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The article states, "Through sympathetic elected officials, the KKK controlled the governments of Tennessee, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Oregon in addition to those of the Southern Democratic legislatures." I've seen detailed discussions of how Indiana's state government was controlled, for a time, from top to bottom by the Klan. However, the last clause, about "Southern Democratic legislatures," seems way too vague, and I have a hard time believing it. Also, the whole sentence doesn't state the time frames. For instance, IIRC their control of the Indiana state government only lasted for a few years. Can anyone provide more detailed information, and improve the accuracy of this sentence?-- Bcrowell 17:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
The following statements are simply untrue. The Klan was extremely powerful in rural South Carolina AFTER it was supposedly destroyed according to the statements below.
The first Klan was destroyed by President Ulysses S. Grant's vigorous action under the 1871 Klan Act and Enforcement Act.
In 1871 President Ulysses S. Grant signed The Klan Act and Enforcement Act. The Klan became an illegal group, and the use of force was authorized to suppress and disrupt the organization's activities. Hundreds of Klan members were fined or imprisoned, and habeas corpus was suspended in some counties in South Carolina. These efforts were so successful that the Klan was eliminated in South Carolina and decimated throughout the rest of the country. The Klan Act was declared unconstitutional in 1882, but the Klan was largely gone by then, and had in fact achieved many of its original goals, such as denying political rights to blacks.
I'm reverting Pollinator's edits that changed "destroyed" to "driven underground." This part of the article is now extremely thoroughly footnoted, from multiple print sources. Despite my repeated requests, Pollinator has not come forward with any verifiable information to the contrary.-- Bcrowell 02:05, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Reverting Pollinator's latest edits. Pollinator, please provide some print sources for your assertions. Also, see below under "between the klans."-- Bcrowell
Basically I would say that the 'First KKK' ended with its disbanding by the Grand Wizard, General Nathan Bedford Forrest, in 1869. The Enforcement Acts of the 1870's didn't cripple the party it only immoblised the already shattered entity. The Acts only served to shine light on the racist parties diminished presence.
As part of my revert of Pollinator's edits about the end of the first Klan, I've also deleted the following text about the period between the first and second klans:
The part about Hydra doesn't seem accurate to me, based on Wade and Horn. I'm not convinced that Ben Tillman is particularly important or relevant here. The historiography stuff about Mary Simms Oliphant and William Bodie is interesting, but IMO not particularly relevant here. Maybe it would be a good idea to start a section on historical perceptions of the first and second klans?-- Bcrowell
There have been some reverts and re-reverts of some material about Byrd. I think this may have somehow gotten tangled up with the issue of end of the first Klan. I've asked Brownman40 and Jpgordon to discuss these issues here. Participation on the talk page from Pollinator would also be welcome.-- Bcrowell 05:14, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
However, he either led or supported failed attempts to scuttle the nominations of Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas, the first and second black Supreme Court justices, Condoleezza Rice, the first black female Secretary of State, and Janice Rogers Brown, a black appellate judge.
I believe this text is appropriate, considering the quote that Byrd said joining the Klan is his biggest mistake. If that quote wasn't there, I would agree that text is POV, but in light of that quote this text neutralizes the point of view. And though it is not provable, I believe Sen. Byrd's opposition to the only two black Supreme Court Justices of differing political backgrounds is germane. Brownman40 23:57, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Since the indentation level is getting awfully deep, I'm coming back over to the left. Jpgordon's argument that it's off-topic makes some sense to me. There's been sort of a similar issue with the Truman stuff, where all the (extremely complicated) info about his flirtation with the Klan is in the Klan article --- it used to be duplicated in the main Truman article, but that got silly. There does need to be some sane split between what goes in this article and what goes in the Byrd article. Karefan0, I disagree with your argument that it's NPOV as currently written, and I think you're misunderstanding me if you think I was arguing that we should be leaving "biased information intact in one article and then counting on someone to click on another article to balance it out." My argument was that it was NPOV and true, and that the Byrd article supported it. In any case, it's a little weird that the three of us are getting into such a long debate about this, while Brownman40, who started the whole controversy, has only posted once and then gone away. I don't really care about the issue that much myself, but I wanted to get Brownman40 to discuss it here. If he doesn't care enough to stay involved in the debate, and I don't care that much either, then it seems fine to me if Jpgordon or Katefan0 wants to get rid of the contested text in the section on Byrd. It was just a bad situation to have a revert war going on between Brownman and Jpgordon, without any debate on the talk page.-- Bcrowell 16:02, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
132.241.41.181, could you discuss your edits here? Re the Truman stuff, Truman's friendship with Jacobson wouldn't disqualify him from Klan membership, although it might have created some cognitive dissonance.-- Bcrowell 22:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
132.241.41.181 added the URL http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050710/NEWS01/507100360/1056/rss02 to the text of the article. 132.241.41.181, please use the talk page -- that material was already footnoted, and if you think this reference adds useful information, it belongs in the footnote, not in the text.-- Bcrowell 22:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking of self-nominating this to be a featured article. Comments? Is it ready?-- Bcrowell 22:56, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
28 Days (film) is a film showing negatively the KKK. Maybe it should be included in the article. CG 07:51, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
In 1980 Ronold Reagan made a speach in Philidelphia Mississippi declareing the utost importance of states rights. Andrew Young pointed out the insensitivity of Reagan's making such a speach at the sight of the most infamous tripple murder the Klan ever commited.
