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Sports-Reference.com lists Keller's birth place as Phoenix, Arizona; his U.S. Olympic committee profile says Las Vegas, Nevada. Can anyone reconcile this? Another source? Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 20:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Klete Keller/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rating: 2
This is very primitive: it could be expanded with much more information. It does not even have specific medals from Sydney in the article. It also could use a biographical background. The picture is a nice touch. Dr. Payne 18:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 18:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 21:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Can someone PLEASE find some photo under Fair Use that we can put on this page? It looks like his photo is printed on a sheet of sandpaper. Negrong502 ( talk) 02:03, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Negrong502: As he is not deceased, fair use images are not able to be used in this manner per WP:NFCI. SecretName101 ( talk) 03:08, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ SecretName101: Crap. Okay. Negrong502 ( talk) 14:28, 14 January 2021 (UTC) @ SecretName101:@ Negrong502: I feel like no picture at all would be better than the one that's currently there. Thoughts? Wes sideman ( talk) 16:57, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
THE PICTURE THAT IS UP IS NOT KLETE KELLER. This is a picture of Mark Gangloff, a different member of the 2004/2008 Olympic teams! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hunter.hoj ( talk • contribs) 17:09, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Check Swimswam.com to see if they have any free photos that can be used, but this photo should come down. Hunter.hoj ( talk) 17:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
The category says "People known to be homeless all or much of the time, or otherwise famously associated with past or present periods of homelessness". Keller was not famous for being homeless. There wasn't even any coverage of his homelessness at the time. He's famous for being a swimmer, and now, slightly famous for his role in the Capitol attack. His homeless period is a mere blip. That should be the end of it. Wes sideman ( talk) 19:12, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Another editor, Defeedme, has made some significant POV changes to the lead recently, and, so far, ignored my request to discuss here rather than their edit summaries. I did just look at their edit history, and they have not edited any articles since May 10, and previously appealed a block they were under by threatening to edit as a sockpuppet, as noted by Daniel Case. I really don't want to get into an online argument over this so I'm starting a discussion here myself in hopes of avoiding a report on edit warring. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:14, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Pinging @ Kuru:, @ Ohnoitsjamie:, @ Daniel Case:, @ DanielRigal:, @ CreecregofLife: as they have some experience dealing with this user. I just read this taunt and I believe this user is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, so I'm done with them. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:46, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
From my point of view, there is truth in what you are both saying. If he weren't an Olympian, he'd be just another member of the mob on J6. But the fact that he is "the Olympian that participated in J6" is, and likely will forever be, be the best-known thing about him. Not anything else. Not what event he won his medal for, or what his best-times were. I'd liken it to John du Pont. His primary notability is derived from the prominence/wealth he was born into as a member of the du Pont family, and his involvement in USA Wrestling. If he had murdered two random, people with using same means under most other circumstances, it might be another 9:00 news story without extrodinary noteworthiness. But he forever will be best known as "that du Pont family wrestling sponsor that murdered those wrestlers"
This being said, as far as the lead sentence, it seems pretty clear to me that it should mention that he is a swimmer first, then that he committed a crime. SecretName101 ( talk) 07:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
I added a hidden comment in the lead: "Before making any changes to the lead, check the talk page. This version is the result of a long discussion there". This was added not only because of the discussion, but also because one now-blocked editor continues to pop up from different IP addresses to try to force their preferred version onto the article. I expect they will reappear after page protection expires. The history of their block-evading IP edits can be found here. Thank you. Wes sideman ( talk) 16:13, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
Firstly, there is a hidden comment right above the first sentence: "Before making any changes to the lead, check the talk page. This version is the result of a long discussion there." That was ignored. Next, part of the rationale offered for this was "R Kelly, another felon" - but his lead is fine. It mentions what he is most notable for (musician) and next, "convicted felon". Klete Keller is most notable for his January 6th conviction. Nearly 100% of the reliable secondary sources that discuss Keller are about Jan 6th. His Olympic bio page is virtually the only place that doesn't mention it; that's a primary source and hardly neutral, besides. A better comparable article would be Betty Loren-Maltese - barely notable as the mayor of Cicero, the 11th-largest town in Illinois, but certainly notable for her conviction on racketeering and fraud charges. The current version does not violate anything in WP:BLPLEAD. The first sentence establishes why Keller is notable, in a neutral manner. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
WP:BLPLEAD clearly states that The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources.
