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Hello friend. In Greece the name of Konstantinos Speras is well known. We can make his article in WP again correctly because the previous one had a lot of promblems. But please, friend dont delete the sources that proves that he became a well known fascist. If you have any objections about it, and you believe lies that communist forces killed him (or cut off his head) cause he was an antistalinist socialist i will be very pleased to give you full proofs that he was fascist. Just check the bibliography of Greek article and request book and page. Best regards -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 16:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hi @ Αντικαθεστωτικός, thanks for the note. Could you please share a scan of those sources— mail me or link here? (I'm trying to determine the quality of the sources.) czar 10:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- > czar
1 Speras in 1926 as a witness in court against (all) the leadership of KKE, and he accuses them of nation traitors(with the possibility to have death penalty). Not stalinists in the leadership of KKE then but Pandelis Pouliopoulos.
2 Speras as hero of Greek fascists. (dont believe what he writes cause he dont have proofs for everything, he make from his mind many things)
3 Speras with the allias of "Greek worker" wrote the history of "Greek workers" in the fascist newspaper in the logic of worker fascist logic.4 A greek right wing minor historian (but with many famous publications with good archive) wrote "ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΚΟΝΔΑΚΗΣ. Επρόκειτο για αξιωματικό σε π.δ., ο οποίος ήταν πρόεδρος της Συνομοσπονδίας Παλαιών Πολεμιστών.[...] ( Ν. Καλύβας, Ε. Ευαγγέλου, Κ. Σπέρας),. He writes about an army official who collabarate with the axis, and he had a circle of trade unionists between them...Speras. The first one Kalyvas, was in 1944 by nazis, a minister. He was killed by OPLA.
There is a lot of staff in Greek. But the big deal is that in 2018 noone says the opposite side. Only one left guy Stinas said before 30 years that Speras was an anarchist, in his memoirs he said a lot of lies and he did a lot of copy paste from anticommunist propaganda!Because he had very anger cause, stalinists killed his friends.There is a lot of noise about him in greek internet maybe from his relatives, but after the last publication of Kostopoulos (a well known left journalist) who he just repeat what greek wikipedia wrote the conversation is ended for sure.
Απόστολος Κοκμάδης was an young army official who has give interviews and he says about the end of Speras. They were together and they went to fight against National Liberation Front (Greece). Κοκμάδης later became an officer of the army of communists, while Speras executed. Not beheaded. Not killed by OPLA as the "red terror" want. In Greece there was a ridiculus myth for years that Communist Army (ELAS) was good, but Communist police (OPLA) was bad. New historians proved that as good and as bad was ELAS so was OPLA. So Speras wasnt killed by OPLA as the myth wanted for not to blame the good face ELAS army, but from Orestis a prominent "captain" of ELAS.
Just to say that Avraam Benaroya and Yannis Kordatos insist that he was police informant from 1925. Was Avraam Benaroya or Kordatos a stalinist? I dont think so. -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 12:26, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hi @ Αντικαθεστωτικός, from what I understand, you're interpreting those sources as proof that Speras identified as a fascist. That would be fine if you were a historian making a claim in your own book, but with Wikipedia, we don't make original claims like that. Instead we cite secondary sources (such as historians) who make those claims for us. So do you have a reliable, secondary source that you can quote as explicitly having said that "Speras became a fascist"? If not, we unfortunately cannot make that claim until we have a reliable source to paraphrase. By the way, I have a friend who can help with translations from Greek if need be. Appreciate your patience, czar 16:27, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- czar No. I dont say that. I gave you the sources of the archives to understand what was happened and to find the truth alone if you want, cause there is a little deny that he was facsict. For wikipedia rules: Three historians are saying that he was a Fascist. Hondromatidis, Kostopoulos and Koukounas. I gave the 2 sources in the article. Case closed for Wikipedia. Hondromatidis is saying that he was a member of Fascist party of 1936.
- Hondromatidis, had written a book about Greek fascists. See the list of the Fascists.
- -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 19:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- @ Αντικαθεστωτικός, great—I expanded the citation:
Can you scan page 161 for me and quote the part that says Speras became a member of Mercouris's party? czar 20:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)Chondromatidēs, Iakōvos P (2013). Ο αναρχικός Κωνσταντίνος Σπέρας [About the Anarchist Konstantinos Speras]. Hoi Hellēnes 'phasistes': hoi phasistikes kai ethnikososialistikes organōseis stēn Hellada tou Mesopolemou (1927–1936) Οι Έλληνες «Φασίστες». Οι Φασιστικές και Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικές οργανώσεις στην Ελλάδα του Μεσοπολέμου (1927–1936) [The Greek "Fascists": Fascist and National Socialist Organizations in Interwar Greece (1927–1936)] (in Greek). Pelasgus. p. 161. ISBN 978-960-522-356-4. OCLC 899259825.
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- Right now i dont have the book of Hondromatidis. But as you see he has written a book of Greek Fascists, and he was in a chapter the case of "anarchist" Speras. Right now i have the book of Kostopoulos of 2016.
- In Greek :
- Στη πραγματικότητα, ο Σπέρας ήδη από τα μέσα της δεκαετίας του 1920 είχε ταυτιστεί δημόσια με τους διωκτικούς κρατικούς μηχανισμούς, καταθέτοντας ως μάρτυρας κατηγορίας στη δίκη ηγεσίας ου ΚΚΕ για το Μακεδονικό επί Πάγκαλου κι αυτοπροβαλλόμενος σαν <<προιστάμενος του συνδέσμου των συντηρητικών εργατών>> . Το 1934 μετείχε στα εγκαίνια των γραφείων του Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικού κόμματος στην εφημερίδα του οποίου αρθογραφούσε, [page 150 ends] ενώ το 1936 εμφανίζεται ως παράγοντας μιας <<Εθνικής Συντηρητικής Οργάνωσεως>>. Αξίζει ν' αναφερθεί ότι, σε αντίθεση με τους φόνους των τροτσκιστών που έμειναν κατά κανόνα αδικδήκητοι ο κατοχικος Ριζοσπάστης δεν είχε κανένα πρόβλημα για την αιχμαλωσία του <<καθάρματος Σπέρα>> από το 34ο σύνταγμα του ΕΛΑΣ, ως εξουδετέρωση κατασκόπου σταλμένου <<Από την ομάδα Λαζαρή του ΕΔΕΣ>>
- In a footnote Kostopoulos writes: Ο Λαζαρής υπήρξε πρόεδρος του αθηναικού παραρτήματος της Φασιστικής ΕΕΕ.
- translate :
- In fact, since the middle of the 1920s, Speras was publicly identified with the persecution of the state apparatuses, as a witness of accusation against the KKE leadership trial of the Macedonian during Pangalos dictatorship and self-proclaimed as "the headmaster of the conservative workers' union." In 1934 he participated in the opening of the offices of the National Socialist Party in whose newspaper he wrote, and in 1936 appeared as a factor of a << National Conservative Organization >>. It is worth mentioning that, unlike the Trotskyist killings that were generally unclaimed (my disclaimer: from the Stalinists of KKE), the Rizospastis(my disclaimer: the newspaper of KKE) during the Occupation of Greece had no problem with the capture of the << scum Speras >> from the 34th Constitution of ELAS, as the suppression of a spyman of Lazari team of EDES >>
- In footnote : Lazaris was headman of Fascist EEE section.
- -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 21:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Moved from my talk page for posterity, in case someone has more time than me to verify this source material (not
watching, please {{
ping}}
)
czar 01:15, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
I suppose he says that for members of KKE like Avraam Benaroya, Pandelis Pouliopoulos and he says for them that they were stalinists(!!!). OK no promblem. BUT i suppose you can translate and put subtitles in English. There is no claim in 2018 from NOBODY that he wasnt a memeber of fascist party in 1934. The truth is always a bitter taste. We dont need heroes and demons to write history, about the good anarchist and the evil stalinists.
-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 11:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Correction : Dimitris Troaditis is the founder (or a member with many publications) of ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english. He is an amateur historian. He or someone else from this platform before years wrote this : https://ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english/562-konstantinos-speras-the-life-and-activities-of-a-greek-anarchosyndicalist. Now he admits the connections of Speras with the Fascist Party. So even the Greek amateur historian anarchist who wrote hymn about Speras's life finally admits everything. So what are the others RS so it is written in the text of WP "according of Kostopoulos". Provide any RS that deny that orelse i will delete "according to Kostopoulos". -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 18:30, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's the citation Αντικαθεστωτικός wrote for the above Kōstopoulos quote.
Kōstopoulos, Tasos (2016). Κοκκινος Δεκεμβρης: Το Ζητημα Της Επαναστατικης Βιας [Red December: The Issue of Revolutionary Violence] (in Greek). Βιβλιόραμα. p. 150. ISBN 978-960-9548-28-1. OCLC 985007832.
czar 05:19, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
is it reasonable to write the following?Το 1934 μετείχε στα εγκαίνια των γραφείων του Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικού κόμματος στην εφημερίδα του οποίου αρθογραφούσε, [page 150 ends] ενώ το 1936 εμφανίζεται ως παράγοντας μιας <<Εθνικής Συντηρητικής Οργάνωσεως>>.
czar 08:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In the mid-1930s, Speras participated in the National Socialist Party and wrote for its newspaper, according to Tasos Kstopoulos.
