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I'm assuming this is the same as Klesha, in which case the list includes not only incorrect terms, but incorrect definitions. Lobha is not greed, it's self-love. Moha is greed, not Avidya. Further, the term most properly used in the Kleshas is not Doha, but Krodha for hatred and/or anger. Corrections should certainly be made. -- hidoshi@hidoshi.com 15:50, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to:
I think this would be helpful for a number of reasons including:
Would anyone rationally object to this? Thanks for any civil feedback, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 03:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else concerned about the apparent incoherence (e.g., why insert Patanjali outside of tangential word association?) of this section? Anyone able to provide order (e.g., in terms of historical/denominational development and/or articulation) to this section? Thanks for any help, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 06:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Maybe structure the 5 Kelshas of Patanjali's Sutras in the same outline format as the other Buddhist texts (i.e., bulleted) and give a reference that Patanjali was considered to be a contemporary of the Buddha so as to fairly show that the notion of Klesha is not strictly Buddhist in nature.
The interpretive commentary looks good.
CGBaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.24.234 ( talk) 14:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This article is impressive but I think you've missed a cultural forest for some scholarly trees. The particular "three poisons" formula of lobha, dosa, and moha has an importance in Mahayana understanding and iconography that sets it apart. For instance, "the wheel of samsara" is always drawn with the rooster of desire, the snake of aversion, and the pig of delusion in the very center. (e.g., Wheel)
For the moment (and maybe for good) I would just mention it in the last line of the introduction:
In Buddhism, kilesa ( Pali; Sanskrit: kleśa or [klesha] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup ( help)) is typically translated as "defilement" or "poison." In early Buddhist texts, kilesa generally referred to one of a set of mental states which temporarily cloud the mind and manifest in unskillful actions. Over time, the kilesas, and in particular the "three poisons" of greed, hatred, and delusion, came to be seen, particularly in Mahayana Buddhism, as the very roots of samsaric existence.
(Sorry for being lazy and not giving the translations, but I never seem to get it right!) OldMonkeyPuzzle ( talk) 08:47, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
The Abhidharmakośa is listed here in the Mahāyana section despite it being a Sautantrika commentary on Vaibhāṣika positions. Much of Vasubhandu's other work is in fact Mahāyana, but this text is not. Perhaps a section entitled "Early Buddhism" should be created with the large amount of information on Theravāda being one section, and an "other early schools" section containing the information from the Kośa and other Sarvāstivāda works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahabhusuku ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Why does this article have the header "kleśa" with a long final "a" ? This is wrong ~ the body of the article has the correct form with a short "a". Could somebody change this please ?-- अनाम गुमनाम 18:22, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
In Tibetan Buddhist teachings, the three poisons refer to ignorance, aversion, and attachment. This page has them listed as ignorance, attachment and craving. Maybe the later reference is from another tradition, but this is worth clarifying since the three poisons are often cited in Tibetan texts.
I've removed the following text from the article page. This text below is confusing, it has no references, and I can't find any references to support it. It seems to be mixing up different terms and concepts.
I've created a separate page for the three poisons, with an appropriate link from this page.
The topic is certainly worthy of its own page. I will add more context on this page when I get a chance.
There is great information in the following footnote:
I would like to add this information to the page on the three poisons, but I would like to clarify the sources first. I don't doubt the accuracy, but I am not a Pali scholar, so the references like DN 33 (D iii.215) are not clear to me (I'll research this, but it takes time). In addition, the last two sentences in the footnote are very helpful, but there is no citation. Can someone provide a good source for this?
For the purpose of making this topic more accessible to a general audience, I am planning on adding a non-technical introduction (with appropriate references) and also re-ordering the topics to put the sections on the Three Poisons and Five Poisons before the sections on Pali and Mahayana. I think this will make sense when you see it. I think that now that the sections on the Three Poisons and Five Poisons have been clarified, it makes sense to move them towards the top of the article; these sections should be easier for a general audience to understand. Dorje108 ( talk) 19:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi Larry, Thanks again for your feedback. I think we are getting somewhere! I'll respond to your points out of order, to address the easiest points first:
Thanks again for your valuable insights. Yours in the dharma, Dorje. Dorje108 ( talk) 21:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi Larry, Thank you for this wealth of information. I’ve taken your suggestions on the topic heading and made the appropriate change, and also changed the CAPS on the other headings to make them consistent.
