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As a crown isn't a "post" any more than it is an office, I would suggest changing that part to "the throne of Ireland was held by the reigning..." PML
Done, PML. BTW what do you think of the pic? My first pic on wiki, taken last night on my new digital camera. ÉÍREman 04:43 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
'Tis enough, 'twill serve. I imagine that it is a faithful rendering, muck and all, which makes it hard to make out detail from the wording and heraldic symbols. But the dexter supporting beast is quite obviously post 1707. (I was interested when I was first in the Master's Lodge in Trinity, Cambridge to note that the dexter supporting beast at the mantlepiece there was a griffin.) PML.
British monarchs dropped their "theoretical claim" to the French throne soon after the French Revolution and this was reflected heraldically when the coat of arms was modified after the union with Ireland was effected in 1801. That's why I snipped out the reference to France in the caption (you'll note the absence of Fleur-de-lis in the picture.)
http://hometown.aol.com/cusam2/myhomepage/index.html Argues that Act Union 1801 was ultra Vires King George III as King Henry IX of Ireland was alive till 1807.
Table is broken, someone with more knowledge fix it. Behemoth01 20:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
This is fine, but it should really point out that there were several major individual Irish kingdoms that lasted into the early years of the 1600's. Fergananim 17:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Surely the same coat of arms as appears on the Republic of Ireland page can be used? Andrew Yong 20:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to revert the change to the arms (the placing of the crown above the harp). Here's my sources:
"King James not only used the harp crowned as the device of Ireland, but quartered the harp in this royal achievement for the arms of that kingdom, in the third quarter of the royal achievement upon his Great Seal, as it has continued ever since. The blazon was azure, a harp or string argent, as appears by the great embroidered banner, and at the funeral of Queen Anne, King James' queen, AD 1618, and likewise by the great banner and banner of Ireland at the funeral of King James. The difference between the arms and device of Ireland appears to be on the crown only, which is added to the harp when used as a device.
At the funeral of King James was likewise carried the standard of the crest of Ireland, a buck proper (argent in the draught) issuing from a tower tripple towered or, which is the only instance of this crest that I have met, and therefore was probably devised and assinged for the crest of Ireland upon occasion of this funeral, but with what propriety I do not understand." - Questions and Answers, Notes and Queries, 1855, p. 350
"The insignia of Ireland have variously been given by early writers. In the reign of Edward IV, a commission appointed to enquire what were the arms of Ireland found them to be three crowns in pale. It has been supposed that these crowns were abandoned at the Reformation, from an idea that they might denote the feudal sovereignty of the pope, whose vassal the king of England was, as lord of Ireland. However, in a manuscript in the Heralds' College of the time of Henry VII, the arms of Ireland are blazoned azure, a harp or, stringed argent; and when they were for the first time placed on the royal shield on the accession of James I. they were thus delineated: the crest is on a wreath or and azure, a tower (sometime triple-towered) or, from the port, a hart springing argent. Another crest is a harp or. The national flag of Ireland exhibits the harp in a field vert. The royal badge of Ireland, as settled by sign-manual in 1801 is a harp, or, stringed argent, and a trefoil vert, both ensigned with the imperial crown." - Chambers's encyclopædia: a dictionary of universal knowledge, Page 627, 1868
The use of the crown is this a badge, or a device, or an (unofficial) crest. It is not part of the arms.
- Definitions from James Parker, A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry, 1894
The upside of this though is that we have a source to back up the arrangement of the crowns on the LOI article ("In the reign of Edward IV, a commission appointed to enquire what were the arms of Ireland found them to be three crowns in pale.") There is also a source, ableit 66 years into the UKGBI as to the flag of Ireland ("The national flag of Ireland exhibits the harp in a field vert.") --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 20:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
In researching the flag/arms of the Lordship of Ireland when I came across a curious line in ATQ Stewarts The Shape of Irish History. On Henry VIII's changing the arms of Ireland when moving from Lordship to Kingdom he wrote: "Ireland was given a new green flag and the harp as its national symbol."
First off, I must say that I had always fallen in to the trap of thinking that the Patricks's Saltire was the flag of Ireland during the Kingdom of Ireland. On a little bit of research, I can see now that this is a non-runner, and I suggest it should be taken down. The Saltire was coined only 20 years before the dissolution of the Kingdom and was never a flag of that kingdom but the colours of the Order of St. Patrick, an order of knights created in honor of Poynings laws being eased. From what I can see, that flag was in no way (ever) a flag of the Kingdom of Ireland, and in fact 19th century official British sources deny that Ireland ever had a flag before the Union flag.