Soon afterwards Klan Wizard Wilkinson endorced Reagan saying "The Republican platform reads as if a Klanmen had written it."
Wilkinson especialy like Reagan's lukewarn stance on afermitive action.
Reagan regected this endorsement. Weeks after it had been made.
"The Firey Cross" page 387
That same year on september 1st Reagan claimed Jimmy Carter chose to open his campain in Tuscumbia Alabama because it "gave birth and is the parent body of the Klu Klux Klan" a lie that Reagan never gave a sincer apology for but used it when confronted with facts to further slander Jimmy Carter.
Soon after Regans lie Wilkinson went one step further and he argued The fact the Klan had been injected into the campain proved "the ideals of the Klan" had risen to high levels. "It's risen to such a high level that the GOP platform parallels our views almost one-hundred percent across the board"
"The Firey Cross" page 388
In 1985 when Reagan was denied millitary support for the contras in Nicuraga Klansmen rallied to his side. Don Black announced that he had created a 120 man Klan Unit called "The Nathanian Beford Forrest Brigade" with the intention of aiding the contras. Black said the brigade would engage in psychological warfare in Nicuraga to foster anti-government seniment and would provde "a civi action unit to promote a stable economy" The Klan felt that they were acting with Regan's blessing because he had said in October that "traditional" for American volunteers to take such actions in other countries.
"The Firey Cross" page 398
In 1980 Ronold Reagan made a speach in Philidelphia Mississippi declareing the utost importance of states rights. Andrew Young pointed out the insensitivity of Reagan's making such a speach at the sight of the most infamous tripple murder the Klan ever commited.
Soon afterwards Klan Wizard Wilkinson endorced Reagan saying "The Republican platform reads as if a Klanmen had written it."
Wilkinson especialy like Reagan's lukewarn stance on afermitive action.
Reagan regected this endorsement. A long time after it had been made.
"The Fiery Cross" page 387
That same year on september 1st Reagan claimed Jimmy Carter chose to open his campain in Tuscumbia Alabama because it "gave birth and is the parent body of the Klu Klux Klan" a lie that Reagan never gave a sincer apology for but used it when confronted with facts to further slander Jimmy Carter.
Soon after Regans lie Wilkinson went one step further and he argued The fact the Klan had been injected into the campain proved "the ideals of the Klan" had risen to high levels. "It's risen to such a high level that the GOP platform parallels our views almost one-hundred percent across the board"
"The Fiery Cross" page 388
In 1985 when Reagan was denied millitary support for the contras in Nicuraga Klansmen rallied to his side. Don Black announced that he had created a 120 man Klan Unit called "The Nathanian Beford Forrest Brigade" with the intention of aiding the contras. Black said the brigade would engage in psychological warfare in Nicuraga to foster anti-government seniment and would provde "a civi action unit to promote a stable economy" The Klan felt that they were acting with Regan's blessing because he had said in October that "traditional" for American volunteers to take such actions in other countries.
"The Fiery Cross" page 398
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/features/woody/woodyNatural.htm
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/features/woody/woodyNatural.htm
An anon has been doing the following edit and getting reverted by me and Andrew pmk:
The italics are the text the anon has been adding. I don't have Thompson's book checked out of the library right now, so I can't verify this, but in any case, I don't understand why it would be notable. Anon, could you explain?-- Bcrowell 04:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
maybe he's trying to figure out if Bill's statments about Reagan were truely his opinion or done at the direction of the FBI.
they have been a political and religious group in the past not just a fraternal group.
I feel sorry for those who censor this fact.
Materials from this (KKK) article should be merged into TOKKK as needed and the section here (KKK) should be reduced to a brief summary (not my interest, so I leave it to others). Leonard G. 15:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
"Afterward, the President appreciatively gave members of the team War Department license tags that allowed them to run red lights all across the nation."
wouldn't there be records of this?