@ Cinadon36, this is the Google translation. It says that Speras participated in the party's "office opening" and its newspaper. This implies participation in the organization, unless I am missing something? czar 16:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In 1934 he participated in the opening of the offices of the National Socialist Party in whose newspaper he wrote, and in 1936 appeared as a factor of a << National Conservative Organization >>.
This implies that participating the opening ceremony counts as participating in the party—is this fair and accurate, based on what Kostopoulos wrote? I purposefully didn't say Speras was "a member" because Kostopoulos did not go as far as Chondromatides. Trying to balance what's fair to the subject and source, given what's written in secondary sources. I would prefer not to use the archival newspaper to avoid original research—either a reliable, secondary source makes the party connection for us, or we should reduce it to a minor point. Overall, the article should reflect the major points written about Speras (e.g., the Seifos strike) and other lesser elements (e.g., late-life controversy) should be covered proportionately less. czar 18:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In the mid-1930s, Speras participated in the National Socialist Party and wrote for its newspaper.
Dear @ Czar:, that wouldn't be correct. Speras did not participate in the Nazi party. Speras was present at the opening ceremony on behalf of a Union and made a speech. Several other institutions were present. The conclusion that Speras was a member of Mercury's party is erroneous. 19:13, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
czar 21:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In the mid-1930s, Speras attended the opening ceremony of the National Socialist Party and wrote for its newspaper.
"[h]e fought with all his might for the emancipation of the working class, for an autonomous trade-union movement, for a society without slaves and bosses.(...) He was slandered, his work and actions were distorted and eventually he was murdered, along with dozens of other working class militants, in the name of the one and only ‘orthodox’ way to socialism."
This just a copy paste from a greek book. Exacty. I will provide later the exact page in greek. This is not something serious but just a ....copy paste and tranalate!!-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 15:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
It is within quotation marks. Cinadon36 ( talk) 15:50, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes but is just copy paste from a greek writer (not a scientist) who wrote in 2000 the book for speras in his prologue. The writer is leon. Kottis publications bibliopelagos. Not something that has any value.-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 15:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
This is the exact text. Just a copy paste from here.
Please check.--19:45, 21 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk • contribs)
The exact source is from here:
http://www.ainfos.ca/05/may/ainfos00240.html
-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 20:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Wheather Speras became a member of GNSP is a matter of debate, so let's attribute. Cinadon36 ( talk) 13:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
In greek article it so obvious that he was a fascist (there is the article of the newspaper plus the historians) that nonone made such claim. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2018 (UTC). A look in the history of the greek article, will reveal that Αντικαθεστωτικος is the main editor. [4]. A look at the references, will reveal that primary sources and blogs are heavily used. So, the claim "look what the greek article states" it is rather hypocritical. Cinadon36 ( talk) 10:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 10:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Αντικαθεστωτικός is pushing his version without waiting for a consensus. Αντικαθεστωτικός Please self revert your edit. Cinadon36 ( talk) 15:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
https://athens.indymedia.org/media/old/130413374-to-timwro-heri-tou-laoi-iaswn-handrinos.pdf
This is from the most prominent greek historian. This is his master thesis(it is free version, the book had an award). He cited Chondromatides as many prominent historians do. Also check kostopoulos.-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 17:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Can you give me some time to poke around before making claims like this? It's difficult since I don't speak Greek but I advise giving the benefit of the doubt before making declarative claims about how citation/publishing systems work in other languages, given how different they can work, unless you have added familiarity with historiography in the Greek language? No need to rush through changes and let's keep the rhetoric down until we're in agreement. czar 17:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)The claim that Chondromatides is well cited can not be proven.
Chondromatis/Chondromatidēs/Hondromatidis/ΧΟΝΔΡΟΜΑΤΙΔΗ does not appear to be widely cited.
This should give some direction. czar 20:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
If this is true and noteworthy, there should be an abundance of sources that assert as much. If not, how huge is the actual debate? For the sake of due weight/neutrality, it would be more appropriate to cite such a summative source explaining the "debate" in broad strokes to avoid having to hash out sides/specifics, as has been done above. This also assumes that there indeed are sources forthere is a huge debate in Greece on Speras
which I don't believe we've seen yet? czar 07:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)The other group is claiming that Speras did not join the specific fascist party and did not collaborate as he was in prison during that time.