But what was this "green flag" that Stewart is referring to? The first thing that struck me was if this was the same Green Flag we all know? i.e. the flag most associated with Irish rebellion during the Kingdom and up to and including 1798? I must say, at the moment, I'm leaning towards "yes, it was."
The green flag was certainly widely popular. It was used as a naval jack and is listed for Ireland in books of flags at least from 1685. However, following the Act of Union it drops out - as I said, with sources denying that it ever had any legitimacy, and saying instead that Ireland never had a flag before the Union Flag, not even the Saltire. Was this because it had become so closely associated with Irish nationalism?
There is another curious hint: the standard of the Lordship, as I have discovered, was the Three Crowns (identical to the flag of Munster). One source says in declaring himself King of Ireland "the three crowns were replaced with the harp by Henry VIII, in case they were mistaken for the Papal tiara." Did Henry VII swap the "flag of Munster" for the "flag of Leinster" (with the convenience that it featured the harp, a symbol listed as the arms of the Kings of Ireland at least since 1280)?
There is also a switch in the "colours of Ireland." Prior to the Norman invasion, there appears to be no colours for Ireland. During the priod of the Lordship, Gaelic leaders appear to have adopted blue as the colour of Ireland. However, during the Kingdom, green became the colour. Could this colour change have been inspired by the "green flag"?
What is the opinion of others? Both with regard to the "green flag" and also with regard to the Saltire being purported as the flag of the Kingdom? I am of the opinion, at the moment at least, that we should change the Saltire to the Green Flag (we know at least that it was very popular, official or not). The Saltire is a non-runner, from what I can see.
-- sony-youth talk 11:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have opened a discussion on a reorganisation of the series of articles dealing with Irish history at Talk:History of Ireland#RFC: Irish history series. --RA ( talk) 23:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Many of the dates shown, especially the date ranges in the box at top right, seem incorrect, as they are of the format '1659-1801' when, with some possible exceptions, they probably should mostly be of the format '1659-1800', as the Union came into effect on the first day of 1801. Because of possible exceptions unknown to me, I hesitate to correct this myself, but some editor more expert than me might perhaps correct the erroneous 1801s, and include some note explaining why any given exception has been retained. Tlhslobus ( talk) 09:27, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
In the absence of any response on this, I've decided to make the article consistent by changing all 1801s to 1800 except where there's a clear reason not to do so, and to explain in the introduction that it ceased to exist on the last day of 1800. If anybody then knows of a good reason for keeping some particular 1801, they are free to change it thmselves. Tlhslobus ( talk) 00:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The opening paragraph gives only Ríoghacht Éireann, whereas Note 2 gives both Ríoghacht Éireann and Ríocht Éireann in different places. And, though I can't be sure, I would expect that Ríoghacht na hÉireann and/or Ríocht na hÉireann may also get used, possibly erroneously, either at the time or in more recent writing, if only because Ríoghacht/Ríocht na hÉireann is the literal word-for-word translation of 'Kingdom of Ireland', just as Poblacht na hÉireann is used to translate 'Republic of Ireland' (plus I'm also thinking of 'ríocht na greine' - kingdom of the sun - in Monsignor Padraig de Brun's poem Valporaiso). As this kind of issue must have frequently arisen before, there may already be some Wikipedia policy on the matter of which I'm unaware. So I'd prefer to leave any fix to some editor more expert than me. Tlhslobus ( talk) 09:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
"Féach ár bpain le sé chéad bliain aige Gaill in éigean, gan rí dár rialadh de Ghaeil, mo chian, i ríoghacht Éireann" This is in the Vincent Morley reference (currently refernce 3), but an accurate translation needs to be added, as this is English Wikipedia. I also suspect there are misspellings, such as 'bpian' (or maybe bpían), meaning 'pain', rather than 'bpain'. A crude translation probably runs something like 'Look at our pain with 600 years of foreigners in control, without a king from our Gaelic rulers, my dear, in the Kingdom of Ireland', but I'd appreciate if somebody could check and correct it, please, as well as checking for possible Gaelic misspellings, as already mentioned. Tlhslobus ( talk) 17:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, I learn something every day. Is IIRC from Wikipedia jargon, or from texting, or from somewhere else? I guess I'll just change it anyway, and maybe I'll have a look through the rules later. Anyway I've put in the link to Google, corrected the spelling, and added the translation, as per the source. But I'm not too happy with it, as I don't see the word 'violent' there ('aige' normally means 'with him', and 'éigean' is 'compulsion' and 'necessity' in irishionary.com, not 'violence', so 'Gaill in éigean' sounds more like 'oppressive foreigners'), plus I'm a bit surprised to learn that my nephew Cian's name means 'grief' (I haven't found a translation of 'Cian' on irishionary.com, Google, or Wikipedia). But unless you've got any better ideas I reckon it'll just have to do, at least for now. Tlhslobus ( talk) 13:13, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi Laurel Lodged. Personally, I think that if a state existed within the periods of existence of this state, it should not be listed as a successor or predecessor. The 'life_span' section shows clearly that the state was not in existence during this period. Placing these in the successors and predecessors suggests that these came before 1542 and after 1800. This causes unnecessary confusion, and doesn't actually inform the reader of anything, since it's already made clear in the 'life_span' section. Regards, Rob ( talk) 13:52, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
