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Archive 1 |
I've been listening to a Kiowa audio language course for several months now.
Let's just say I don't speak fluent Kiowa yet.
Gringo300 01:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How many speakers? How many fluent? On TV about 10 years ago there was an old Kiowa man who was recording all the words of the language he could on index cards, many thousands. His own children apparently did not speak Kiowa and were not interested in learning. He has died and I think the program said he was the last fluent speaker. Information about current status and speakers of the language other than specifics of phonology would be great. Badagnani ( talk) 08:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
So is it true that the gentleman featured on the TV news was indeed the last fluent individual? Badagnani ( talk) 22:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
It was probably the NBC Nightly News or something similar. It was about a 4- or 5-minute segment about the guy. I asked N. Scott Momaday about the man a few years ago and he told me he had passed away. Badagnani ( talk) 03:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is the status of our language, current as of my visit to the tribal headquarters in October 2007. The last fluent speaker is still alive and in his 90s, but he has Alzheimer's disease. A lot of the language has been recorded as oral history on tapes, but some of those original tapes were stolen by a individual from a university to transcribe and never returned. (Yes, it was not the best idea to send out originals with no copies.) It seems there is no one alive and in control of his faculties that knows the full language, but there is a small revival going on and classes are available which are taught be Alecia Gonzales, who has also written the only accessible Kiowa textbook for students. There is an Australian linguist who is probably the most fluent person in Kiowa living right now. There is a small amount of controversy about whether anyone is completely fluent in the language right now. There are some people who say they are fluent, but there are others who dispute that. Xj ( talk) 11:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The University of Oklahoma in Norman and the University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma in Chickasha both offer Kiowa language classes. Alecia Gonzales (Kiowa-Apache), who teaches at USAO, created a Kiowa teaching grammar called, Thaum khoiye tdoen gyah : beginning Kiowa language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uyvsdi ( talk • contribs) 00:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The Intertribal Wordpath Society, a nonprofit group dedicated to preserving native languages of Oklahoma, estimates the maximum number of fluent Kiowa speakers as of 2006 to be 400. Uyvsdi ( talk) 00:24, 19 December 2008 (UTC)Uyvsdi.
I added an updated link to the IWS' site. Their estimate of speakers of Oklahoma languages can be found on this page: [1] and is based on work with each of the tribes (the numbers come from tribal members). Both 2000 and 2006 estimates are listed, and real figures are probably smaller since every single year we lose more native speakers. The US Census is notoriously inaccurate when it comes to Native American populations. For instance, no less than 700,000 people claimed to be Cherokee in the 2000 Census. And there's always a wide range between being fluent, being conversant, and knowing a few phrases.
I mentioned the Kiowa language programs at OU and USAO so people would know who to contact if they want to study the language. The Kiowa Tribe doesn't mention a language program on their site, but if they have one, they should be listed as the "go to" people. Uyvsdi ( talk) 01:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
The estimate cited by the IWS is not mine; it does, however, agree with that of Parker McKenzie. And the IWS is not non-Kiowa. Jerry Bread serves on the board and Gus Palmer, Jr. has been involved with the organization as has Alecia Gonzales. Uyvsdi ( talk) 02:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Hold those thoughts... Uyvsdi ( talk) 17:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Note from a Kiowa:
Many times I've read that our language is, 'Tanoan'. I took that as fact, since I read it. But, later in life I met many Pueblo folks who are said to have a 'Tanoan' language, and their words are not anything like our language. I also spoke to a friend south-ways who speaks Aztecan, which is also said to be a 'Tanoan' language. None of her words for any common thing even remotely resembled our language.
Then, there is the fact that the 'Tanoan' language speaking folks seem to be located in the south of the current U.S. and further into Mexico. Yet, our people (Kiowas) originated at our earliest understanding, near the Kootenay region of current British Columbia (Canada). Our custums are certainly northern plains. And, our living oral history within our own tribe is of our lands in the Black Hills in which the Lakota now reside.
How is our Kiowa language "Tanoan"? When we are not southern people in origin and none of our living language resembles in any way the existing 'Tanoan' languages?
Maybe 'cause we have some sounds that other languages have?
Like...in chinese many words end with 'ing' so, following the same premise, many words in english end with 'ing', too. English must therefore be an Asian dialect, eh?
LOL
Just kidding...but, still curious how Kiowa is classified as 'Tanoan'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.24.5 ( talk) 19:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very much for that information ishwar. Dear 'Unsigned Kiowa person' (I wish you had a handle so I could address you properly my friend!), there are extensive cultural and historical connections between us and the Tanonan Puebloans. We traded extensively with Tewa speakers, trading meat for corn and beads for example, and the connection was so strong that you do find strong historical Kiowa influences among northern Tewa, such as their unique adoption of our braided hair styles, leggings and shirts. Our remembered oral history goes back far before the Dakotas, to Bear Butte, and before that to Yellowstone, which is just north of the Puebloan region. Think of our earliest origin stories, what would you say they are? Well they are Grandmother Spider and the Sacred Twins, I am sure you will agree. These are all Puebloan stories, and they go back even earlier than the Tanoan split, they are held by Uto-Aztecans as well. I will also caution you in advance that if you discuss these issues with the white man, they will question your academic credentials, declare that they know far more about indian matters than you ever could, and imply clearly through their arrogance that us simple red men are not qualified to remember our own histories. It is their loss. All my relations! Xj ( talk) 11:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I must not have been signed in when I posted the, "Why Tanoan" entry.
I read and appreciate the comments by iswar. But, I still don't see how our language is "Tanoan".
Do you know of any Kiowa words that are in any way similar to another 'Tanoan' language?
Or, maybe, like when you hear Japanese being spoken today, many English words get thrown in their sentences...especially when talking about pop-culture or technology. Even though Japanese uses many English words today, their language is not related to English. Maybe these 'related' words they found to categorize our language as "Tanoan" were simply ones we picked up in dealings with other tribes.
Just looking for simple examples of common words that show a relation between our language and other "Tanoan" languages.
We do have a long relationship with the Puebloan folks, and I agree that the stories of the Zaiday-Tahlee are probably shared from their culture. But you can find such 'sacred twin' stories in almost all cultures. I just Google'd 'sacred twins' and saw some from India, Africa and Rome.
I'm just not sure that equates to us being the same language family.
Scott Zotigh
hmm.. Come to think of it...since our Zaiday-Tahlee is probably shared from those Pueblo folks...what is their word for 'half boys'? Is it similar in sound to 'Zaiday-Tahlee'?
Just curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It'd prolly clear up a bit if you knew our custom of names after death.
I gather from your wall of words above that your efforts at classification can only make us the singular 'northern' branch of the Anasazi. heh. With no words to match any language. Yeah! 'Anasazi'! "That's the ticket! None of them are around to dispute our uber-clever classification, anyway!"
Therefore, this Kiowa 'linguist' classifies English as the only western branch of Chinese language, although it could also be a Japanese relative. Ohh!! Or, Korean!! Yeah! "Meeso horn.." uhm...that sounds like english. Yeah...could be Korean, too.
Things are slow in the "Near Dead Languages" department.
Scott —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 05:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Proto-Kiowa-Tanoan | English | German | French | Italian | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
consonant | environment | |||||||||
*Mmmmm | mmmmm, luv | ya, mmmmmm | oui, est mmmm | si..mmmm |
Lemme put your words to work, by substituting "Kiowa" for "English"...
"Actually, English is not Asian. Rather is a single of language on the English branch of the four-branch English-Asian family tree (the other branches are Chinese, Japanese, and Korean (South)."
I simply changed your weird words to be my weird words. They are both weird.
You stating emphatically that Kiowa is *not* Tanoan, yet is part of some Tanoan tree is...weird.
