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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:49, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I removed the section on English kinship terminology for three reasons.
While I agree with the removal of this information from this page, I cannot agree with your reasons for it.
I changed the wording "Western society" to "English speaking societies". It's clearly not an ideal wording either since there other societies sharing the same character, but it seems more reasonable to write something inaccurate than something truly false and ignorant. Another solution could be to emphasize even more that it's Morgan's views and words, if that is the case. This could be said e.g. with a title: Morgan's thoughts. The words "Western society" should not be used when meaning an English speaking society and maybe a couple of other societies having a similar logic in the language. The so called Western countries are NOT culturally uniform in the matter and therefore also languages differ in the case. -Western European Finnish speaker- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.157.74.216 ( talk) 14:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I also just removed a good deal of information on marriage and the family. These topics are different from kinship terminology and already have their own articles. I see no point in duplicating material in ther articles on related - but different - topics here. Let's just have links, and work on each article separately. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I like to get all details. I wil donate for the xtra Kb of storage Nasz 09:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
There needs to be a section on English kinship terminology, because the lack of one leaves a gaping hole in the article, since it discusses other kinship terminology in English and using English terms. And people looking for information English kinship terminology will be directed here, though they may find some information in the Cousin article. SteveH ( talk) 03:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
I removed this from the article ...
...because this is not one of the six systems laid out by Morgan. "Crow" kinship does not refer to the kindship of the Crow but to a system found widely around the world in different specific forms. This article is not the place to go into detail on every language. Besides, the above seems to violate NOR and NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
A number of terms redirect to this page but are not discussed here. For example, I came here via "Avunculocal" which is not mentioned at all in this article. Should the redirects be made into their own articles, or can someone flesh out the information here? 72.196.104.129 22:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I came here via "Consanguine" but there was no reference in the article either. 220.255.41.232 ( talk) 13:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Same with "neolocal" which redirects here even though it actually has its own article, neolocal residence. Absolutely senseless. Kbog ( talk) 22:53, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
From Eskimo kinship: "Morgan's system of classification is considered obsolete in current mainstream anthropology." What then is the modern view? 149.159.112.89 22:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The definitions are a little unclear; as seen in common mid-20th-century use, the terms were really most clearly defined on the sibling-cousin generation:
The Dravidian notions of kinship are built into the language.It is difficult to understand this kinship without a knowledge of the actual terms employed.
amma, appa - mother, father
akka, anna - elder sister, elder brother
thangai, thambi - younger sister, younger brother
pattan, patti - grandpa, grandma
periyamma - mother's elder sister, or father's elder brother's wife
periyappa - father's elder brother, or mother's elder sister's nusband
chiththappa - father's younger brother, or mother's younger sister's husband
chiththi - mother's younger sister, or father's younger brother's wife
[Note: Children of periappa /periamma, and chiththi /chiththappa are NOT cousins but brothers and sisters "of the first remove ('onnu vittadu')." Marriage between them is strictly forbidden and considered incestuous. Only "cross" cousins are considered cousins.]
mama - mother's brother, or father's sister's husband
aththai - father's sister, or mother's brother's wife
aththan - son of aththai and mama, also general term for husband
[Note: The children of one's father's sisters (aththai) and mother's brothers (mama) (or "cross" cousins) are considered potential mates or "muraippasangal." "Murai" is the right to claim to a cross cousin. Marriage between such cousins is the norm. Such cousins are often "meant" for one another from birth.]
marumagan - for a man, his sister's son (as his brother's son is his son);for a woman, her brother's son (her sister's son being her son);also, general term for son-in-law
marumagal - for a man, his sister's daughter (as his brother's daughter is his daughter);for a woman, her brother's daughter (her sister's daughter being her daughter);also, general term for daughter-in-law
Some Tamil communities also practise uncle-niece marriages where the maternal uncle (mother's younger brother) may marry his niece (his elder sister's daughter). Hence, the term "muraimaman" for one's mother's younger brother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.84 ( talk) 06:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
If the so called Dravidian kinship is indeed so distinct to be recognized as the seventh type, why there is not a colourful scheme of it, together with schemes made for the six Morgan's kinships? Which is more, there is not a distinct Wikipedia article on Dravidian kinship. Ass for now, all that one can learn from Wikipedia is that it is based on an obscure modulo-2 rule (obscure, because neither illustrated with a scheme nor explained with the help of contrasting it with other kinship terminologies).
Information on Dravidian kinship is scattered and hard to find for a non-specialist. Which is more, there are articles, books etc., which do not even mention such a kinship type, treating the Tamil system as an example of the Iroquois terminology.