That the Commonwealth was short-lived might indicate that it was a failure as a state (i.e. not a success); this has nothing to do with it being a successor state (i.e. a state that followed or replaced a state). The etymology of the two is related but the meanings distinct. What is important is that it was a state and was internationally recognised as such. The "interregnum" is revisionist humbug. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 20:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
The "today" field in the infobox should be left blank. The island of Ireland is not part of the Republic of Ireland, neither is it part of the United Kingdom (nor of Northern Ireland). There is no way to label that field that will not confuse the reader more than it informs. Scolaire ( talk) 19:36, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
The Republic of Ireland covers five sixths of the territory of the Kingdom of Ireland. To say that the latter is "part of" the former is to say that the part is greater than the whole.That is a rhetorical fallacy because that is not what is being said. What is being said territory of the Kingdom of Ireland is today part of the Republic of Ireland AND the United Kingdom. You neglected to mention the United Kingdom in your mathematics. -- Tóraí ( talk) 09:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
WheelerRob has changed the successor state from United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to United Kingdom, with the edit summary "Changed successor link from article about a period, to article about the sovereign state." But this article is only about a period too, as is Lordship of Ireland and Gaelic Ireland. The UKGBI article, like this one, has a "former country" infobox, and its life-span is given as 1801-1922. For consistency this "former country", and not the modern state, should be used as successor. Scolaire ( talk) 14:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
History of the United Kingdom seems to be the redundant one and should be the one deleted. Content should be moved to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the former state where it belongs. Dimadick ( talk) 18:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Rob, can you give us an indication of what other "British history articles" you are currently in discussion about, or is it just that you are disputing the use of UKGBI in other infoboxes? It's not that I want to stalk you, but if there are going to be significant changes in the way that British history is written, it would be useful for us to keep track of them. Scolaire ( talk) 14:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland has been notified of recent flag changes. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 14:31, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
The template documentation states "If an entity simply became a subdivision of another country (state, province, etc.), then link to that subdivision". Ireland retained a legal personality and was an administrative subdivision of the UK. History of Ireland (1801–1923) refers to the period when Ireland was a part of the UK. However constitutionally, Ireland and Great Britain formed a "new" state. The reality is Great Britain annexed Ireland, and renamed the country to reflect its territorial extent. So what is a more appropriate successor entity? The United Kingdom ( United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland) or the subdivision ( History of Ireland (1801–1923))? Rob984 ( talk) 13:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
The claim that Ireland was a 'Constitutional Monarchy' from 1542 until 1800 is sufficiently strange to require a citation from Reliable sources. I note that it we describe it as a client state of the Kingdom of England up to 1707, and the Kingdom of England is currently described (without supporting citations) as a unitary parliamentary monarchy, but NOT as a constitutional monarchy, a term that we currently first use (again without citation) for the Kingdom of Great Britain, from 1707. If reliable sources cannot be found fairly soon for Ireland being a Constitutional Monarchy throughout the relevant period, I suggest we use a similar formula to that for England - parliamentary Monarchy, since it clearly was a Monarchy, and clearly had a parliament, throughout the period in question. Tlhslobus ( talk) 11:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I see in the meantime somebody has already changed it to Monarchy, and I've thanked that editor for the change. On the whole that's probably better than 'parliamentary monarchy' given that the Kingdom of England Article links 'parliamentary' to ' Parliamentary system' which opens by telling us that a Parliamentary system is a democratic system - there was nothing like what we call democracy in the Kingdom of England at the time (and even less in the Kingdom of Ireland), even if that hasn't stopped some Americans from claiming that Britain has been a democracy for centuries. Maybe I need to have a think about putting a few CNs on the English and British articles. Tlhslobus ( talk) 11:52, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
This state is "on Ireland" in the same way that "Killarney is on Ireland". Just like you might say "Bob was on Rathlin Island last week". Why "on" rather than "in"? Because as far as I know, the hundreds of islands surrounding Ireland were also, at various times, under the control of the kingdom. "in Ireland" is quite implicit in excluding other islands, whereas "on Ireland" is certainly less so, if at all. Unless you mean "Ireland" in the sense of the all-Ireland country of Ireland—which would be contentious. Would you feel happier with "on the island of Ireland"? Because "in the island of Ireland" is wrong, and "in Ireland" either implies either in the island of Ireland, or some wider use of the term "Ireland" that is contentious among the British in the North. Rob984 ( talk) 12:34, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Also, this isn't a problem in any other case because the Kingdom of Ireland is definitely a place, often referred as "Ireland". But this is referring to the location of that place, in the geographic sense. In that sense we are talking about islands. Rob984 ( talk) 12:38, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Rob984, it may be confusing but the Kingdom of Ireland meant just that in terms of international law. There was a KofI recognised by the English system from 1542, and therefore by those states that recognised Henry VIII; from 1555 the Papacy and Catholic states recognised it. There were of course occasional long rebellions, and large areas out of control of Dublin for years, but these rebellions were political, in the sense that they were about the future control of the same Kingdom of Ireland. Until 1798 of course. Hope this helps. 78.18.201.154 ( talk) 17:58, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I've requested semi=protection for this page and Lordship of ireland as I've got sick and tired of the ip keeping on doing exactly the same edit and it keeping on being reverted. It's been happening since last June. Dmcq ( talk) 18:55, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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As I have brought up on Talk: Puppet state about clients and puppets, shouldn't the Kingdom of Ireland be called a "puppet state" and not a "client state" as a client state is a more general term than a puppet state? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Conner Neu ( talk) 00:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conner Neu ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
I should start this by pointing to the fact that I am a dual national (UK / Ireland) coming at this from a legal background, have a background in the analysis of constitutional law and nationality law in various jurisdictions with links to the UK.
This is a quite interesting article from a constitutional background. It's also highly political, and as such, I think that getting some agreement to my points before wading in with corrections, no matter how small, might be due.
The Crown of Ireland Act 1542 Technically *did not* create a *personal union* between the King of Ireland and the King of England as King, It in fact creates a Crown in Ireland which is independent - but was "united and knit to the imperial crown of England" to quote the act. That is why Ireland had its own Peerage, independent of the Peerage of the Crown in England. The Crown of Ireland came into existence and was tied as integrally joined to the Imperial Crown of England and part thereof (the word knit) by the act. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aip/Hen8/33/1/section/I.
The Act of Union (Ireland) 1800 This act ceased the independent existence of the Crown of Ireland, and brought it as one into the Imperial Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aip/Geo3/40/38
-- Now when we look further on, the article goes on to say:
In 1937, the link to the British Crown was repealed, but the monarch was the de jure king in the new State until 1949. In the Republic of Ireland the 1542 Act was repealed in 1962.[5]
This jumps straight to the period after the 1922 Irish Free State and is referring to the status of Eire (the republic in all but name) between 1937 to 1949, which once again is simply confusing, and has nothing to do with the Kingdom of Ireland which certainly ceased to exist in 1800 so why are we talking about "link to the British Crown" in 1937.
And if we're going to be really specific the 1922 Irish Free State created a Dominion Crown in any case (clearly recognised by the change in title in 1927 - "By the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India", where prior to 1927 it had been "By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ..." in line with the union between the uk and ireland)
Elvisbrandenburgkremmen (
talk) 18:41, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
1937, the link to the British Crown was repealed, but the monarch was the de jure king in the new State until 1949. In the Republic of Ireland the 1542 Act was repealed in 1962.[5]
So, so much is missing! Also Quote: ‘The legacy of the Kingdom of Ireland remains a bone of contention in Irish-British relations to this day because of the constant ethnic conflict between the native Irish inhabitants and primarily the new Anglo-Irish settlers across the island.’ Frenchmalawi ( talk) 05:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
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As a crown isn't a "post" any more than it is an office, I would suggest changing that part to "the throne of Ireland was held by the reigning..." PML
Done, PML. BTW what do you think of the pic? My first pic on wiki, taken last night on my new digital camera. ÉÍREman 04:43 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
'Tis enough, 'twill serve. I imagine that it is a faithful rendering, muck and all, which makes it hard to make out detail from the wording and heraldic symbols. But the dexter supporting beast is quite obviously post 1707. (I was interested when I was first in the Master's Lodge in Trinity, Cambridge to note that the dexter supporting beast at the mantlepiece there was a griffin.) PML.
