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According to the 2002 Romanian census, only 206 persons declared themselves "caraşoveni" (and 22.500 "Serbians") Bogdan | Talk 18:14, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
http://www.ihjj.hr/o-hr-jeziku.htm
...Hrvati u Gradišću (Austrija, Mađarska, Slovačka) služe se uglavnom dijalektima čakavskoga, rjeđe štokavskoga i kajkavskog narječja, Hrvati u talijanskoj pokrajini Molise štokavskim narječjem, a Hrvati Krašovani u Rumunjskoj služe se jednim torlačkim dijalektom.
http://www.tippnet.co.yu/Media/Miroljub/4.13/Mir01.html
Na žalost, ne događa se ovo prvi put u našoj dugoj povijesti boravka na ovim bačkim prostranstvima. Jedno je zapravo zanimljivo, da su nam svakako drugo ime lakše zapamtili nego ono pravo izvorno, da smo Hrvati. Bili smo Bunjevci, i Šokci, i Dalmatinci, i Bošnjaci, i Iliri, i katolički Raci, a oni u Rumunjskoj Krašovani ili Kraševci – samo ne Hrvati.
Pa to je upravo zato što Bunjevci, Šokci i Krašovani i nisu bili Hrvati, već su kroatizovani tokom 20 veka. Da su ti ljudi u prošlosti sebe smatrali Hrvatima, valjda bi se tako i izjašnjavali na starim austro-ugarskim popisima, što nije bio slučaj. Glupo je sada na silu nametati hrvatski identitet nekom ko ga nije imao. Dakle, uopšte se ne radi o tome da neko drugi nije te ljude nazivao i smatrao Hrvatima, već oni sami sebe nisu tako nazivali i smatrali. PANONIAN (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Ha, ha, BAS TAKO! Cheers. 24.86.110.10 ( talk) 04:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Svi oni nisu Hrvati kad su u tim zemljama, a čim su se makli u inozemstvo, pisali su se Hrvatima. Nije prvi put da je netko iskrivljavao nečiju narodnu pripadnost. Koliko Macedonaca, Bugara, Albanaca, Turaka, Vlaha (Meglenskih, Kucovlaha itd.), Italijana je danas u Grčkoj prikazano kao "Grci"?
Krašovanski Hrvati su podrijetlom iz sjeverozapadne Hrvatske. Poprimili su torlačko narječje od okolnih Srba, zar je to nelogično? Kubura 09:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Pa to je uprovo to change this? "Krashovans" it is not used something like this. It looks like transliteration from Romanian into english. Bonaparte talk 20:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I thought that you refer to name of the Caraşova town. So, what you suggest here, to change name of this article? I understand that this is Romania-related article, but since this article is about people, the best option for its name would be the name used by this people for themselves (that would be Krašovani, I think), or the proper English word, which in this case might be Krashovans. It is interesting that article about Magyars use the Hungarian name for themselves, not the one mostly used in English - the Hungarians. So, what you suggest that we should to do here? PANONIAN (talk) 01:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Just to note here that previous discussion in Serbian/Croatian was not about name of the article, but about ethnic identity of Krashovani. PANONIAN (talk) 02:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The article claims that:
Since The Republic of Croatia's constitution allows dual citizenship and fairly liberally awards citizenship to anybody declaring themselves Croatian by nationality outside of her borders, an increasing number of Krashovani have recently opted for the Croatian nationality in the wake of Croatia's growing prosperity and constantly strengthening diplomatic ties with the USA and Western Europe.
Are there any sources for this? I think particularly the part "constantly strengthening diplomatic ties with the USA and Western Europe" is a bit questionable, considering that Romania has stronger ties with the rest of Europe, particularly in regards to EU accession (and nearly all Krashovani are Romanian citizens).