So, the question seems to be very simple: if Iroquois and Dravidian kinship systems are really so distinct, why not to point the difference in a clear way?
From what I have managed to find so far, I can suppose that the two systems are basically the same, contrary to what some persons say. There is no differences between Dravidian and Iroquois as long as we limit ourselves to siblings and first cousins. The difference seems to be of really less importance, and manifests itself only when analysing second cousins (so, at the level not used while examining all the other kinship systems). In other words, if we followed the criteria for the six Morgan's systems, there would not be a distinct Dravidian kinship at all (indeed, many sources on kinship systems do not mention any seventh type at all as it is mathematically impossible). It would be at most a sub-type of the Iroquois kinship.
If I am wrong, please correct me, and place a good scheme that would show the differences between Dravidian and all the other types of kinship. And in any case, add more information on Dravidian kinship if you can!
31.11.242.188 ( talk) 13:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
Nevertheless, please add a colourful scheme to show the differences between Iroquois and Dravidian. Or stop terming Dravidian the seventh system, and make it a subtype of Iroquois. A scheme is still needed in this case, though. 178.235.146.66 ( talk) 09:12, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Maybe this might help: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Section-Logic-and-Cross-Parallel-Terminology-in-Canonical-Dravidian-Adapted-from-Tjon-Sie_fig1_227855133 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.133.94.176 ( talk) 19:42, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
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The six types of kinship terminology may be prevalent but they are not the only ones. There also exist (existed?) mixed terminologies, and one of them was the one formerly used in Polish (with many traces preserved even now among some Poles). Here is the list of the main terms that are used as criteria of Morgan’s typology:
F – ojciec (formerly: ociec),
M – matka (formerly: mać),
FB – stryj,
MB – wuj,
FZ = MZ – ciotka (formerly: ciota),
B = FBS = FZS = MBS = MZS – brat,
Z = FBD = FZD = MBD = MZD – siostra.
FB and MB were (and sometimes still are) named with different terms like in Sudanese terminology - but one term for FZ and MZ (different than just “mother”) was (and still is) a characteristic feature of Eskimo terminology. Modern Polish is clearly Eskimo in this respect: wujek means both FB and MB (as well as FZH and MZH, exactly like “uncle” in English).
On the other hand, one term for brothers and cousins was exactly like in Hawaiian system! The term “cousin” (Modern Polish: kuzyn (male), kuzynka (female)) was unknown, and in a case of necessity brat rodzony (B), brat stryjeczny (FBS), brat wujeczny (MBS), brat cioteczny (FZS or MZS) etc., were (and sometimes still are) in use - but such two-words terms were (are) no way obligatory. Some time ago kuzyn, kuzynka were already known but they were only used for more distant relatives (cousins), not for children of uncles and aunts (and such a custom is still alive in some regions of the country). Modern literary Polish is Eskimo in this respect too: kuzyn (male cousin) and kuzynka (female cousin) are in common usage for all cousins (not removed, though).
So, what type was the Old Polish terminology kinship? Sudanese (FB stryj different than MB wuj), Eskimo (M matka different than “aunt” — but both FZ and MZ ciotka) or Hawaiian (all first cousins treated exactly as siblings)? Obviously none of them.
Other Old Polish kinship terms for curious ones: S – syn, D – córa, H – mąż (małżonek), W – żona, HB – dziewierz, WB – szurzy, HZ – zełwa, WZ – świeść, HBW – jątrew, WZH – paszenog, ZH – swak, BW – bratowa, BS – synowiec (for a man, i.e. uncle) or brataniec (for a woman, i.e. aunt), BD – synowica (for uncle) or bratanica (for aunt), ZS – siostrzeniec, ZD – siostrzenica, FF = MF – dziad, FM = MM – baba, SS = DS – wnuk, SD = DD – wnuka, HF – świekier (or: świekr), HM – świekra (older: świekrew), WF – teść (older: cieść), WM – teścia (older: ćcia), DH – zięć, SW - snecha (there were also some others, less common and older, like nieć for PGCS and nieściora for PGCD, used in 16th century, now completely forgotten and known only to specialists). Now only part of these terms have survived, some of them sometimes heard, others are slightly modified, yet others out of any use. Note no common terms for “nephew” and “niece”, even today. 178.235.146.66 ( talk) 12:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
In introducing Morgan's classification the article reads:
For example, most kinship terminologies distinguish between sexes (the difference between a brother and a sister) and between generations (the difference between a child and a parent).
Ergo, the six-fold classification fails to account for kinship terminologies, such as those of Malay (and many other Malaysian and Indonesian societies), that in many contexts don't distinguish gender. How does anthropology describe or classify such a scheme?