According to the sources provided in the article none of the sources call him the prefered version of yours hence your version is
WP:OR and voilating
WP:BLPLEAD and
WP:BLP. I've already gone through the edit history and the discussion on the talk page and I didn't find a consensus on how should be the lead of this article besides that you have been already told by
Deepfriedokra to stop doing what you doing here in a polite way.
TheWikiholic (
talk)
05:38, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
This seems like a rather silly argument, and both of you should probably step away and let others decide on the wording. Personally I think either version is fine but if you held a gun to my head, I'd choose "convicted felon" solely on the basis of brevity. I do not see any BLP issues with that version, and I somewhat agree with Wes' opinion that it is what Keller, for better or worse, is most notable for. I'm a fan of Olympic athletes and I confess I never heard of Keller until his insurrection involvement. In any case it should be reverted to the version that was up before all the edit warring, until more editors weigh in. Have either of you considered an RfC? Argles Barkley ( talk) 20:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.So either one of you should start the RFC if you wanted to include the wording. If either one of you restores the wording based on your WP:ILIKEIT argument I would have to take both of you to the Administrators' noticeboard TheWikiholic ( talk) 04:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
The version proposed by TheWikiholic ignores what he's most notable for and straight-up whitewashes Keller's lead. Wes sideman ( talk) 12:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
"Quick to restore it" ??? The edit you point to was June 2022. The edit where I restored the wording was 30 September 2022, almost 24 hours after an IP removed it. I don't even remember what drew my attention to it, other than Keller probably being in the news at the time, but I likely put it on my watchlist at that point. Other than the blocked user Defeedme, no one had any problem with that wording for months. Now, suddenly, two guys are here that both constantly edit right-wing figures' articles to remove negatively-tinged info. You've also both edited Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and perhaps unsurprisingly, you're in favor of adding negative info to that article while removing positive information from it. Are we supposed to pretend that you both don't have a very clear POV that you're bringing to this discussion? I'm all ears if you have an explanation. Wes sideman ( talk) 13:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Given that TheWikiholic was the primary driver of this recent change to a long-standing version of the lead, and that they were recently blocked for meatpuppetry/sockpuppetry/UPE issues, it seems appropriate to revert to the version of the article before their interference began. I don't see consensus, when TheWikiholic's influence is disregarded, for the changes made. In fact, I see at least one editor ( Argles Barkley) who agreed that "convicted felon" was the better descriptor. Wes sideman ( talk) 13:44, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
In keeping with what WP policy states:
WP:BLPLEAD The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources.
This is quite clear not only in policy and guideline but even regarding this BLP. In all online engine searches rendered by name alone: Klete Keller, the BLP is referred to as such: "Olympic swimmer Klete Keller's journey to Capitol riot...", "Klete Keller, a 3-Time Olympian, Pleads Guilty in Capitol ...", "Olympic swimming champion Klete Keller pleads guilty to ...", "Olympic Champion Klete Keller's Sentencing Date for ...", "Olympic swimmer Klete Keller's journey to Capitol riot", "Sentencing date set for Olympic gold medallist involved in ...", "Olympic gold swimmer Klete Keller - who took part in the ..." This is why WP has adopted this policy. What the BLP was first notable for and then associated with thereafter. I always use the tried-and-true standards:
Bill Cosby,
Roman Polanski, et al. They will forever be notable for their known achievements and secondary for their "crimes"; no matter how recent, media covered or sensationalized. I'm sorry, but I do not agree with the wording in the lede at present. It should read: Olympic competitive swimmer first (with accolades), then convicted participant second (preferably in a sentence all its own).