In his memoirs, he says that Speras as a leader of a group of cops, he was arrest him in the conference of workers (GSEE). But i am in doubt. Should i write his opinion? Avraam Benaroya is between the legends of Greece working heroes.΅-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 23:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
I wont even comment on that. Cinadon36 ( talk) 06:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Apoifis, Nicholas (2016). "Anarcho-syndicalism in Greece". Anarchy in Athens: An Ethnography of Militancy, Emotions and Violence. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 124–. ISBN 978-1-5261-0803-6. What is that book again? Now i have the time to check it! The publication house is correct? Why we need the opinions of the friends of the writer? Is something like a travel guide in Athens and in anarchy? I think its a kind of funny what he writes about what his friend told him : “Again the communists, the authoritarian communists, murdering anarchists,” Vasili despaired. (sic) Why exactly is in English W.P about Speras? I dont understand at all. I am a bit in despair. I have provide everything, i have put the most uptodate historians about the subject and i must read what Vasili told to mr Apoifis? Is it some kind of joke? Is it a troll situation? I am writing for days everything, and i read about Vasili? Is it a kind of anarchy- denial.
Please i dont have so much time for jokes. If you have something serious to write, please write it. But i beg you, not the opinion of Vasili and his despair.
-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 00:10, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Before decades some left activists like Stinas had made a claim.
Where did Stinas write about Speras? Was it published as a personal account (primary source) or as an objective observer (secondary source)? czar 05:15, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
The footnote doesn't cite the original Stinas source so still not sure what relation Stinas has to the source (objective vs. affiliated). He doesn't strike me as a historian based on his elwp bio so I'd assume the latter. czar 06:48, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In his recollections, Agis Stinas (21) wrote that the name of Speras figured in the lists of proscriptions, drawn up by OPLA (22) alongside those of other working class militants, members of the communist Left Opposition or anarchists who opposed KKE (23).
Citation count doesn't determine reliability. Publisher pedigree, publisher reputation for fact-checking/accuracy, credibility of the author determine reliability. If the "anarchist opinion" is noteworthy, we should expect a historian to write about it. There's no use in discussing this point theoretically—if there is no passage/context from Stinas (re: Speras's party affiliation) for discussion then what is there to discuss? czar 08:02, 22 November 2018 (UTC)Stinas has more citations than Chondromatides so he is a reliable source.
The life of the "intelectual" stinas:
https://ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english/760-agis-stinas-a-greek-revolutionary I think you make things right now from your mind. Of course there is objection. Stinas wrote as a primary source because he knew Speras. -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:50, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
There is a serious problem on neutrality in the current version of the text [6]. Speras is known for his role in Serifos strike- something that is under-represented in the text. Plus some 0-cited historians are used in order to shame Speras while other well-known intellectuals that spoke in favor of him, are not represented in the article. One-sided article. Unless there is an objection, I will place a neutrality template. Cinadon36 ( talk) 07:44, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
→== Depth and major sources ==
Are there any major sources that go into depth on Speras in any language? Or are most of the sources brief allusions? Trying to determine what sources can be used to expand this article, or if it would make more sense, for example, to just cover Speras within the context of the Serifos strike article. czar 21:07, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Yeap, I 'd to merge the two articles. As for Αντικαθεστωτικός claim: It is rather simple. In order to make a valid claim that Speras was national-socialist (as it is claimed in Greek Wikipedia) you have either
You are jumping to authoritarian's left favorite conclusion by making a logical fallacy ( Association fallacy). Not everybody who writes in a certain paper is of the same ideology as the newspaper's ideology. Chomsky wrote extensively in NYT. Kropotkin wrote in Encyclopedia Britannica. The same goes to the opening ceremony of a party. Speras attended the openings on the behalf of a Union- many other Unions made a speech that day. It is common for parties to invite people from different ideological backgrounds to deliver a speech. Plus, we need contextualize Mercury's party. Have fun in trying to prove Speras was an evil nazi- there's lot of mud in this game. Hugs and kisses. Cinadon36 ( talk) 04:23, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
He wasnt in just edes but in edes of athens.(see greek wikipedia or english wikipedia for the subjcet of seperate organisations). He was in edes of athens that they were full axis collaborators. But i dont mind at all. Case closed for me about the NS writer.
I am waiting for RS from my friend Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 12:26, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
I am very proud about it: Learn about edes of athens. I think i am the one who wrote it before many years. Good job for sure https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Εθνικός_Δημοκρατικός_Ελληνικός_Σύνδεσμος#ΕΔΕΣ_Αθηνών
Only in greek. Cinadon36 please say something more to laugh.