Regarding the lede, I like this idea that you suggested:
But having said that, I will probably think about this for a long time before I suggest something. If I have a good suggestion, I’ll post it on my user page and ask your opinion. In my experience, writing the introduction for any text can sometimes be the trickiest part, and sometimes it doesn’t come into focus until the rest of the text is written. So I think there is no rush on this. There are edits that I would like to make within the Mahayana section, so I will probably focus on that for a while. And then after that start thinking about an overview that puts the rest of the article in perspective, and “then” think about the lede again.
I’m pretty vague on the early Buddhist texts, so it’s difficult for me to weigh in on that issue either way. I am also currently pretty vague on the Wikipedia guidelines and the guidelines for the Buddhist project (if the project has guidelines). So for all of the above reasons, I am going to beg off on making any changes to the lede right now.
Thanks very much for the texts that you recommended. These are all new to me and I will certainly look into them. So little time, so much to do! :) I’m sure that I will have more questions for you in the near future. I am very grateful for your comments thus far.
In consideration of the discussion above, and after careful thought and reflection, I am updating the lede paragraph as follows:
I have discussed this change with Larry (see discussion above) offline, and he has given his assent. The main purpose of this change to to first provide the information of most interest to a general audience, and then provide the information of most interest to scholars. — Dorje108 ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I propose renaming (or moving) this article as follows:
For the following reasons:
Note: As far as I am aware, there are two correct spellings for this Sanskrit term: either Klesha or Kleśa. And since "Klesha" is easier to read, write and pronounce, and commonly used by contemporary translators, I think it is the best choice. My understanding of the wikipedia guidelines is that an article of this importance should be accessible to a general audience. I believe the simpler spelling is more accessible to people unfamiliar with Sanskrit.
I'll wait a few days for comments before making this change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 ( talk • contribs) 22:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
ADDENDUM:
ADDENDUM:
I wrote the Pali literature section of this article and it has a possible problem that I've not gotten around to clarifying for a long time and I'm not sure when I'll get time to do so: the section (openly, especially through a plethora of endnotes) does not maintain a bright-line distinction between kilesa and upakkilesa (and even, perhaps, sa.mkilesa).
Is this distinction important? I really don't know. I'm hoping not, because if it is important then the Pali section could be misleading (depending on one's objectives for reading this article, e.g., historical textual scrutiny). Why did I blur this line when creating this section? I of course no longer really remember but suspect, to the best of my feeble recollections, that it was initially because, in the Samyutta Nikaya (SLTP redaction?), the grouping (sa.myutta) entitled, "Kilesa" (SN 27), actually uses the term "upakkilesa" throughout its verses (e.g., also see the so-called "Kilesa Sutta," SN 46.33: "pañcime cittassa upakkilesā ...." [emphasis added]) -- suggesting that at least some redactor(s) somewhere in Theravadan history did not think this distinction was so important. In addition, again according to my foggy, highly questionable memory, the term "kilesa" per se does not seem to come up with significant regularity in the Pali Canon's Sutta Pitaka, as suggested by this comment in Rhys Davids & Stede (1921-5, p. 217):
Why I am writing this now: Mostly I'm prompted by Dorje's continued work on polishing this article -- trying to make it smarter and more beneficial. So, I figure placing this cautionary note here is better than nothing. In addition, I'd like to mention a couple of resources that others might value reading and/or want to include somehow, if they are motivated to attempt to address this in a thoughtful manner. In particular, in the Sutta Pitaka, there is significant material on the upakkilesā, such as in Majjhima Nikaya suttas 7 and 8. (Here, for instance, is a document Ven. Bodhi created regarding the 16 upakkilesas enumerated in MN 7: http://www.bodhimonastery.com/bm/images/stories/documents/MN_Handouts/M0040_MN-007_Upakkilesa.pdf . And here's a Ven. Nyanaponika preface to his translations of MN 7 and MN 8 highlighting "upakkilesa" -- which he appears to translate simply as "defilements": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel061.html .) (That that Sister Upalavanna, I believe, generally translates "upakkilesa" as "minor defilement.") In addition, four upakkilesa (intoxicants, sex, accepting gold & silver, wrong livelihood -- presumably aimed at bhikkhu[ni]s?) are mentioned in AN 4.50 (e.g., here's Ven. Thanissaro's translation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.050.than.html .)