Ronline
✉
06:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
..yes yes yes, it is true that Romania has strong ties with Western Europe, I fully understand and would never argue with that; so much so that I defend Romania, its people and culture to the top of the hill when ignorant people think of them as non-European easterners etc. Now the business about Croatia allowing dual citizenship is one which was already there beforehand (I revised it), I can't provide a source as such but I know that the country does this. You see, firstly, over 20% of Bosnia identifies as Croatian, and that is almost as many as there are Catholics (a correlation as it were), so the Zagreb based government is only too happy to accept this. But then there is the radical wing of Croatian politics, adherents to which recognise not only declared Croats as being Croats, but many who are not - to cut a long story short, people who migrated to other areas but trace their previous settlements as present-day Croatia; Slav descended inhabitants of Romania and Hungary indiginous to their present land but never became part of Yugoslavia, thus unable to join Croatia (cauition: these people may also be claimed by Slovenia, Serbia or Bulgaria if not all three depending who and where)...but back to the point: Krashovans are different from Romanians in that their Slavic language deflags a seperate identity to the Romanic display of the principle population. A Krashovan may indeed be entitled to Romanian citizenship which he might take, BUT he may (if allowed) choose a serbia-Montenegro passport, or indeed a Croatian one, and (I suppose) that Croatia's prosperity is certainly looking better than Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia-Montenegro... so I guess that this comment is down to analysis. Trim it if you wish Ronline, but please don't wipe it. Good luck on joining the EU in '07 (I mean that for the people, not the stinking government) Celtmist 28.01.2006
First of all, mister Celtmist (now Jordovan), stop changing your nicknames, we all know that it is you. Second, you now say that you spoke with one person from Timisoara, and you claim that you know everything about Serbs who live in that city only because of that one conversation. I do not dispute that few Krashovans live in that city, but most of the Serbs who live there are not Krashovans but Orthodox Serbs who do not speak Torlakian but Ekavian Vojvodina-Šumadija dialect. In the outset of the 18th century Orthodox Serbs even were majority in Timisoara. So, learn first something about history of this city, and learn something about geographical distribution of various ethnic groups before you start your stupid revert wars. If Orthodox Serbs do not live in Timisoara, then how can be that this city have a large Serbian Orthodox church, and how can be that Serbian national council was held in 1790 in this city? You should learn history and ethnology from the books, not from your cousin or his wife. PANONIAN (talk) 01:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
He is same as Celtmist, believe me. He have several more nicknames, and if you compare what edits and in what articles those "persons" made, the only logical conclusion is that it is one same person with several nicknames. What are his reasons for changing nicknames like this I do not know, and why he changing Serbs into Krashovans in Timisoara article I also do not know. PANONIAN (talk) 17:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Ronline, see this, it is interesting:
The first edit is made by Celtmist of course:
Then comes a new nickname (Srbovac) with similar edit (I have no doubt that it is also Celtmist):
This is the best part (He is now anonymous user, which he often like to be):
Finally, the last edit made by "Jordovan" (also Celtmist of course):
How nice for him, dont you agree? I would rather use the talk page on his place and provide a source that all Serbs from Timisoara are Krashovans. This is ridiculous. PANONIAN (talk) 17:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Ronline, just ignore Pannonian's nonsense. I am not Serbian and my name is not Jordovan, you're quite right about that. My interests are in Romania and all countries. Pannonian thinks the world outside Vojvodina does not exist. Celtmist 06/02/05
Ronline Do not argue with the edits. Soon I will extend Croathood and you'll see why everything is real with the evidence too. User:Millenko
Could there be any connection between those two groups? I noticed a lot of similarities, like they're both Roman Catholic and South Slavs, inhabit the Banat and come from very close parts of the Balkans as well — northwestern Bulgaria is at the opposite, east bank of the Timok River, and towns such as Chiprovtsi are in fact very close to the modern border with Serbia. Also, the Krashovani speak Torlakian, a vernacular that is also present in western (including northwestern) Bulgaria, albeit regarded as a western Bulgarian dialect.
Of course, not all Banat Bulgarians come from around Chiprovtsi and the northwest of present-day Bulgaria, these are only one of the groups that formed their population, but I'm particularly interested whether there could be any connection between this specific group and the Krashovani. Like another of those cases of people otherwise just part of the South Slavic continuum but divided by national borders (understand that a bit metaphorical in this case, i.e. Croats, Serbs, even Bulgarians "claiming" the Krashovani) in recent centuries.
What do you guys think? Also, is there any information on how the Krashovani accepted
Roman Catholicism, because the people from Chiprovtsi and the region were converted by
Saxon ore miners (they themselves adopting the Bulgarian language and becoming Bulgarian), and I know there are also copper ores just across the BG-SR border (like in
Bor, Serbia), I even believe it's the same
vein.
→ Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov
→
17:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Dude, I've got it: a gallery at the bottom of the page. Tell me your thoughts. Dahn 02:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
That will not work since we should have at least 3 images for that (Gallery is ugly with only two images). But what is wrong with the current place of the images? PANONIAN (talk) 03:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I dislike it profoundly. It leaves gaps in the text, and the images hang below the bottom-line of the text (plus, you've made the county map one unnecessarily hugemalongous). But, hey, it's a subjective opinion; I'm not going to dwell on it. My compulsive side tells me to take the six-hour ride by train to Caraş-Severin and get you pictures to post in a gallery (no, not really :) ). Dahn 03:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, here is the solution for your problem: you should use Opera instead of Internet Explorer and you should change resolution on your computer to 800x600 and then you will see the article fine. :) Ok, no more joke, I think that we can adjust images on its current position that they do not make gaps in the text. I will try, give me second. PANONIAN (talk) 03:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Is it ok now? It look fine to me on the Internet Explorer too (but I still have 800x600 resolution). PANONIAN (talk) 03:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, yea (although I had tried to make the datailed map bigger, and the schematic one its size). Now I won't need to go to Caraş-Severin. No but really, thanks for your patience. Dahn 03:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Dahn, I know that we discussed this already, but the previous solution that we found was not the best one (the images were too small). I made some changes with the position and size of these images, and the article looks fine to me on both, Opera and IE. Please tell me your opinion about the current look of the article. Should we change something in the position and size of these images? PANONIAN (talk) 20:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
from http://www.edrc.ro/recensamant.jsp?regiune_id=1832&judet_id=1909&localitate_id=1930
bogdan 22:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
? Didn't You just say 22,500 "Serbians" to the up? -- PaxEquilibrium 23:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Bavarians are a subset of Germans - they like in Bavaria. A lot of the time Bavarians say they are "Bavarian" because that is the region they come from - it is different culturally from Northern Germany. Krashovani come from Caraşova - often they say they are Krashovani because it is an area that is culturally unique. However, you don't see an infobox in Bavarians stating they are a separate ethnic group from Germans. See my point? 65.10.55.131 03:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Convincing argument. The infobox was re-removed for the same reasons above.
The debate is too heated for Moldovans. This is completely different, Krashovani are defined purely be region. 72.144.114.25 18:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Are they or are they not a distinct ethnic group? It doesn't say they are in the article. 72.144.191.155 06:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Krashovani is a name used for Croat population from around Caraşova. It's just a name for a local Croats, although there are other villages there where Croats live; Caraşova (Karaševo) is the biggest one.
We're getting into an unnecessary discussion. Soon will get into discussion if Newyorker is a designation for ethnic group or minority group.
Kubura
09:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Really? Croatized? How? Maybe because it was a part of Croatia? Come on, be serious. We know those Serb stories about "separate Slavic groups of Serb origins that later Croatized". Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Roxus, Krashovani speak Torlakian dialect, which is more closer to Bulgarian, than to Serbian. Second, small Slavic groups do get under influence of Slavic majority, and they take, as the time goes, the surrounding dialect or language, but not necessarily changing the nationality. Serbo-croatian dialect? There isn't thing such as "serbo-croatian dialect". Izdao si se, Roxuse. Whose sockpuppet are you? Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Still, I don't deny the mixing of all those nationalities there. That happens every time everywhere. But that's not the issue here. Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Radan is a Croat surname. See the Croatian phonebook. Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"...have Bulgarian names...". That doesn't mean anything. Among Croats, you'll find ones with Hungarian, German, Russian, Czech, Slovak, Italian names, depending which area they live. But they declare themselves as Croats. Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Why I speak about Radan? Well, Roxus has mentioned local leader Mihai "Radan". Second, I've spoken about surname Radan, not name. Kubura 07:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I don´t understand why some people want to suggerate that the Krashovanis are Croats. They are all speaking an east-serbian dialect and so the serbian language, it is known that they are coming in the year 1370 to Romania (most of them from the TIMOK-region in Eastserbia and a other part from the territory of todays Croatia). And it is known that the Turks comes to Conquer South-Eastern Europe after the fight on the Kosovo field 1389, too. This are historic facts. And it is a fact, that the Krashovanis take the catholic confession then they arrived in romania because the Hungarys rules about this country. Only to make them "Croats" and gave the reason "they are catholics and all people who are speaking southslavic language with this confession are croats" it isn´t true, sorry! This is only a propaganda from the yugoslav communist party after 1945 and their big Boss, the Croat Tito. It exists many Serbs who ware catholic confession and they haven´t a problem with their nationality. 84.149.98.120 06:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
What's so unusual about that certain Slavic community took some language characteristics of the surrounding majority? Even Romanic population takes characteristics of neighbouring Slavs. And you expect that Slavic peoples, that have more in common, won't take something from neighbouring majority?
About south-slavic Catholics... Slovenians are also Catholics.
Unknown user said here ..."Only to make them "Croats" and gave the reason "they are catholics and all people who are speaking southslavic language with this confession are croats" it isn´t true, sorry! This is only a propaganda from the yugoslav communist party after 1945 and their big Boss, the Croat Tito. ".