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
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Hello friend. In Greece the name of Konstantinos Speras is well known. We can make his article in WP again correctly because the previous one had a lot of promblems. But please, friend dont delete the sources that proves that he became a well known fascist. If you have any objections about it, and you believe lies that communist forces killed him (or cut off his head) cause he was an antistalinist socialist i will be very pleased to give you full proofs that he was fascist. Just check the bibliography of Greek article and request book and page. Best regards -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 16:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hi @ Αντικαθεστωτικός, thanks for the note. Could you please share a scan of those sources— mail me or link here? (I'm trying to determine the quality of the sources.) czar 10:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- > czar
1 Speras in 1926 as a witness in court against (all) the leadership of KKE, and he accuses them of nation traitors(with the possibility to have death penalty). Not stalinists in the leadership of KKE then but Pandelis Pouliopoulos.
2 Speras as hero of Greek fascists. (dont believe what he writes cause he dont have proofs for everything, he make from his mind many things)
3 Speras with the allias of "Greek worker" wrote the history of "Greek workers" in the fascist newspaper in the logic of worker fascist logic.4 A greek right wing minor historian (but with many famous publications with good archive) wrote "ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΚΟΝΔΑΚΗΣ. Επρόκειτο για αξιωματικό σε π.δ., ο οποίος ήταν πρόεδρος της Συνομοσπονδίας Παλαιών Πολεμιστών.[...] ( Ν. Καλύβας, Ε. Ευαγγέλου, Κ. Σπέρας),. He writes about an army official who collabarate with the axis, and he had a circle of trade unionists between them...Speras. The first one Kalyvas, was in 1944 by nazis, a minister. He was killed by OPLA.
There is a lot of staff in Greek. But the big deal is that in 2018 noone says the opposite side. Only one left guy Stinas said before 30 years that Speras was an anarchist, in his memoirs he said a lot of lies and he did a lot of copy paste from anticommunist propaganda!Because he had very anger cause, stalinists killed his friends.There is a lot of noise about him in greek internet maybe from his relatives, but after the last publication of Kostopoulos (a well known left journalist) who he just repeat what greek wikipedia wrote the conversation is ended for sure.
Απόστολος Κοκμάδης was an young army official who has give interviews and he says about the end of Speras. They were together and they went to fight against National Liberation Front (Greece). Κοκμάδης later became an officer of the army of communists, while Speras executed. Not beheaded. Not killed by OPLA as the "red terror" want. In Greece there was a ridiculus myth for years that Communist Army (ELAS) was good, but Communist police (OPLA) was bad. New historians proved that as good and as bad was ELAS so was OPLA. So Speras wasnt killed by OPLA as the myth wanted for not to blame the good face ELAS army, but from Orestis a prominent "captain" of ELAS.
Just to say that Avraam Benaroya and Yannis Kordatos insist that he was police informant from 1925. Was Avraam Benaroya or Kordatos a stalinist? I dont think so. -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 12:26, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hi @ Αντικαθεστωτικός, from what I understand, you're interpreting those sources as proof that Speras identified as a fascist. That would be fine if you were a historian making a claim in your own book, but with Wikipedia, we don't make original claims like that. Instead we cite secondary sources (such as historians) who make those claims for us. So do you have a reliable, secondary source that you can quote as explicitly having said that "Speras became a fascist"? If not, we unfortunately cannot make that claim until we have a reliable source to paraphrase. By the way, I have a friend who can help with translations from Greek if need be. Appreciate your patience, czar 16:27, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- czar No. I dont say that. I gave you the sources of the archives to understand what was happened and to find the truth alone if you want, cause there is a little deny that he was facsict. For wikipedia rules: Three historians are saying that he was a Fascist. Hondromatidis, Kostopoulos and Koukounas. I gave the 2 sources in the article. Case closed for Wikipedia. Hondromatidis is saying that he was a member of Fascist party of 1936.
- Hondromatidis, had written a book about Greek fascists. See the list of the Fascists.
- -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 19:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- @ Αντικαθεστωτικός, great—I expanded the citation:
Can you scan page 161 for me and quote the part that says Speras became a member of Mercouris's party? czar 20:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)Chondromatidēs, Iakōvos P (2013). Ο αναρχικός Κωνσταντίνος Σπέρας [About the Anarchist Konstantinos Speras]. Hoi Hellēnes 'phasistes': hoi phasistikes kai ethnikososialistikes organōseis stēn Hellada tou Mesopolemou (1927–1936) Οι Έλληνες «Φασίστες». Οι Φασιστικές και Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικές οργανώσεις στην Ελλάδα του Μεσοπολέμου (1927–1936) [The Greek "Fascists": Fascist and National Socialist Organizations in Interwar Greece (1927–1936)] (in Greek). Pelasgus. p. 161. ISBN 978-960-522-356-4. OCLC 899259825.
