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No, it was a perfectly good argument. On Wikipedia, we aren't supposed to include original research, and we shouldn't assume things. Since it seems to me that you are assuming that the source is biased, you are in the wrong to change it according to how you are interpreting the information given. If you look at the reference literally, there is no reason to believe that they are biased, so you shouldn't make it seem like it is so, when that is not the case.-- 十 八 02:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for not noticing this until now.
I am not assuming that Seven Seas is a biased source. Rather, I think that it is a plain fact.
1) Seven Seas is one party involved in this very controversial matter in the manga community.
2) Claiming that Watashiya "demanded" the title Nymphet helps Seven Seas' case.
3) Therefore, Seven Seas is a biased source.
Furthermore, the Seven Seas blog you reference doesn't even claim that Watashiya made the demand. Instead, it claims that Futabasha claims that Watashiya made the demand. Very dubious. Forweg 09:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
One does not need proof for 2+2=4. It is fact. I would really love to hear how my three points above can be disproven.
Also, the article you link to also says "the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say." That sentence wasn't adhering to what the source said. Seven Seas does not claim that that Watashiya made the demand. Instead, it claims that Futabasha claims that Watashiya made the demand. Therefore, the sentence was not adhering to what the source said. That violates Wikipedia policy.
One must analyze the sources in order to determine if they are reliable. This is a cornerstone of Wikipedia. Forweg 09:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
"and 18 went en-garde! then, hai-yah! and it was all over. All that was left in its wake was destruction" Oh, on a side note - what is the "it" reffering to in 十八 first statment: "No, it was a perfectly good argument?" (presuming that the article was being voted for deletion because it was thought to be biased?) 24.19.25.118 11:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but, up until chapter 30, I have not seen what the article claims: "It is also been hinted that he has already been sexually abusing Rin"... so I'm putting the phrase under comments. Also, I think it would be smart to remove the text "As the story progresses it becomes clear that he is slowly losing his mind and is becoming increasingly delusional about someday being romantically involved with Rin" bacause, even tho it is HINTED, it is not spoken out loud. It could well lead into an unexpected answer in the manga. What I'm trying to say is... at least Reiji's part of the article seems kind of biased and uses some weasel words, so... maybe we could improve that. Guille ^.~ 02:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I find this rather disconcerting. A number of us are currently implying that Reiji, Rin's "guardian", has already made a mark, so to speak, on his potential partner. BUT we must also take note that he is just using Rin as a "substitute" for his inability to cope with Aki's death. A vassal, in other words, of Reiji's outpouring of grief and later culpability for Aki's sudden passing.
We must stress this point. -- Animeronin ( talk) 07:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
You know what? I think you are right. I was speculating... of course, it seems obvious, but with Watashiya-sensei it is speculation until solid proofs are given... so yeah, I'm removing the hickeys again. We'll have to wait until the last week of february to maybe be sure, tho... Guille ^.~ ( talk) 19:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
OK... I don't know how much time it has been there and who put it there, but... why is the article categorized as Child Porn?! I mean, come on, that's obviously biased... so, I deleted the category markup. Guille ^.~ 21:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed the tag yet again. Is there any way to lock the categorization section down and prevent random people from adding this tag? This is getting really annoying now. Lunar Archivist ( talk) 17:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Added a commentary there. It asks who ever is adding the category to come here first. Let's hope for an explanation this time... hopefully... Guille ^.~ ( talk) 04:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
i was just wondering and wanted to ask the kind people who update the character bio, that knowing that the teacher and Rin are like main - main characters, but how come there is not much information about them, while the others who are less shown have a bit more, to way more one them. i mean if there is a rule to this king of thing let me know so i learn something new,anyways was just wondering. Chimasternmay 22:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I am the individual who wrote the section on "Lolicon as a storytelling device" in an attempt to counterbalance the "Controversy" section concerning the cancellation of the manga's publication as well as the remainder of the article and provide context. The emphasis in this Wikipedia entry is placed on the same area as the controversy surrounding it, namely the relationship between Daisuke Aoki and Rin Kokonoe, which does a disservice to the manga considering that the story has advanced beyond that and become a complex psychological study of the main characters and their interactions with one another rather than an ad nauseum rehashing of the idea of a naive grade school teacher being sexually harrassed by a coquettish, mischievous student of his.
