![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 14 April 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This is just a title used by the Savoyards after they were assigned the Kingdom of Sicily in 1713. They kept it up until 1723, even after they got a raw deal in 1720 that forced them to exchange this kingdom for the Kingdom of Sardinia. That is all. The information on this period in Sicilian history can be at that article. The history of the Savoyards in this period can be at House of Savoy, or perhaps we need a Savoy State (I believe that Christopher Storr's term) article to describe the history of the Savoyards' possessions from the late Middle Ages down to 1861/1946. Srnec ( talk) 21:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
The Kingdom of Sicily founded by Roger II in 1130 was transferred, as spoils of war, to the Duke of Savoy, who thus became King of Sicily (and all the other titles associated with it, including titles claiming the kingship of Jerusalem and Cyprus, kingdoms which hadn't existed for centuries). The kingdom of Sicily never included Savoy. Or any of Amadeus's other holdings, like the Piedmont or Nice. That's why Amadeus continued as Duke of Savoy (and Prince of Piedmont, etc.) until his death, but Sicily was taken away from him in 1720 (although he refused to recognise it until 1723, even though he had been compensated with the Kingdom of Sardinia, which his descendants managed to augment into the Kingdom of Italy by 1861). Srnec ( talk) 23:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The following quotations are from Christopher Storrs, War, diplomacy and the rise of Savoy, 1690–1720 (Cambridge University Press, 1999), with page numbers in parentheses:
One final point needs clarification, by way of introduction: the proper designation of the Savoyard state. This causes many problems to those unfamiliar with the state, who seek to identify it with a variety of labels which it is felt reflect power realities. Thus, it is often called Piedmont-Savoy to indicate the fact that, although Victor Amadeus was duke of Savoy, the most important part of his territories (in terms of extent, population and revenues yielded) was the principality of Piedmont. These efforts to give the Savoyard state an adequate name reflect the degree to which this typically composite early modern state fitted (and continued to fit after 1713, with the added complication of the acquisition of the Kingdom of Sicily and later Sardinia) ill into our 'modern' notions of statehood. For the most part, it will be referred to in this book as the Savoyard state, unless otherwise appropriate. (19)
. . .the question of papal recognistion of Victor Amadeus as king of Sicily, and later of Sardinia [was]. . . not resolved until the Concordats of 1727 and 1741. . . (91)
But Victor Amadeus himself scored one of the greatest successes, with his acquisition of Sicily (1713), which was at least as important for the royal dignity the island kingdom brought with it as for the additional territory and resources it represented. (155)
. . .Victor Amadeus' authority—or sovereignty—in Sardinia was limited by the terms of its cession (as had been the case with Sicily). [fn.: Following Charles Emmanuel III's issuing (1770) of new Constitutions, the Sardinian feudal barons claimed these breached the terms of the island realm's cession in 1720, and appealed to the King of Spain, Charles III, who according to the act of cession would inherit Sardinia in the event of the extinction of the House of Savoy, as guarantor of the island's 'constitution'.] (170)
Victor Amadeus' arrival in his new kingdom, Sicily, in 1713 was also the occasion for a Te Deum mass. . . (217)
I think they explain it sufficiently. Srnec ( talk) 19:06, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
"Gentlemen, you can’t fight here, this is the War Room!"
Srnec: I have some sympathy with your point, but you took it to AfD and it wasn’t supported. Nor was the notion to merge it anywhere. So taking it on yourself to blank and redirect the page is a bit cheeky. If you have grounds to challenge it, then do, but for now the page should stay. Anything else is an
ANI matter.
JohnnyBeeGood: The page, I have to say, is a bit of a mess. It purports to describe a title that lasted 7 (or 10) years, yet the history section starts with "Through centuries…" And there’s a lot of
peacockry in it. It could do with a fairly drastic re-writing.
I like john.k’s point (
above) that for three years the kingdom consisted of neither Sicily, nor Jerusalem, nor Cyprus; I think it’s worth having an article at this title just to say that. But I also think it’s worth having a (brief!) article explaining the transition from the Duchy of Savoy to the Kingdom of Sardinia.
Over to you...