I feel we should split this article because it's gotten way to big.
I aprecreate your idea of a "Notable Ku Klux Klan members in U.S. politics" but we are talking about a secret society and who was at it's boldest in it's infancy thus we would see a political slant if we did this.
I advocate the system I tried to state inwhich there is the main artical and three linking articals one for each of the Klans.
Long as it keeps to the National level its cool.
We got some good comments in peer review. I'm nominating this to be a featured article now.-- Bcrowell 22:59, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I've deleted this section. It only had one sentence in it ("The Ku Klux Klan is a common reference point for extremism in the arts. It has been featured in British musical theatre, in Jerry Springer - The Opera."), and in the past had acted as a magnet for trivia about movies that just happened to have something about the Klan in them. People had complained that it was weird that it was a single sentence, and in the FA discussion, there was a complaint about the section as well.-- Bcrowell 17:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
"Don't be fooled. Farly is ROOSEVELT: Tammany Hall. Catholic controled is ROOSEVELT....EVERY PROMINANT ROMAN CATHOLIC YOU CAN FIND IS FOR ROOSEVELT...The Underworld is a unit for Roosevelt. The gangsters of Chicago, St. Louis....and Jew York are for Roosevelt...Roosevelt, thier subservient tool, will turn our country over to Tammany and thus we will have CATHOLIC CONTROL OF AMERICAN GOVERNMEMT AND LIFE, if he is elected...BEWARE OF THE 8TH OF NOVEMBER!"
Klan pamplet from 1930's or 40's
All of these Reconstruction era black Senators and Representatives were members of the Republican Party. The Republicans were the party of Abraham Lincoln and of the Emancipation Proclamation, while the Democrats were the party of slavery and secession. Until 1876, the Republicans made genuine efforts to ensure that southern blacks were able to vote.
After the deal with the southern states that secured the election of Rutherford B. Hayes in 1876, however, Republican interest in southern blacks faded, and the white Democrats gradually regained control of the Southern legislatures and restricted the rights of blacks to vote. The last black Congressman elected from the South was George W. White of North Carolina, elected in 1897. After his term expired in 1901, there were no blacks in the Congress for 28 years.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The article states, "Through sympathetic elected officials, the KKK controlled the governments of Tennessee, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Oregon in addition to those of the Southern Democratic legislatures." I've seen detailed discussions of how Indiana's state government was controlled, for a time, from top to bottom by the Klan. However, the last clause, about "Southern Democratic legislatures," seems way too vague, and I have a hard time believing it. Also, the whole sentence doesn't state the time frames. For instance, IIRC their control of the Indiana state government only lasted for a few years. Can anyone provide more detailed information, and improve the accuracy of this sentence?-- Bcrowell 17:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
The following statements are simply untrue. The Klan was extremely powerful in rural South Carolina AFTER it was supposedly destroyed according to the statements below.
The first Klan was destroyed by President Ulysses S. Grant's vigorous action under the 1871 Klan Act and Enforcement Act.
In 1871 President Ulysses S. Grant signed The Klan Act and Enforcement Act. The Klan became an illegal group, and the use of force was authorized to suppress and disrupt the organization's activities. Hundreds of Klan members were fined or imprisoned, and habeas corpus was suspended in some counties in South Carolina. These efforts were so successful that the Klan was eliminated in South Carolina and decimated throughout the rest of the country. The Klan Act was declared unconstitutional in 1882, but the Klan was largely gone by then, and had in fact achieved many of its original goals, such as denying political rights to blacks.
I'm reverting Pollinator's edits that changed "destroyed" to "driven underground." This part of the article is now extremely thoroughly footnoted, from multiple print sources. Despite my repeated requests, Pollinator has not come forward with any verifiable information to the contrary.-- Bcrowell 02:05, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Reverting Pollinator's latest edits. Pollinator, please provide some print sources for your assertions. Also, see below under "between the klans."-- Bcrowell
Basically I would say that the 'First KKK' ended with its disbanding by the Grand Wizard, General Nathan Bedford Forrest, in 1869. The Enforcement Acts of the 1870's didn't cripple the party it only immoblised the already shattered entity. The Acts only served to shine light on the racist parties diminished presence.