{{ cite book}}
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- Right now i dont have the book of Hondromatidis. But as you see he has written a book of Greek Fascists, and he was in a chapter the case of "anarchist" Speras. Right now i have the book of Kostopoulos of 2016.
- In Greek :
- Στη πραγματικότητα, ο Σπέρας ήδη από τα μέσα της δεκαετίας του 1920 είχε ταυτιστεί δημόσια με τους διωκτικούς κρατικούς μηχανισμούς, καταθέτοντας ως μάρτυρας κατηγορίας στη δίκη ηγεσίας ου ΚΚΕ για το Μακεδονικό επί Πάγκαλου κι αυτοπροβαλλόμενος σαν <<προιστάμενος του συνδέσμου των συντηρητικών εργατών>> . Το 1934 μετείχε στα εγκαίνια των γραφείων του Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικού κόμματος στην εφημερίδα του οποίου αρθογραφούσε, [page 150 ends] ενώ το 1936 εμφανίζεται ως παράγοντας μιας <<Εθνικής Συντηρητικής Οργάνωσεως>>. Αξίζει ν' αναφερθεί ότι, σε αντίθεση με τους φόνους των τροτσκιστών που έμειναν κατά κανόνα αδικδήκητοι ο κατοχικος Ριζοσπάστης δεν είχε κανένα πρόβλημα για την αιχμαλωσία του <<καθάρματος Σπέρα>> από το 34ο σύνταγμα του ΕΛΑΣ, ως εξουδετέρωση κατασκόπου σταλμένου <<Από την ομάδα Λαζαρή του ΕΔΕΣ>>
- In a footnote Kostopoulos writes: Ο Λαζαρής υπήρξε πρόεδρος του αθηναικού παραρτήματος της Φασιστικής ΕΕΕ.
- translate :
- In fact, since the middle of the 1920s, Speras was publicly identified with the persecution of the state apparatuses, as a witness of accusation against the KKE leadership trial of the Macedonian during Pangalos dictatorship and self-proclaimed as "the headmaster of the conservative workers' union." In 1934 he participated in the opening of the offices of the National Socialist Party in whose newspaper he wrote, and in 1936 appeared as a factor of a << National Conservative Organization >>. It is worth mentioning that, unlike the Trotskyist killings that were generally unclaimed (my disclaimer: from the Stalinists of KKE), the Rizospastis(my disclaimer: the newspaper of KKE) during the Occupation of Greece had no problem with the capture of the << scum Speras >> from the 34th Constitution of ELAS, as the suppression of a spyman of Lazari team of EDES >>
- In footnote : Lazaris was headman of Fascist EEE section.
- -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 21:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Moved from my talk page for posterity, in case someone has more time than me to verify this source material (not
watching, please {{
ping}}
)
czar 01:15, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
I suppose he says that for members of KKE like Avraam Benaroya, Pandelis Pouliopoulos and he says for them that they were stalinists(!!!). OK no promblem. BUT i suppose you can translate and put subtitles in English. There is no claim in 2018 from NOBODY that he wasnt a memeber of fascist party in 1934. The truth is always a bitter taste. We dont need heroes and demons to write history, about the good anarchist and the evil stalinists.
-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 11:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Correction : Dimitris Troaditis is the founder (or a member with many publications) of ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english. He is an amateur historian. He or someone else from this platform before years wrote this : https://ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english/562-konstantinos-speras-the-life-and-activities-of-a-greek-anarchosyndicalist. Now he admits the connections of Speras with the Fascist Party. So even the Greek amateur historian anarchist who wrote hymn about Speras's life finally admits everything. So what are the others RS so it is written in the text of WP "according of Kostopoulos". Provide any RS that deny that orelse i will delete "according to Kostopoulos". -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 18:30, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's the citation Αντικαθεστωτικός wrote for the above Kōstopoulos quote.
Kōstopoulos, Tasos (2016). Κοκκινος Δεκεμβρης: Το Ζητημα Της Επαναστατικης Βιας [Red December: The Issue of Revolutionary Violence] (in Greek). Βιβλιόραμα. p. 150. ISBN 978-960-9548-28-1. OCLC 985007832.
czar 05:19, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
is it reasonable to write the following?Το 1934 μετείχε στα εγκαίνια των γραφείων του Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικού κόμματος στην εφημερίδα του οποίου αρθογραφούσε, [page 150 ends] ενώ το 1936 εμφανίζεται ως παράγοντας μιας <<Εθνικής Συντηρητικής Οργάνωσεως>>.
czar 08:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In the mid-1930s, Speras participated in the National Socialist Party and wrote for its newspaper, according to Tasos Kstopoulos.