I'll detail one example that I know quite well. In Malay, regardless of gender, one calls (i.e. describes and addresses):
(However, although one describes one's first cousin (all four types) as anak sepupu, one addresses him or her as a sibling - see below).
Other principles are dominant. For example, as in the Filipino terminology, relative age is important - in Malay, one distinguishes older sibling (kakak) from younger sibling (adik). Also, even strangers are classificatory kin: to address a much older male in Malay, one addresses him as pak cik (for a female, mak cik) which effectively calls him "uncle" (and her "aunt"). Gender sometimes figures in kin terms, but mostly attributively e.g. anak lelaki is only used to describe (but not to address) one's son, when the distinction is relevant. The only obligatory recognition of gender is in terms for mother, father, aunt, uncle; and for some speakers (but not all), grandfather (datuk) is distinct from grandmother (nenek).
So which of Morgan's six kinship terminologies does this fall under - if any? yoyo ( talk) 15:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
The article mentions self-reciprocal terms (two relatives calling one another "-ch’iné"), but other reciprocal terms (e.g. grandfather-granddaughter) are not mentioned. I have read that it is a general rule that kinship terms are reciprocal except for gender (i.e. anyone who calls a person "grandfather" is their grandson or granddaughter). If this is the case, could it be mentioned, please? I found the existing "Identification of alternating generations" section confusing, and would appreciate a clarification of what "alternating generations" and "(0, ±2, ±4, etc.)" mean. HLHJ ( talk) 17:44, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
I happened to notice that the image here gives what I think is somewhat inaccurate information about Omaha cross-cousin terminology. (At least, it doesn't agree with my old anthropology textbook.) I believe that the father's sister's children are called "son" and "daughter" if Ego is female and "niece" and "nephew" if Ego is male. (This preserves reciprocity of terms.) If true, this would also apply to the Crow system. I'm no expert, so I may be wrong; it's also possible that the image was intentionally simplified and the Omaha page is more detailed. However, this image and variations on it are at the tops of Google search pages because of Wikipedia, so someone please look into this! -- 148.85.243.72 ( talk) 19:41, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Do Kazakhs have sudanese system? Kaiyr ( talk) 18:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
This
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JIAFU.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:49, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I removed the section on English kinship terminology for three reasons.
While I agree with the removal of this information from this page, I cannot agree with your reasons for it.
I changed the wording "Western society" to "English speaking societies". It's clearly not an ideal wording either since there other societies sharing the same character, but it seems more reasonable to write something inaccurate than something truly false and ignorant. Another solution could be to emphasize even more that it's Morgan's views and words, if that is the case. This could be said e.g. with a title: Morgan's thoughts. The words "Western society" should not be used when meaning an English speaking society and maybe a couple of other societies having a similar logic in the language. The so called Western countries are NOT culturally uniform in the matter and therefore also languages differ in the case. -Western European Finnish speaker- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.157.74.216 ( talk) 14:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I also just removed a good deal of information on marriage and the family. These topics are different from kinship terminology and already have their own articles. I see no point in duplicating material in ther articles on related - but different - topics here. Let's just have links, and work on each article separately. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I like to get all details. I wil donate for the xtra Kb of storage Nasz 09:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
There needs to be a section on English kinship terminology, because the lack of one leaves a gaping hole in the article, since it discusses other kinship terminology in English and using English terms. And people looking for information English kinship terminology will be directed here, though they may find some information in the Cousin article. SteveH ( talk) 03:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
I removed this from the article ...
...because this is not one of the six systems laid out by Morgan. "Crow" kinship does not refer to the kindship of the Crow but to a system found widely around the world in different specific forms. This article is not the place to go into detail on every language. Besides, the above seems to violate NOR and NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
A number of terms redirect to this page but are not discussed here. For example, I came here via "Avunculocal" which is not mentioned at all in this article. Should the redirects be made into their own articles, or can someone flesh out the information here? 72.196.104.129 22:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I came here via "Consanguine" but there was no reference in the article either. 220.255.41.232 ( talk) 13:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Same with "neolocal" which redirects here even though it actually has its own article, neolocal residence. Absolutely senseless. Kbog ( talk) 22:53, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
From Eskimo kinship: "Morgan's system of classification is considered obsolete in current mainstream anthropology." What then is the modern view? 149.159.112.89 22:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The definitions are a little unclear; as seen in common mid-20th-century use, the terms were really most clearly defined on the sibling-cousin generation:
The Dravidian notions of kinship are built into the language.It is difficult to understand this kinship without a knowledge of the actual terms employed.