Yeah, wright, communists cared a lot for Catholic church and Croats. Especially Ranković and all other Serbs in YU-police and secret service. Especially when they persecuted and killed thousands of catholic priests under the excuse of "killing the enemy of people". Especially when they killed tens of thousands of Croat civilians after 1945 in Bleiburg and many labour camps across former Yugoslavia.
You haven't asked yourself what happened to uniate churches during communist rule.
Pannonian, you've said " is quite clear that they were Croatized in 1910-2002 period (The Croatian propaganda is probably guilty for this and the Catholic church also played a role I believe). " Catholic church is not national church. Popes and cardinals were mostly Italians, not Croats. And Catholic church is a hierarchy, they obey to things that "those above" say. So there's no talk about influence of Catholic church. Orthodox churches are national churches. You haven't asked yourself how many Croats were serbized through Serb Orthodox church. Croatian propaganda? Which propaganda? Maybe Croats ruled over the Kingdom of Yugoslavia? Maybe Karađorđevićs were Croats? Or maybe Croats had majority in YU-kingdom diplomacy, police, secret service, military?
Kubura
07:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
According to you, Panonian, and tables and chairs also ruled Yugoslavia, because they were in Yugoslav parliament from the beginning. Whome are you fooling?
Croats have ruled over Kingdom of Yugoslavia? Unfortunately, no. Whenever Croats opposed to ruling casta - Serbs, they got shot or inprisoned (Stjepan Radić case), or beaten to death (Milan Šufflay case
Article in NY Times etc...
Smaller nations Bunjevci and Šokci? Bunjevci and Šokci are Croats. Don't push that Greater Serbian propaganda here. That was its method: denying the existence of particular nation in Serbia (inventing "new nations").
Serbization through Serb Orthodox church? Yes, there were the cases of organized giving of land to Croat population, if they turn to Serb Orthodoxy. Done during Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Kubura
23:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Everybody knows that.
Ice Cold 09:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Provide your sources here. 72.144.150.20 18:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
New map needs additional work. The Croat-inhabited village (kajkavian dialect speakers) Keča in Romania is missing. Kubura 18:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I am going to ask the same qestion from the Gorani (Kosovo) - their ancestors were Serbian Orthodox Slavs that were adherents of the Serbian Orthodox Church - what prevents us from using "Orthodox Serbs". -- PaxEquilibrium 20:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I wish to raise a small point. The language box needs to be revised because it currently states that the language is Torlakian but most declare Croatian language. I appreciate that this is a factor relating to the chosen ethnic affiliation of the Krashovan community which seems to be favourably Croat. Assuming, without wishing to offend anyone, that modern Krashovans (the Slavic-speaking people of
Caraş-Severin) are ethnic Croats, can we not present the case in a slightly different way? An example may be that there is a diglossia: privately people use the traditional independently developed local Torlakian dialect, and officially, or atleast potentially : (because I don't know quite how the Romanian government stands with recognising Krashovani/Croats), Croatian language (the Dubrovnik-based stylised modern language representing all who identify as Croats whether they actually speak it or not). Another option might be to state that they speak The Torlakian dialect of the Croatian language. This might upset some Serbs but there is an upside: writers on Croatian speech discuss the different speech forms which make up Croatian, they speak of Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects, in which there are Ikavian and Ekavian variant accents, they also aim to cover the wider geographical distribution of Croats which is why local dialects of Bosnia and Serbia (and Romania) where there are Croats are classed as Dialects of the Croatian language. This does include Torlakian, atleast for the Janjevs of Kosovo if nobody else. Because of the South Slavic dialect continuum, every community forms a part of the linguistic matrix in every region. This means that Serbs living as far afield as Kajkavia and Chakavia who actively contribute to the local dialects may also be included fairly when it said that Kajkavian and Chakavian and the Ikavski accent are all forms of the Serbian language too. The current revision makes it look as though they speak Torlakian and call it Croatian, who are we as openminded people to tell anyone that although he claims to speak one language, he is actually speaking another!!
Evlekis
11:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Евлекис Blocked sock:
Evlekis.