British monarchs dropped their "theoretical claim" to the French throne soon after the French Revolution and this was reflected heraldically when the coat of arms was modified after the union with Ireland was effected in 1801. That's why I snipped out the reference to France in the caption (you'll note the absence of Fleur-de-lis in the picture.)
http://hometown.aol.com/cusam2/myhomepage/index.html Argues that Act Union 1801 was ultra Vires King George III as King Henry IX of Ireland was alive till 1807.
Table is broken, someone with more knowledge fix it. Behemoth01 20:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
This is fine, but it should really point out that there were several major individual Irish kingdoms that lasted into the early years of the 1600's. Fergananim 17:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Surely the same coat of arms as appears on the Republic of Ireland page can be used? Andrew Yong 20:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to revert the change to the arms (the placing of the crown above the harp). Here's my sources:
"King James not only used the harp crowned as the device of Ireland, but quartered the harp in this royal achievement for the arms of that kingdom, in the third quarter of the royal achievement upon his Great Seal, as it has continued ever since. The blazon was azure, a harp or string argent, as appears by the great embroidered banner, and at the funeral of Queen Anne, King James' queen, AD 1618, and likewise by the great banner and banner of Ireland at the funeral of King James. The difference between the arms and device of Ireland appears to be on the crown only, which is added to the harp when used as a device.
At the funeral of King James was likewise carried the standard of the crest of Ireland, a buck proper (argent in the draught) issuing from a tower tripple towered or, which is the only instance of this crest that I have met, and therefore was probably devised and assinged for the crest of Ireland upon occasion of this funeral, but with what propriety I do not understand." - Questions and Answers, Notes and Queries, 1855, p. 350
"The insignia of Ireland have variously been given by early writers. In the reign of Edward IV, a commission appointed to enquire what were the arms of Ireland found them to be three crowns in pale. It has been supposed that these crowns were abandoned at the Reformation, from an idea that they might denote the feudal sovereignty of the pope, whose vassal the king of England was, as lord of Ireland. However, in a manuscript in the Heralds' College of the time of Henry VII, the arms of Ireland are blazoned azure, a harp or, stringed argent; and when they were for the first time placed on the royal shield on the accession of James I. they were thus delineated: the crest is on a wreath or and azure, a tower (sometime triple-towered) or, from the port, a hart springing argent. Another crest is a harp or. The national flag of Ireland exhibits the harp in a field vert. The royal badge of Ireland, as settled by sign-manual in 1801 is a harp, or, stringed argent, and a trefoil vert, both ensigned with the imperial crown." - Chambers's encyclopædia: a dictionary of universal knowledge, Page 627, 1868
The use of the crown is this a badge, or a device, or an (unofficial) crest. It is not part of the arms.
- Definitions from James Parker, A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry, 1894
The upside of this though is that we have a source to back up the arrangement of the crowns on the LOI article ("In the reign of Edward IV, a commission appointed to enquire what were the arms of Ireland found them to be three crowns in pale.") There is also a source, ableit 66 years into the UKGBI as to the flag of Ireland ("The national flag of Ireland exhibits the harp in a field vert.") --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 20:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
In researching the flag/arms of the Lordship of Ireland when I came across a curious line in ATQ Stewarts The Shape of Irish History. On Henry VIII's changing the arms of Ireland when moving from Lordship to Kingdom he wrote: "Ireland was given a new green flag and the harp as its national symbol."
First off, I must say that I had always fallen in to the trap of thinking that the Patricks's Saltire was the flag of Ireland during the Kingdom of Ireland. On a little bit of research, I can see now that this is a non-runner, and I suggest it should be taken down. The Saltire was coined only 20 years before the dissolution of the Kingdom and was never a flag of that kingdom but the colours of the Order of St. Patrick, an order of knights created in honor of Poynings laws being eased. From what I can see, that flag was in no way (ever) a flag of the Kingdom of Ireland, and in fact 19th century official British sources deny that Ireland ever had a flag before the Union flag.