Maineartists (
talk)
14:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Combined with the block of TheWikiholic, we have this series of edits from the blocked Defeedme IP-hopper. By any definition, this is WP:CANVAS - and by a blocked user. The entire discussion process has been completely poisoned by a blocked editor, campaigning from numerous IP addresses, to re-instate their non-NPOV version of the article's lead. I am re-instating the version of the article that was in place before all the disruption from the blocked editor Defeedme. If any of the editors that were canvassed by Defeedme want to revert that, before discussing the whole situation here, I will take it to ANI. I can't believe that such blatant violations of WP:CANVAS would be allowed to stand. Wes sideman ( talk) 16:48, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
"American swimmer and convicted felon" - the short description should be short. It should describe what the subject is notable for. 95% of the coverage of the subject of this article in reliable sources relates his felony conviction on charges stemming from his January 6 United States Capitol attack. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree with SamX. We should not include the suggested prose for the same reason we don’t included convicted felon in the opening lead sentence. Kcmastrpc ( talk) 17:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I've been watching this a while - I think "American swimmer" is fine. As for the R. Kelly analogy, I'm not sure I agree with what they have as a short intro, but it's apples and oranges to me. The R. Kelly criminal saga is a large part of how he is known; I would argue that Keller's crime is far less a part of the American zeitgeist. The storming of the Capitol, sure, Keller's role in it, not so much. Quick, Spot the Quetzalcoatl! ( talk) 19:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
The short description should not include "convicted felon" for the exact same reasons that were previously discussed. "Convicted felon" is non-specific etc. The swimmer part is fine. Furthermore, edit warring to get the change made is a editor issue and goes against CONSENSUS. Springee ( talk) 03:56, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Could someone add his sentence? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67597397 92.30.149.54 ( talk) 21:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
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Please add "On December 4, 2023 Keller received a sentence of six months home detention and three years probation." to the very end of the section about the riots. 92.30.149.54 ( talk) 10:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Klete Keller article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Klete Keller be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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Sports-Reference.com lists Keller's birth place as Phoenix, Arizona; his U.S. Olympic committee profile says Las Vegas, Nevada. Can anyone reconcile this? Another source? Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 20:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Klete Keller/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rating: 2
This is very primitive: it could be expanded with much more information. It does not even have specific medals from Sydney in the article. It also could use a biographical background. The picture is a nice touch. Dr. Payne 18:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 18:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 21:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Can someone PLEASE find some photo under Fair Use that we can put on this page? It looks like his photo is printed on a sheet of sandpaper. Negrong502 ( talk) 02:03, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Negrong502: As he is not deceased, fair use images are not able to be used in this manner per WP:NFCI. SecretName101 ( talk) 03:08, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ SecretName101: Crap. Okay. Negrong502 ( talk) 14:28, 14 January 2021 (UTC) @ SecretName101:@ Negrong502: I feel like no picture at all would be better than the one that's currently there. Thoughts? Wes sideman ( talk) 16:57, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
THE PICTURE THAT IS UP IS NOT KLETE KELLER. This is a picture of Mark Gangloff, a different member of the 2004/2008 Olympic teams! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hunter.hoj ( talk • contribs) 17:09, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Check Swimswam.com to see if they have any free photos that can be used, but this photo should come down. Hunter.hoj ( talk) 17:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
The category says "People known to be homeless all or much of the time, or otherwise famously associated with past or present periods of homelessness". Keller was not famous for being homeless. There wasn't even any coverage of his homelessness at the time. He's famous for being a swimmer, and now, slightly famous for his role in the Capitol attack. His homeless period is a mere blip. That should be the end of it. Wes sideman ( talk) 19:12, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Another editor, Defeedme, has made some significant POV changes to the lead recently, and, so far, ignored my request to discuss here rather than their edit summaries. I did just look at their edit history, and they have not edited any articles since May 10, and previously appealed a block they were under by threatening to edit as a sockpuppet, as noted by Daniel Case. I really don't want to get into an online argument over this so I'm starting a discussion here myself in hopes of avoiding a report on edit warring. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:14, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Pinging @ Kuru:, @ Ohnoitsjamie:, @ Daniel Case:, @ DanielRigal:, @ CreecregofLife: as they have some experience dealing with this user. I just read this taunt and I believe this user is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, so I'm done with them. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:46, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