As part of my revert of Pollinator's edits about the end of the first Klan, I've also deleted the following text about the period between the first and second klans:
The part about Hydra doesn't seem accurate to me, based on Wade and Horn. I'm not convinced that Ben Tillman is particularly important or relevant here. The historiography stuff about Mary Simms Oliphant and William Bodie is interesting, but IMO not particularly relevant here. Maybe it would be a good idea to start a section on historical perceptions of the first and second klans?-- Bcrowell
There have been some reverts and re-reverts of some material about Byrd. I think this may have somehow gotten tangled up with the issue of end of the first Klan. I've asked Brownman40 and Jpgordon to discuss these issues here. Participation on the talk page from Pollinator would also be welcome.-- Bcrowell 05:14, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
However, he either led or supported failed attempts to scuttle the nominations of Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas, the first and second black Supreme Court justices, Condoleezza Rice, the first black female Secretary of State, and Janice Rogers Brown, a black appellate judge.
I believe this text is appropriate, considering the quote that Byrd said joining the Klan is his biggest mistake. If that quote wasn't there, I would agree that text is POV, but in light of that quote this text neutralizes the point of view. And though it is not provable, I believe Sen. Byrd's opposition to the only two black Supreme Court Justices of differing political backgrounds is germane. Brownman40 23:57, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Since the indentation level is getting awfully deep, I'm coming back over to the left. Jpgordon's argument that it's off-topic makes some sense to me. There's been sort of a similar issue with the Truman stuff, where all the (extremely complicated) info about his flirtation with the Klan is in the Klan article --- it used to be duplicated in the main Truman article, but that got silly. There does need to be some sane split between what goes in this article and what goes in the Byrd article. Karefan0, I disagree with your argument that it's NPOV as currently written, and I think you're misunderstanding me if you think I was arguing that we should be leaving "biased information intact in one article and then counting on someone to click on another article to balance it out." My argument was that it was NPOV and true, and that the Byrd article supported it. In any case, it's a little weird that the three of us are getting into such a long debate about this, while Brownman40, who started the whole controversy, has only posted once and then gone away. I don't really care about the issue that much myself, but I wanted to get Brownman40 to discuss it here. If he doesn't care enough to stay involved in the debate, and I don't care that much either, then it seems fine to me if Jpgordon or Katefan0 wants to get rid of the contested text in the section on Byrd. It was just a bad situation to have a revert war going on between Brownman and Jpgordon, without any debate on the talk page.-- Bcrowell 16:02, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
132.241.41.181, could you discuss your edits here? Re the Truman stuff, Truman's friendship with Jacobson wouldn't disqualify him from Klan membership, although it might have created some cognitive dissonance.-- Bcrowell 22:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
132.241.41.181 added the URL http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050710/NEWS01/507100360/1056/rss02 to the text of the article. 132.241.41.181, please use the talk page -- that material was already footnoted, and if you think this reference adds useful information, it belongs in the footnote, not in the text.-- Bcrowell 22:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking of self-nominating this to be a featured article. Comments? Is it ready?-- Bcrowell 22:56, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
28 Days (film) is a film showing negatively the KKK. Maybe it should be included in the article. CG 07:51, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
In 1980 Ronold Reagan made a speach in Philidelphia Mississippi declareing the utost importance of states rights. Andrew Young pointed out the insensitivity of Reagan's making such a speach at the sight of the most infamous tripple murder the Klan ever commited.
Soon afterwards Klan Wizard Wilkinson endorced Reagan saying "The Republican platform reads as if a Klanmen had written it."
Wilkinson especialy like Reagan's lukewarn stance on afermitive action.
Reagan regected this endorsement. Weeks after it had been made.
"The Firey Cross" page 387
That same year on september 1st Reagan claimed Jimmy Carter chose to open his campain in Tuscumbia Alabama because it "gave birth and is the parent body of the Klu Klux Klan" a lie that Reagan never gave a sincer apology for but used it when confronted with facts to further slander Jimmy Carter.
Soon after Regans lie Wilkinson went one step further and he argued The fact the Klan had been injected into the campain proved "the ideals of the Klan" had risen to high levels. "It's risen to such a high level that the GOP platform parallels our views almost one-hundred percent across the board"
"The Firey Cross" page 388
In 1985 when Reagan was denied millitary support for the contras in Nicuraga Klansmen rallied to his side. Don Black announced that he had created a 120 man Klan Unit called "The Nathanian Beford Forrest Brigade" with the intention of aiding the contras. Black said the brigade would engage in psychological warfare in Nicuraga to foster anti-government seniment and would provde "a civi action unit to promote a stable economy" The Klan felt that they were acting with Regan's blessing because he had said in October that "traditional" for American volunteers to take such actions in other countries.
