves, they only use Kurdish. Heja Helweda 05:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
And it is quite obvious that German is the main working second tongue among expat. Kurdish community of half a million in Germany. The same is true for English/French/Swedish. Heja Helweda 06:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurdish is an Iranian language or a group of languages of the Iranian language family
Why you point out that the Iranian language family is of the superclass of Indo-Iranian languages and of the greater languagefamily of Indo-European languages! Is this the philosophy of Wikipedia? When there is an article there is no need to explain everyword. There is no need to explain what Iranian languages are or the Iranian language family is. There is a link, where everyone can click and read what it is. This is non-sense use of server space. This is why there is no need to explain what Iranian lagnuages are, the visitor can click on the link and read it. -- ShapurAriani 20:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
You just like to limit definition of the Kurds and their language to be an Iranian people, but since there is no problem on behalf of the sprace in wikipedia this sentence does not make any problem. I do not agree with your last edit. I am going to re-add that sentence. please do not remove info from the pages.
Mesopotamia 20:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
user:ShapurAriani claims that There are many Zoroastrian Kurds, there are even Kurdish translation of the Avesta, thus why you revert it? If again I will compain by the admin!). But he has no evidence for his claim. Of course translation of Avesta is not a proof, since Bible has also been translated into Kurdish, but that isnot a proof for Kurds being christian.
Heja Helweda 05:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
@Admin: Norooz is a zoroastrian festival, why Kurds celebrate it? Why Kurds have all the zoroastrian sagas? Why there are so many zoroastrian tempels in Kurdistan? Myself is a zoroastrian Kurd and this I can proof until 400 BC. My family is orginally from Sina/Kermanshah. Now this anti-Zoroastrian guy claims something which is not true and plays up the role of the Yezidis. I think he is Yezidi and this is why some Yezidi Kurds claim so much bullshit. They know that they are in fact a split of the original Zoroastrian faith. You can not set the christian Bible equal with the Avesta. The Avesta is specifiy and they translate it not by fun. Zoroastrianism is not a world religion, but they have translated the Avesta into the Kurdish language which is a proof. -- ShapurAriani 10:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Reverting because member of a terroristic Turksih organization is erasing facts! @Admin please check at discussion thx!
I do not care what the debate is about, but such incivility is not tollerated on wikipedia. Have a read of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA prior to making any edits on wikipedia please. If I do not see a gradual shift to civility here, I will take action. -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 11:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand the antagonism that resulted in leaving out the original intro sentence "The Kurds are an Iranian people..." or "The Kurds are an ethnic group of Iranian origin," etc. Kurds are widely accepted as being an Iranian people, and they are listed in the Iranian peoples article - so they are not just a group "related" to "Iranian peoples." It is needlessly politicizing an issue that goes beyond politics since "Iranian" in this context does not refer to the actual country but to an entire grouping of related ethnic groups that have common origins. At any rate, if it is to be left this way, that's perfectly fine, but I have removed the pointless bit about "middle-eastern" (in lowercase, at that) which is not only misleading but inaccurate. SouthernComfort 23:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I am self a Kurd, thus I know that we Kurds are ethnically Iranians and some of us even citizen of Iran. I think this is politic of anti-Iranians. They try to hide the true identity of us Kurds and our great past. Not more then politic. Fact is Kurds are an ethnic group of Iranian origin and thus an Iranian people. -- ShapurAriani 16:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
In wikipedia talk pages people easily change their ethnicity!
Since we Kurds are a middle-eastern ethnic group I do not agree with your challenge to ulta-Iranize the kurds. You so called pan -iranists even try to Iranize Turkish people in your beloved country. both a political and not scientific action.
Regarding the Kurds in the relevant paragraph in the article it has been mentioned that kurds have some similarities with Iranians.
