This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I removed an irrelevant quote, which had nothing to do with this article. It was about the events in Sumgait, and not Kirovabad. Grandmaster 10:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The source says "while the frightened Azerbaijani minority in Armenia fled eastward into Azerbaijan" -- VartanM 05:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the full source of the quote attributed to "Cullen, p. 70"? Also, I was looking back at previous edits. Why was useful stuff describing the events in Kirovabad in the weeks prior to the pogrom edited out, stuff like the toppling of the statue? Meowy 17:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Can I please have a precise source for "Cullen"; if this passage isn't attributed properly, it cant stay! John Vandenberg 06:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
As an aside due to the edit summary by our IP friend 64.40.108.168, being an admin does not preclude me from being an editor in this article. Obviously, until the dust settles I will not use my admin tools on this article. I am not attempting to take sides, but I don't intend to watch useful tidbits of information be the cause of an edit war. My edit tried to restore the information in less words in order to give it less weight. I then subsequently removed a passage because it was without a fully qualified reference. I am glad our IP friend has now provided the full reference, and if our IP friend would like to send me a copy of the complete article I will staunchly defend the inclusion of the quote in this article. John Vandenberg 02:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
"However later Sakharov admitted in his memoirs that the information about the numbers of Armenian causalities provided by him was unverified and he received it from his wife Yelena Bonner, who had received it from an "irresponsible person". According to Sakharov, dissemination of figures that were not verified was a mistake on his part. [1]"
Please tell me if the source is reliable and quote the Russian translation and put it in English per wiki policy.
Sakharov is not a reliable source, he is known for pro-Armenian bias. However it is even better that he was cited, it illustrates how certain people were disseminating inaccurate information and how trustworthy they were as a source on Armenia - Azerbaijan conflict. This is the quote from Sakharov's memoirs:
В это время вновь обострились азербайджанско-армянские проблемы. Начались погромы и насилия в Кировабаде. Ситуация там была ужасающей – сотни женщин и детей скрывались в церкви, которую с трудом обороняли солдаты, вооруженные лишь (так писалось в сообщениях) саперными лопатками. Солдатам действительно было трудно, и вели они себя героически. Среди них были погибшие. Вскоре поступили сообщения о большом числе убитых армян. Как потом выяснилось, сообщения поступали от одного человека, не вполне точного и ответственного, скажем так. Но в Москву они поступали уже по разным каналам и выглядели как независимые и достоверные. Люся, поверив этим сообщениям (да и трудно было не поверить), передала по телефону их мне в США, и я использовал сообщенные цифры в телефонограмме Миттерану (он как раз приехал в Москву с официальным визитом, и я звонил ночью во французское посольство) и в публичном заявлении. Это была одна из нескольких допущенных мною в последние годы досадных ошибок. Конечно, не надо было, по крайней мере, использовать конкретные цифры. Grandmaster 04:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Translation:
During this time Armenian – Azerbaijani problems aggravated again. Pogroms and violence started in Kirovabad. The situation there was terrible – hundreds of women and children were hiding in a church, which with much difficulty was protected by soldiers, who (as reports claimed) were armed only with mine shovels. Soldiers indeed were having a hard time, and they behaved heroically. There were casualties among them. Soon we received information that a large number of Armenians was killed. As it turned out later, the reports came from one person, who let’s say was not quite accurate and responsible. But they reached Moscow through various channels and appeared to be independent and trustworthy. Lusya, who trusted these reports (and it was hard not to trust them) transmitted them to me in the USA by telephone, and I used the received figures in a telephone message to Mitterrand (he just arrived to Moscow with an official visit, and I called by night to the French embassy) and in a public statement. This was one of the deplorable mistakes that I have made in the recent years. Of course, I should not have at least used the concrete figures.
As one can see from the above, Sakharov admits that the numbers published by him were inaccurate and came from an unreliable source. Grandmaster 05:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The sources presented are reliable already. Please do not add absurd things like the event did not occur. Also do not use Russian sources since this is English Wikipedia not Russian, so it cannot be verified and the source is not even reliable. Thank you please comply with these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.114.159.133 ( talk) 23:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
"According to the high ranked KGB officers who were involved in these events, pogroms and violence were prevented due to the efforts of the Soviet army and local authorities, and there were no casualties among the civil population."