Swanny18 (
talk)
19:26, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I left a little advice for Srnec. All people understood that you don't care at all Sicilian history, and that you are here simply to support your strange theories about Sardinia. However, a basic point must be underlined: Sardinian and Sicilian history are different. There was, in history, an effective K of Sicily, which was sometimes sovereign, and more times a colonian territory. However, even if sovereign or not, a Sicilian State existed. This is not the same thing for Sardinia, which was no more than a "paper realm". So, I suggest you not to waste your time about Sicily: even if your vandalisms about Sicily won (and I'm here to fight your vandalic attitude), this fact would not help you at all about Sardinia.-- Jonny Bee Goo ( talk) 09:49, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
In 1713, when Victor Amadeus II obtained the title of King, the countries under his rule were not united in a single state. The Kingdom of Sicily, the Duchy of Savoy, the County of Nice, etc., continued to be different states. Moreover, there was not a "Kingdom of Sicily, Jerusalem and Cyprus"; but the title assumed by Amadeus II was "King of Sicily, Jerusalem and Cyprus".
The title now used for this article (Kingdom of Sicily under Savoy) is uncorrect: because the word Savoy indicates the geographical region and not the royal house. Correct alternatives are: the previous title (Kingdom of Sicily (1713–1720)), Kingdom of Sicily under the House of Savoy, Kingdom of Sicily under the Savoys. -- The White Lion ( talk) 21:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
As you write, the word "Savoy" can indicate more than just geography, it can also indicate a royal house, so it doesn't indicate exclusively only one concept: if we want to refer to a certain object, we have to use a title with no possibility of misunderstanding and, specially, conceptually correct: in this case the best choice is Kingdom of Sicily under the House of Savoy. As a note about the title with the dates, in it:wiki, a lot of articles about historical states contains the time range in the title.
Kotniski, if you search on Google books, you can find books in italian or in english that write about the Kingdom of Sicily "under Victor Amadeus II of Savoy" or "under the House of Savoy" or "under the piedemontese rule". -- The White Lion ( talk) 22:02, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, my proposal was just to achieve a better accurate description, but if there is no agreement to specify "...the House of Savoy", the best solution is "Kingdom of Sicily (1713-1720)". -- The White Lion ( talk) 22:24, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Dates? Agree. I think it is the best solution at present and I hope Srnec will agree. Imho, if you feel appropriate, we can move the page. -- The White Lion ( talk) 21:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 14 April 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This is just a title used by the Savoyards after they were assigned the Kingdom of Sicily in 1713. They kept it up until 1723, even after they got a raw deal in 1720 that forced them to exchange this kingdom for the Kingdom of Sardinia. That is all. The information on this period in Sicilian history can be at that article. The history of the Savoyards in this period can be at House of Savoy, or perhaps we need a Savoy State (I believe that Christopher Storr's term) article to describe the history of the Savoyards' possessions from the late Middle Ages down to 1861/1946. Srnec ( talk) 21:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
The Kingdom of Sicily founded by Roger II in 1130 was transferred, as spoils of war, to the Duke of Savoy, who thus became King of Sicily (and all the other titles associated with it, including titles claiming the kingship of Jerusalem and Cyprus, kingdoms which hadn't existed for centuries). The kingdom of Sicily never included Savoy. Or any of Amadeus's other holdings, like the Piedmont or Nice. That's why Amadeus continued as Duke of Savoy (and Prince of Piedmont, etc.) until his death, but Sicily was taken away from him in 1720 (although he refused to recognise it until 1723, even though he had been compensated with the Kingdom of Sardinia, which his descendants managed to augment into the Kingdom of Italy by 1861). Srnec ( talk) 23:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The following quotations are from Christopher Storrs, War, diplomacy and the rise of Savoy, 1690–1720 (Cambridge University Press, 1999), with page numbers in parentheses:
One final point needs clarification, by way of introduction: the proper designation of the Savoyard state. This causes many problems to those unfamiliar with the state, who seek to identify it with a variety of labels which it is felt reflect power realities. Thus, it is often called Piedmont-Savoy to indicate the fact that, although Victor Amadeus was duke of Savoy, the most important part of his territories (in terms of extent, population and revenues yielded) was the principality of Piedmont. These efforts to give the Savoyard state an adequate name reflect the degree to which this typically composite early modern state fitted (and continued to fit after 1713, with the added complication of the acquisition of the Kingdom of Sicily and later Sardinia) ill into our 'modern' notions of statehood. For the most part, it will be referred to in this book as the Savoyard state, unless otherwise appropriate. (19)
. . .the question of papal recognistion of Victor Amadeus as king of Sicily, and later of Sardinia [was]. . . not resolved until the Concordats of 1727 and 1741. . . (91)
But Victor Amadeus himself scored one of the greatest successes, with his acquisition of Sicily (1713), which was at least as important for the royal dignity the island kingdom brought with it as for the additional territory and resources it represented. (155)
. . .Victor Amadeus' authority—or sovereignty—in Sardinia was limited by the terms of its cession (as had been the case with Sicily). [fn.: Following Charles Emmanuel III's issuing (1770) of new Constitutions, the Sardinian feudal barons claimed these breached the terms of the island realm's cession in 1720, and appealed to the King of Spain, Charles III, who according to the act of cession would inherit Sardinia in the event of the extinction of the House of Savoy, as guarantor of the island's 'constitution'.] (170)
Victor Amadeus' arrival in his new kingdom, Sicily, in 1713 was also the occasion for a Te Deum mass. . . (217)
I think they explain it sufficiently. Srnec ( talk) 19:06, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
"Gentlemen, you can’t fight here, this is the War Room!"