Thanks for your input, annonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Jemez p | Kiowa p | ||
---|---|---|---|
-pǫ | 'noise, sound' | pǫʔe | 'to sound, ring' |
pɨ̨̋- (compound form) | 'sight, seeing' | pǫ- (compound form) | 'to see' |
(mɨ̨̋ | 'to see' | bǫ̂ | 'to see') cf. compound form above |
pæ̋ | 'to be dead' | pe | 'dead' |
pį̀· | 'to go out of fire' | pɔ̨· | 'to extinguish' |
pį̀-kʸi | 'to extinguish' | ||
pæ̋pɨʔye, pètɨ | 'brother' | pa·bi | |
pe̋ | 'to think' | pe-l | |
pe̋ | 'sun, summer' | pa-e | |
pè | 'fear' | pe | 'to fear transitive' |
pèʔa | 'to fear' | ||
pæ̨̋· | 'deer' | pį | 'food, meal' |
pæ̀hele-š | 'rug' | pa-l | 'bed, bedding, quilt' |
Jemez p’ | Kiowa p’ | ||
p’æ̋· | 'moon' | p’ɔ- | |
p’æ̋· | 'sister' | p’i | |
p’į̋· | 'to twist' | p’ǫ-n | 'to braid' |
p’æ̀ | 'water' | p’ɔ | 'river' |
ʔɔ· (compound form) | 'river, water' | ||
p’į̋·t’o | '5' | ʔɔ́nt’ɔ | |
Jemez φ | Kiowa pʰ | ||
φő· | 'rope, snare' | pʰo | 'trap, snare' |
φòh | 'to break wind, smell of skunk' | pʰo- | 'to vent wind' |
φòʔ | 'head louse' | pʰo | |
φő-se | 'to blow' | pʰo-l-e | |
φæ̀ʔ | 'light, flame' | pʰí | |
φæ̀ʔya | 'fire' | ||
φà | 'body hair' | pʰɔ·- | |
φő·la | 'head hair' | ||
φò· | 'bush' | pʰe-p | |
φò-š | 'leaf' | pʰo-l | 'branch, limb' |
Jemez t | Kiowa t | ||
ti̋ | 'to say, utter' | tǫ- | |
tɨ̏·- | 'house, building, structure' | tó· | |
tɨ̨̋ | 'to stretch, pull' | tę-m | 'to pull' |
tɨ̨̋- | 'whistling' | t | |
tɨ̨̋-š | 'whistle, flute' | tǫ-bɔ·-t | 'flute, wind instrument' |
Jemez s | Kiowa t | ||
se̋ | 'eye' | ta | |
sè | 'to be cooked, done' | ta | 'to be ripe, cooked' |
sæ̋- | 'to wake intr.' | ta-e | |
sɨ̨̀ʔ | 'fat' | tǫ-n | |
Jemez t’ | Kiowa t’ | ||
t’ò-š | 'face' | t’ó-ba | |
t’à· | 'antelope' | t’a-p- | 'deer, antelope' |
t’à· | 'antelope' | t’ɔ·- | 'deer, antelope' |
t’æ̀-kʸe | 'to hear, understand' | t’ɔ | |
t’æ̋h | 'liver' | t’ɔ-l | 'liver, kidney' |
t’e̋š | 'to break string, rope' | t’a-t | 'to sever one, cut one, break a string in one place' |
t’ő-le | 'to cut, sever' | ||
t’e̋-pe | 'to trap' | t’a·-dɔ | 'to shut in' |
we̋·-t’e | 'cold' | t’o | 'to be cold' |
Jemez š | Kiowa tʰ~c | ||
šį̋· | 'to drink' | tʰǫ́-m | |
šį̋· | 'to find' | tʰɔ̨-n | |
šà-pe | 'to shoot with an arrow' | tʰɔ-t-gɔ | 'to shoot' |
šòʔ | 'to go out, exit' | tʰe-p | |
šæ̨̋ | 'to arrive' | cą-n | |
Jemez k | Kiowa k | ||
kɨ̨̋-ma-kʸe | 'to buy' | kɔ̨́·dɔ- | |
kɨ̨̋ | 'to bring' | kɔ̨́-n | |
ke̋·- | 'swimming' | kɔ·- | |
kɨ̨̋· | 'dance' | ku-n-gʸa |
Thanks, but not using that most common criterion seems strange. One can hand-pick any two languages and find a great many coincidentally common (or very similar) syllables for the same concepts, at least a few dozen, even if the languages aren't related at all (or tens of thousands of years ago at least). Can we determine why he chose not to use the Swadesh list? Has no scholar done that for Kiowa and the other Tanoan languages? It's not making sense. Badagnani ( talk) 03:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Wow... so, our Kiowa language is now "Towa"? Because some words start with the same sound? I wonder how many global languages are now related because their words start with similar sounds.