I know that neutrality is paramount at Wikipedia, but the "radioactivity" of the subject matter at hand has most people who read the short summary of the series automatically assume the worst, and this can only be counterbalanced by providing context, which is what I have tried to do. Lunar Archivist 04:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I refuse to get sucked into international politics and finger-pointing. The last thing we need is a "The neutrality of this section is disputed." tag to be added to the talk page for an article whose neutrality is being disputed. ;) What personally annoys me is that I spent several days trying to make the section I wrote as neutral and ambiguous as possible. Instead of going the "pedophile apologist" route by dismissing any questionable scenes as figments of a reader's dirty-minded imagination or their looking too much into things, I acknowledged their existence directly and either linked to articles explaining their purpose in the narrative or provided examples to dispel purely negative interpretations and balance things out, leaving readers to come to their own conclusions with the new information provided. I purposely avoided touching any issues that could be even remotely linked to an opinion, such as:
And, even after doing all this, I still got slapped with the damn tag... Lunar Archivist 17:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the compliments and kind words of support, Guille. As for why the tag was placed, I suspect it was done for the same reason that the article was briefly classified under the "child pornography" umbrella and the ones cited in the section I wrote. The manga's viewpoint of child sexuality (however much the story may distort reality overall) is unpopular and makes it a prime target for censorship. It's kind of ironic that the section is proving one side of the argument just by being there... :) Lunar Archivist 17:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Animeronin. As I mentioned to Guille in my previous post on the matter, I find it kind of ironic that the section I wrote to try and balance out the article and bring neutrality to the discussion concerning the series in general is itself proving to be mildly controversial.
I'm no social psychologist, anthropologist, or anything of the sort, but I think the fact that so many people's feathers are ruffled by the author's "audacity" to not only suggest that a May-December romance - perhaps closer to February in this case ;) - as extreme as this might even exist within the series but also that it could be completely devoid of the stereotypical emotional manipulation, advantage-taking, and coercion often associated with such relationships involved speaks volumes. (The whole "evil adult seduces innocent child" cliché was actually used in the non-canonical precursor to the series of the same name, where Rin outmaneuvers the pedophile principal of her school in a sting operation, using herself as bait, when Aoki initially dismisses her suspicions based on her established sexual mischievousness.) Oddly enough, the fact that the characters are actively seen struggling to reconcile their feelings with social expections, norms, and acceptability - Aoki actively resists all of Rin's flirtations and Reiji, creepy and delusional though he may be, at least has enough self-restraint to "wait" until Rin comes of age before making a move on her - seems to be lost on a lot of people.
I suspect that the "real" issue people have with this series is that it subtly raises questions about something Rin herself touches upon when she tearfully comments at one point that, "Aoki only pays attention to me because I'm a child, but he also doesn't pay attention to me because I'm a child." There's this dichotomy in child psychology today where, while the welfare and emotions of a child are considered extremely important, there's this tendency to call into question, if not downright dismiss or condemn, a child's interpretations of his or her own feelings if they deviate significantly from what adults believe the "expected" or "proper" response should be. Rin is this dilemma personified: she has the feelings of an adult female (what Aoki referred to at one point as her "premature heart"), certainly has the sexual knowledge of an adult female, and definitely has more life experience than most of the adults in the series due to the losses and hardships she's endured in her nine brief years of existence. But she is a child and has the mind of one and thus lacks the level of cognitive development required to properly and constructively deal with it all. So she engages in "black box thinking"; by attempting to make her teacher fall in love with her based solely on her knowledge of sexual mechanics from various dubious sources. This strategy is akin to trying to develop a romantic relationship with someone of the opposite sex based solely on information gleamed from hardcore porn movies: doomed to spectacular failure. What makes Rin's situation especially tragic is that her love for Aoki appears to be genuine, but no one takes her seriously because of her age, causing her endless grief and frustration.
In any case, Matthew Skala's critique of vox populi child sexuality and the controversy surrounding this series that I linked on the main article page summarizes the points I've argued here a lot more clearly and concisely.
I realize that this lengthy post is out of place in a Wikipedia discussion section. My decision to write all this out here in spite of that was to demonstrate to anyone at odds with my section that I really did put a lot of thought and effort into maintaining neutrality despite my clear bias on this series and its issues, no matter what they may think. *gets off soapbox* Lunar Archivist 19:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for that "lengthy post". I found it very educational and entertaining. Posts such as these are the reason why i keep on reading wikipedia talkpages. Rock on! Kratosxxx234 ( talk) 15:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.39.54.152 ( talk)
After having this independently edited out by both Servant Saber and Blue Eyes Gold Dragon, I've decided to set up this discussion topic here in response and have restored the point in the article for the time being.
I'm not quite sure how this point advances a point of view or is in any way inaccurate. If Rin and Kuro's level of sexual knowledge or behavior were in any way typical or representative of that of a significant number of nine-year-olds in the real world, I doubt that Kodomo no Jikan would've become the lightning rod for controversy that it has. Also, I don't think that anyone can debate that the series is "a comedy aiming to entertain the audience by means of an unlikely and improbable situation with verbal humor that includes sexual innuendo and word play", a description which fits the current Wikipedia definition of a farce.
