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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:37, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Iskandar323 I see you put a flag on the biblical narrative section. I disagree with your reasoning since I believe a reader would understand the biblical narrative here precisely as if it were a novel. The page somewhat addresses the lack of archeological evidence (although perhaps without enough weight to voices of skeptics), and no secondary sources would exist to "prove" the biblical narrative besides commentary and literary analysis. Still, the biblical narrative remains notable and should be somewhat addressed on this page.
I consider it similar to the Gilgamesh: that page makes no claims that the stories in the epics happened, despite the fact that Gilgamesh may have been a real king in the city of Uruk.
Additionally, there are a few secondary sources in the section. So, I really don't think this particular flag is needed here.
That being said, can you elaborate on your concerns here so that I can make sure I understood them correctly? And, what can be done to address your concerns? too_much curiosity ( talk) 14:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
"According to the biblical account, the united monarchy was formed by a large popular expression in favour of introducing a king to rule over the decentralised Israelite confederacy."The Bible says not such thing. This is a highly interpretive reckoning of the fables. The section juggles between the literal and the interpretive throughout, later with
"Some modern archaeologists ..."This is perhaps the nature of the subject. The 'united monarchy' is a theory borne out of biblical interpretation, so it cannot really be just a plot summary, because there is no single story from the bible that is being discussed. It is a summation of stories from Samuel 1 and 2 and Kings 1, and we really need secondary sources to explain this. Iskandar323 ( talk) 14:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
There appears to be an ISO 3166 code in the infobox. I haven't found a way to remove it. I don't think they had ISO codes back then. Am I missing something or could/should this be removed from the infobox? Midwood123 ( talk) 09:51, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. In the support column were arguments that the proposed title is the WP:COMMONNAME here. However, the opposers argued that the proposed title is ambiguous and too vague. There were also several alternate proposals raised throughout the course of the RM, though there is no consensus which of them is preferred over the others, or whether any of the opposers support the alternate proposals. ( closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 ( talk) ★ 16:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) → United Monarchy – The subject of this page is a postulated political entity most prevalently referred to in scholarship as the "United Monarchy". This term's prevalence in scholarship is demonstrated in a search of "Kingdom of Israel" and "United Monarchy" together in Google Scholar - which sees "United Monarchy" almost invariably come out on top in the title. Even imagining that "United Monarchy" is not the most prevalent term for the subject, it would still be a naturally disambiguated title, which, per WP:NCDAB, is preferred over a parenthetically disambiguated one (which is unconcise by its nature, as rather effectively exemplified here). "United Kingdom of Israel" is also a frequent term in scholarship, but if we compare the general usage of the two terms, "United Monarchy" comes out clearly on top in Ngrams. Iskandar323 ( talk) 20:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 11:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 19:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ( talk) 00:24, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
"united monarchy"and the results I found were universally about the United Monarchy of ancient Israel. United Monarchy has redirected to this article, without any controversy, for fourteen years. Pageview stats show that people are not following the hatnote to personal union in large enough numbers to be represented, indicating that readers interested in the unification of monarchies are not being mistakenly funneled here. When taken together, the evidence makes it clear that the phrase "United Monarchy" alone refers WP:PRECISEly to this period of Israel's history. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 15:17, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. As seen in the prior move discussion just above, some people object to the current title but agreement still can't be reached on a new name. EdJohnston ( talk) 02:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) → United Kingdom of Israel – Following the rejection of the WP:COMMONNAME for this topic, i.e. United Monarchy, at the previous discussion, the next best option is the alternative name sometimes used for the topic - one that also dispenses with the ghastly parenthetical disambiguation, and which, while only a distant runner up to United Monarchy in terms of actual scholarly usage, is also preferable, as a form of natural disambiguation, over the parenthetical disambiguation, per WP:NCDAB. Examples of the scholarly usage can be found here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:02, 16 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 23:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
From recent edits, I see there's disagreement over the inclusion of Palestine in the "today" section of the infobox. This seems like a reasonable inclusion, since the point is to show what current jurisdictions have land that was once thought to be the Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy). Let me suggest discussing here rather than reverting etc. ProfGray ( talk) 11:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
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This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:37, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Iskandar323 I see you put a flag on the biblical narrative section. I disagree with your reasoning since I believe a reader would understand the biblical narrative here precisely as if it were a novel. The page somewhat addresses the lack of archeological evidence (although perhaps without enough weight to voices of skeptics), and no secondary sources would exist to "prove" the biblical narrative besides commentary and literary analysis. Still, the biblical narrative remains notable and should be somewhat addressed on this page.
