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@ Pincrete the question whether a genocide has happened is irrelevant to the lead, as its not being discussed there. It’s clear that a certain POV is trying to be portrayed with that sentence. And btw, being sourced doesn’t warrant the inclusion into the article nor the lead. You did not make any argument to why the content should remain in the lead.
„Vague and sourced content“ what exactly is vague about the expulsion? You easily could have looked up the article that is linked in this sentence, there you will find every source you need, but okay, if you insist on sources, I’ll add them later if I have time despite the case of WP:BLUESKY we have here. You know what would be vague? Including Albanian and Serbian estimates. But I did not do that. AlexBachmann ( talk) 17:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
It’s clear that a certain POV is trying to be portrayed with that sentence.For me it actually is not that clear - what POV is being portrayed by including the information that it was not ruled to be a genocide by the UN Supreme Court? That seems like a crucial, lede-worthy piece of information. Brat Forelli🦊 21:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
[...] found that there had been "a systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" against the Albanian population, but that Yugoslav troops had tried to force them out of Kosovo, but not to eradicate them, and therefore it was not genocide.To me, this looks like an attempts to make the "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" look like an opinion. AlexBachmann ( talk) 22:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
The modern Albanian-Serbian conflict has its roots in the expulsion of Albanians in 1877-1878...- is somewhat questionable. Albanians and Serbs (as a distinct population group) have been fighting since the Middle Ages, whereas the Balkan Slavs in general (whom the Serbs descend from) invaded territories inhabited by the ancestral populations of the Albanians all the way back in the 6th-7th centuries CE. The conflict between Albanians and Serbs goes back to over a millennia, not a century and a half ago. However, I notice the word "modern" there. Perhaps something else is meant by this line, but this should be clearly and explicitly stated.
Tensions in the form of revenge attacks arose by incoming Albanian refugees on local Kosovo Serbs...If the article in question cannot be expanded upon soon, I genuinely question whether or not it should even exist. All of its content fits into the Expulsion of the Albanians, 1877–1878 article, or even the Serbian–Ottoman Wars (1876–1878) article. It does not seem to warrant an article of its own, and I may propose it for deletion if it's not expanded upon soon. Nonetheless, that's a discussion that is more fitting on the TP of the article in question.
The statement "...thousands killed and between 70,000 and 100,000 expelled from Kosovo or sent to concentration camps in order to Albanianize the province..." references a book, which does mention those numbers, HOWEVER said book itself calls these numbers literally, and I quote, "pure fantasy".
This is a clear case of someone taking something out of context in order to try and make fantasy (it is a fantasy, according to their own source) into reality.
By the way, that was the first link I checked. I have no doubt there are countless more here. If Wikipedia wants to be a pillar of truth, there should be more work being done in checking these claims and not just approving them because they seem legit at first sight. 84.22.48.91 ( talk) 09:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kosovo War article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8Auto-archiving period: 60 days
![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
@ Pincrete the question whether a genocide has happened is irrelevant to the lead, as its not being discussed there. It’s clear that a certain POV is trying to be portrayed with that sentence. And btw, being sourced doesn’t warrant the inclusion into the article nor the lead. You did not make any argument to why the content should remain in the lead.
„Vague and sourced content“ what exactly is vague about the expulsion? You easily could have looked up the article that is linked in this sentence, there you will find every source you need, but okay, if you insist on sources, I’ll add them later if I have time despite the case of WP:BLUESKY we have here. You know what would be vague? Including Albanian and Serbian estimates. But I did not do that. AlexBachmann ( talk) 17:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
It’s clear that a certain POV is trying to be portrayed with that sentence.For me it actually is not that clear - what POV is being portrayed by including the information that it was not ruled to be a genocide by the UN Supreme Court? That seems like a crucial, lede-worthy piece of information. Brat Forelli🦊 21:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
[...] found that there had been "a systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" against the Albanian population, but that Yugoslav troops had tried to force them out of Kosovo, but not to eradicate them, and therefore it was not genocide.To me, this looks like an attempts to make the "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" look like an opinion. AlexBachmann ( talk) 22:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
The modern Albanian-Serbian conflict has its roots in the expulsion of Albanians in 1877-1878...- is somewhat questionable. Albanians and Serbs (as a distinct population group) have been fighting since the Middle Ages, whereas the Balkan Slavs in general (whom the Serbs descend from) invaded territories inhabited by the ancestral populations of the Albanians all the way back in the 6th-7th centuries CE. The conflict between Albanians and Serbs goes back to over a millennia, not a century and a half ago. However, I notice the word "modern" there. Perhaps something else is meant by this line, but this should be clearly and explicitly stated.
Tensions in the form of revenge attacks arose by incoming Albanian refugees on local Kosovo Serbs...If the article in question cannot be expanded upon soon, I genuinely question whether or not it should even exist. All of its content fits into the Expulsion of the Albanians, 1877–1878 article, or even the Serbian–Ottoman Wars (1876–1878) article. It does not seem to warrant an article of its own, and I may propose it for deletion if it's not expanded upon soon. Nonetheless, that's a discussion that is more fitting on the TP of the article in question.
The statement "...thousands killed and between 70,000 and 100,000 expelled from Kosovo or sent to concentration camps in order to Albanianize the province..." references a book, which does mention those numbers, HOWEVER said book itself calls these numbers literally, and I quote, "pure fantasy".
This is a clear case of someone taking something out of context in order to try and make fantasy (it is a fantasy, according to their own source) into reality.
By the way, that was the first link I checked. I have no doubt there are countless more here. If Wikipedia wants to be a pillar of truth, there should be more work being done in checking these claims and not just approving them because they seem legit at first sight. 84.22.48.91 ( talk) 09:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)