Mesopotamia 17:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, as i explained for you above that wikipedia is not a soapbox. I am glad that you have learned it. Mesopotamia 00:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
It has been already put in the several places in the article (f.ex. infobox) that kurds are an Iranian ethnic group but it does not need in the first paragraph which will be somhow biased toward pro-iranianism. an encyclopedic paragraph beggins as:
People living in a landscape called Kurdistan, covering southeastern Turkey, northeastern Syria, northern Iraq, western Iran, Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Mesopotamia 19:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it just creates confusion. Iranian mostly refers to citizens of Iran. Therefore it does not apply to three quarters of Kurds who are citizens of Iraq, Turkey , Syria and Armenia. Officially, from the point of view of International Law, Kurds of those countries are not considered Iranian. So I suggest remove this term, because it is right in the beginning of the article and confuses everybody. However I am aware that those who are for the term Iranian, consider it as an ethnic/linguistic classification. Perhaps they should try to find a better term which does not mix with nationality. Heja Helweda 00:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
member of an ethnic and linguistic group living in the Taurus Mountains of eastern Anatolia, the Zagros Mountains of western Iran, northern Iraq, and adjacent areas. Most of the Kurds live in contiguous areas of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey, a region generally referred to as Kurdistan (“Land of the Kurds”). [1]
There is no reference to Iranian people. So I suggest removing this term, since it is confusing and credible, neutral sources (such as above) do not mention it. Heja Helweda 03:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
There has been no source given for the instance of including Iranian people as a definition of Kurds. Until a verified source can be found, please do not include it in the article. Joe I 04:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Joe I 04:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
As a Kurd I deny being ethnitically Iranian. I have never heard anywhere that kurds are ethnitically Iranian. Kurds are decendants of indigenious people of northern Mesopotamia and western Zagros than Iranian people; in other words Kurds are an amalgam of languistically Iranicized tribes, mainly autochthonous such as Kardu, some semitic, and, some Armenian.
Mesopotamia 12:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
THERE IS NO PURE RACE AND THAT IS THE FIRST THING YOU LEARN IN ANTHROPOLOGY, BUT THE KURDS ARE OF IRANIAN STOCK, SURE THEY MIXED WITH OTHER RACES BUT SO DID THE PERSIANS. BESIDES SCIENTIFIC PROOF THERE IS THE KURDS OWN TALES AND HISTORICAL STORIES OF ORIGIN THAT SUPPORT THEIR IRANIAN IDENTITY. THE PROBLEM TODAY IS KURDS ARE THE VICTIMS OF COLONALISM AND IMPERIALIST POLICIES. WHEN THEY WERE DIVIDED FROM OTHER KURDS AND IRANIANS THEY WERE LEFT IN SUSPENTION OF THEIR IDENTITY. ALL THAT THEY KNEW IS THAT THEY WERE KURDS. ONE MAJOR PROBLEM IS THAT KURDS OUTSIDE OF IRAN THINK THAT THE TERM IRANIAN MEANS PERSIAN OR IS A NATIONAL TERM LIKE IRAQI AND SYRIAN. IN REALITY IRANIAN IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT HAS ALSO BEEN USED TO DENOTE A NATION, IN THIS CASE IRAN, WHERE THIS GROUP DOMINATES. IT IS THE SAME FOOTING AS YUGOSLAVIAN WHICH WAS A NATIONALITY BUT MENT 'SOUTHERN SLAV' WHICH ALSO INCLUDED BULGARIANS EVEN THOUGH BULGARIANS WERE NOT A PART OF YUGOSLAVIA. I AM AFRAID THAT PRESENTLY POLITICS IS VICTIMIZING THIS ACADEMIC SUBJECT WERE AS STATES LIKE ISRAEL AND THE USA ARE SUPPORTING THE DISASSOCATION OF KURDS FROM IRANIAN OR ANYTHING OF THE LIKE AND OMMITING CONVERSATIONS ON THE SUBJECT IN ACADEMIC CIRCLES.