Torlakian Croatian language. :D -- PaxEquilibrium 00:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
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The histiry section doesn't answer how they shifted to the Torlakian language. -- 95.24.69.191 ( talk) 21:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Super Dromaeosaurus: Why did you revert my recent edits? It's established with sources within the article that the Krashovani speak Torlakian, and it's also well established that Croatian is a literary standard based on the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect of Shtokavian rather than a distinct language. I highly doubt the Krashovani speak a literary standard in everyday life. ~Red of Arctic Circle System ( talk) 00:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
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According to the 2002 Romanian census, only 206 persons declared themselves "caraşoveni" (and 22.500 "Serbians") Bogdan | Talk 18:14, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
http://www.ihjj.hr/o-hr-jeziku.htm
...Hrvati u Gradišću (Austrija, Mađarska, Slovačka) služe se uglavnom dijalektima čakavskoga, rjeđe štokavskoga i kajkavskog narječja, Hrvati u talijanskoj pokrajini Molise štokavskim narječjem, a Hrvati Krašovani u Rumunjskoj služe se jednim torlačkim dijalektom.
http://www.tippnet.co.yu/Media/Miroljub/4.13/Mir01.html
Na žalost, ne događa se ovo prvi put u našoj dugoj povijesti boravka na ovim bačkim prostranstvima. Jedno je zapravo zanimljivo, da su nam svakako drugo ime lakše zapamtili nego ono pravo izvorno, da smo Hrvati. Bili smo Bunjevci, i Šokci, i Dalmatinci, i Bošnjaci, i Iliri, i katolički Raci, a oni u Rumunjskoj Krašovani ili Kraševci – samo ne Hrvati.
Pa to je upravo zato što Bunjevci, Šokci i Krašovani i nisu bili Hrvati, već su kroatizovani tokom 20 veka. Da su ti ljudi u prošlosti sebe smatrali Hrvatima, valjda bi se tako i izjašnjavali na starim austro-ugarskim popisima, što nije bio slučaj. Glupo je sada na silu nametati hrvatski identitet nekom ko ga nije imao. Dakle, uopšte se ne radi o tome da neko drugi nije te ljude nazivao i smatrao Hrvatima, već oni sami sebe nisu tako nazivali i smatrali. PANONIAN (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Ha, ha, BAS TAKO! Cheers. 24.86.110.10 ( talk) 04:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Svi oni nisu Hrvati kad su u tim zemljama, a čim su se makli u inozemstvo, pisali su se Hrvatima. Nije prvi put da je netko iskrivljavao nečiju narodnu pripadnost. Koliko Macedonaca, Bugara, Albanaca, Turaka, Vlaha (Meglenskih, Kucovlaha itd.), Italijana je danas u Grčkoj prikazano kao "Grci"?
Krašovanski Hrvati su podrijetlom iz sjeverozapadne Hrvatske. Poprimili su torlačko narječje od okolnih Srba, zar je to nelogično? Kubura 09:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Pa to je uprovo to change this? "Krashovans" it is not used something like this. It looks like transliteration from Romanian into english. Bonaparte talk 20:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I thought that you refer to name of the Caraşova town. So, what you suggest here, to change name of this article? I understand that this is Romania-related article, but since this article is about people, the best option for its name would be the name used by this people for themselves (that would be Krašovani, I think), or the proper English word, which in this case might be Krashovans. It is interesting that article about Magyars use the Hungarian name for themselves, not the one mostly used in English - the Hungarians. So, what you suggest that we should to do here? PANONIAN (talk) 01:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Just to note here that previous discussion in Serbian/Croatian was not about name of the article, but about ethnic identity of Krashovani. PANONIAN (talk) 02:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The article claims that:
Since The Republic of Croatia's constitution allows dual citizenship and fairly liberally awards citizenship to anybody declaring themselves Croatian by nationality outside of her borders, an increasing number of Krashovani have recently opted for the Croatian nationality in the wake of Croatia's growing prosperity and constantly strengthening diplomatic ties with the USA and Western Europe.
Are there any sources for this? I think particularly the part "constantly strengthening diplomatic ties with the USA and Western Europe" is a bit questionable, considering that Romania has stronger ties with the rest of Europe, particularly in regards to EU accession (and nearly all Krashovani are Romanian citizens).
Ronline
✉
06:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
..yes yes yes, it is true that Romania has strong ties with Western Europe, I fully understand and would never argue with that; so much so that I defend Romania, its people and culture to the top of the hill when ignorant people think of them as non-European easterners etc. Now the business about Croatia allowing dual citizenship is one which was already there beforehand (I revised it), I can't provide a source as such but I know that the country does this. You see, firstly, over 20% of Bosnia identifies as Croatian, and that is almost as many as there are Catholics (a correlation as it were), so the Zagreb based government is only too happy to accept this. But then there is the radical wing of Croatian politics, adherents to which recognise not only declared Croats as being Croats, but many who are not - to cut a long story short, people who migrated to other areas but trace their previous settlements as present-day Croatia; Slav descended inhabitants of Romania and Hungary indiginous to their present land but never became part of Yugoslavia, thus unable to join Croatia (cauition: these people may also be claimed by Slovenia, Serbia or Bulgaria if not all three depending who and where)...but back to the point: Krashovans are different from Romanians in that their Slavic language deflags a seperate identity to the Romanic display of the principle population. A Krashovan may indeed be entitled to Romanian citizenship which he might take, BUT he may (if allowed) choose a serbia-Montenegro passport, or indeed a Croatian one, and (I suppose) that Croatia's prosperity is certainly looking better than Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia-Montenegro... so I guess that this comment is down to analysis. Trim it if you wish Ronline, but please don't wipe it. Good luck on joining the EU in '07 (I mean that for the people, not the stinking government) Celtmist 28.01.2006
First of all, mister Celtmist (now Jordovan), stop changing your nicknames, we all know that it is you. Second, you now say that you spoke with one person from Timisoara, and you claim that you know everything about Serbs who live in that city only because of that one conversation. I do not dispute that few Krashovans live in that city, but most of the Serbs who live there are not Krashovans but Orthodox Serbs who do not speak Torlakian but Ekavian Vojvodina-Šumadija dialect. In the outset of the 18th century Orthodox Serbs even were majority in Timisoara. So, learn first something about history of this city, and learn something about geographical distribution of various ethnic groups before you start your stupid revert wars. If Orthodox Serbs do not live in Timisoara, then how can be that this city have a large Serbian Orthodox church, and how can be that Serbian national council was held in 1790 in this city? You should learn history and ethnology from the books, not from your cousin or his wife. PANONIAN (talk) 01:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
He is same as Celtmist, believe me. He have several more nicknames, and if you compare what edits and in what articles those "persons" made, the only logical conclusion is that it is one same person with several nicknames. What are his reasons for changing nicknames like this I do not know, and why he changing Serbs into Krashovans in Timisoara article I also do not know. PANONIAN (talk) 17:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Ronline, see this, it is interesting:
The first edit is made by Celtmist of course:
Then comes a new nickname (Srbovac) with similar edit (I have no doubt that it is also Celtmist):
This is the best part (He is now anonymous user, which he often like to be):
Finally, the last edit made by "Jordovan" (also Celtmist of course):
How nice for him, dont you agree? I would rather use the talk page on his place and provide a source that all Serbs from Timisoara are Krashovans. This is ridiculous. PANONIAN (talk) 17:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Ronline, just ignore Pannonian's nonsense. I am not Serbian and my name is not Jordovan, you're quite right about that. My interests are in Romania and all countries. Pannonian thinks the world outside Vojvodina does not exist. Celtmist 06/02/05
Ronline Do not argue with the edits. Soon I will extend Croathood and you'll see why everything is real with the evidence too. User:Millenko
Could there be any connection between those two groups? I noticed a lot of similarities, like they're both Roman Catholic and South Slavs, inhabit the Banat and come from very close parts of the Balkans as well — northwestern Bulgaria is at the opposite, east bank of the Timok River, and towns such as Chiprovtsi are in fact very close to the modern border with Serbia. Also, the Krashovani speak Torlakian, a vernacular that is also present in western (including northwestern) Bulgaria, albeit regarded as a western Bulgarian dialect.
Of course, not all Banat Bulgarians come from around Chiprovtsi and the northwest of present-day Bulgaria, these are only one of the groups that formed their population, but I'm particularly interested whether there could be any connection between this specific group and the Krashovani. Like another of those cases of people otherwise just part of the South Slavic continuum but divided by national borders (understand that a bit metaphorical in this case, i.e. Croats, Serbs, even Bulgarians "claiming" the Krashovani) in recent centuries.
What do you guys think? Also, is there any information on how the Krashovani accepted
Roman Catholicism, because the people from Chiprovtsi and the region were converted by
Saxon ore miners (they themselves adopting the Bulgarian language and becoming Bulgarian), and I know there are also copper ores just across the BG-SR border (like in
Bor, Serbia), I even believe it's the same
vein.
→ Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov
→
17:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Dude, I've got it: a gallery at the bottom of the page. Tell me your thoughts. Dahn 02:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
That will not work since we should have at least 3 images for that (Gallery is ugly with only two images). But what is wrong with the current place of the images? PANONIAN (talk) 03:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I dislike it profoundly. It leaves gaps in the text, and the images hang below the bottom-line of the text (plus, you've made the county map one unnecessarily hugemalongous). But, hey, it's a subjective opinion; I'm not going to dwell on it. My compulsive side tells me to take the six-hour ride by train to Caraş-Severin and get you pictures to post in a gallery (no, not really :) ). Dahn 03:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, here is the solution for your problem: you should use Opera instead of Internet Explorer and you should change resolution on your computer to 800x600 and then you will see the article fine. :) Ok, no more joke, I think that we can adjust images on its current position that they do not make gaps in the text. I will try, give me second. PANONIAN (talk) 03:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Is it ok now? It look fine to me on the Internet Explorer too (but I still have 800x600 resolution). PANONIAN (talk) 03:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, yea (although I had tried to make the datailed map bigger, and the schematic one its size). Now I won't need to go to Caraş-Severin. No but really, thanks for your patience. Dahn 03:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Dahn, I know that we discussed this already, but the previous solution that we found was not the best one (the images were too small). I made some changes with the position and size of these images, and the article looks fine to me on both, Opera and IE. Please tell me your opinion about the current look of the article. Should we change something in the position and size of these images? PANONIAN (talk) 20:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
from http://www.edrc.ro/recensamant.jsp?regiune_id=1832&judet_id=1909&localitate_id=1930
bogdan 22:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
? Didn't You just say 22,500 "Serbians" to the up? -- PaxEquilibrium 23:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Bavarians are a subset of Germans - they like in Bavaria. A lot of the time Bavarians say they are "Bavarian" because that is the region they come from - it is different culturally from Northern Germany. Krashovani come from Caraşova - often they say they are Krashovani because it is an area that is culturally unique. However, you don't see an infobox in Bavarians stating they are a separate ethnic group from Germans. See my point? 65.10.55.131 03:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Convincing argument. The infobox was re-removed for the same reasons above.
The debate is too heated for Moldovans. This is completely different, Krashovani are defined purely be region. 72.144.114.25 18:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Are they or are they not a distinct ethnic group? It doesn't say they are in the article. 72.144.191.155 06:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Krashovani is a name used for Croat population from around Caraşova. It's just a name for a local Croats, although there are other villages there where Croats live; Caraşova (Karaševo) is the biggest one.
We're getting into an unnecessary discussion. Soon will get into discussion if Newyorker is a designation for ethnic group or minority group.
Kubura
09:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Really? Croatized? How? Maybe because it was a part of Croatia? Come on, be serious. We know those Serb stories about "separate Slavic groups of Serb origins that later Croatized". Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Roxus, Krashovani speak Torlakian dialect, which is more closer to Bulgarian, than to Serbian. Second, small Slavic groups do get under influence of Slavic majority, and they take, as the time goes, the surrounding dialect or language, but not necessarily changing the nationality. Serbo-croatian dialect? There isn't thing such as "serbo-croatian dialect". Izdao si se, Roxuse. Whose sockpuppet are you? Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Still, I don't deny the mixing of all those nationalities there. That happens every time everywhere. But that's not the issue here. Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Radan is a Croat surname. See the Croatian phonebook. Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"...have Bulgarian names...". That doesn't mean anything. Among Croats, you'll find ones with Hungarian, German, Russian, Czech, Slovak, Italian names, depending which area they live. But they declare themselves as Croats. Kubura 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Why I speak about Radan? Well, Roxus has mentioned local leader Mihai "Radan". Second, I've spoken about surname Radan, not name. Kubura 07:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I don´t understand why some people want to suggerate that the Krashovanis are Croats. They are all speaking an east-serbian dialect and so the serbian language, it is known that they are coming in the year 1370 to Romania (most of them from the TIMOK-region in Eastserbia and a other part from the territory of todays Croatia). And it is known that the Turks comes to Conquer South-Eastern Europe after the fight on the Kosovo field 1389, too. This are historic facts. And it is a fact, that the Krashovanis take the catholic confession then they arrived in romania because the Hungarys rules about this country. Only to make them "Croats" and gave the reason "they are catholics and all people who are speaking southslavic language with this confession are croats" it isn´t true, sorry! This is only a propaganda from the yugoslav communist party after 1945 and their big Boss, the Croat Tito. It exists many Serbs who ware catholic confession and they haven´t a problem with their nationality. 84.149.98.120 06:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
What's so unusual about that certain Slavic community took some language characteristics of the surrounding majority? Even Romanic population takes characteristics of neighbouring Slavs. And you expect that Slavic peoples, that have more in common, won't take something from neighbouring majority?
About south-slavic Catholics... Slovenians are also Catholics.
Unknown user said here ..."Only to make them "Croats" and gave the reason "they are catholics and all people who are speaking southslavic language with this confession are croats" it isn´t true, sorry! This is only a propaganda from the yugoslav communist party after 1945 and their big Boss, the Croat Tito. ".
Yeah, wright, communists cared a lot for Catholic church and Croats. Especially Ranković and all other Serbs in YU-police and secret service. Especially when they persecuted and killed thousands of catholic priests under the excuse of "killing the enemy of people". Especially when they killed tens of thousands of Croat civilians after 1945 in Bleiburg and many labour camps across former Yugoslavia.
You haven't asked yourself what happened to uniate churches during communist rule.
Pannonian, you've said " is quite clear that they were Croatized in 1910-2002 period (The Croatian propaganda is probably guilty for this and the Catholic church also played a role I believe). " Catholic church is not national church. Popes and cardinals were mostly Italians, not Croats. And Catholic church is a hierarchy, they obey to things that "those above" say. So there's no talk about influence of Catholic church. Orthodox churches are national churches. You haven't asked yourself how many Croats were serbized through Serb Orthodox church. Croatian propaganda? Which propaganda? Maybe Croats ruled over the Kingdom of Yugoslavia? Maybe Karađorđevićs were Croats? Or maybe Croats had majority in YU-kingdom diplomacy, police, secret service, military?
Kubura
07:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
According to you, Panonian, and tables and chairs also ruled Yugoslavia, because they were in Yugoslav parliament from the beginning. Whome are you fooling?
Croats have ruled over Kingdom of Yugoslavia? Unfortunately, no. Whenever Croats opposed to ruling casta - Serbs, they got shot or inprisoned (Stjepan Radić case), or beaten to death (Milan Šufflay case
Article in NY Times etc...
Smaller nations Bunjevci and Šokci? Bunjevci and Šokci are Croats. Don't push that Greater Serbian propaganda here. That was its method: denying the existence of particular nation in Serbia (inventing "new nations").
Serbization through Serb Orthodox church? Yes, there were the cases of organized giving of land to Croat population, if they turn to Serb Orthodoxy. Done during Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Kubura
23:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Everybody knows that.
Ice Cold 09:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Provide your sources here. 72.144.150.20 18:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
New map needs additional work. The Croat-inhabited village (kajkavian dialect speakers) Keča in Romania is missing. Kubura 18:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I am going to ask the same qestion from the Gorani (Kosovo) - their ancestors were Serbian Orthodox Slavs that were adherents of the Serbian Orthodox Church - what prevents us from using "Orthodox Serbs". -- PaxEquilibrium 20:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I wish to raise a small point. The language box needs to be revised because it currently states that the language is Torlakian but most declare Croatian language. I appreciate that this is a factor relating to the chosen ethnic affiliation of the Krashovan community which seems to be favourably Croat. Assuming, without wishing to offend anyone, that modern Krashovans (the Slavic-speaking people of
Caraş-Severin) are ethnic Croats, can we not present the case in a slightly different way? An example may be that there is a diglossia: privately people use the traditional independently developed local Torlakian dialect, and officially, or atleast potentially : (because I don't know quite how the Romanian government stands with recognising Krashovani/Croats), Croatian language (the Dubrovnik-based stylised modern language representing all who identify as Croats whether they actually speak it or not). Another option might be to state that they speak The Torlakian dialect of the Croatian language. This might upset some Serbs but there is an upside: writers on Croatian speech discuss the different speech forms which make up Croatian, they speak of Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects, in which there are Ikavian and Ekavian variant accents, they also aim to cover the wider geographical distribution of Croats which is why local dialects of Bosnia and Serbia (and Romania) where there are Croats are classed as Dialects of the Croatian language. This does include Torlakian, atleast for the Janjevs of Kosovo if nobody else. Because of the South Slavic dialect continuum, every community forms a part of the linguistic matrix in every region. This means that Serbs living as far afield as Kajkavia and Chakavia who actively contribute to the local dialects may also be included fairly when it said that Kajkavian and Chakavian and the Ikavski accent are all forms of the Serbian language too. The current revision makes it look as though they speak Torlakian and call it Croatian, who are we as openminded people to tell anyone that although he claims to speak one language, he is actually speaking another!!
Evlekis
11:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Евлекис Blocked sock:
Evlekis.
Torlakian Croatian language. :D -- PaxEquilibrium 00:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
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The histiry section doesn't answer how they shifted to the Torlakian language. -- 95.24.69.191 ( talk) 21:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Super Dromaeosaurus: Why did you revert my recent edits? It's established with sources within the article that the Krashovani speak Torlakian, and it's also well established that Croatian is a literary standard based on the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect of Shtokavian rather than a distinct language. I highly doubt the Krashovani speak a literary standard in everyday life. ~Red of Arctic Circle System ( talk) 00:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)