Srnec: I have some sympathy with your point, but you took it to AfD and it wasn’t supported. Nor was the notion to merge it anywhere. So taking it on yourself to blank and redirect the page is a bit cheeky. If you have grounds to challenge it, then do, but for now the page should stay. Anything else is an
ANI matter.
JohnnyBeeGood: The page, I have to say, is a bit of a mess. It purports to describe a title that lasted 7 (or 10) years, yet the history section starts with "Through centuries…" And there’s a lot of
peacockry in it. It could do with a fairly drastic re-writing.
I like john.k’s point (
above) that for three years the kingdom consisted of neither Sicily, nor Jerusalem, nor Cyprus; I think it’s worth having an article at this title just to say that. But I also think it’s worth having a (brief!) article explaining the transition from the Duchy of Savoy to the Kingdom of Sardinia.
Over to you...
Swanny18 (
talk)
19:26, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I left a little advice for Srnec. All people understood that you don't care at all Sicilian history, and that you are here simply to support your strange theories about Sardinia. However, a basic point must be underlined: Sardinian and Sicilian history are different. There was, in history, an effective K of Sicily, which was sometimes sovereign, and more times a colonian territory. However, even if sovereign or not, a Sicilian State existed. This is not the same thing for Sardinia, which was no more than a "paper realm". So, I suggest you not to waste your time about Sicily: even if your vandalisms about Sicily won (and I'm here to fight your vandalic attitude), this fact would not help you at all about Sardinia.-- Jonny Bee Goo ( talk) 09:49, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
In 1713, when Victor Amadeus II obtained the title of King, the countries under his rule were not united in a single state. The Kingdom of Sicily, the Duchy of Savoy, the County of Nice, etc., continued to be different states. Moreover, there was not a "Kingdom of Sicily, Jerusalem and Cyprus"; but the title assumed by Amadeus II was "King of Sicily, Jerusalem and Cyprus".
The title now used for this article (Kingdom of Sicily under Savoy) is uncorrect: because the word Savoy indicates the geographical region and not the royal house. Correct alternatives are: the previous title (Kingdom of Sicily (1713–1720)), Kingdom of Sicily under the House of Savoy, Kingdom of Sicily under the Savoys. -- The White Lion ( talk) 21:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
As you write, the word "Savoy" can indicate more than just geography, it can also indicate a royal house, so it doesn't indicate exclusively only one concept: if we want to refer to a certain object, we have to use a title with no possibility of misunderstanding and, specially, conceptually correct: in this case the best choice is Kingdom of Sicily under the House of Savoy. As a note about the title with the dates, in it:wiki, a lot of articles about historical states contains the time range in the title.
Kotniski, if you search on Google books, you can find books in italian or in english that write about the Kingdom of Sicily "under Victor Amadeus II of Savoy" or "under the House of Savoy" or "under the piedemontese rule". -- The White Lion ( talk) 22:02, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, my proposal was just to achieve a better accurate description, but if there is no agreement to specify "...the House of Savoy", the best solution is "Kingdom of Sicily (1713-1720)". -- The White Lion ( talk) 22:24, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Dates? Agree. I think it is the best solution at present and I hope Srnec will agree. Imho, if you feel appropriate, we can move the page. -- The White Lion ( talk) 21:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)