Personally, I think the Sutta Pitaka subsection might benefit from two sub-subsections: kilesa and upakkilesa ... someday? (Am I splitting too many hairs?)
Better than nothing? I apologize if not, Larry ( 24.225.67.227 ( talk) 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC))
Respectfully removing the topic "International Nath Order (INO) perspectives" and corresponding links. These are interesting links, but this is an article about kleshas within the Buddhist tradition, and the Nath group is not in the Buddhist tradition. These links are included on the article Kleshas (Hinduism). For guidelines on external links, see Wikipedia:External links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Just a simple note to say that I am for changing the translation of *moha* to "confusion" and not "delusion." I heard Steven Batchelor use this translation on a podcast yesterday and suddenly the whole thing made sense. "Delusion" has connotations of mental visions of grandeur that I do not think are meant by *moha*, which clearly references something that is broadly and universally applicable to the whole of mankind.
On the other hand, I think every English speaker can look at their life and understand immediately what "confusion" would mean. The wikipedia article on moha and this article make clear that there are alternate translations. It seems to me that "delusion" is becoming more and more antiquated and ought to be eventually expelled.
I would be happy with "delusion/confusion" in the meantime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.84.71 ( talk) 19:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
These articles and their redirects need to be untangled:
Kleshas (Hinduism),
Kleshas, and
Kleshas (Buddhism). Particular attention needs to be paid to
Kleshas, which used to be a disambiguation page. Right now it says The Five Poisons are five perceived threats to the stability of the rule of the Communist Party of China.
, with nothing about the etymology and no mention of the other articles. It seems fine to me if it's an overview or summary article instead of a dab page, but it's incomplete as it is.
The redirects to these articles seem pretty random; sorting them out might be easy for someone knowledgeable in these areas. — Gorthian ( talk) 19:24, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
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I'm assuming this is the same as Klesha, in which case the list includes not only incorrect terms, but incorrect definitions. Lobha is not greed, it's self-love. Moha is greed, not Avidya. Further, the term most properly used in the Kleshas is not Doha, but Krodha for hatred and/or anger. Corrections should certainly be made. -- hidoshi@hidoshi.com 15:50, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to:
I think this would be helpful for a number of reasons including:
Would anyone rationally object to this? Thanks for any civil feedback, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 03:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else concerned about the apparent incoherence (e.g., why insert Patanjali outside of tangential word association?) of this section? Anyone able to provide order (e.g., in terms of historical/denominational development and/or articulation) to this section? Thanks for any help, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 06:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Maybe structure the 5 Kelshas of Patanjali's Sutras in the same outline format as the other Buddhist texts (i.e., bulleted) and give a reference that Patanjali was considered to be a contemporary of the Buddha so as to fairly show that the notion of Klesha is not strictly Buddhist in nature.
The interpretive commentary looks good.
CGBaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.24.234 ( talk) 14:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This article is impressive but I think you've missed a cultural forest for some scholarly trees. The particular "three poisons" formula of lobha, dosa, and moha has an importance in Mahayana understanding and iconography that sets it apart. For instance, "the wheel of samsara" is always drawn with the rooster of desire, the snake of aversion, and the pig of delusion in the very center. (e.g., Wheel)
For the moment (and maybe for good) I would just mention it in the last line of the introduction:
In Buddhism, kilesa ( Pali; Sanskrit: kleśa or [klesha] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup ( help)) is typically translated as "defilement" or "poison." In early Buddhist texts, kilesa generally referred to one of a set of mental states which temporarily cloud the mind and manifest in unskillful actions. Over time, the kilesas, and in particular the "three poisons" of greed, hatred, and delusion, came to be seen, particularly in Mahayana Buddhism, as the very roots of samsaric existence.