But what was this "green flag" that Stewart is referring to? The first thing that struck me was if this was the same Green Flag we all know? i.e. the flag most associated with Irish rebellion during the Kingdom and up to and including 1798? I must say, at the moment, I'm leaning towards "yes, it was."
The green flag was certainly widely popular. It was used as a naval jack and is listed for Ireland in books of flags at least from 1685. However, following the Act of Union it drops out - as I said, with sources denying that it ever had any legitimacy, and saying instead that Ireland never had a flag before the Union Flag, not even the Saltire. Was this because it had become so closely associated with Irish nationalism?
There is another curious hint: the standard of the Lordship, as I have discovered, was the Three Crowns (identical to the flag of Munster). One source says in declaring himself King of Ireland "the three crowns were replaced with the harp by Henry VIII, in case they were mistaken for the Papal tiara." Did Henry VII swap the "flag of Munster" for the "flag of Leinster" (with the convenience that it featured the harp, a symbol listed as the arms of the Kings of Ireland at least since 1280)?
There is also a switch in the "colours of Ireland." Prior to the Norman invasion, there appears to be no colours for Ireland. During the priod of the Lordship, Gaelic leaders appear to have adopted blue as the colour of Ireland. However, during the Kingdom, green became the colour. Could this colour change have been inspired by the "green flag"?
What is the opinion of others? Both with regard to the "green flag" and also with regard to the Saltire being purported as the flag of the Kingdom? I am of the opinion, at the moment at least, that we should change the Saltire to the Green Flag (we know at least that it was very popular, official or not). The Saltire is a non-runner, from what I can see.
-- sony-youth talk 11:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have opened a discussion on a reorganisation of the series of articles dealing with Irish history at Talk:History of Ireland#RFC: Irish history series. --RA ( talk) 23:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Many of the dates shown, especially the date ranges in the box at top right, seem incorrect, as they are of the format '1659-1801' when, with some possible exceptions, they probably should mostly be of the format '1659-1800', as the Union came into effect on the first day of 1801. Because of possible exceptions unknown to me, I hesitate to correct this myself, but some editor more expert than me might perhaps correct the erroneous 1801s, and include some note explaining why any given exception has been retained. Tlhslobus ( talk) 09:27, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
In the absence of any response on this, I've decided to make the article consistent by changing all 1801s to 1800 except where there's a clear reason not to do so, and to explain in the introduction that it ceased to exist on the last day of 1800. If anybody then knows of a good reason for keeping some particular 1801, they are free to change it thmselves. Tlhslobus ( talk) 00:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The opening paragraph gives only Ríoghacht Éireann, whereas Note 2 gives both Ríoghacht Éireann and Ríocht Éireann in different places. And, though I can't be sure, I would expect that Ríoghacht na hÉireann and/or Ríocht na hÉireann may also get used, possibly erroneously, either at the time or in more recent writing, if only because Ríoghacht/Ríocht na hÉireann is the literal word-for-word translation of 'Kingdom of Ireland', just as Poblacht na hÉireann is used to translate 'Republic of Ireland' (plus I'm also thinking of 'ríocht na greine' - kingdom of the sun - in Monsignor Padraig de Brun's poem Valporaiso). As this kind of issue must have frequently arisen before, there may already be some Wikipedia policy on the matter of which I'm unaware. So I'd prefer to leave any fix to some editor more expert than me. Tlhslobus ( talk) 09:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
"Féach ár bpain le sé chéad bliain aige Gaill in éigean, gan rí dár rialadh de Ghaeil, mo chian, i ríoghacht Éireann" This is in the Vincent Morley reference (currently refernce 3), but an accurate translation needs to be added, as this is English Wikipedia. I also suspect there are misspellings, such as 'bpian' (or maybe bpían), meaning 'pain', rather than 'bpain'. A crude translation probably runs something like 'Look at our pain with 600 years of foreigners in control, without a king from our Gaelic rulers, my dear, in the Kingdom of Ireland', but I'd appreciate if somebody could check and correct it, please, as well as checking for possible Gaelic misspellings, as already mentioned. Tlhslobus ( talk) 17:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, I learn something every day. Is IIRC from Wikipedia jargon, or from texting, or from somewhere else? I guess I'll just change it anyway, and maybe I'll have a look through the rules later. Anyway I've put in the link to Google, corrected the spelling, and added the translation, as per the source. But I'm not too happy with it, as I don't see the word 'violent' there ('aige' normally means 'with him', and 'éigean' is 'compulsion' and 'necessity' in irishionary.com, not 'violence', so 'Gaill in éigean' sounds more like 'oppressive foreigners'), plus I'm a bit surprised to learn that my nephew Cian's name means 'grief' (I haven't found a translation of 'Cian' on irishionary.com, Google, or Wikipedia). But unless you've got any better ideas I reckon it'll just have to do, at least for now. Tlhslobus ( talk) 13:13, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi Laurel Lodged. Personally, I think that if a state existed within the periods of existence of this state, it should not be listed as a successor or predecessor. The 'life_span' section shows clearly that the state was not in existence during this period. Placing these in the successors and predecessors suggests that these came before 1542 and after 1800. This causes unnecessary confusion, and doesn't actually inform the reader of anything, since it's already made clear in the 'life_span' section. Regards, Rob ( talk) 13:52, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