Personally, I see this as a non-issue and vote to keep it in. Any opinions either way would be welcome. Lunar Archivist ( talk) 15:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
See, now I understand what you meant by POV Servant Saber. A short comment describing the edit didn't quite make what you were trying to say clear to me. :)
The word "inappropriate" has been removed and replaced with the more neutral "broad", which describes the situation just as well. Lunar Archivist 14:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I initially heard that Japan's age of consent was only 14, but is apparently 16 as referenced by Kononoe Aki in the flashbacks and at the end of chapter 31. With an earlier age of consent comes earlier sex ed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.233.120 ( talk) 04:43, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
there is no Censoring on the DVD version as seen [ [1]] here and [ [2]]here -- Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 10:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that sentence is a bit ungrammatical as 'whom' is the objective case of the nominative 'who' and in this case it is clearly the subject of the sentence and of the verb finite verb 'has'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.222.243 ( talk) 14:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I realize this isn't quite what the talk page was intended for, but this was too good to pass up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/snh02mf9.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/snh03dn4.png
Kaworu Watashiya decided to parody herself by creating a reversed-gender version of the series as a (very) short story. Enjoy! :)
Lunar Archivist (
talk)
05:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if any of the "regular" editors of this page - such as Juhachi, WeirdGuille, and Animeronin - would mind if I started rewriting the article and episode summaries a little to make the tone more consistent throughout. Also, do you know of any way we could add short summaries of the manga chapters somewhere in this article or create a separate page (assuming this is even a good idea in the first place)? Lunar Archivist ( talk) 05:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm being helpful (because I basically don't understand japanese), but here's the official DVD page: http://www.kojika-anime.com/dvd.html (but it looks better if you go first to http://www.kojika-anime.com/products.html ) Guille ^.~ ( talk) 20:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all let me clarify this: grade, along with page, volume, and chapter (all of which had been capitalized in a previous verison) are not proper nouns, so they do not deserve to be capitalized; it's just standard English. Second, I was merely copying the "unpublished chapters" list from List of Yotsuba&! chapters, but if you already have something in the works for volume 5, that would work too (probably better actually).-- 十 八 02:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed "Lolicon as a storytelling device" as it is nothing more than original research and POV. As stated by its writer in a post above, it was made to counterbalance the "Controversy" section. But it's against wikipedia policy (and also unencyclopedic) to counterbalance statements from third-party sources with editors' own analysis. It doesn't matter if examples from the series itself have been used, this is still OR, and POV. Want this section back? Then write a proper one, with statements from third-party sources. But without such sources this kind of thing has no place here. Kazu-kun ( talk) 22:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
What's this? Second season is an OVA series? Please check AnimeNewsNetwork and the official website to confirm (or not), and then update this article based on your findings. Also, I believe there may have been a video release that has not been mentioned. Please check the official website and likewise update the article on any required updates. Animeresearcher ( talk) 06:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Right turn only vol 1 review -- KrebMarkt 17:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The article looks like a lot of them do: a good amount of content, but somewhat unorganized, lacking as a coherent explanation of the subject. It doesn't really give the readers a good idea of what it's all about. I haven't seen Kodomo no Jikan, so with the various references to controversy, censored shots, and a cancelled release, permit me to be direct:
Does either the manga or the anime depict fucking kids, kids in other, overtly sexual situations, kids being presented as fuckable whether in-story or to the audience, or an expressed desire to fuck kids? -- Kiz o r 23:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
So I've come to realize no where online is there an answer to "Is this legal to read in the US online?" It seems like something most people that come across this would wonder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.96.113 ( talk) 02:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Unauthorized streaming of copyrighted content is legal in the US and this comic does not contain any depictions of explicit sexual conducts so it is not obscene under 18 U.S.Code § 1466A. This content is obviously not child porn according to 18 U.S.Code § 2256 because it doesn't contain any actual minors. So it seems reading this in the US online is legal under federal laws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.160.29.10 ( talk) 13:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
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After reading 9 volumes of this manga i fail to see why there is the lolicon tag in. Is a slice of life and more a seinen manga with drama and comedy elements like the original author stated. Manga-updates has the correct tags too. Lolicon is not a genre is japanese media but a word that mean "lolita complex" always related to ero manga and more specifically to a behaviour of someone. Hentai is not a genre too but a behaviour. The correct tags are: [Drama], [Comedy], [Slice of life], [Romance] and [Seinen]. These define tha manga itself. In Japanese wiki you can read better about the genre and explanation. Reikasama ( talk) 10:26, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Fine, sorry for incorrect links before. Still lolicon is not a genre and define a behaviour, you can use kojikan japanese wikipedia page as source. The terminology doesn't exist in japanese anime and manga media. Also this is a reliable source on MAL [6] and ANN [7] as correct tags. ANN and MAL are reliable and updated source. Still i don't see the big problem here to use properly tags and lock the page? Really?