(Sorry for being lazy and not giving the translations, but I never seem to get it right!) OldMonkeyPuzzle ( talk) 08:47, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
The Abhidharmakośa is listed here in the Mahāyana section despite it being a Sautantrika commentary on Vaibhāṣika positions. Much of Vasubhandu's other work is in fact Mahāyana, but this text is not. Perhaps a section entitled "Early Buddhism" should be created with the large amount of information on Theravāda being one section, and an "other early schools" section containing the information from the Kośa and other Sarvāstivāda works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahabhusuku ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Why does this article have the header "kleśa" with a long final "a" ? This is wrong ~ the body of the article has the correct form with a short "a". Could somebody change this please ?-- अनाम गुमनाम 18:22, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
In Tibetan Buddhist teachings, the three poisons refer to ignorance, aversion, and attachment. This page has them listed as ignorance, attachment and craving. Maybe the later reference is from another tradition, but this is worth clarifying since the three poisons are often cited in Tibetan texts.
I've removed the following text from the article page. This text below is confusing, it has no references, and I can't find any references to support it. It seems to be mixing up different terms and concepts.
I've created a separate page for the three poisons, with an appropriate link from this page.
The topic is certainly worthy of its own page. I will add more context on this page when I get a chance.
There is great information in the following footnote:
I would like to add this information to the page on the three poisons, but I would like to clarify the sources first. I don't doubt the accuracy, but I am not a Pali scholar, so the references like DN 33 (D iii.215) are not clear to me (I'll research this, but it takes time). In addition, the last two sentences in the footnote are very helpful, but there is no citation. Can someone provide a good source for this?
For the purpose of making this topic more accessible to a general audience, I am planning on adding a non-technical introduction (with appropriate references) and also re-ordering the topics to put the sections on the Three Poisons and Five Poisons before the sections on Pali and Mahayana. I think this will make sense when you see it. I think that now that the sections on the Three Poisons and Five Poisons have been clarified, it makes sense to move them towards the top of the article; these sections should be easier for a general audience to understand. Dorje108 ( talk) 19:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi Larry, Thanks again for your feedback. I think we are getting somewhere! I'll respond to your points out of order, to address the easiest points first:
Thanks again for your valuable insights. Yours in the dharma, Dorje. Dorje108 ( talk) 21:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi Larry, Thank you for this wealth of information. I’ve taken your suggestions on the topic heading and made the appropriate change, and also changed the CAPS on the other headings to make them consistent.
Regarding the lede, I like this idea that you suggested:
But having said that, I will probably think about this for a long time before I suggest something. If I have a good suggestion, I’ll post it on my user page and ask your opinion. In my experience, writing the introduction for any text can sometimes be the trickiest part, and sometimes it doesn’t come into focus until the rest of the text is written. So I think there is no rush on this. There are edits that I would like to make within the Mahayana section, so I will probably focus on that for a while. And then after that start thinking about an overview that puts the rest of the article in perspective, and “then” think about the lede again.
I’m pretty vague on the early Buddhist texts, so it’s difficult for me to weigh in on that issue either way. I am also currently pretty vague on the Wikipedia guidelines and the guidelines for the Buddhist project (if the project has guidelines). So for all of the above reasons, I am going to beg off on making any changes to the lede right now.
Thanks very much for the texts that you recommended. These are all new to me and I will certainly look into them. So little time, so much to do! :) I’m sure that I will have more questions for you in the near future. I am very grateful for your comments thus far.
In consideration of the discussion above, and after careful thought and reflection, I am updating the lede paragraph as follows:
I have discussed this change with Larry (see discussion above) offline, and he has given his assent. The main purpose of this change to to first provide the information of most interest to a general audience, and then provide the information of most interest to scholars. — Dorje108 ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I propose renaming (or moving) this article as follows:
For the following reasons:
Note: As far as I am aware, there are two correct spellings for this Sanskrit term: either Klesha or Kleśa. And since "Klesha" is easier to read, write and pronounce, and commonly used by contemporary translators, I think it is the best choice. My understanding of the wikipedia guidelines is that an article of this importance should be accessible to a general audience. I believe the simpler spelling is more accessible to people unfamiliar with Sanskrit.