I can't read the goofy letters after the first letters you show. But, the goofy letters following the first letters seem to always be diferent from the goofy letters you show in our words. I'm no linguist. Just a curious Kiowa man. Could you spell examples out for common folk to read? Like, "pah-bi" = 'brother'. "Bay-saw" = 'sit down'. "Ay-bah" = 'bread'. "Tah-lee" = 'boy'. "Zame-kee" = you. ( hehe j/k (oh! maybe your knowledge of 'Tanoan' languages could tell you what I called you. Maybe. Maybe we aren't 'Tanoan' enough for that.) Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 05:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay...pah-bi would be a bad example in modern times, due to the influence of Kiowa culture on modern pow-wows, many non-kiowas use our word 'pah-bi' for 'brother'. I guess if a linguist today were researching languages at some dance and heard 'pah-bi' spoken, they'd assume it was part of whatever tribe the speaker was from. We are all related. As the Lakota often say. I guess we are. All the way back to whatever ameoba we all came from. But, I'm still wondering what made us Kiowa be "Tanoan". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 05:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious...does no other language in history share "alternation of initial consonants in verb stems"? If that is the 'conclusive' evidence the annonymous person of 'ishway' presents.
He(she) makes it sound like that is the convincing (annonymnous) argument.
How does one get a real 'linguist' to come into these threads and help sort things out. I'm obviously not a 'linguist'.
"Ishway" is posting a lot, but she doesn't seem to be a linguist, either. Still grateful to have her input, though.
Is there not a qualified linguist who would lay it out simple to the understanding of any Kiowa person and to the like of folks like 'ishway' at the same time?
Or, is that impossible?
Oh, God! And, please be it a person not hiding behind a cyber-mask. Reminds me of..."what's wrong? Are you terribly deformed behind that mask or are you a criminal".
LoL The folks hiding behind cyber-masks... they must be terribly deformed or criminals.
Is there not a real linguist who could jump in and help clarify the Kiowa as Tanoan issue?
Thanks,
Scott Zotigh —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 07:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
can you tell me how to spell: Zame-thay, Ba-gaw, ennit (lol), ay (ayyyy), t'oma, and the word for salt? Teresa —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shizbit ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Please check this edit for veracity. Badagnani ( talk) 06:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Prepared to show due respect and think better of you folks that are hiding behind cyber-masks. I know I'm wrong in some way. Just hoping you annonymous folks will help clarify the reason us Kiowa folks are Tanoan.
Kinda hard to put weight into your words when you yourselves feel you have to hide.
:/
If you can, as real folks posting...how is Kiowa 'Tanoan'?
Thanks!
Scott —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.95.50.12 ( talk) 05:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I've been listening to a Kiowa audio language course for several months now.
Let's just say I don't speak fluent Kiowa yet.
Gringo300 01:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How many speakers? How many fluent? On TV about 10 years ago there was an old Kiowa man who was recording all the words of the language he could on index cards, many thousands. His own children apparently did not speak Kiowa and were not interested in learning. He has died and I think the program said he was the last fluent speaker. Information about current status and speakers of the language other than specifics of phonology would be great. Badagnani ( talk) 08:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
So is it true that the gentleman featured on the TV news was indeed the last fluent individual? Badagnani ( talk) 22:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
It was probably the NBC Nightly News or something similar. It was about a 4- or 5-minute segment about the guy. I asked N. Scott Momaday about the man a few years ago and he told me he had passed away. Badagnani ( talk) 03:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is the status of our language, current as of my visit to the tribal headquarters in October 2007. The last fluent speaker is still alive and in his 90s, but he has Alzheimer's disease. A lot of the language has been recorded as oral history on tapes, but some of those original tapes were stolen by a individual from a university to transcribe and never returned. (Yes, it was not the best idea to send out originals with no copies.) It seems there is no one alive and in control of his faculties that knows the full language, but there is a small revival going on and classes are available which are taught be Alecia Gonzales, who has also written the only accessible Kiowa textbook for students. There is an Australian linguist who is probably the most fluent person in Kiowa living right now. There is a small amount of controversy about whether anyone is completely fluent in the language right now. There are some people who say they are fluent, but there are others who dispute that. Xj ( talk) 11:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The University of Oklahoma in Norman and the University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma in Chickasha both offer Kiowa language classes. Alecia Gonzales (Kiowa-Apache), who teaches at USAO, created a Kiowa teaching grammar called, Thaum khoiye tdoen gyah : beginning Kiowa language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uyvsdi ( talk • contribs) 00:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The Intertribal Wordpath Society, a nonprofit group dedicated to preserving native languages of Oklahoma, estimates the maximum number of fluent Kiowa speakers as of 2006 to be 400. Uyvsdi ( talk) 00:24, 19 December 2008 (UTC)Uyvsdi.