That the Commonwealth was short-lived might indicate that it was a failure as a state (i.e. not a success); this has nothing to do with it being a successor state (i.e. a state that followed or replaced a state). The etymology of the two is related but the meanings distinct. What is important is that it was a state and was internationally recognised as such. The "interregnum" is revisionist humbug. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 20:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
The "today" field in the infobox should be left blank. The island of Ireland is not part of the Republic of Ireland, neither is it part of the United Kingdom (nor of Northern Ireland). There is no way to label that field that will not confuse the reader more than it informs. Scolaire ( talk) 19:36, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
The Republic of Ireland covers five sixths of the territory of the Kingdom of Ireland. To say that the latter is "part of" the former is to say that the part is greater than the whole.That is a rhetorical fallacy because that is not what is being said. What is being said territory of the Kingdom of Ireland is today part of the Republic of Ireland AND the United Kingdom. You neglected to mention the United Kingdom in your mathematics. -- Tóraí ( talk) 09:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
WheelerRob has changed the successor state from United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to United Kingdom, with the edit summary "Changed successor link from article about a period, to article about the sovereign state." But this article is only about a period too, as is Lordship of Ireland and Gaelic Ireland. The UKGBI article, like this one, has a "former country" infobox, and its life-span is given as 1801-1922. For consistency this "former country", and not the modern state, should be used as successor. Scolaire ( talk) 14:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
History of the United Kingdom seems to be the redundant one and should be the one deleted. Content should be moved to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the former state where it belongs. Dimadick ( talk) 18:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Rob, can you give us an indication of what other "British history articles" you are currently in discussion about, or is it just that you are disputing the use of UKGBI in other infoboxes? It's not that I want to stalk you, but if there are going to be significant changes in the way that British history is written, it would be useful for us to keep track of them. Scolaire ( talk) 14:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland has been notified of recent flag changes. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 14:31, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
The template documentation states "If an entity simply became a subdivision of another country (state, province, etc.), then link to that subdivision". Ireland retained a legal personality and was an administrative subdivision of the UK. History of Ireland (1801–1923) refers to the period when Ireland was a part of the UK. However constitutionally, Ireland and Great Britain formed a "new" state. The reality is Great Britain annexed Ireland, and renamed the country to reflect its territorial extent. So what is a more appropriate successor entity? The United Kingdom ( United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland) or the subdivision ( History of Ireland (1801–1923))? Rob984 ( talk) 13:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
The claim that Ireland was a 'Constitutional Monarchy' from 1542 until 1800 is sufficiently strange to require a citation from Reliable sources. I note that it we describe it as a client state of the Kingdom of England up to 1707, and the Kingdom of England is currently described (without supporting citations) as a unitary parliamentary monarchy, but NOT as a constitutional monarchy, a term that we currently first use (again without citation) for the Kingdom of Great Britain, from 1707. If reliable sources cannot be found fairly soon for Ireland being a Constitutional Monarchy throughout the relevant period, I suggest we use a similar formula to that for England - parliamentary Monarchy, since it clearly was a Monarchy, and clearly had a parliament, throughout the period in question. Tlhslobus ( talk) 11:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I see in the meantime somebody has already changed it to Monarchy, and I've thanked that editor for the change. On the whole that's probably better than 'parliamentary monarchy' given that the Kingdom of England Article links 'parliamentary' to ' Parliamentary system' which opens by telling us that a Parliamentary system is a democratic system - there was nothing like what we call democracy in the Kingdom of England at the time (and even less in the Kingdom of Ireland), even if that hasn't stopped some Americans from claiming that Britain has been a democracy for centuries. Maybe I need to have a think about putting a few CNs on the English and British articles. Tlhslobus ( talk) 11:52, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