From my point of view, there is truth in what you are both saying. If he weren't an Olympian, he'd be just another member of the mob on J6. But the fact that he is "the Olympian that participated in J6" is, and likely will forever be, be the best-known thing about him. Not anything else. Not what event he won his medal for, or what his best-times were. I'd liken it to John du Pont. His primary notability is derived from the prominence/wealth he was born into as a member of the du Pont family, and his involvement in USA Wrestling. If he had murdered two random, people with using same means under most other circumstances, it might be another 9:00 news story without extrodinary noteworthiness. But he forever will be best known as "that du Pont family wrestling sponsor that murdered those wrestlers"
This being said, as far as the lead sentence, it seems pretty clear to me that it should mention that he is a swimmer first, then that he committed a crime. SecretName101 ( talk) 07:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
I added a hidden comment in the lead: "Before making any changes to the lead, check the talk page. This version is the result of a long discussion there". This was added not only because of the discussion, but also because one now-blocked editor continues to pop up from different IP addresses to try to force their preferred version onto the article. I expect they will reappear after page protection expires. The history of their block-evading IP edits can be found here. Thank you. Wes sideman ( talk) 16:13, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
Firstly, there is a hidden comment right above the first sentence: "Before making any changes to the lead, check the talk page. This version is the result of a long discussion there." That was ignored. Next, part of the rationale offered for this was "R Kelly, another felon" - but his lead is fine. It mentions what he is most notable for (musician) and next, "convicted felon". Klete Keller is most notable for his January 6th conviction. Nearly 100% of the reliable secondary sources that discuss Keller are about Jan 6th. His Olympic bio page is virtually the only place that doesn't mention it; that's a primary source and hardly neutral, besides. A better comparable article would be Betty Loren-Maltese - barely notable as the mayor of Cicero, the 11th-largest town in Illinois, but certainly notable for her conviction on racketeering and fraud charges. The current version does not violate anything in WP:BLPLEAD. The first sentence establishes why Keller is notable, in a neutral manner. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
WP:BLPLEAD clearly states that The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources.
According to the sources provided in the article none of the sources call him the prefered version of yours hence your version is
WP:OR and voilating
WP:BLPLEAD and
WP:BLP. I've already gone through the edit history and the discussion on the talk page and I didn't find a consensus on how should be the lead of this article besides that you have been already told by
Deepfriedokra to stop doing what you doing here in a polite way.
TheWikiholic (
talk)
05:38, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
This seems like a rather silly argument, and both of you should probably step away and let others decide on the wording. Personally I think either version is fine but if you held a gun to my head, I'd choose "convicted felon" solely on the basis of brevity. I do not see any BLP issues with that version, and I somewhat agree with Wes' opinion that it is what Keller, for better or worse, is most notable for. I'm a fan of Olympic athletes and I confess I never heard of Keller until his insurrection involvement. In any case it should be reverted to the version that was up before all the edit warring, until more editors weigh in. Have either of you considered an RfC? Argles Barkley ( talk) 20:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.So either one of you should start the RFC if you wanted to include the wording. If either one of you restores the wording based on your WP:ILIKEIT argument I would have to take both of you to the Administrators' noticeboard TheWikiholic ( talk) 04:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
The version proposed by TheWikiholic ignores what he's most notable for and straight-up whitewashes Keller's lead. Wes sideman ( talk) 12:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
"Quick to restore it" ??? The edit you point to was June 2022. The edit where I restored the wording was 30 September 2022, almost 24 hours after an IP removed it. I don't even remember what drew my attention to it, other than Keller probably being in the news at the time, but I likely put it on my watchlist at that point. Other than the blocked user Defeedme, no one had any problem with that wording for months. Now, suddenly, two guys are here that both constantly edit right-wing figures' articles to remove negatively-tinged info. You've also both edited Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and perhaps unsurprisingly, you're in favor of adding negative info to that article while removing positive information from it. Are we supposed to pretend that you both don't have a very clear POV that you're bringing to this discussion? I'm all ears if you have an explanation. Wes sideman ( talk) 13:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Given that TheWikiholic was the primary driver of this recent change to a long-standing version of the lead, and that they were recently blocked for meatpuppetry/sockpuppetry/UPE issues, it seems appropriate to revert to the version of the article before their interference began. I don't see consensus, when TheWikiholic's influence is disregarded, for the changes made. In fact, I see at least one editor ( Argles Barkley) who agreed that "convicted felon" was the better descriptor. Wes sideman ( talk) 13:44, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
In keeping with what WP policy states:
WP:BLPLEAD The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources.