@ Cinadon36, this is the Google translation. It says that Speras participated in the party's "office opening" and its newspaper. This implies participation in the organization, unless I am missing something? czar 16:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In 1934 he participated in the opening of the offices of the National Socialist Party in whose newspaper he wrote, and in 1936 appeared as a factor of a << National Conservative Organization >>.
This implies that participating the opening ceremony counts as participating in the party—is this fair and accurate, based on what Kostopoulos wrote? I purposefully didn't say Speras was "a member" because Kostopoulos did not go as far as Chondromatides. Trying to balance what's fair to the subject and source, given what's written in secondary sources. I would prefer not to use the archival newspaper to avoid original research—either a reliable, secondary source makes the party connection for us, or we should reduce it to a minor point. Overall, the article should reflect the major points written about Speras (e.g., the Seifos strike) and other lesser elements (e.g., late-life controversy) should be covered proportionately less. czar 18:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In the mid-1930s, Speras participated in the National Socialist Party and wrote for its newspaper.
Dear @ Czar:, that wouldn't be correct. Speras did not participate in the Nazi party. Speras was present at the opening ceremony on behalf of a Union and made a speech. Several other institutions were present. The conclusion that Speras was a member of Mercury's party is erroneous. 19:13, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
czar 21:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In the mid-1930s, Speras attended the opening ceremony of the National Socialist Party and wrote for its newspaper.
"[h]e fought with all his might for the emancipation of the working class, for an autonomous trade-union movement, for a society without slaves and bosses.(...) He was slandered, his work and actions were distorted and eventually he was murdered, along with dozens of other working class militants, in the name of the one and only ‘orthodox’ way to socialism."
This just a copy paste from a greek book. Exacty. I will provide later the exact page in greek. This is not something serious but just a ....copy paste and tranalate!!-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 15:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
It is within quotation marks. Cinadon36 ( talk) 15:50, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes but is just copy paste from a greek writer (not a scientist) who wrote in 2000 the book for speras in his prologue. The writer is leon. Kottis publications bibliopelagos. Not something that has any value.-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 15:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
This is the exact text. Just a copy paste from here.
Please check.--19:45, 21 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk • contribs)
The exact source is from here:
http://www.ainfos.ca/05/may/ainfos00240.html
-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 20:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Wheather Speras became a member of GNSP is a matter of debate, so let's attribute. Cinadon36 ( talk) 13:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
In greek article it so obvious that he was a fascist (there is the article of the newspaper plus the historians) that nonone made such claim. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2018 (UTC). A look in the history of the greek article, will reveal that Αντικαθεστωτικος is the main editor. [4]. A look at the references, will reveal that primary sources and blogs are heavily used. So, the claim "look what the greek article states" it is rather hypocritical. Cinadon36 ( talk) 10:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 10:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Αντικαθεστωτικός is pushing his version without waiting for a consensus. Αντικαθεστωτικός Please self revert your edit. Cinadon36 ( talk) 15:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
https://athens.indymedia.org/media/old/130413374-to-timwro-heri-tou-laoi-iaswn-handrinos.pdf
This is from the most prominent greek historian. This is his master thesis(it is free version, the book had an award). He cited Chondromatides as many prominent historians do. Also check kostopoulos.-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 17:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Can you give me some time to poke around before making claims like this? It's difficult since I don't speak Greek but I advise giving the benefit of the doubt before making declarative claims about how citation/publishing systems work in other languages, given how different they can work, unless you have added familiarity with historiography in the Greek language? No need to rush through changes and let's keep the rhetoric down until we're in agreement. czar 17:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)The claim that Chondromatides is well cited can not be proven.
Chondromatis/Chondromatidēs/Hondromatidis/ΧΟΝΔΡΟΜΑΤΙΔΗ does not appear to be widely cited.
This should give some direction. czar 20:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
If this is true and noteworthy, there should be an abundance of sources that assert as much. If not, how huge is the actual debate? For the sake of due weight/neutrality, it would be more appropriate to cite such a summative source explaining the "debate" in broad strokes to avoid having to hash out sides/specifics, as has been done above. This also assumes that there indeed are sources forthere is a huge debate in Greece on Speras
which I don't believe we've seen yet? czar 07:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)The other group is claiming that Speras did not join the specific fascist party and did not collaborate as he was in prison during that time.