The sources at the end of the Iranian peoples article.
http://www.parstimes.com/Iranians.html This is obviously not academic.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90019 This one is credible but it just talks about Iranian Language Group not Iranian people.
http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9368164 This one is also just about language not ethnicity.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/iranian_languages.htm This is also only language.
http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/iranian-peoples_articles.htm This is the one that is supposed to talk about Iranian peoples. It has a section for Kurd, but it refers to some other articles as follows:
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Kurds/kurdish_tribes.htm This does not mention anything about Kurds being Iranian people. It just says Kurdish tribes are found throughout Iranian world including Iran proper, eastern Anatolia and northern Iraq. But it does not explain what does it mean by the Iranian world. I guess the region in which Iranian languages are spoken.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Kurds/milan.htm This one does not mention the term Iranian.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Kurds/hamavand.htm
This one is interesting, because it makes the problem even more clear. It says : An Iranian stock of Kurdish tribe of northeastern Mesopotamia which has been described as "the most celebrated fighting Kudish tribe" (Edmonds, pp. 39-40). The Hamâvand reportedly moved from the Kermânšâh in mainland Iran, to the Bâz-yân district, between Kerkuk and Solaymâniya, early in the 18th century.
The tribe is originally from Kermanshah inside Iran, so probably he means a tribe which was originally hailed from the Iranian territory, and that's why it calls the tribe as being Iranian.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/40813.html This one is the most credible in the genetic study of the population of Middle East/Central Asia. But Its sample just contains Iranian Kurds not Iraqi Kurds or Kurds of Turkey. This article has never used the term Iranian peoples, just neutral terms like Iranian plateau or Iranian populations(people who live inside Iran). Also it does not prove anything like Kurds being racially Iranian people as intended in the article Iranian peoples. Please remove the reference to Kurds, or just say Iranian Kurds.
For the geographic grouping, we divided populations into four regions: the Anatolian/Caucasus region (Anatolians and Caucasus populations), the Iranian plateau (Persians, Iranian Turks, Lurs, Iranian Kurds, Mazandarans, and Gilaks), the Indus Valley (Baluchi, Brahui, Parsi, Sindhi, Pakistani-Karachi, Pathans, Makrani, Hazara, and Gujarat) and Central Asia (Uzbeks, Turkmen, Kurds from Turkmenistan, Shugnan, Hunza Burusho, and Kalash). Heja Helweda 19:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I hope the following paper will clarify the issue.
Genetic distance comparisons have revealed that the Turkic and Turkoman speaking peoples in the Caspian area cluster with the Kurds, Greeks and Iranis. The Persian speakers are genetically remote from these populations; they are, however, close to the Parsis who migrated from Iran to India at the end of the Seventh Century A.D. [2]
This basically says that Kurds/Turks are far from Persians genetically speaking. Iranian is just a language classification.
Heja Helweda 01:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
YOUR SOURCE IS WRONG AND QUESTIONABLE IN ORIGIN
Kurds and Persians have been show to be very similar in the most up to date studies.
There is a lot of games being played here. Kurds and Persians are both Aryan peoples of the Indo-European family. All Kurds are taught that they are Aryans unlike the Arabs and Turks from when they are kids. As for the claim that Jews and Kurds are the same I think that has to do with Israeli plans for control of Kurdistan, Iraq, and Iran.
There are a lot of sources regarding Kurds are not ethnitcically an Iranian people.
The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews
D iyako Talk + 12:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
This is absolute bullshit. I know a lot about genetics, and the Kurds are very different from Jews. Sure there are some boundaries between Jews and all Iranians, this is due they are all Near Easterns. But is this a suprise or any kind of prove for your stupid theory Mesopotamia? You listen more like a non-Kurd, who is trying to tell bullshit about us Kurds. I think you are a Turk who want to claim Kurds are Turks. This is my opinion! -- ShapurAriani 13:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
It looks even kurds dont like jews.But i think they should love them.They are training PKK terrorists in north iraq after all...
-Inanna-
Once again, if you care to make a statement such as that, I dont suppose you would have any evidence to support it would you? Unbased allegations lead nowhere and just hinder productivity. Please read WP:WWIN ( More specifically here) and WP:POINT.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 03:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point something out. There are genetic similarities between certain Jewish groups and Iranian peoples that is because those 'groups' within the Jewish population are Iranian Jews, either Tats, or Persian Jews or Kurdish Jews. Jewish people are not an ethnic group they are a faith or religious group. There are Jews from many gene pools and various races. There are Negroid Jews from Africa and Dravidian Jews from southern India. One of the largest populations to have Jews is that of the Iranian peoples. In fact the state of Iran has the second largest Jewish population in the Middle East after Israel. The similarity of these people, Jews and Kurds in particular is due to shared Iranian genes among a few other minor ones. There is an article about Kurdish Jews and Persian Jews. It is called the "Children of Queen Ester." Ester was the Empress or Queen of Iran and wife of Emperor Xerxes who fought the Athenians and Spartans in what classical scholars refer to as the Persian Wars. A large portion of Israelis are Iranian Jews like Israel's head of state, Moshe Katsav [3] who is from Yazd, Iran and the current Israeli defence minister.