I'll wait a few days for comments before making this change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 ( talk • contribs) 22:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
ADDENDUM:
ADDENDUM:
I wrote the Pali literature section of this article and it has a possible problem that I've not gotten around to clarifying for a long time and I'm not sure when I'll get time to do so: the section (openly, especially through a plethora of endnotes) does not maintain a bright-line distinction between kilesa and upakkilesa (and even, perhaps, sa.mkilesa).
Is this distinction important? I really don't know. I'm hoping not, because if it is important then the Pali section could be misleading (depending on one's objectives for reading this article, e.g., historical textual scrutiny). Why did I blur this line when creating this section? I of course no longer really remember but suspect, to the best of my feeble recollections, that it was initially because, in the Samyutta Nikaya (SLTP redaction?), the grouping (sa.myutta) entitled, "Kilesa" (SN 27), actually uses the term "upakkilesa" throughout its verses (e.g., also see the so-called "Kilesa Sutta," SN 46.33: "pañcime cittassa upakkilesā ...." [emphasis added]) -- suggesting that at least some redactor(s) somewhere in Theravadan history did not think this distinction was so important. In addition, again according to my foggy, highly questionable memory, the term "kilesa" per se does not seem to come up with significant regularity in the Pali Canon's Sutta Pitaka, as suggested by this comment in Rhys Davids & Stede (1921-5, p. 217):
Why I am writing this now: Mostly I'm prompted by Dorje's continued work on polishing this article -- trying to make it smarter and more beneficial. So, I figure placing this cautionary note here is better than nothing. In addition, I'd like to mention a couple of resources that others might value reading and/or want to include somehow, if they are motivated to attempt to address this in a thoughtful manner. In particular, in the Sutta Pitaka, there is significant material on the upakkilesā, such as in Majjhima Nikaya suttas 7 and 8. (Here, for instance, is a document Ven. Bodhi created regarding the 16 upakkilesas enumerated in MN 7: http://www.bodhimonastery.com/bm/images/stories/documents/MN_Handouts/M0040_MN-007_Upakkilesa.pdf . And here's a Ven. Nyanaponika preface to his translations of MN 7 and MN 8 highlighting "upakkilesa" -- which he appears to translate simply as "defilements": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel061.html .) (That that Sister Upalavanna, I believe, generally translates "upakkilesa" as "minor defilement.") In addition, four upakkilesa (intoxicants, sex, accepting gold & silver, wrong livelihood -- presumably aimed at bhikkhu[ni]s?) are mentioned in AN 4.50 (e.g., here's Ven. Thanissaro's translation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.050.than.html .)
Personally, I think the Sutta Pitaka subsection might benefit from two sub-subsections: kilesa and upakkilesa ... someday? (Am I splitting too many hairs?)
Better than nothing? I apologize if not, Larry ( 24.225.67.227 ( talk) 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC))
Respectfully removing the topic "International Nath Order (INO) perspectives" and corresponding links. These are interesting links, but this is an article about kleshas within the Buddhist tradition, and the Nath group is not in the Buddhist tradition. These links are included on the article Kleshas (Hinduism). For guidelines on external links, see Wikipedia:External links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Just a simple note to say that I am for changing the translation of *moha* to "confusion" and not "delusion." I heard Steven Batchelor use this translation on a podcast yesterday and suddenly the whole thing made sense. "Delusion" has connotations of mental visions of grandeur that I do not think are meant by *moha*, which clearly references something that is broadly and universally applicable to the whole of mankind.
On the other hand, I think every English speaker can look at their life and understand immediately what "confusion" would mean. The wikipedia article on moha and this article make clear that there are alternate translations. It seems to me that "delusion" is becoming more and more antiquated and ought to be eventually expelled.
I would be happy with "delusion/confusion" in the meantime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.84.71 ( talk) 19:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
These articles and their redirects need to be untangled:
Kleshas (Hinduism),
Kleshas, and
Kleshas (Buddhism). Particular attention needs to be paid to
Kleshas, which used to be a disambiguation page. Right now it says The Five Poisons are five perceived threats to the stability of the rule of the Communist Party of China.
, with nothing about the etymology and no mention of the other articles. It seems fine to me if it's an overview or summary article instead of a dab page, but it's incomplete as it is.
The redirects to these articles seem pretty random; sorting them out might be easy for someone knowledgeable in these areas. — Gorthian ( talk) 19:24, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
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