amma, appa - mother, father
akka, anna - elder sister, elder brother
thangai, thambi - younger sister, younger brother
pattan, patti - grandpa, grandma
periyamma - mother's elder sister, or father's elder brother's wife
periyappa - father's elder brother, or mother's elder sister's nusband
chiththappa - father's younger brother, or mother's younger sister's husband
chiththi - mother's younger sister, or father's younger brother's wife
[Note: Children of periappa /periamma, and chiththi /chiththappa are NOT cousins but brothers and sisters "of the first remove ('onnu vittadu')." Marriage between them is strictly forbidden and considered incestuous. Only "cross" cousins are considered cousins.]
mama - mother's brother, or father's sister's husband
aththai - father's sister, or mother's brother's wife
aththan - son of aththai and mama, also general term for husband
[Note: The children of one's father's sisters (aththai) and mother's brothers (mama) (or "cross" cousins) are considered potential mates or "muraippasangal." "Murai" is the right to claim to a cross cousin. Marriage between such cousins is the norm. Such cousins are often "meant" for one another from birth.]
marumagan - for a man, his sister's son (as his brother's son is his son);for a woman, her brother's son (her sister's son being her son);also, general term for son-in-law
marumagal - for a man, his sister's daughter (as his brother's daughter is his daughter);for a woman, her brother's daughter (her sister's daughter being her daughter);also, general term for daughter-in-law
Some Tamil communities also practise uncle-niece marriages where the maternal uncle (mother's younger brother) may marry his niece (his elder sister's daughter). Hence, the term "muraimaman" for one's mother's younger brother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.84 ( talk) 06:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
If the so called Dravidian kinship is indeed so distinct to be recognized as the seventh type, why there is not a colourful scheme of it, together with schemes made for the six Morgan's kinships? Which is more, there is not a distinct Wikipedia article on Dravidian kinship. Ass for now, all that one can learn from Wikipedia is that it is based on an obscure modulo-2 rule (obscure, because neither illustrated with a scheme nor explained with the help of contrasting it with other kinship terminologies).
Information on Dravidian kinship is scattered and hard to find for a non-specialist. Which is more, there are articles, books etc., which do not even mention such a kinship type, treating the Tamil system as an example of the Iroquois terminology.
So, the question seems to be very simple: if Iroquois and Dravidian kinship systems are really so distinct, why not to point the difference in a clear way?
From what I have managed to find so far, I can suppose that the two systems are basically the same, contrary to what some persons say. There is no differences between Dravidian and Iroquois as long as we limit ourselves to siblings and first cousins. The difference seems to be of really less importance, and manifests itself only when analysing second cousins (so, at the level not used while examining all the other kinship systems). In other words, if we followed the criteria for the six Morgan's systems, there would not be a distinct Dravidian kinship at all (indeed, many sources on kinship systems do not mention any seventh type at all as it is mathematically impossible). It would be at most a sub-type of the Iroquois kinship.
If I am wrong, please correct me, and place a good scheme that would show the differences between Dravidian and all the other types of kinship. And in any case, add more information on Dravidian kinship if you can!
31.11.242.188 ( talk) 13:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
Nevertheless, please add a colourful scheme to show the differences between Iroquois and Dravidian. Or stop terming Dravidian the seventh system, and make it a subtype of Iroquois. A scheme is still needed in this case, though. 178.235.146.66 ( talk) 09:12, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Maybe this might help: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Section-Logic-and-Cross-Parallel-Terminology-in-Canonical-Dravidian-Adapted-from-Tjon-Sie_fig1_227855133 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.133.94.176 ( talk) 19:42, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kinship terminology. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The six types of kinship terminology may be prevalent but they are not the only ones. There also exist (existed?) mixed terminologies, and one of them was the one formerly used in Polish (with many traces preserved even now among some Poles). Here is the list of the main terms that are used as criteria of Morgan’s typology:
F – ojciec (formerly: ociec),
M – matka (formerly: mać),
FB – stryj,
MB – wuj,
FZ = MZ – ciotka (formerly: ciota),
B = FBS = FZS = MBS = MZS – brat,
Z = FBD = FZD = MBD = MZD – siostra.
FB and MB were (and sometimes still are) named with different terms like in Sudanese terminology - but one term for FZ and MZ (different than just “mother”) was (and still is) a characteristic feature of Eskimo terminology. Modern Polish is clearly Eskimo in this respect: wujek means both FB and MB (as well as FZH and MZH, exactly like “uncle” in English).