Reikasama ( talk) 14:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I will add the following tags to the main page: [Drama][Comedy][Romance][Slice of Life], picked up from MAL and ANN articles about this specific serie. Fell free to add tags but the lolicon one. You can suggest to remove too but please specify why is not correct (for this i hope you have read the manga till volume 9 because content vary from volume to volume with different undertones). You can use "loli manga" or "loli" too if you want so much specify the side content. Thanks. Reikasama ( talk) 21:45, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
The main problem is the definition of Lolicon itself. While the sources describe lolicon as the depiction/attraction of/to minors of a certain age (sexual or not), it is often used (in fan terms) to indicate drawings with sexual/pornographic background with child like characteristics or characters itself (mostly flat chested, despite of fictional age). If you go after the first definition, which is usually found inside the sources, then Kodomo no Jikan is part of the lolicon genre. This doesn't mean that it is illegal or pornographic. If you go after the second "definition" then you can come to the conclusion that it isn't, since the manga/anime-series does not show any sexual relationships or pornographic content (at least up till now).
I personally think that Kodomo no Jikan falls into the genre of lolicon, because it plays with this theme all the time. It's right at the borderline between ecchi and hentai, but this has nothing to do with the definition of lolicon itself, a word which has different meanings depending on context. The genre has a much wider scope then what the typical anime/mange fan means inside conversations. You could use this word to describe a person with interest in minors, a work with such content or a character-type. -- Niabot ( talk) 01:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
All that aside, it is still considered a genre in the English-world and the primary audience is English. As long as there is no reliable source disputing its a lolicon manga, that's what we use (and those sources Reikasama pointed out aren't reliable for Wikipedia. My personal feeling is it isn't lolicon because its not hentai and its not trying to glorify or promote sexual relations with young girls. Having it in a manga doesn't mean it promotes something. 陣 内 Jinnai 19:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
The link you provide don't state that lolicon is a genre since the link that i posted on the same website consider the better terminology [lolita manga]. Also i don't see what you claiming for, can you please provide me DIRECT copy paste where is clearly stated that "lolicon is a genre" and kojikan belong to this genre? The link posted in the main article point to ANN, ANN provide correct tags in the encyclopedia page and this manga here is not tagged in this way. I correct the article again with my sources till you provide me link with reliablre sources over the mine. Reikasama ( talk) 17:32, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Since this page on ANN [19] stated the same current tags as here i agree with your corrent edit. Reikasama ( talk) 12:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Reikasama is incorrect; the use of the Lolicon tag was correct due to the fact that Lolicon is a genre in the same way hentai is a genre. And in addition, the claims of the word Lolicon being of Japanese origin are incorrect; the word is an English loanword, coming from 'Lolita Complex', which refer's to the book 'Lolita'. Lolicon is a multi-definiton word, and the previous usage was correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.241.107 ( talk) 02:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
I must wonder why you added lolicon as a genre. So far i have read every chapter and the work itself could be hardly considered as belonging to the "lolicon genre". The story is based around the lolicon scenario, having it as a main topic, but at the same time it isn't comparable to works that really belong to the "lolicon genre". I doubt that the author of the source (can we call it a source?) had the intention to put Kodomo no Jikan in the same group as other lolicon works. In short: It discusses the genre, but it is not part of the genre itself. For example: YuruYuri has yuri as the main topic, but does not follow the path of a typical yuri story. It is more or less a parody on yuri. -- /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ 署名の宣言 07:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Thinking we should include a disambiguation statement for this series from 2000. It was a 6 OVA hentai anime series also called 'Kodomo no Jikan' which came out 5 years before this KnJ was even a manga. It seems the 'forbidden time' might've just been an American retitle (probably to avoid problems with something called 'a child's time' being a title for a hentai OVA? Ranze ( talk) 21:25, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
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It's time to put an end to this dispute. I, for one, believe that Kodomo no Jikan is undeniably lolicon, as it is blatantly pedophilic in nature. Why? Because of the sexualization of 9 year old girls, the forbidden relationship between the 23 year old teacher (the main character) and his 9 year old student (they even engage in sexual intercourse in the manga's final chapter), and the fact that this stance is further validated by an industry professional, Zac Bertschy, who writes for Anime News Network. Quoting his Answerman entry, " This is - I think, anyway - the first lolicon title that's explicit enough to be released here with shrinkwrap, so the potential for danger is probably higher than it is with yaoi manga, but for right now I'm not sure I'd be panicked about this release." RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 01:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC). RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 01:07, 30 June 2019 (UTC). Sk8erPrince ( talk) 13:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Why? Filip Mutapčić ( talk) 13:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm wondering what is the source for Kodomo no Jikan having a light novel - I've looked through the WWW far and wide, even using Japanese words and nothing came up for a LN. No stores sell it, there is no external website referencing it. I think I'm not mistaken and this is a piece of media different than the manga itself, as it is listed as published apart from the main series on a different date (2012). I was just curious about who added this entry to the Wiki page and where did they get knowledge of it from. Thanks for your attention. 193.207.200.164 ( talk) 18:04, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
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No, it was a perfectly good argument. On Wikipedia, we aren't supposed to include original research, and we shouldn't assume things. Since it seems to me that you are assuming that the source is biased, you are in the wrong to change it according to how you are interpreting the information given. If you look at the reference literally, there is no reason to believe that they are biased, so you shouldn't make it seem like it is so, when that is not the case.-- 十 八 02:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for not noticing this until now.
I am not assuming that Seven Seas is a biased source. Rather, I think that it is a plain fact.
1) Seven Seas is one party involved in this very controversial matter in the manga community.
2) Claiming that Watashiya "demanded" the title Nymphet helps Seven Seas' case.
3) Therefore, Seven Seas is a biased source.
Furthermore, the Seven Seas blog you reference doesn't even claim that Watashiya made the demand. Instead, it claims that Futabasha claims that Watashiya made the demand. Very dubious. Forweg 09:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
One does not need proof for 2+2=4. It is fact. I would really love to hear how my three points above can be disproven.
Also, the article you link to also says "the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say." That sentence wasn't adhering to what the source said. Seven Seas does not claim that that Watashiya made the demand. Instead, it claims that Futabasha claims that Watashiya made the demand. Therefore, the sentence was not adhering to what the source said. That violates Wikipedia policy.
One must analyze the sources in order to determine if they are reliable. This is a cornerstone of Wikipedia. Forweg 09:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
"and 18 went en-garde! then, hai-yah! and it was all over. All that was left in its wake was destruction" Oh, on a side note - what is the "it" reffering to in 十八 first statment: "No, it was a perfectly good argument?" (presuming that the article was being voted for deletion because it was thought to be biased?) 24.19.25.118 11:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but, up until chapter 30, I have not seen what the article claims: "It is also been hinted that he has already been sexually abusing Rin"... so I'm putting the phrase under comments. Also, I think it would be smart to remove the text "As the story progresses it becomes clear that he is slowly losing his mind and is becoming increasingly delusional about someday being romantically involved with Rin" bacause, even tho it is HINTED, it is not spoken out loud. It could well lead into an unexpected answer in the manga. What I'm trying to say is... at least Reiji's part of the article seems kind of biased and uses some weasel words, so... maybe we could improve that. Guille ^.~ 02:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I find this rather disconcerting. A number of us are currently implying that Reiji, Rin's "guardian", has already made a mark, so to speak, on his potential partner. BUT we must also take note that he is just using Rin as a "substitute" for his inability to cope with Aki's death. A vassal, in other words, of Reiji's outpouring of grief and later culpability for Aki's sudden passing.
We must stress this point. -- Animeronin ( talk) 07:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
You know what? I think you are right. I was speculating... of course, it seems obvious, but with Watashiya-sensei it is speculation until solid proofs are given... so yeah, I'm removing the hickeys again. We'll have to wait until the last week of february to maybe be sure, tho... Guille ^.~ ( talk) 19:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
OK... I don't know how much time it has been there and who put it there, but... why is the article categorized as Child Porn?! I mean, come on, that's obviously biased... so, I deleted the category markup. Guille ^.~ 21:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed the tag yet again. Is there any way to lock the categorization section down and prevent random people from adding this tag? This is getting really annoying now. Lunar Archivist ( talk) 17:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Added a commentary there. It asks who ever is adding the category to come here first. Let's hope for an explanation this time... hopefully... Guille ^.~ ( talk) 04:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
i was just wondering and wanted to ask the kind people who update the character bio, that knowing that the teacher and Rin are like main - main characters, but how come there is not much information about them, while the others who are less shown have a bit more, to way more one them. i mean if there is a rule to this king of thing let me know so i learn something new,anyways was just wondering. Chimasternmay 22:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I am the individual who wrote the section on "Lolicon as a storytelling device" in an attempt to counterbalance the "Controversy" section concerning the cancellation of the manga's publication as well as the remainder of the article and provide context. The emphasis in this Wikipedia entry is placed on the same area as the controversy surrounding it, namely the relationship between Daisuke Aoki and Rin Kokonoe, which does a disservice to the manga considering that the story has advanced beyond that and become a complex psychological study of the main characters and their interactions with one another rather than an ad nauseum rehashing of the idea of a naive grade school teacher being sexually harrassed by a coquettish, mischievous student of his.
I know that neutrality is paramount at Wikipedia, but the "radioactivity" of the subject matter at hand has most people who read the short summary of the series automatically assume the worst, and this can only be counterbalanced by providing context, which is what I have tried to do. Lunar Archivist 04:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I refuse to get sucked into international politics and finger-pointing. The last thing we need is a "The neutrality of this section is disputed." tag to be added to the talk page for an article whose neutrality is being disputed. ;) What personally annoys me is that I spent several days trying to make the section I wrote as neutral and ambiguous as possible. Instead of going the "pedophile apologist" route by dismissing any questionable scenes as figments of a reader's dirty-minded imagination or their looking too much into things, I acknowledged their existence directly and either linked to articles explaining their purpose in the narrative or provided examples to dispel purely negative interpretations and balance things out, leaving readers to come to their own conclusions with the new information provided. I purposely avoided touching any issues that could be even remotely linked to an opinion, such as:
And, even after doing all this, I still got slapped with the damn tag... Lunar Archivist 17:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the compliments and kind words of support, Guille. As for why the tag was placed, I suspect it was done for the same reason that the article was briefly classified under the "child pornography" umbrella and the ones cited in the section I wrote. The manga's viewpoint of child sexuality (however much the story may distort reality overall) is unpopular and makes it a prime target for censorship. It's kind of ironic that the section is proving one side of the argument just by being there... :) Lunar Archivist 17:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Animeronin. As I mentioned to Guille in my previous post on the matter, I find it kind of ironic that the section I wrote to try and balance out the article and bring neutrality to the discussion concerning the series in general is itself proving to be mildly controversial.
I'm no social psychologist, anthropologist, or anything of the sort, but I think the fact that so many people's feathers are ruffled by the author's "audacity" to not only suggest that a May-December romance - perhaps closer to February in this case ;) - as extreme as this might even exist within the series but also that it could be completely devoid of the stereotypical emotional manipulation, advantage-taking, and coercion often associated with such relationships involved speaks volumes. (The whole "evil adult seduces innocent child" cliché was actually used in the non-canonical precursor to the series of the same name, where Rin outmaneuvers the pedophile principal of her school in a sting operation, using herself as bait, when Aoki initially dismisses her suspicions based on her established sexual mischievousness.) Oddly enough, the fact that the characters are actively seen struggling to reconcile their feelings with social expections, norms, and acceptability - Aoki actively resists all of Rin's flirtations and Reiji, creepy and delusional though he may be, at least has enough self-restraint to "wait" until Rin comes of age before making a move on her - seems to be lost on a lot of people.
I suspect that the "real" issue people have with this series is that it subtly raises questions about something Rin herself touches upon when she tearfully comments at one point that, "Aoki only pays attention to me because I'm a child, but he also doesn't pay attention to me because I'm a child." There's this dichotomy in child psychology today where, while the welfare and emotions of a child are considered extremely important, there's this tendency to call into question, if not downright dismiss or condemn, a child's interpretations of his or her own feelings if they deviate significantly from what adults believe the "expected" or "proper" response should be. Rin is this dilemma personified: she has the feelings of an adult female (what Aoki referred to at one point as her "premature heart"), certainly has the sexual knowledge of an adult female, and definitely has more life experience than most of the adults in the series due to the losses and hardships she's endured in her nine brief years of existence. But she is a child and has the mind of one and thus lacks the level of cognitive development required to properly and constructively deal with it all. So she engages in "black box thinking"; by attempting to make her teacher fall in love with her based solely on her knowledge of sexual mechanics from various dubious sources. This strategy is akin to trying to develop a romantic relationship with someone of the opposite sex based solely on information gleamed from hardcore porn movies: doomed to spectacular failure. What makes Rin's situation especially tragic is that her love for Aoki appears to be genuine, but no one takes her seriously because of her age, causing her endless grief and frustration.
In any case, Matthew Skala's critique of vox populi child sexuality and the controversy surrounding this series that I linked on the main article page summarizes the points I've argued here a lot more clearly and concisely.
I realize that this lengthy post is out of place in a Wikipedia discussion section. My decision to write all this out here in spite of that was to demonstrate to anyone at odds with my section that I really did put a lot of thought and effort into maintaining neutrality despite my clear bias on this series and its issues, no matter what they may think. *gets off soapbox* Lunar Archivist 19:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for that "lengthy post". I found it very educational and entertaining. Posts such as these are the reason why i keep on reading wikipedia talkpages. Rock on! Kratosxxx234 ( talk) 15:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.39.54.152 ( talk)
After having this independently edited out by both Servant Saber and Blue Eyes Gold Dragon, I've decided to set up this discussion topic here in response and have restored the point in the article for the time being.
I'm not quite sure how this point advances a point of view or is in any way inaccurate. If Rin and Kuro's level of sexual knowledge or behavior were in any way typical or representative of that of a significant number of nine-year-olds in the real world, I doubt that Kodomo no Jikan would've become the lightning rod for controversy that it has. Also, I don't think that anyone can debate that the series is "a comedy aiming to entertain the audience by means of an unlikely and improbable situation with verbal humor that includes sexual innuendo and word play", a description which fits the current Wikipedia definition of a farce.
Personally, I see this as a non-issue and vote to keep it in. Any opinions either way would be welcome. Lunar Archivist ( talk) 15:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
See, now I understand what you meant by POV Servant Saber. A short comment describing the edit didn't quite make what you were trying to say clear to me. :)
The word "inappropriate" has been removed and replaced with the more neutral "broad", which describes the situation just as well. Lunar Archivist 14:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I initially heard that Japan's age of consent was only 14, but is apparently 16 as referenced by Kononoe Aki in the flashbacks and at the end of chapter 31. With an earlier age of consent comes earlier sex ed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.233.120 ( talk) 04:43, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
there is no Censoring on the DVD version as seen [ [1]] here and [ [2]]here -- Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 10:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that sentence is a bit ungrammatical as 'whom' is the objective case of the nominative 'who' and in this case it is clearly the subject of the sentence and of the verb finite verb 'has'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.222.243 ( talk) 14:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I realize this isn't quite what the talk page was intended for, but this was too good to pass up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/snh02mf9.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/snh03dn4.png
Kaworu Watashiya decided to parody herself by creating a reversed-gender version of the series as a (very) short story. Enjoy! :)
Lunar Archivist (
talk)
05:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if any of the "regular" editors of this page - such as Juhachi, WeirdGuille, and Animeronin - would mind if I started rewriting the article and episode summaries a little to make the tone more consistent throughout. Also, do you know of any way we could add short summaries of the manga chapters somewhere in this article or create a separate page (assuming this is even a good idea in the first place)? Lunar Archivist ( talk) 05:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm being helpful (because I basically don't understand japanese), but here's the official DVD page: http://www.kojika-anime.com/dvd.html (but it looks better if you go first to http://www.kojika-anime.com/products.html ) Guille ^.~ ( talk) 20:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all let me clarify this: grade, along with page, volume, and chapter (all of which had been capitalized in a previous verison) are not proper nouns, so they do not deserve to be capitalized; it's just standard English. Second, I was merely copying the "unpublished chapters" list from List of Yotsuba&! chapters, but if you already have something in the works for volume 5, that would work too (probably better actually).-- 十 八 02:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed "Lolicon as a storytelling device" as it is nothing more than original research and POV. As stated by its writer in a post above, it was made to counterbalance the "Controversy" section. But it's against wikipedia policy (and also unencyclopedic) to counterbalance statements from third-party sources with editors' own analysis. It doesn't matter if examples from the series itself have been used, this is still OR, and POV. Want this section back? Then write a proper one, with statements from third-party sources. But without such sources this kind of thing has no place here. Kazu-kun ( talk) 22:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
What's this? Second season is an OVA series? Please check AnimeNewsNetwork and the official website to confirm (or not), and then update this article based on your findings. Also, I believe there may have been a video release that has not been mentioned. Please check the official website and likewise update the article on any required updates. Animeresearcher ( talk) 06:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Right turn only vol 1 review -- KrebMarkt 17:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The article looks like a lot of them do: a good amount of content, but somewhat unorganized, lacking as a coherent explanation of the subject. It doesn't really give the readers a good idea of what it's all about. I haven't seen Kodomo no Jikan, so with the various references to controversy, censored shots, and a cancelled release, permit me to be direct:
Does either the manga or the anime depict fucking kids, kids in other, overtly sexual situations, kids being presented as fuckable whether in-story or to the audience, or an expressed desire to fuck kids? -- Kiz o r 23:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
So I've come to realize no where online is there an answer to "Is this legal to read in the US online?" It seems like something most people that come across this would wonder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.96.113 ( talk) 02:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Unauthorized streaming of copyrighted content is legal in the US and this comic does not contain any depictions of explicit sexual conducts so it is not obscene under 18 U.S.Code § 1466A. This content is obviously not child porn according to 18 U.S.Code § 2256 because it doesn't contain any actual minors. So it seems reading this in the US online is legal under federal laws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.160.29.10 ( talk) 13:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
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After reading 9 volumes of this manga i fail to see why there is the lolicon tag in. Is a slice of life and more a seinen manga with drama and comedy elements like the original author stated. Manga-updates has the correct tags too. Lolicon is not a genre is japanese media but a word that mean "lolita complex" always related to ero manga and more specifically to a behaviour of someone. Hentai is not a genre too but a behaviour. The correct tags are: [Drama], [Comedy], [Slice of life], [Romance] and [Seinen]. These define tha manga itself. In Japanese wiki you can read better about the genre and explanation. Reikasama ( talk) 10:26, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Fine, sorry for incorrect links before. Still lolicon is not a genre and define a behaviour, you can use kojikan japanese wikipedia page as source. The terminology doesn't exist in japanese anime and manga media. Also this is a reliable source on MAL [6] and ANN [7] as correct tags. ANN and MAL are reliable and updated source. Still i don't see the big problem here to use properly tags and lock the page? Really?
Reikasama ( talk) 14:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I will add the following tags to the main page: [Drama][Comedy][Romance][Slice of Life], picked up from MAL and ANN articles about this specific serie. Fell free to add tags but the lolicon one. You can suggest to remove too but please specify why is not correct (for this i hope you have read the manga till volume 9 because content vary from volume to volume with different undertones). You can use "loli manga" or "loli" too if you want so much specify the side content. Thanks. Reikasama ( talk) 21:45, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
The main problem is the definition of Lolicon itself. While the sources describe lolicon as the depiction/attraction of/to minors of a certain age (sexual or not), it is often used (in fan terms) to indicate drawings with sexual/pornographic background with child like characteristics or characters itself (mostly flat chested, despite of fictional age). If you go after the first definition, which is usually found inside the sources, then Kodomo no Jikan is part of the lolicon genre. This doesn't mean that it is illegal or pornographic. If you go after the second "definition" then you can come to the conclusion that it isn't, since the manga/anime-series does not show any sexual relationships or pornographic content (at least up till now).
I personally think that Kodomo no Jikan falls into the genre of lolicon, because it plays with this theme all the time. It's right at the borderline between ecchi and hentai, but this has nothing to do with the definition of lolicon itself, a word which has different meanings depending on context. The genre has a much wider scope then what the typical anime/mange fan means inside conversations. You could use this word to describe a person with interest in minors, a work with such content or a character-type. -- Niabot ( talk) 01:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
All that aside, it is still considered a genre in the English-world and the primary audience is English. As long as there is no reliable source disputing its a lolicon manga, that's what we use (and those sources Reikasama pointed out aren't reliable for Wikipedia. My personal feeling is it isn't lolicon because its not hentai and its not trying to glorify or promote sexual relations with young girls. Having it in a manga doesn't mean it promotes something. 陣 内 Jinnai 19:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
The link you provide don't state that lolicon is a genre since the link that i posted on the same website consider the better terminology [lolita manga]. Also i don't see what you claiming for, can you please provide me DIRECT copy paste where is clearly stated that "lolicon is a genre" and kojikan belong to this genre? The link posted in the main article point to ANN, ANN provide correct tags in the encyclopedia page and this manga here is not tagged in this way. I correct the article again with my sources till you provide me link with reliablre sources over the mine. Reikasama ( talk) 17:32, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Since this page on ANN [19] stated the same current tags as here i agree with your corrent edit. Reikasama ( talk) 12:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Reikasama is incorrect; the use of the Lolicon tag was correct due to the fact that Lolicon is a genre in the same way hentai is a genre. And in addition, the claims of the word Lolicon being of Japanese origin are incorrect; the word is an English loanword, coming from 'Lolita Complex', which refer's to the book 'Lolita'. Lolicon is a multi-definiton word, and the previous usage was correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.241.107 ( talk) 02:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
I must wonder why you added lolicon as a genre. So far i have read every chapter and the work itself could be hardly considered as belonging to the "lolicon genre". The story is based around the lolicon scenario, having it as a main topic, but at the same time it isn't comparable to works that really belong to the "lolicon genre". I doubt that the author of the source (can we call it a source?) had the intention to put Kodomo no Jikan in the same group as other lolicon works. In short: It discusses the genre, but it is not part of the genre itself. For example: YuruYuri has yuri as the main topic, but does not follow the path of a typical yuri story. It is more or less a parody on yuri. -- /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ 署名の宣言 07:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Thinking we should include a disambiguation statement for this series from 2000. It was a 6 OVA hentai anime series also called 'Kodomo no Jikan' which came out 5 years before this KnJ was even a manga. It seems the 'forbidden time' might've just been an American retitle (probably to avoid problems with something called 'a child's time' being a title for a hentai OVA? Ranze ( talk) 21:25, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
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It's time to put an end to this dispute. I, for one, believe that Kodomo no Jikan is undeniably lolicon, as it is blatantly pedophilic in nature. Why? Because of the sexualization of 9 year old girls, the forbidden relationship between the 23 year old teacher (the main character) and his 9 year old student (they even engage in sexual intercourse in the manga's final chapter), and the fact that this stance is further validated by an industry professional, Zac Bertschy, who writes for Anime News Network. Quoting his Answerman entry, " This is - I think, anyway - the first lolicon title that's explicit enough to be released here with shrinkwrap, so the potential for danger is probably higher than it is with yaoi manga, but for right now I'm not sure I'd be panicked about this release." RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 01:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC). RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 01:07, 30 June 2019 (UTC). Sk8erPrince ( talk) 13:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Why? Filip Mutapčić ( talk) 13:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm wondering what is the source for Kodomo no Jikan having a light novel - I've looked through the WWW far and wide, even using Japanese words and nothing came up for a LN. No stores sell it, there is no external website referencing it. I think I'm not mistaken and this is a piece of media different than the manga itself, as it is listed as published apart from the main series on a different date (2012). I was just curious about who added this entry to the Wiki page and where did they get knowledge of it from. Thanks for your attention. 193.207.200.164 ( talk) 18:04, 31 July 2022 (UTC)