The genetic similarities that are greatest between Kurds and Jews are with the group of Jews that are Iranian or what is termed as 'Iranic' in origin such as Persian Jews and Kurdish Jews and Tats. One will find that Jews that are from Arabic countries are very similar to Arabs and that Jews from Europe are very similar genetically to the Europeans.
Mind you there is in most Jews a hint or trace of that unique Hebrew gene of their Semitic ancestors, but it is not the dominant genetic make up. The genes of the nations the Jews settled in are what are dominant in their genetic makeup. A Russian Jew is ethnically a Russian while an Iranian Jew is ethnically an Iranian. European Jews are in fact not Semitic, as opposed to Arab Jews who are Semitic. Semitic peoples are tanned and dark haired people, while many European Jews are fair and resemble the native European population. I hope you follow.
Genetically and hereditarily the most similar people to the Kurds are the Lur and Bakhtiaris , which are both Iranian peoples, followed by the Persians. To say that Kurds and other Iranian peoples are dissimilar is exceedingly incorrect. The Kurds are definitely and inarguably a part of the Iranian genetic group as are Lurs, Persian, and Ossetians.
The article that is basically claiming that Kurds are closer to Jewish populations than Iranians is incoherent and should be deleted because it is taken out of context and is from a non-primary and constricted source that has been widely disagreed with by the scientific community.
The history section is somewhat misleading. It describes the "Hurrian phase" of Kurdish history (which alone seems a bit odd, since the Kurds per se didn't exist then) and lists the names of Hurrian groups, including the Hittites.
It then states that Indo-European speakers moved into the region later, and lists a number of Indo-Aryan groups (the Medes, Mitanni, and Scythians). But the Hittites were themselves Indo-European speakers, which is nowhere stated. -- Saforrest 08:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Hittites had come from behind of caucaissia(central asia).The early Turks in this period didnt have a developed language and they had taken the language of indo-european tribes in caucaussia while they are coming.Kurds are indo-iranian people.
-Inanna-
First of all the Kurdish flag is allowed in Iran, but is not sanctioned publicly. Kurds have it in their homes and are allowed to have them. It is certainly not criminal in Iran for Kurds to have the Kurdish flag or symbol as many of my friends do. So edit your statement about it being criminal in Iran. Need I remind you all, that Kurds are ethnic Iranians and have historically enjoyed the greatest liberties in Iran as opposed to the mainstream discrimination Kurds face in Syria, Iraq, and Turkey? It is usually Israeli sources, with increasing American and British help and aid, that intentionally falsely claim that the Kurdish flag (which fly the Pan-Iranian colours as does the unofficial flag of the Azerbaijani people and the flag of Tajikistan) is prohibited in Iran. FLYING THE KURDISH FLAG IN IRAN IS NOT CRIMINAL AS IT IS MENTIONED BY ISRAELI SOURCES.
Furthermore, I go on to read that there was research done that basically proves Kurds and Jews are genetically the same. It seems to me that certain individuals who I can see are Israeli are following the Israeli states policy of editing articles in lines with current events in the Middle East. Kurds are Iranians just as how Russians, Serbs, Poles, and Bulgarians are all Slavic peoples. Israel, the USA, and Britain are trying to create conflict in Iran, Kurdistan, and the Middle East as was done in the former Yugoslavia by creating problems along ethnic lines. This is called ‘balkanisation.’ The Israelis are doing this covertly through operations in Iraqi Kurdistan.
Propaganda for dividing and conquering people starts with definitions then the manipulation of history. I am an academic in the fields of anthropology and history and an Iranian from a minority group that is neither Persian nor Kurdish. I can tell you that Kurds are definitely ethnic Iranians in all senses from tradition to language, history, culture, identity, and genetics. I am alarmed by the current purging of internet articles that have hidden agendas trying to separate the Iranian identity of Kurds.