In his memoirs, he says that Speras as a leader of a group of cops, he was arrest him in the conference of workers (GSEE). But i am in doubt. Should i write his opinion? Avraam Benaroya is between the legends of Greece working heroes.΅-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 23:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
I wont even comment on that. Cinadon36 ( talk) 06:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Apoifis, Nicholas (2016). "Anarcho-syndicalism in Greece". Anarchy in Athens: An Ethnography of Militancy, Emotions and Violence. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 124–. ISBN 978-1-5261-0803-6. What is that book again? Now i have the time to check it! The publication house is correct? Why we need the opinions of the friends of the writer? Is something like a travel guide in Athens and in anarchy? I think its a kind of funny what he writes about what his friend told him : “Again the communists, the authoritarian communists, murdering anarchists,” Vasili despaired. (sic) Why exactly is in English W.P about Speras? I dont understand at all. I am a bit in despair. I have provide everything, i have put the most uptodate historians about the subject and i must read what Vasili told to mr Apoifis? Is it some kind of joke? Is it a troll situation? I am writing for days everything, and i read about Vasili? Is it a kind of anarchy- denial.
Please i dont have so much time for jokes. If you have something serious to write, please write it. But i beg you, not the opinion of Vasili and his despair.
-- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 00:10, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Before decades some left activists like Stinas had made a claim.
Where did Stinas write about Speras? Was it published as a personal account (primary source) or as an objective observer (secondary source)? czar 05:15, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
The footnote doesn't cite the original Stinas source so still not sure what relation Stinas has to the source (objective vs. affiliated). He doesn't strike me as a historian based on his elwp bio so I'd assume the latter. czar 06:48, 22 November 2018 (UTC)In his recollections, Agis Stinas (21) wrote that the name of Speras figured in the lists of proscriptions, drawn up by OPLA (22) alongside those of other working class militants, members of the communist Left Opposition or anarchists who opposed KKE (23).
Citation count doesn't determine reliability. Publisher pedigree, publisher reputation for fact-checking/accuracy, credibility of the author determine reliability. If the "anarchist opinion" is noteworthy, we should expect a historian to write about it. There's no use in discussing this point theoretically—if there is no passage/context from Stinas (re: Speras's party affiliation) for discussion then what is there to discuss? czar 08:02, 22 November 2018 (UTC)Stinas has more citations than Chondromatides so he is a reliable source.
The life of the "intelectual" stinas:
https://ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english/760-agis-stinas-a-greek-revolutionary I think you make things right now from your mind. Of course there is objection. Stinas wrote as a primary source because he knew Speras. -- Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:50, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
There is a serious problem on neutrality in the current version of the text [6]. Speras is known for his role in Serifos strike- something that is under-represented in the text. Plus some 0-cited historians are used in order to shame Speras while other well-known intellectuals that spoke in favor of him, are not represented in the article. One-sided article. Unless there is an objection, I will place a neutrality template. Cinadon36 ( talk) 07:44, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
→== Depth and major sources ==
Are there any major sources that go into depth on Speras in any language? Or are most of the sources brief allusions? Trying to determine what sources can be used to expand this article, or if it would make more sense, for example, to just cover Speras within the context of the Serifos strike article. czar 21:07, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Yeap, I 'd to merge the two articles. As for Αντικαθεστωτικός claim: It is rather simple. In order to make a valid claim that Speras was national-socialist (as it is claimed in Greek Wikipedia) you have either
You are jumping to authoritarian's left favorite conclusion by making a logical fallacy ( Association fallacy). Not everybody who writes in a certain paper is of the same ideology as the newspaper's ideology. Chomsky wrote extensively in NYT. Kropotkin wrote in Encyclopedia Britannica. The same goes to the opening ceremony of a party. Speras attended the openings on the behalf of a Union- many other Unions made a speech that day. It is common for parties to invite people from different ideological backgrounds to deliver a speech. Plus, we need contextualize Mercury's party. Have fun in trying to prove Speras was an evil nazi- there's lot of mud in this game. Hugs and kisses. Cinadon36 ( talk) 04:23, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
He wasnt in just edes but in edes of athens.(see greek wikipedia or english wikipedia for the subjcet of seperate organisations). He was in edes of athens that they were full axis collaborators. But i dont mind at all. Case closed for me about the NS writer.
I am waiting for RS from my friend Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 12:26, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
I am very proud about it: Learn about edes of athens. I think i am the one who wrote it before many years. Good job for sure https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Εθνικός_Δημοκρατικός_Ελληνικός_Σύνδεσμος#ΕΔΕΣ_Αθηνών
Only in greek. Cinadon36 please say something more to laugh.
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)