This state is "on Ireland" in the same way that "Killarney is on Ireland". Just like you might say "Bob was on Rathlin Island last week". Why "on" rather than "in"? Because as far as I know, the hundreds of islands surrounding Ireland were also, at various times, under the control of the kingdom. "in Ireland" is quite implicit in excluding other islands, whereas "on Ireland" is certainly less so, if at all. Unless you mean "Ireland" in the sense of the all-Ireland country of Ireland—which would be contentious. Would you feel happier with "on the island of Ireland"? Because "in the island of Ireland" is wrong, and "in Ireland" either implies either in the island of Ireland, or some wider use of the term "Ireland" that is contentious among the British in the North. Rob984 ( talk) 12:34, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Also, this isn't a problem in any other case because the Kingdom of Ireland is definitely a place, often referred as "Ireland". But this is referring to the location of that place, in the geographic sense. In that sense we are talking about islands. Rob984 ( talk) 12:38, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Rob984, it may be confusing but the Kingdom of Ireland meant just that in terms of international law. There was a KofI recognised by the English system from 1542, and therefore by those states that recognised Henry VIII; from 1555 the Papacy and Catholic states recognised it. There were of course occasional long rebellions, and large areas out of control of Dublin for years, but these rebellions were political, in the sense that they were about the future control of the same Kingdom of Ireland. Until 1798 of course. Hope this helps. 78.18.201.154 ( talk) 17:58, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I've requested semi=protection for this page and Lordship of ireland as I've got sick and tired of the ip keeping on doing exactly the same edit and it keeping on being reverted. It's been happening since last June. Dmcq ( talk) 18:55, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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As I have brought up on Talk: Puppet state about clients and puppets, shouldn't the Kingdom of Ireland be called a "puppet state" and not a "client state" as a client state is a more general term than a puppet state? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Conner Neu ( talk) 00:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conner Neu ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
I should start this by pointing to the fact that I am a dual national (UK / Ireland) coming at this from a legal background, have a background in the analysis of constitutional law and nationality law in various jurisdictions with links to the UK.
This is a quite interesting article from a constitutional background. It's also highly political, and as such, I think that getting some agreement to my points before wading in with corrections, no matter how small, might be due.
The Crown of Ireland Act 1542 Technically *did not* create a *personal union* between the King of Ireland and the King of England as King, It in fact creates a Crown in Ireland which is independent - but was "united and knit to the imperial crown of England" to quote the act. That is why Ireland had its own Peerage, independent of the Peerage of the Crown in England. The Crown of Ireland came into existence and was tied as integrally joined to the Imperial Crown of England and part thereof (the word knit) by the act. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aip/Hen8/33/1/section/I.
The Act of Union (Ireland) 1800 This act ceased the independent existence of the Crown of Ireland, and brought it as one into the Imperial Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aip/Geo3/40/38
-- Now when we look further on, the article goes on to say:
In 1937, the link to the British Crown was repealed, but the monarch was the de jure king in the new State until 1949. In the Republic of Ireland the 1542 Act was repealed in 1962.[5]
This jumps straight to the period after the 1922 Irish Free State and is referring to the status of Eire (the republic in all but name) between 1937 to 1949, which once again is simply confusing, and has nothing to do with the Kingdom of Ireland which certainly ceased to exist in 1800 so why are we talking about "link to the British Crown" in 1937.
And if we're going to be really specific the 1922 Irish Free State created a Dominion Crown in any case (clearly recognised by the change in title in 1927 - "By the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India", where prior to 1927 it had been "By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ..." in line with the union between the uk and ireland)
Elvisbrandenburgkremmen (
talk) 18:41, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
1937, the link to the British Crown was repealed, but the monarch was the de jure king in the new State until 1949. In the Republic of Ireland the 1542 Act was repealed in 1962.[5]
So, so much is missing! Also Quote: ‘The legacy of the Kingdom of Ireland remains a bone of contention in Irish-British relations to this day because of the constant ethnic conflict between the native Irish inhabitants and primarily the new Anglo-Irish settlers across the island.’ Frenchmalawi ( talk) 05:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
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The following coordinate fixes are needed for
— 84.224.105.61 ( talk) 16:17, 6 March 2020 (UTC)