This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kirovabad pogrom article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 60 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think we should remove that big clump from Andrei Sakharov memoirs. The Russian source is not available anyway. I think we should add a sentence after Sakharov deaths he thought had happened (At the time, Soviet human rights activist Andrei Sakharov, in Massachusetts during the unrest, said he had received reports from the Soviet Union that more than 130 Armenians were killed and more than 200 wounded in the violence) and adding a sentence after saying something like: "Although the figures are said to have been mixed up with the amount of injuries that occurred". We can use this source since the other one is not online. Soviets Deny Sakharov`s Death Toll Nocturnal781 ( talk) 06:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The deaths in Kirovabad, I added a source thats third party and reliable. No Armenian deaths is not true as New York times even mentions several separate occasions where Armenians were killed in the violence. Here is a report during the pogroms, "Gennady I. Gerasimov, the Soviet Foreign Ministry's chief spokesman, said that, while there had been serious Azerbaijani attacks on Armenians, the death toll at Kirovabad stood at six. "There have been deaths, there are victims, but there has been no massacre as is being alleged" Also see; Also, three Azerbaijanis were shot and killed by troops in two separate incidents Friday night in Kirovabad, according to Soviet officials. An Armenian also died in one of the incidents. and.. In the other incident, an elderly Armenian man and a relative were run down while walking along the street in Kirovabad by a car driven by Azerbaijanis, an official Armenian government spokesman said in Moscow. The older man was killed and the other injured. Patrolling soldiers then opened fire on the car, killing one Azerbaijani and wounding a second. mentioning or saying no Armenians died is not accurate. See New York times article for which I quoted. [1] Nocturnal781 ( talk) 08:01, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
This puts the death toll at 7. 1 Armenian, 3 Azerbaijanis, and 3 Soviet soldiers. Also, why did you delete interview of KGB officers? They said that pogroms were prevented:
- Признаться, больше опасений было за Кировабад. Но там ситуацию удержали наши солдатики. Бедные, они столько натерпелись! Ведь у них даже бронежилетов не было. В солдат бросали не только камни, но порой и гранаты. И грузовик на них направляли. Вместе с ними толпу останавливали, кстати, и азербайджанцы. Так, начальник горотдела КГБ Азербайджана Рахман Микаилов даже пинками и ударами "уговаривал" земляков не делать глупостей. А его обзывали предателем. Наконец Микаилов поднял гарнизон солдат и, по сути, предотвратил побоище и погромы.
They actually said that there was no pogrom in Kirovabad, so even the name of the article is not accurate. There were some incidents, but no mass killings or anything of the sort. Grand master 10:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Another NYT article, which discounts the claims of high death toll:
Unconfirmed reports have placed the number of casualties much higher, with as many as 130 Armenians killed in clashes with Azerbaijanis in the Azerbaijani city of Kirovabad. That figure was cited in a statement today by the Soviet human rights campaigner Andrei D. Sakharov, who is visiting the United States.
Higher Figures Discounted
But official and unofficial informants in the two republics who have provided reliable reports during the last nine months of unrest discounted the higher figures, saying they were based on second- and third-hand accounts.
As we know now, Sakharov himself admitted that his figure was incorrect. Grand master 09:37, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
There's some mistake with referencing, which is why reference to Rost leads to Hovanissian, but I could not find any mention of casualties in the book by Rost either. [8] He only wrote on page 82, which is claimed to contain the info about casualties:
Attacks on Armenians and their homes became more numerous. There were attempts on the lives of Azerbaijanis. There were fatalities. Martial law was declared in Kirovabad and Nakhichevan. Troops were put on active service alert.
This source was included by a banned user years ago, and no one bothered to check. So it appears that the reference is inaccurate, and Rost did not provide any figures for Armenian casualties. Grand master 00:16, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kirovabad pogrom article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 60 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think we should remove that big clump from Andrei Sakharov memoirs. The Russian source is not available anyway. I think we should add a sentence after Sakharov deaths he thought had happened (At the time, Soviet human rights activist Andrei Sakharov, in Massachusetts during the unrest, said he had received reports from the Soviet Union that more than 130 Armenians were killed and more than 200 wounded in the violence) and adding a sentence after saying something like: "Although the figures are said to have been mixed up with the amount of injuries that occurred". We can use this source since the other one is not online. Soviets Deny Sakharov`s Death Toll Nocturnal781 ( talk) 06:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The deaths in Kirovabad, I added a source thats third party and reliable. No Armenian deaths is not true as New York times even mentions several separate occasions where Armenians were killed in the violence. Here is a report during the pogroms, "Gennady I. Gerasimov, the Soviet Foreign Ministry's chief spokesman, said that, while there had been serious Azerbaijani attacks on Armenians, the death toll at Kirovabad stood at six. "There have been deaths, there are victims, but there has been no massacre as is being alleged" Also see; Also, three Azerbaijanis were shot and killed by troops in two separate incidents Friday night in Kirovabad, according to Soviet officials. An Armenian also died in one of the incidents. and.. In the other incident, an elderly Armenian man and a relative were run down while walking along the street in Kirovabad by a car driven by Azerbaijanis, an official Armenian government spokesman said in Moscow. The older man was killed and the other injured. Patrolling soldiers then opened fire on the car, killing one Azerbaijani and wounding a second. mentioning or saying no Armenians died is not accurate. See New York times article for which I quoted. [1] Nocturnal781 ( talk) 08:01, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
This puts the death toll at 7. 1 Armenian, 3 Azerbaijanis, and 3 Soviet soldiers. Also, why did you delete interview of KGB officers? They said that pogroms were prevented:
- Признаться, больше опасений было за Кировабад. Но там ситуацию удержали наши солдатики. Бедные, они столько натерпелись! Ведь у них даже бронежилетов не было. В солдат бросали не только камни, но порой и гранаты. И грузовик на них направляли. Вместе с ними толпу останавливали, кстати, и азербайджанцы. Так, начальник горотдела КГБ Азербайджана Рахман Микаилов даже пинками и ударами "уговаривал" земляков не делать глупостей. А его обзывали предателем. Наконец Микаилов поднял гарнизон солдат и, по сути, предотвратил побоище и погромы.
They actually said that there was no pogrom in Kirovabad, so even the name of the article is not accurate. There were some incidents, but no mass killings or anything of the sort. Grand master 10:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Another NYT article, which discounts the claims of high death toll:
Unconfirmed reports have placed the number of casualties much higher, with as many as 130 Armenians killed in clashes with Azerbaijanis in the Azerbaijani city of Kirovabad. That figure was cited in a statement today by the Soviet human rights campaigner Andrei D. Sakharov, who is visiting the United States.
Higher Figures Discounted
But official and unofficial informants in the two republics who have provided reliable reports during the last nine months of unrest discounted the higher figures, saying they were based on second- and third-hand accounts.
As we know now, Sakharov himself admitted that his figure was incorrect. Grand master 09:37, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
There's some mistake with referencing, which is why reference to Rost leads to Hovanissian, but I could not find any mention of casualties in the book by Rost either. [8] He only wrote on page 82, which is claimed to contain the info about casualties:
Attacks on Armenians and their homes became more numerous. There were attempts on the lives of Azerbaijanis. There were fatalities. Martial law was declared in Kirovabad and Nakhichevan. Troops were put on active service alert.
This source was included by a banned user years ago, and no one bothered to check. So it appears that the reference is inaccurate, and Rost did not provide any figures for Armenian casualties. Grand master 00:16, 14 March 2012 (UTC)