As I was told by a Kurdish professor, Mr. Eskandari in Tehran: “Kurds are Iranian and the entity of Iran as a state and nation was founded by the [main] ancestors of the Kurds, the Mede who established Iran as an empire. One problem that has compounded the issue is that people misuse the term Persian and Iranian. Persians are Iranian, but all Iranians, like the Kurds and Ossetians, are not Persians.”
The Mede and other similar Iranian groups are the ancestors of the Kurds, but not the only group, just like how the ancient Persians are the main ancestors of the modern Persians, but not the only ancestors. Ancestors of Persians and Kurds also include Arabs, Mongols, and other Iranian peoples.
I ask all the honest people on this site who wish to enhance knowledge not to take part in this fabrication of fact. There was a time when the Turkish government tried to convince Kurds that they were “Mountain Turks” and now there are powers at play that are either trying to disassociate the Kurds from their Iranian identity and origins or make whole generations of proud young Kurds forget or be unaware of their Iranian ethnicity. This is due to geo-strategic schemes. These forces are trying to victimize a whole group of people from knowing their own proud history and culture which is genuinely Iranian. The covert foreign policy of Israel, Britain, and America comes at the expense of the Kurds and even their history and culture.
“THE ENEMIES OF SCIENCE, THE ARTS, AND KNOWLEDGE ARE THE ENEMIES OF ALL MANKIND!”
Wikipedia is an ensyclopedia not a forum. Kurdish flag is banned in Iran; Flying it causes THREE years inprisonment. Even as far as I know it is not based on your Pan-Iranistic flag! Instead of accusing other people think of citing neutral sources. Mesopotamia 00:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I am neutral it seems that you are the one that is trying to promote an idea or cause while at the same time repressing the truth. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO FLY THE KURDISH FLAG IN IRAN OR TO SPEAK KURDISH OR TO LEARN IN KURDISH. YOU HAVE SAID IT IS CRIMINAL TO FLY THE KURDISH FLAG IN IRAN. IT IS BANNED PUBLICALLY BUT IS NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENCE.
ALL YOU NEED TO DO BUDDY IS GO TO "THE UNIVERSITY OF KURDISTAN'S WEB SITE." YES, THE "UNIVERSITY OF KURDISTAN" IN "IRAN" ALSO CALLED "UOK."
THE IRANIAN STATE IS AN "IRANIAN" NATION WHICH MEANS ALL IRANIAN PEOPLES, NOT JUST PERSIANS THAT IS WHY IRAN FREELY RECOGNIZES KURDISTAN AND HAS A PROVINCE NAMED KURDISTAN AND UNIVERSITIES WITH THE TITLE KURDISTAN AND ALLOWS KURDISH TO BE TAUGHT AND HAS PUBLIC, KURDISH BROADCASTING!
The Kurdish flag was from the Mahhabad Republic in Iran and formed by Kurds living within Iran. It is an inverse of the Pan-Iranian colours. It even has the Sun that is so important to all Iranian peoples and their calender and festavals such as Noruz. Noruz is the official New Year in Iran and celebrated by all Iranian peoples. The Sun was also on the Iranian flag along with a lion and sword before 1979. The use of the Sun was of great importance to the Ancient Aryan ancestors of the Kurds who were Zoroastrians. Zoroastrain faith was the state faith of Ancient Iran.
WHO WROTE THAT KURDISH IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL IN IRAN? THAT IS UNTRUE? THIS IS NOT A FORUM OF PROPGANDA!!! Kurdish is freely taught in schools in Iran and all that one has to do is go on to the Iranian governments websites on education and see. Also please note services on some of these websites are offered in Kurdish by the Iranian government! So how is Kurdish not allowed to be talked or spoken in Iran???? Who is writting this propaganda about Iran and Kurdistan?
According to section 15 of the Iranian Constitution (after the 1979 Iranian Revolution), Kurdish education next to teaching Persian is a right of the Iranian people. Before the Iranian Revolution of 1979, Kurdish was allowed to be taught in Iranian universities such as in Tabriz University in Northern Iran.