I added an updated link to the IWS' site. Their estimate of speakers of Oklahoma languages can be found on this page: [1] and is based on work with each of the tribes (the numbers come from tribal members). Both 2000 and 2006 estimates are listed, and real figures are probably smaller since every single year we lose more native speakers. The US Census is notoriously inaccurate when it comes to Native American populations. For instance, no less than 700,000 people claimed to be Cherokee in the 2000 Census. And there's always a wide range between being fluent, being conversant, and knowing a few phrases.
I mentioned the Kiowa language programs at OU and USAO so people would know who to contact if they want to study the language. The Kiowa Tribe doesn't mention a language program on their site, but if they have one, they should be listed as the "go to" people. Uyvsdi ( talk) 01:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
The estimate cited by the IWS is not mine; it does, however, agree with that of Parker McKenzie. And the IWS is not non-Kiowa. Jerry Bread serves on the board and Gus Palmer, Jr. has been involved with the organization as has Alecia Gonzales. Uyvsdi ( talk) 02:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Hold those thoughts... Uyvsdi ( talk) 17:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Note from a Kiowa:
Many times I've read that our language is, 'Tanoan'. I took that as fact, since I read it. But, later in life I met many Pueblo folks who are said to have a 'Tanoan' language, and their words are not anything like our language. I also spoke to a friend south-ways who speaks Aztecan, which is also said to be a 'Tanoan' language. None of her words for any common thing even remotely resembled our language.
Then, there is the fact that the 'Tanoan' language speaking folks seem to be located in the south of the current U.S. and further into Mexico. Yet, our people (Kiowas) originated at our earliest understanding, near the Kootenay region of current British Columbia (Canada). Our custums are certainly northern plains. And, our living oral history within our own tribe is of our lands in the Black Hills in which the Lakota now reside.
How is our Kiowa language "Tanoan"? When we are not southern people in origin and none of our living language resembles in any way the existing 'Tanoan' languages?
Maybe 'cause we have some sounds that other languages have?
Like...in chinese many words end with 'ing' so, following the same premise, many words in english end with 'ing', too. English must therefore be an Asian dialect, eh?
LOL
Just kidding...but, still curious how Kiowa is classified as 'Tanoan'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.24.5 ( talk) 19:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very much for that information ishwar. Dear 'Unsigned Kiowa person' (I wish you had a handle so I could address you properly my friend!), there are extensive cultural and historical connections between us and the Tanonan Puebloans. We traded extensively with Tewa speakers, trading meat for corn and beads for example, and the connection was so strong that you do find strong historical Kiowa influences among northern Tewa, such as their unique adoption of our braided hair styles, leggings and shirts. Our remembered oral history goes back far before the Dakotas, to Bear Butte, and before that to Yellowstone, which is just north of the Puebloan region. Think of our earliest origin stories, what would you say they are? Well they are Grandmother Spider and the Sacred Twins, I am sure you will agree. These are all Puebloan stories, and they go back even earlier than the Tanoan split, they are held by Uto-Aztecans as well. I will also caution you in advance that if you discuss these issues with the white man, they will question your academic credentials, declare that they know far more about indian matters than you ever could, and imply clearly through their arrogance that us simple red men are not qualified to remember our own histories. It is their loss. All my relations! Xj ( talk) 11:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I must not have been signed in when I posted the, "Why Tanoan" entry.
I read and appreciate the comments by iswar. But, I still don't see how our language is "Tanoan".
Do you know of any Kiowa words that are in any way similar to another 'Tanoan' language?
Or, maybe, like when you hear Japanese being spoken today, many English words get thrown in their sentences...especially when talking about pop-culture or technology. Even though Japanese uses many English words today, their language is not related to English. Maybe these 'related' words they found to categorize our language as "Tanoan" were simply ones we picked up in dealings with other tribes.
Just looking for simple examples of common words that show a relation between our language and other "Tanoan" languages.
We do have a long relationship with the Puebloan folks, and I agree that the stories of the Zaiday-Tahlee are probably shared from their culture. But you can find such 'sacred twin' stories in almost all cultures. I just Google'd 'sacred twins' and saw some from India, Africa and Rome.
I'm just not sure that equates to us being the same language family.
Scott Zotigh
hmm.. Come to think of it...since our Zaiday-Tahlee is probably shared from those Pueblo folks...what is their word for 'half boys'? Is it similar in sound to 'Zaiday-Tahlee'?