On the other hand, one term for brothers and cousins was exactly like in Hawaiian system! The term “cousin” (Modern Polish: kuzyn (male), kuzynka (female)) was unknown, and in a case of necessity brat rodzony (B), brat stryjeczny (FBS), brat wujeczny (MBS), brat cioteczny (FZS or MZS) etc., were (and sometimes still are) in use - but such two-words terms were (are) no way obligatory. Some time ago kuzyn, kuzynka were already known but they were only used for more distant relatives (cousins), not for children of uncles and aunts (and such a custom is still alive in some regions of the country). Modern literary Polish is Eskimo in this respect too: kuzyn (male cousin) and kuzynka (female cousin) are in common usage for all cousins (not removed, though).
So, what type was the Old Polish terminology kinship? Sudanese (FB stryj different than MB wuj), Eskimo (M matka different than “aunt” — but both FZ and MZ ciotka) or Hawaiian (all first cousins treated exactly as siblings)? Obviously none of them.
Other Old Polish kinship terms for curious ones: S – syn, D – córa, H – mąż (małżonek), W – żona, HB – dziewierz, WB – szurzy, HZ – zełwa, WZ – świeść, HBW – jątrew, WZH – paszenog, ZH – swak, BW – bratowa, BS – synowiec (for a man, i.e. uncle) or brataniec (for a woman, i.e. aunt), BD – synowica (for uncle) or bratanica (for aunt), ZS – siostrzeniec, ZD – siostrzenica, FF = MF – dziad, FM = MM – baba, SS = DS – wnuk, SD = DD – wnuka, HF – świekier (or: świekr), HM – świekra (older: świekrew), WF – teść (older: cieść), WM – teścia (older: ćcia), DH – zięć, SW - snecha (there were also some others, less common and older, like nieć for PGCS and nieściora for PGCD, used in 16th century, now completely forgotten and known only to specialists). Now only part of these terms have survived, some of them sometimes heard, others are slightly modified, yet others out of any use. Note no common terms for “nephew” and “niece”, even today. 178.235.146.66 ( talk) 12:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
In introducing Morgan's classification the article reads:
For example, most kinship terminologies distinguish between sexes (the difference between a brother and a sister) and between generations (the difference between a child and a parent).
Ergo, the six-fold classification fails to account for kinship terminologies, such as those of Malay (and many other Malaysian and Indonesian societies), that in many contexts don't distinguish gender. How does anthropology describe or classify such a scheme?
I'll detail one example that I know quite well. In Malay, regardless of gender, one calls (i.e. describes and addresses):
(However, although one describes one's first cousin (all four types) as anak sepupu, one addresses him or her as a sibling - see below).
Other principles are dominant. For example, as in the Filipino terminology, relative age is important - in Malay, one distinguishes older sibling (kakak) from younger sibling (adik). Also, even strangers are classificatory kin: to address a much older male in Malay, one addresses him as pak cik (for a female, mak cik) which effectively calls him "uncle" (and her "aunt"). Gender sometimes figures in kin terms, but mostly attributively e.g. anak lelaki is only used to describe (but not to address) one's son, when the distinction is relevant. The only obligatory recognition of gender is in terms for mother, father, aunt, uncle; and for some speakers (but not all), grandfather (datuk) is distinct from grandmother (nenek).
So which of Morgan's six kinship terminologies does this fall under - if any? yoyo ( talk) 15:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
The article mentions self-reciprocal terms (two relatives calling one another "-ch’iné"), but other reciprocal terms (e.g. grandfather-granddaughter) are not mentioned. I have read that it is a general rule that kinship terms are reciprocal except for gender (i.e. anyone who calls a person "grandfather" is their grandson or granddaughter). If this is the case, could it be mentioned, please? I found the existing "Identification of alternating generations" section confusing, and would appreciate a clarification of what "alternating generations" and "(0, ±2, ±4, etc.)" mean. HLHJ ( talk) 17:44, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
I happened to notice that the image here gives what I think is somewhat inaccurate information about Omaha cross-cousin terminology. (At least, it doesn't agree with my old anthropology textbook.) I believe that the father's sister's children are called "son" and "daughter" if Ego is female and "niece" and "nephew" if Ego is male. (This preserves reciprocity of terms.) If true, this would also apply to the Crow system. I'm no expert, so I may be wrong; it's also possible that the image was intentionally simplified and the Omaha page is more detailed. However, this image and variations on it are at the tops of Google search pages because of Wikipedia, so someone please look into this! -- 148.85.243.72 ( talk) 19:41, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Do Kazakhs have sudanese system? Kaiyr ( talk) 18:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)