This is quite clear not only in policy and guideline but even regarding this BLP. In all online engine searches rendered by name alone: Klete Keller, the BLP is referred to as such: "Olympic swimmer Klete Keller's journey to Capitol riot...", "Klete Keller, a 3-Time Olympian, Pleads Guilty in Capitol ...", "Olympic swimming champion Klete Keller pleads guilty to ...", "Olympic Champion Klete Keller's Sentencing Date for ...", "Olympic swimmer Klete Keller's journey to Capitol riot", "Sentencing date set for Olympic gold medallist involved in ...", "Olympic gold swimmer Klete Keller - who took part in the ..." This is why WP has adopted this policy. What the BLP was first notable for and then associated with thereafter. I always use the tried-and-true standards:
Bill Cosby,
Roman Polanski, et al. They will forever be notable for their known achievements and secondary for their "crimes"; no matter how recent, media covered or sensationalized. I'm sorry, but I do not agree with the wording in the lede at present. It should read: Olympic competitive swimmer first (with accolades), then convicted participant second (preferably in a sentence all its own).
Maineartists (
talk)
14:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Combined with the block of TheWikiholic, we have this series of edits from the blocked Defeedme IP-hopper. By any definition, this is WP:CANVAS - and by a blocked user. The entire discussion process has been completely poisoned by a blocked editor, campaigning from numerous IP addresses, to re-instate their non-NPOV version of the article's lead. I am re-instating the version of the article that was in place before all the disruption from the blocked editor Defeedme. If any of the editors that were canvassed by Defeedme want to revert that, before discussing the whole situation here, I will take it to ANI. I can't believe that such blatant violations of WP:CANVAS would be allowed to stand. Wes sideman ( talk) 16:48, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
"American swimmer and convicted felon" - the short description should be short. It should describe what the subject is notable for. 95% of the coverage of the subject of this article in reliable sources relates his felony conviction on charges stemming from his January 6 United States Capitol attack. Wes sideman ( talk) 14:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree with SamX. We should not include the suggested prose for the same reason we don’t included convicted felon in the opening lead sentence. Kcmastrpc ( talk) 17:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I've been watching this a while - I think "American swimmer" is fine. As for the R. Kelly analogy, I'm not sure I agree with what they have as a short intro, but it's apples and oranges to me. The R. Kelly criminal saga is a large part of how he is known; I would argue that Keller's crime is far less a part of the American zeitgeist. The storming of the Capitol, sure, Keller's role in it, not so much. Quick, Spot the Quetzalcoatl! ( talk) 19:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
The short description should not include "convicted felon" for the exact same reasons that were previously discussed. "Convicted felon" is non-specific etc. The swimmer part is fine. Furthermore, edit warring to get the change made is a editor issue and goes against CONSENSUS. Springee ( talk) 03:56, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Could someone add his sentence? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67597397 92.30.149.54 ( talk) 21:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add "On December 4, 2023 Keller received a sentence of six months home detention and three years probation." to the very end of the section about the riots. 92.30.149.54 ( talk) 10:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)