The University of Kurdistan (OUK) in Sinne or Sanandaj, Iran has one of the worldest best Kurdish language and literature programs [4].
Thank you for not screaming and for not making accusations. Wikipedia is free-edit wiki and the best thing to do is simply correct these innacuracies through the editing process.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 01:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, user 69.196.139.250, me too appreciate your writing personal POVs here than push it in the article. Mesopotamia 02:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Mesopotamia has made more than 3 reverts and should be blocked! Admins please check!
Mesopotamia 11:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Beside vandalising cited info from the page you are wasting your time. There is NO neutral source in this planet to support your childish claims. On the other hand there are thousands (if not milions or miliards) neutral and credible sources opposing your too childish claims. Maby you think Kurdish people are so forgotten among western midia that you can easily lie in the English wikipedia?!!! Or maybe you want us to mention all of those unjustifies against Kurdish people in Iran, do you? Ok. I myself will try mention and more more wildness of Iranians against this minority in Kurds own Homeland.
Ageh behetoon barnakhore darin waqte khodetoono talaf mikonin! Mesopotamia 11:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Lastly what is most important of all is what the Kurds of Iran say themselves and they will all disagree with you and your ignorant remarks. The Kurds in Iran are treated well. How many Kurds from Iran must tell you this. I see you argued with all the people who have rational statements like the fact that Kurds are an Iranian ethnic group! You have no credibility.
Mesopotamia 18:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurdish is taught in many universities in many countries in Europe in russia in etc...
as well as in Iran but children are not not not not alloed to use it to use it to use it hali mishid..!!!!!!!!
Mesopotamia
18:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
GO ask an Kurd from Iranian your source is wrong! I come from there I know! They will tell you that they learned Kurdish. You are spreading POVs. Look just cause Kurds were treated badly in Iraq and Turkey does not mean they were in Iran.
Mr Daneshmand my sources are from Human Rights Watch, Human Rights First UN, credible News aggencies..... You claim they are wrong is your own problem!! Mesopotamia 18:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I was in hurry and after puting that went out. Now read this: Iran's religious and ethnic minorities remained subject to discrimination and persecution. Representatives of the predominantly Sunni Muslim Kurdish minority protested the appointment of a new governor of Kurdistan province from the Shi'a majority. The authorities overlooked Sunni candidates for the post put forward by Kurdish parliamentarians. The lack of public school education in Kurdish language remained a perennial source of Kurdish frustration Mesopotamia 18:34, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
That governor was a Shia Kurd. Kermanshah's is also a Kurdish province and there is no problems there due to the fact that almost all the Kurds there are Shias. I do agree with you there are problmes in relations to preferance for Shia candidates, but there are many Kurds in Parliament in Tehran and they have equal represntation. Kurdish is taught in Iranian schools but not the public boards of education it is in the alternative 'Azzad boards of Education' which have tutition.
Anyway Kurds are oppressed in iran and we cannot deby this. Mesopotamia 18:52, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Armenian genocide is another matter, Kurdish king, kurdish X kurdish Y Kurdsish Y, Here this article is about kurdish people and this fact that what is doing on them. Here is not a forum or a paltak room. If you like paltak rooms i can introduce you some but here if you have a neutral and credible source like my sources you can provide otherwise shoma be kheyr o ma be salamat. and do not waste your and my time. if you still are interested to discuss the kurdish question in Iran you can contact me on yahoo messenger. Mesopotamia 19:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
You! Because:
A+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J+K is NOT same as: E Mesopotamia 19:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
What does it matter. Khamenei is Azeri but Azeri people are still oppressed in Iran as well as Kurds. You cannot lie for the world. It is 2006! Mesopotamia 19:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
So you mean Kurdish language is not banned from teaching Islamic Republic of Iran!!!!
Mesopotamia
19:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I mean Kurdish children. Mesopotamia 19:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Go read Kurdistan Observer and what it says. It is fair and tries to be unbaised and talks to regular Kurds. It still is pushes towards seperation, but at least it does not totally hide scientific facts and everyday truths.