May I ask who wrote this? what is the reliability of the reference? thank you.
http://www.trud.ru/trud.php?id=200102010200801 -- Namsos ( talk) 00:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I removed an irrelevant quote, which had nothing to do with this article. It was about the events in Sumgait, and not Kirovabad. Grandmaster 10:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The source says "while the frightened Azerbaijani minority in Armenia fled eastward into Azerbaijan" -- VartanM 05:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the full source of the quote attributed to "Cullen, p. 70"? Also, I was looking back at previous edits. Why was useful stuff describing the events in Kirovabad in the weeks prior to the pogrom edited out, stuff like the toppling of the statue? Meowy 17:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Can I please have a precise source for "Cullen"; if this passage isn't attributed properly, it cant stay! John Vandenberg 06:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
As an aside due to the edit summary by our IP friend 64.40.108.168, being an admin does not preclude me from being an editor in this article. Obviously, until the dust settles I will not use my admin tools on this article. I am not attempting to take sides, but I don't intend to watch useful tidbits of information be the cause of an edit war. My edit tried to restore the information in less words in order to give it less weight. I then subsequently removed a passage because it was without a fully qualified reference. I am glad our IP friend has now provided the full reference, and if our IP friend would like to send me a copy of the complete article I will staunchly defend the inclusion of the quote in this article. John Vandenberg 02:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
"However later Sakharov admitted in his memoirs that the information about the numbers of Armenian causalities provided by him was unverified and he received it from his wife Yelena Bonner, who had received it from an "irresponsible person". According to Sakharov, dissemination of figures that were not verified was a mistake on his part. [1]"
Please tell me if the source is reliable and quote the Russian translation and put it in English per wiki policy.
Sakharov is not a reliable source, he is known for pro-Armenian bias. However it is even better that he was cited, it illustrates how certain people were disseminating inaccurate information and how trustworthy they were as a source on Armenia - Azerbaijan conflict. This is the quote from Sakharov's memoirs:
В это время вновь обострились азербайджанско-армянские проблемы. Начались погромы и насилия в Кировабаде. Ситуация там была ужасающей – сотни женщин и детей скрывались в церкви, которую с трудом обороняли солдаты, вооруженные лишь (так писалось в сообщениях) саперными лопатками. Солдатам действительно было трудно, и вели они себя героически. Среди них были погибшие. Вскоре поступили сообщения о большом числе убитых армян. Как потом выяснилось, сообщения поступали от одного человека, не вполне точного и ответственного, скажем так. Но в Москву они поступали уже по разным каналам и выглядели как независимые и достоверные. Люся, поверив этим сообщениям (да и трудно было не поверить), передала по телефону их мне в США, и я использовал сообщенные цифры в телефонограмме Миттерану (он как раз приехал в Москву с официальным визитом, и я звонил ночью во французское посольство) и в публичном заявлении. Это была одна из нескольких допущенных мною в последние годы досадных ошибок. Конечно, не надо было, по крайней мере, использовать конкретные цифры. Grandmaster 04:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Translation:
During this time Armenian – Azerbaijani problems aggravated again. Pogroms and violence started in Kirovabad. The situation there was terrible – hundreds of women and children were hiding in a church, which with much difficulty was protected by soldiers, who (as reports claimed) were armed only with mine shovels. Soldiers indeed were having a hard time, and they behaved heroically. There were casualties among them. Soon we received information that a large number of Armenians was killed. As it turned out later, the reports came from one person, who let’s say was not quite accurate and responsible. But they reached Moscow through various channels and appeared to be independent and trustworthy. Lusya, who trusted these reports (and it was hard not to trust them) transmitted them to me in the USA by telephone, and I used the received figures in a telephone message to Mitterrand (he just arrived to Moscow with an official visit, and I called by night to the French embassy) and in a public statement. This was one of the deplorable mistakes that I have made in the recent years. Of course, I should not have at least used the concrete figures.
As one can see from the above, Sakharov admits that the numbers published by him were inaccurate and came from an unreliable source. Grandmaster 05:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The sources presented are reliable already. Please do not add absurd things like the event did not occur. Also do not use Russian sources since this is English Wikipedia not Russian, so it cannot be verified and the source is not even reliable. Thank you please comply with these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.114.159.133 ( talk) 23:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
"According to the high ranked KGB officers who were involved in these events, pogroms and violence were prevented due to the efforts of the Soviet army and local authorities, and there were no casualties among the civil population."
May I ask who wrote this? what is the reliability of the reference? thank you.
http://www.trud.ru/trud.php?id=200102010200801 -- Namsos ( talk) 00:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)