Just curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It'd prolly clear up a bit if you knew our custom of names after death.
I gather from your wall of words above that your efforts at classification can only make us the singular 'northern' branch of the Anasazi. heh. With no words to match any language. Yeah! 'Anasazi'! "That's the ticket! None of them are around to dispute our uber-clever classification, anyway!"
Therefore, this Kiowa 'linguist' classifies English as the only western branch of Chinese language, although it could also be a Japanese relative. Ohh!! Or, Korean!! Yeah! "Meeso horn.." uhm...that sounds like english. Yeah...could be Korean, too.
Things are slow in the "Near Dead Languages" department.
Scott —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 05:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Proto-Kiowa-Tanoan | English | German | French | Italian | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
consonant | environment | |||||||||
*Mmmmm | mmmmm, luv | ya, mmmmmm | oui, est mmmm | si..mmmm |
Lemme put your words to work, by substituting "Kiowa" for "English"...
"Actually, English is not Asian. Rather is a single of language on the English branch of the four-branch English-Asian family tree (the other branches are Chinese, Japanese, and Korean (South)."
I simply changed your weird words to be my weird words. They are both weird.
You stating emphatically that Kiowa is *not* Tanoan, yet is part of some Tanoan tree is...weird.
Thanks for your input, annonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Jemez p | Kiowa p | ||
---|---|---|---|
-pǫ | 'noise, sound' | pǫʔe | 'to sound, ring' |
pɨ̨̋- (compound form) | 'sight, seeing' | pǫ- (compound form) | 'to see' |
(mɨ̨̋ | 'to see' | bǫ̂ | 'to see') cf. compound form above |
pæ̋ | 'to be dead' | pe | 'dead' |
pį̀· | 'to go out of fire' | pɔ̨· | 'to extinguish' |
pį̀-kʸi | 'to extinguish' | ||
pæ̋pɨʔye, pètɨ | 'brother' | pa·bi | |
pe̋ | 'to think' | pe-l | |
pe̋ | 'sun, summer' | pa-e | |
pè | 'fear' | pe | 'to fear transitive' |
pèʔa | 'to fear' | ||
pæ̨̋· | 'deer' | pį | 'food, meal' |
pæ̀hele-š | 'rug' | pa-l | 'bed, bedding, quilt' |
Jemez p’ | Kiowa p’ | ||
p’æ̋· | 'moon' | p’ɔ- | |
p’æ̋· | 'sister' | p’i | |
p’į̋· | 'to twist' | p’ǫ-n | 'to braid' |
p’æ̀ | 'water' | p’ɔ | 'river' |
ʔɔ· (compound form) | 'river, water' | ||
p’į̋·t’o | '5' | ʔɔ́nt’ɔ | |
Jemez φ | Kiowa pʰ | ||
φő· | 'rope, snare' | pʰo | 'trap, snare' |
φòh | 'to break wind, smell of skunk' | pʰo- | 'to vent wind' |
φòʔ | 'head louse' | pʰo | |
φő-se | 'to blow' | pʰo-l-e | |
φæ̀ʔ | 'light, flame' | pʰí | |
φæ̀ʔya | 'fire' | ||
φà | 'body hair' | pʰɔ·- | |
φő·la | 'head hair' | ||
φò· | 'bush' | pʰe-p | |
φò-š | 'leaf' | pʰo-l | 'branch, limb' |
Jemez t | Kiowa t | ||
ti̋ | 'to say, utter' | tǫ- | |
tɨ̏·- | 'house, building, structure' | tó· | |
tɨ̨̋ | 'to stretch, pull' | tę-m | 'to pull' |
tɨ̨̋- | 'whistling' | t | |
tɨ̨̋-š | 'whistle, flute' | tǫ-bɔ·-t | 'flute, wind instrument' |
Jemez s | Kiowa t | ||
se̋ | 'eye' | ta | |
sè | 'to be cooked, done' | ta | 'to be ripe, cooked' |
sæ̋- | 'to wake intr.' | ta-e | |
sɨ̨̀ʔ | 'fat' | tǫ-n | |
Jemez t’ | Kiowa t’ | ||
t’ò-š | 'face' | t’ó-ba | |
t’à· | 'antelope' | t’a-p- | 'deer, antelope' |
t’à· | 'antelope' | t’ɔ·- | 'deer, antelope' |
t’æ̀-kʸe | 'to hear, understand' | t’ɔ | |
t’æ̋h | 'liver' | t’ɔ-l | 'liver, kidney' |
t’e̋š | 'to break string, rope' | t’a-t | 'to sever one, cut one, break a string in one place' |
t’ő-le | 'to cut, sever' | ||
t’e̋-pe | 'to trap' | t’a·-dɔ | 'to shut in' |
we̋·-t’e | 'cold' | t’o | 'to be cold' |
Jemez š | Kiowa tʰ~c | ||
šį̋· | 'to drink' | tʰǫ́-m | |
šį̋· | 'to find' | tʰɔ̨-n | |
šà-pe | 'to shoot with an arrow' | tʰɔ-t-gɔ | 'to shoot' |
šòʔ | 'to go out, exit' | tʰe-p | |
šæ̨̋ | 'to arrive' | cą-n | |
Jemez k | Kiowa k | ||
kɨ̨̋-ma-kʸe | 'to buy' | kɔ̨́·dɔ- | |
kɨ̨̋ | 'to bring' | kɔ̨́-n | |
ke̋·- | 'swimming' | kɔ·- | |
kɨ̨̋· | 'dance' | ku-n-gʸa |