READ THIS ALL IT RIGHTEN BY AN ORGANIZATION THAT WANTS TO ADVANCE KURDS. IT GOES AGAINST WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. YOU ARE CLEARLY BIASED YOU EDIT THE TERM THAT KURDS ARE AN ETHNIC IRANIAN GROUP WHICH IS A FACT.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~konews/23-11-02-kurds-iran-cling-homeland.html
http://home.cogeco.ca/~konews/23-11-02-kurds-iran-cling-homeland.html While Iraqi Kurds map out post-Saddam Hussain scenario that they expect following U.S.-led campaign to overthrow him, their counterparts in northwestern Iran cling to their motherland. As the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), which have been ruling two-thirds of Iraq's Kurdish region for 11 years, implicitly fan the flame of separatism, Iranian Kurds accentuate their Iranian origins and assure that "we are more Iranian than Iranians." Asadollah Darvish Amiri, Deputy General Governor of the province for security affairs, said: "Kurds are the purest Iranian in this country and they are first Iranian and then Kurd. So they have never intended to separate from Iran." Abdolmomen Mardokh, a political activist and the head of political parties in the western Province of Kurdistan, said: "Many times we get accused of trying to create a Kurdish state or separate from Iran. However, we want a situation in which the Kurds can live as first-class citizens and as full partners to other Iranians in the government." Despite their division on a number of issues, Iranian Kurds seem to be united in their vision of the future. They look at incidents in Iraq as a pattern for their destiny, not a plan that can be practically implemented to change Iran's political system or lead to federalism in Iran's political structure. Tehran, despite its recent warming up of diplomatic relations with its neighbours, says "it never put all its eggs in Saddam's basket, and is spending its honeymoon with two major anti-Saddam parties KDP and PUK." Jalal Talibani, Chief of PUK, recently visited Tehran and promised to curb Iran's arch-foe Komoleh party, which is now in Talibani's territory in Soleymaniah, north of Iraq. Talibani plays a key role alongside Massoud Barzani, head of KDP, in the Iraqi Kurdistan, and their role is expected to grow bigger in the post-Saddam era. Iranian Kurds say they can breathe more easily in their relations with their Iraqi counterparts for they have informal trading relations with Iraq's Kurdistan. Moreover, Iranian contractors are dealing with reconstruction of the Iraqi Kurd cities. In the case of a U.S. attack on Iraq, Iran's Kurdistan border can also be a haven to accommodate a huge influx of refugees. "They are our Muslim brethren. Why shouldn't we help them? Some of us are married to Iraqi Kurdish women, and some women from our province are married to men over there. You can say that we are members of the same family," said Ahmad, 24, an educated unemployed young man. When President Mohammed Khatami took office in 1997, he created a liberal atmosphere for Iran's Sunni Kurds by appointing a Abdollah Ramezanzadeh, a Kurd, as General Governor. Although three dissidents have been executed recently in the Kurdish area of western Azerbaijan, Kurds are now free enough to criticise the central government on issues related Kurdistan. "This is the very first time in our contemporary political history that we are articulating our vision for what we want," said Mardokh, comparing the current situation with a decade ago. "Kurdish rights can be realised within the framework of a state under the full control of central government like that in the U.S.," he said. Iranian Kurds, however, say they are unhappy with the fact that the "government does not employ us in high-ranking positions. President Khatami tried to calm them down by appointing Kurds in senior positions in his government. However, Kurds believe that the moderate pro-reform President "didn't keep his words in employing many Kurds even in their own province."Amiri said that they have selected Kurds for top administrative positions in the province as much as they could. "Some four governors out of nine and some 320 top administrators out of 400 in the province are Kurds." Khatami's popularity has fallen among Kurds in recent years. He got less than 50 per cent of the votes in Kurdistan in presidential election last year, while he gained more than 70 per cent in the presidential election in 1997. Unemployment also adds fuel to the fire of people's unease regarding political incidents while they keep their eyes open to what is going on in Iraq. While Iraqi Kurds are waiting for an American-led attack to share more power with next Iraqi government, Iranian Kurds are trying to be a full partners of power in central the government.]]
):- It's not related to topic. it is a political POV!!