"The Firey Cross" page 398
In 1980 Ronold Reagan made a speach in Philidelphia Mississippi declareing the utost importance of states rights. Andrew Young pointed out the insensitivity of Reagan's making such a speach at the sight of the most infamous tripple murder the Klan ever commited.
Soon afterwards Klan Wizard Wilkinson endorced Reagan saying "The Republican platform reads as if a Klanmen had written it."
Wilkinson especialy like Reagan's lukewarn stance on afermitive action.
Reagan regected this endorsement. A long time after it had been made.
"The Fiery Cross" page 387
That same year on september 1st Reagan claimed Jimmy Carter chose to open his campain in Tuscumbia Alabama because it "gave birth and is the parent body of the Klu Klux Klan" a lie that Reagan never gave a sincer apology for but used it when confronted with facts to further slander Jimmy Carter.
Soon after Regans lie Wilkinson went one step further and he argued The fact the Klan had been injected into the campain proved "the ideals of the Klan" had risen to high levels. "It's risen to such a high level that the GOP platform parallels our views almost one-hundred percent across the board"
"The Fiery Cross" page 388
In 1985 when Reagan was denied millitary support for the contras in Nicuraga Klansmen rallied to his side. Don Black announced that he had created a 120 man Klan Unit called "The Nathanian Beford Forrest Brigade" with the intention of aiding the contras. Black said the brigade would engage in psychological warfare in Nicuraga to foster anti-government seniment and would provde "a civi action unit to promote a stable economy" The Klan felt that they were acting with Regan's blessing because he had said in October that "traditional" for American volunteers to take such actions in other countries.
"The Fiery Cross" page 398
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/features/woody/woodyNatural.htm
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/features/woody/woodyNatural.htm
An anon has been doing the following edit and getting reverted by me and Andrew pmk:
The italics are the text the anon has been adding. I don't have Thompson's book checked out of the library right now, so I can't verify this, but in any case, I don't understand why it would be notable. Anon, could you explain?-- Bcrowell 04:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
maybe he's trying to figure out if Bill's statments about Reagan were truely his opinion or done at the direction of the FBI.
they have been a political and religious group in the past not just a fraternal group.
I feel sorry for those who censor this fact.
Materials from this (KKK) article should be merged into TOKKK as needed and the section here (KKK) should be reduced to a brief summary (not my interest, so I leave it to others). Leonard G. 15:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
"Afterward, the President appreciatively gave members of the team War Department license tags that allowed them to run red lights all across the nation."
wouldn't there be records of this?
I feel we should split this article because it's gotten way to big.
I aprecreate your idea of a "Notable Ku Klux Klan members in U.S. politics" but we are talking about a secret society and who was at it's boldest in it's infancy thus we would see a political slant if we did this.
I advocate the system I tried to state inwhich there is the main artical and three linking articals one for each of the Klans.
Long as it keeps to the National level its cool.
We got some good comments in peer review. I'm nominating this to be a featured article now.-- Bcrowell 22:59, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I've deleted this section. It only had one sentence in it ("The Ku Klux Klan is a common reference point for extremism in the arts. It has been featured in British musical theatre, in Jerry Springer - The Opera."), and in the past had acted as a magnet for trivia about movies that just happened to have something about the Klan in them. People had complained that it was weird that it was a single sentence, and in the FA discussion, there was a complaint about the section as well.-- Bcrowell 17:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
"Don't be fooled. Farly is ROOSEVELT: Tammany Hall. Catholic controled is ROOSEVELT....EVERY PROMINANT ROMAN CATHOLIC YOU CAN FIND IS FOR ROOSEVELT...The Underworld is a unit for Roosevelt. The gangsters of Chicago, St. Louis....and Jew York are for Roosevelt...Roosevelt, thier subservient tool, will turn our country over to Tammany and thus we will have CATHOLIC CONTROL OF AMERICAN GOVERNMEMT AND LIFE, if he is elected...BEWARE OF THE 8TH OF NOVEMBER!"
Klan pamplet from 1930's or 40's
All of these Reconstruction era black Senators and Representatives were members of the Republican Party. The Republicans were the party of Abraham Lincoln and of the Emancipation Proclamation, while the Democrats were the party of slavery and secession. Until 1876, the Republicans made genuine efforts to ensure that southern blacks were able to vote.
After the deal with the southern states that secured the election of Rutherford B. Hayes in 1876, however, Republican interest in southern blacks faded, and the white Democrats gradually regained control of the Southern legislatures and restricted the rights of blacks to vote. The last black Congressman elected from the South was George W. White of North Carolina, elected in 1897. After his term expired in 1901, there were no blacks in the Congress for 28 years.