Thanks, but not using that most common criterion seems strange. One can hand-pick any two languages and find a great many coincidentally common (or very similar) syllables for the same concepts, at least a few dozen, even if the languages aren't related at all (or tens of thousands of years ago at least). Can we determine why he chose not to use the Swadesh list? Has no scholar done that for Kiowa and the other Tanoan languages? It's not making sense. Badagnani ( talk) 03:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Wow... so, our Kiowa language is now "Towa"? Because some words start with the same sound? I wonder how many global languages are now related because their words start with similar sounds.
I can't read the goofy letters after the first letters you show. But, the goofy letters following the first letters seem to always be diferent from the goofy letters you show in our words. I'm no linguist. Just a curious Kiowa man. Could you spell examples out for common folk to read? Like, "pah-bi" = 'brother'. "Bay-saw" = 'sit down'. "Ay-bah" = 'bread'. "Tah-lee" = 'boy'. "Zame-kee" = you. ( hehe j/k (oh! maybe your knowledge of 'Tanoan' languages could tell you what I called you. Maybe. Maybe we aren't 'Tanoan' enough for that.) Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 05:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay...pah-bi would be a bad example in modern times, due to the influence of Kiowa culture on modern pow-wows, many non-kiowas use our word 'pah-bi' for 'brother'. I guess if a linguist today were researching languages at some dance and heard 'pah-bi' spoken, they'd assume it was part of whatever tribe the speaker was from. We are all related. As the Lakota often say. I guess we are. All the way back to whatever ameoba we all came from. But, I'm still wondering what made us Kiowa be "Tanoan". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 05:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious...does no other language in history share "alternation of initial consonants in verb stems"? If that is the 'conclusive' evidence the annonymous person of 'ishway' presents.
He(she) makes it sound like that is the convincing (annonymnous) argument.
How does one get a real 'linguist' to come into these threads and help sort things out. I'm obviously not a 'linguist'.
"Ishway" is posting a lot, but she doesn't seem to be a linguist, either. Still grateful to have her input, though.
Is there not a qualified linguist who would lay it out simple to the understanding of any Kiowa person and to the like of folks like 'ishway' at the same time?
Or, is that impossible?
Oh, God! And, please be it a person not hiding behind a cyber-mask. Reminds me of..."what's wrong? Are you terribly deformed behind that mask or are you a criminal".
LoL The folks hiding behind cyber-masks... they must be terribly deformed or criminals.
Is there not a real linguist who could jump in and help clarify the Kiowa as Tanoan issue?
Thanks,
Scott Zotigh —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotigh ( talk • contribs) 07:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
can you tell me how to spell: Zame-thay, Ba-gaw, ennit (lol), ay (ayyyy), t'oma, and the word for salt? Teresa —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shizbit ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Please check this edit for veracity. Badagnani ( talk) 06:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Prepared to show due respect and think better of you folks that are hiding behind cyber-masks. I know I'm wrong in some way. Just hoping you annonymous folks will help clarify the reason us Kiowa folks are Tanoan.
Kinda hard to put weight into your words when you yourselves feel you have to hide.
:/
If you can, as real folks posting...how is Kiowa 'Tanoan'?
Thanks!
Scott —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.95.50.12 ( talk) 05:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
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