Mesopotamia 19:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
That is a Kurdish source from outside Iran which is neurtral. FIrstly is shows you the Kurds demands in Iran and shows that they are treated well and it also shows you that they have power. So like I said don't think cause you are a Kurd that you are an authority to speak about Kurds in Iran. With your propaganda. You have been proven to be biased and have no credit. As your conversations with other memebers show.
Why is it that when an article is added about Zoroastrian Kurds it is deleted? Zoroastrianism was the original religion of the Kurds. It is part of the legacy of Kurdish culture along with Noruz. Why is the fact that the Kurds ancestors where Zoroastrians being covered up? What does it expose?
Ethnically close to the Iranians, the Kurds were traditionally nomadic herders but are now mostly seminomadic or sedentary. The majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims. Kurdish dialects belong to the northwestern branch of the Iranian languages. The Kurds have traditionally resisted subjugation by other nations. Despite their lack of political unity throughout history, the Kurds, as individuals and in small groups, have had a lasting impact on developments in SW Asia. Saladin, who gained fame during the Crusades, is perhaps the most famous of all Kurds.
Columbia encyclopedia clearly states ethnically close to Iranians. SouthernComfort 00:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
BTW, Columbia is a neutral, and very credible source, so I can't see how anyone can dispute it. I will also gather academic sources when I have time, all of which will back up Columbia on this. SouthernComfort 00:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Culturally and historically, Kurds are not related to Iranians. Their religion differ from Iranians. Genetically they differ from Iranians. 1 similarity, 4 difference! Mesopotamia 17:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the genetic study you mention is far too limited to encapsulate the entire Kurdish peoples. How can you generalize your own people in this way? We are all diverse, but we share a common heritage. Academic, scholarly sources all back this up, and they don't have to rely on "genetic" studies to prove anything, because this heritage is not tied down to racial issues. SouthernComfort 01:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
The sources provided in the article clearly point out a close ethnic bond between Kurds and Jews. Please note that The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It's important to note that "verifiability" in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability Heja Helweda 02:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
This article has been protected to stop a reversion war. Please see the dispute resolution process; if you disagree with the protection of this article, please contact me or see Requests for page protection. Note that disagreement amongst editors is the reason the article is protected, and should not be used as an argument for unprotection. // Pathoschild ( admin / talk) 04:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
In the light of the evidence put forward by both sides, I suggest include both terms Iranian people and Jewish people in the Related Ethnic Groups section of the Table. Heja Helweda 04:16, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
You are advocating somethiing that is outside of the widely accepted definitions. What you are doing is wrong and you have proven yourself not to be a neutral person. You have seperatist motives which are biased and have no place here.
Please disambiguate genetic to genetics - cohesion★ talk 09:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Culturally, historically, religiously and genetically Kurds differ from Iranians. 1 similarity, 4 difference!
So regarding variant sources we cannot summarize Kurds ethnicity in one word. You should not ignore all other sources just calling them Iranian. Calling them Iranian means rewriting history. But off course you can cite your sources in the related section historic roots in the article.
This is the most logic solution. If we all accept this so the problem is gone. But if not, then unfortunately the edit war continues...
Mesopotamia 18:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
آدمی کهر هنوز عرضه نداره اراجیفش را امضاکند
No Kurds are not an iranian people. even they are ashamed to call them Iranian. maybe you do not know that this year is 2006, 14 centuries has been passed. They see iranians as unwelcome agressive people who occupied their homeland. kurds have faced other groups who influnced them more than Iranians.
Do not forget that kurds even originally were not Iranians. Mesopotamia 19:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Key point that most people are missing here. Iranian is a nationality more than an ethnicity. Persian is more or less the ethnicity. Under this definition, most Kurds would be considerable as Iranians, although they may not always be referred to as such.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 02:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kurds/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
* Very through coverage of topic; an impressive number of references. The references, however, are improperly formatted. They should be formatted such that the full details of every reference appears in a readable manner in the references section (as opposed to simply a set of square brackets with a number inside, e.g. [35]). See
Taiwanese aborigines for some examples of fully formatted <ref> tags.
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Last edited at 13:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 20:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)