I consider it similar to the Gilgamesh: that page makes no claims that the stories in the epics happened, despite the fact that Gilgamesh may have been a real king in the city of Uruk.
Additionally, there are a few secondary sources in the section. So, I really don't think this particular flag is needed here.
That being said, can you elaborate on your concerns here so that I can make sure I understood them correctly? And, what can be done to address your concerns? too_much curiosity ( talk) 14:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
"According to the biblical account, the united monarchy was formed by a large popular expression in favour of introducing a king to rule over the decentralised Israelite confederacy."The Bible says not such thing. This is a highly interpretive reckoning of the fables. The section juggles between the literal and the interpretive throughout, later with
"Some modern archaeologists ..."This is perhaps the nature of the subject. The 'united monarchy' is a theory borne out of biblical interpretation, so it cannot really be just a plot summary, because there is no single story from the bible that is being discussed. It is a summation of stories from Samuel 1 and 2 and Kings 1, and we really need secondary sources to explain this. Iskandar323 ( talk) 14:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
There appears to be an ISO 3166 code in the infobox. I haven't found a way to remove it. I don't think they had ISO codes back then. Am I missing something or could/should this be removed from the infobox? Midwood123 ( talk) 09:51, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. In the support column were arguments that the proposed title is the WP:COMMONNAME here. However, the opposers argued that the proposed title is ambiguous and too vague. There were also several alternate proposals raised throughout the course of the RM, though there is no consensus which of them is preferred over the others, or whether any of the opposers support the alternate proposals. ( closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 ( talk) ★ 16:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) → United Monarchy – The subject of this page is a postulated political entity most prevalently referred to in scholarship as the "United Monarchy". This term's prevalence in scholarship is demonstrated in a search of "Kingdom of Israel" and "United Monarchy" together in Google Scholar - which sees "United Monarchy" almost invariably come out on top in the title. Even imagining that "United Monarchy" is not the most prevalent term for the subject, it would still be a naturally disambiguated title, which, per WP:NCDAB, is preferred over a parenthetically disambiguated one (which is unconcise by its nature, as rather effectively exemplified here). "United Kingdom of Israel" is also a frequent term in scholarship, but if we compare the general usage of the two terms, "United Monarchy" comes out clearly on top in Ngrams. Iskandar323 ( talk) 20:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 11:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 19:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ( talk) 00:24, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
"united monarchy"and the results I found were universally about the United Monarchy of ancient Israel. United Monarchy has redirected to this article, without any controversy, for fourteen years. Pageview stats show that people are not following the hatnote to personal union in large enough numbers to be represented, indicating that readers interested in the unification of monarchies are not being mistakenly funneled here. When taken together, the evidence makes it clear that the phrase "United Monarchy" alone refers WP:PRECISEly to this period of Israel's history. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 15:17, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. As seen in the prior move discussion just above, some people object to the current title but agreement still can't be reached on a new name. EdJohnston ( talk) 02:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) → United Kingdom of Israel – Following the rejection of the WP:COMMONNAME for this topic, i.e. United Monarchy, at the previous discussion, the next best option is the alternative name sometimes used for the topic - one that also dispenses with the ghastly parenthetical disambiguation, and which, while only a distant runner up to United Monarchy in terms of actual scholarly usage, is also preferable, as a form of natural disambiguation, over the parenthetical disambiguation, per WP:NCDAB. Examples of the scholarly usage can be found here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:02, 16 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 23:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
From recent edits, I see there's disagreement over the inclusion of Palestine in the "today" section of the infobox. This seems like a reasonable inclusion, since the point is to show what current jurisdictions have land that was once thought to be the Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy). Let me suggest discussing here rather than reverting etc. ProfGray ( talk) 11:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC)