with all my resect this move is nothing but science fiction of whoever wrote it, it shows Salah el Din's army as a weak one, and consist of only muslims, while this army actually consisted of muslims and christains, and this army that in the end of the movie gave up to this who call himself ballin, is not true at all, Salah el Din, didn't want to enter the city to kill or to destroy it but wanted to enter it to protect those people who have been savagly killed by who called themselves : "the soldiers of GOD" this movie is totally inaccurate historicaly, i seriously wonder why people don't understand muslims, coz u keep looking at them as weak and blood thirst while Muslims guided the world in its way either through science or math and even medically, but who am i talking to?? u r people who do't want to hear history but to fiction itwith ur hollywood movies and some millions in cinemas.... there is an egyptian movie that descriped everything happened historically 100% accurate more than this scifi u r trying to adertise. stop fictionning, and start documenting right.
Saladin did not surrender to Balian in the film or history. Balian in fact surrended the city to Saladin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.143.254 ( talk) 11:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully someone who was paying more attention than me, or watched the credits, can help out here...a lot of characters seem to have been unnamed. David Thewlis' character is labelled "Hospitaller" on IMDB and even the official website, and some other sites seemed to think that was his actual name. Well, he's obviously "a Hospitaller", but I don't remember anyone saying his name. Also, there is a "Humphrey" listed on IMDB but I don't remember seeing one (and I guess I was a little hasty in linking him to Humphrey IV when I added the cast list here, it could just be a random person named Humphrey, especially since there is no Isabella in the movie). Also, Alexander Siddig's character seems to be similarly unnamed...IMDB used to say "Imad" so I assumed al-Isfahani, but now it says Nasir, and I don't think he is ever named in the movie. Maybe all this was cut out for the theatre version? I've heard there is a much longer cut. Can anyone help? Adam Bishop 15:15, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
According to interviews, there's at least 80 minutes worth of footage that was cut out. As far as Thewlis' character, the only name listed in the script is "Hospitaller". nmw 23:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Humphrey IV in real life was certainly no hospitaller, a warrior knight. Rather, the real Humphrey IV was the local soft gay boy. Sources state he avoided quarrel etc, and rather obviously he later was Richard Lionheart's boyfriend. Apparently there someone confused two characters of the movie. Who played the movie "Humphrey" and what sort of character he was in the movie? - 62.78.105.225
Regarding Alexander Siddig's character, his website [1] has some scans of making-of materials. One page says: 'Another character invented for the story's purposes is the young Muslim knight Imad... While Imad is fictional, his name (and to some extent his character) is an homage to the eloquent Muslim chronicler Imad ad-Din...'
Nasir (the name given for Siddig's character at IMDB) is also the same given for Syriana as of 2005-05-08. I don't recall whether or not his character was ever mentioned by name in the movie, but he definitely had a one-word name listed in the credits. I wish I could remember what it was.
"I found this confusing too because now IMDB also refers to Sid's character as 'Imad'-juliansgirl7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Juliansgirl7 ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
(VERY MILD SPOILER) Since the identity of his character is uncertain when first introduced, it's possible that 'Nasir' is an alias. -- .c 17:47, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Even though it seems as if the name is never mentioned in the film, Nasir is the name of Alexander Siddig's character in the credits. I had thought that his name was Rashid, as when he is telling Saladin to attack the Christopher Gate, and the other fellow suggest that the wall is stronger, he taps his own head and says, "It is weaker. Rashid has seen it."- Chris Logan
Does anyone know why Ed Norton is uncredited for his performance as Baldwin? He was really good--one of the best things about the movie, IMO--and I was surprised when I saw on IMDb that he's not credited. nmw 16:19, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I am also quite surprised to find out it was Ed Norton behind the mask! Plus, he IS now credited on IMDb. (just a random fact: in the film credits of Shakespeare in Love Rupert Everett is never credited as "Kit Marlowe") ewok37 07:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The movie doesn't show the wedding of the Sibylla and Guy. It shows their coronation. Am I wrong? I wanted to be completely sure before I made any alterations.
Wait... at the breakfast scene where Sibylla and Balian and Guy were all seated, when Guy rises he says something to the effect that "no one will be upset that he leaves the table, least of all his wife," the then camera goes to Sibylla. So the movie shows that they were married at the start of the movie. Then there is a scene where Baldwin is atempting to have his sister's marrage annuled as she is his legitimate successor. Currently the page gives the impression Sibylla was single at the start of the movie. It clearly showed she was married, albiet unhappily. It is a minor thing, but should be corrected. Drachenfyre
Is it better now? Adam Bishop 04:10, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
They better be married in the movie... historically it had happened in 1180. That makes one historical error less. As for unhappily, well, why does she crown him when she succeeds to the throne then? yeah, that's one more monahan flub. -- Svartalf 17:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems fairly clear that, whoever David Thewlis's character may be, he is not the Grand Master of the Hospitallers. When heading off to Hattin, he says that he is going because his order is going. So perhaps the reference to him possibly being Roger of Moulins should be removed? john k 23:32, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Here, someone seems to change edits so that the person here stays as "Tiberias". does it mean the first name, the christened name?
Somewhere I saw a version that the guy was "Count of Tiberias"...
Does anyone know precisely??
I can think that it is the use of peerage lordship as the name, such as queen victoria's father signed himself as "Kent and Strathearn", without using his first name (Edward) nor any other surname. Tiberias certainly was the name of a town in the Palestine described in the movie, thus a relevant name of peerage lordship. Thus, "count of Tiberias" is a possibility. (btw, the character in real world was, among his other titles, actually "Prince of Tiberias, jure uxoris" or "lord of Tiberias, jure uxoris")
On the other hand, I can think that a movie-writer has decided to create some remnant of Hellenistic past, and thus, first name "Tiberias" therefore used as boys' name in the Palestine of the movie. (latin: tiberius, greek: tiberios, invented palastinic hellenistic: tiberias) This could be a deliberate attempt to signal that the guy was REALLY a native, not a crusader or grandson of crusaders, but a native with a thousand-year family tree in Palestine.
Is there any other alternative explanation?
And, which explanation feels most probable?
Any clues from the movie's material?
I repeat my question, since it did not get answered in the text above: Was Tiberias a first name or a surname (/equivalent of surname) in the movie? Any clues in the movie and its text mateial to give answer to this question? 62.78.104.45 09:35, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This answer was more helpful. Thanks. So, Tiberias apparently is the first name. This is interesting. Either the scripter did not think that Tiberias is an unusual first name for a christian (/latin/ french) boy, or there is an interesting allusion to presumably Hellenistic era. 62.78.104.199 09:24, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Probably in some earlier draft of the play he's referred to as Count, or Prince, or whatever, of Tiberias. So they call him "Tiberias" just as they would refer to Balian, Lord of Ebelin, as "Ebelin". Not a surname exactly, because at that time people of Western European culture didn't really have surnames, strictly speaking. If you were the "So-and-so of Ducksburg" you were referred to by your peers as "Ducksburg". Tom 129.93.17.135 01:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
On the game Civilization IV, Saladin looks a lot like KOH saladin. Could this be worthy of an "influence" part here?
In the Historical accuracy section the statement "Balian knighted everyone who could carry a sword" is incorrect. According to Stanley Lane-Poole's Saladin: All-Powerful Sultan and the Uniter of Islam, page 225, "since there were but two knights in the place... he knighted thirty burghers." In the same paragraph he says there were 60,000 men in the city. I'll give it a few days to see if anyone has anything to add, then I'll probably make the change myself if no one else does.-- ◀Puck talk▶ 13:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Should we perhaps mention somewhere that the ending of the siege in the film was completely different to what actually happened?
In the film it was basically: "Well played chaps. You lost but you're free to go." Whereas what actually happened was that everyone in Jerusalem had to pay a ransom to be set free (ten dinars per man, five per woman). Balian tried to negotiate a lump sum to cover thousands of poor who couldn't afford to pay for themselves. Unfortunately the money raised wasn't enough, so in the end many thousands of people ended up in captivity as slaves, or worse. -- nemeng Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:04:14 +1000 (UTC)
Patriarch Heraclius, despite the attempts made on this page to defend him, was abominably greedy. Arranging the ransom for poor people should have been largely the job of the church, but (just as in the film) Heraclius was more interested in leaving with his loot. Some of Saladin's officers were so disgusted by this that they themselves chipped in to ransom a good portion of the poor.
That's a fact. Tom
129.93.17.135
00:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The article is unclear about when the Knights Templar etc. were executed: It was not in the context of the siege of Jerusalem, but earlier, to be precise: after the battle of Hattin. (cf. the German publication by Peter Thorau, Die Kreuzzüge, Munich 2004, pps. 92f.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.135.91.127 ( talk) 10:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
To TOM above: It's a FACT?? And your assertion makes it so, right? Jeez. Go to the wikipedia page on him if you would like to learn the truth. There are also several contemporary histories that deal with him at length. The negative image the filmakers chose to portray comes from an account written by his chief rival, containing claims and events found in no other writings and wholly dismissed today by historians. Who knows what his real character or motivation was like? The only "facts" are that he was present at the siege; offered himself as a hostage; organized the collection effort as regards ransom money; and then went to Tyre with Balian.
As has been pointed out as nauseum, the film is an historical disaster, and while it has some good scenes, some fine acting (Bloom notwithstanding), etc., is prety clealy designed to be a "Muslim good/Christian bad" vehicle, and the depiction of Heraclius was designed to fit into that mold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.90.86 ( talk) 14:04, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Losbolos ( Talk | contribs) added Category:Historically inaccurate films. Out of curiosity I went to look at Category:Historically accurate films and discovered it doesn't exist. Is that an oversite or a reflection of reality? I should probably sleep now.-- ◀Puck talk▶ 12:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
what does sibylla say to balian before they make love.
Sibylla: I’m not here with you because I’m… I’m bored or wicked. I’m here because, because in the east between one person and another, there is only light
I removed the following line:
"It is not specified whether they are simply riding off together, or whether she is leading him after Richard."
When watching the film, note they are heading in the same direction that Godfrey of Ibelin and his Knights do at the beginning of the film - toward the Village,presumably coming from the direction of Italy. Remember too, when Bailian says Sibillya must decide not to be queen for him to be with her. It is clear they will not be returning to the Holy Land. Seaphoto 22:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Not all reviews particulary attacked the movie for being perhaps too short, some of them attacked the film for either resembling to Lord of the Rings (wich was at the height of its popularity back then), for its portrayal of Muslims (the movie came at a sensitive time, War of Iraq was in peak and Muslims were depicted as a whole as mysogenist terrorists) and for its resemblance to Gladiator (in both cinematography and story, although the DC makes clear that both movies are different, at least in story).
Does anyone else notice that everytime the director's cut is mentioned in this article, it's praised as being one of the greatest films of all time? One person even said it was on par with Lawrence of Arabia. Even if there was a link to a reviewer saying that, this film is pretty much forgotten.-- Freepablo 16:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is filled with an absurd level of bias in favor of the film. I came here just for some background info on the film after seeing it one night on HBO, not an article written by some fanboy of the film. A more neutral article is needed here.- 24.186.220.44 04:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I would say the entire article is filled with an absurd amount of nonsense on ALL levels. It states in the introduction that this film is 'a heavily fictionalised portrayal', and then under critical response we have paragraph after paragraph citing historians' opinions about it being fictional-- gee, you think? Is it intended to be a fictional film? It is? Okay, let's start with that. Now what's it about? How was it conceived? Who does the cast consist of? What is the home media specifications? What did major film reviewers say about it? Ad nauseam. It's not difficult to write a descriptive article-- it's difficult writing it when the article reads like a prescription telling you how to think of it, and then, considering the nature of Wikipedia, it turns into a debate forum. An example is below; the commenter speaks about Orlando Bloom being a bad actor-- what does that have to do with the film itself? That's prescription, that's not description. Ychennay's comment is much more descriptively based-- he asks for the particulars of the director cuts' DVD, not a review of it's content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.105.184.93 ( talk) 15:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I used to think he was a fine actor, and he doesn't seem pompous or conceited, but man, what a bad character body. - Augustulus
Well, I wouldn't be that vile. But I think he's more pretty than actually a good storyteller. Augustulus 00:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The article clearly states that his performance was despised in the U.S. but it also point out that he received a best european actor award. Personnaly, I think he did quite well. Not as well as in LOTR but he didn't disappoint me Mitch1981 ( talk) 18:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
One of the film's dramatic issues is what it means to "be good". Bloom is put in situations where he has to make major moral decisions, yet we do not see much in the way of inner struggle. It is, in my view, a flat, uninvolving performance, devoid of any sense we're seeing a real human being with real problems. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 14:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I was amazed on reading this fact in the "see also" section. I had to grab the soundtrack and listen to it again and sure enough the first stanza of this song clearly audible. The music in this film is much more engaging and accurate to the time period, as well as more emotional, than Gladiator. Knight45 16:59 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Quick note to everyone: Alexander Siddig's character is named Imad, and is based on Saladin's biographer. Wiki-newbie 18:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
i like Kingdom of Heaven, but until the movie gets some recognition (such as time, or a wide array of websites giving a serious praise), the article cannot stay as it is right now, too much unsourced info for an article that tries to defend the movie.
The article says that Heraclius was unnamed in the film, however, just before he walks off to meet Saladin, Balian says, "You've taught me a lot about religion, Heraclius." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.17.119.175 ( talk) 22:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Seeing as how this is probably the section of the article most fraught with POV peril, could some sources be cited for the assertions made here? Generally speaking it seems to be accurate to me (a well-educated layman), but none of the information is currently verifiable. I think that care needs to be taken when establishing what the prevailing theology of the time was (which might not necessarily comport with prevailing contemporary theology). AFAIK, even theologians and historians today have difficulty pining down exactly what Catholics thought 900 years ago; the level of confidence with which statements are made here seems to exceed their epistemological basis. In any case, sources are needed. 67.181.215.47 07:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC) Improved now, thanks to editing from an anon. 67.181.215.47 10:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it might be good to add a section devoted strictly to flaws in the character portrayals in the film. The Historical Accuracy section is very long and if we exported some of that info into a new category, it would clean things up a bit. I made a write-up pertaining to character depictions in the film, but the Historical Accuracy section is long enough as it is. Any thoughts? JamesMcCloud129 05:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The "historical accuracy" section is itself guilty of conveying some inaccurate impressions! It says that Patriarch (Archbishop of Jersualem) Heraclius is "innacurately portrayed as a coward" and tells us Yes, Saladin did allow Balian to leave and the Crusader population to ransom themselves, but lots of 'em who couldn't pay up were sold into slavery. Not false exactly, but misleading. It would normally be the job of the richer sections of the Crusader population, and especially their Church, to raise the ransom for the poorer folk. But it's a fact that Heraclius and others were stingy on that point, and were more interested in leaving with their loot than using it to redeem the poor. Many of Saladin's officers (and I'm not making this up) were so disgusted by the stinginess of rich churchmen like Heraclius that they contributed their own money to redeem many of the poor folk!
I think also that readers would be interested in knowing that the film was QUITE accurate in the matter of the negotiations between Balian and Saladin after the battle of Hattim: Saladin agreed to let Balian go free, and gave him safe passage to Jerusalem, in return for a promise to retire from the conflict, but when Balian reached Jerusalem the Crusader inhabitants begged him to command the defense, which he did, apologizing to Saladin but with the excuse that his duty to his people took precedence over his promise to Saladin. Saladin understood and freed him from his promise. Then after the surrender, he not only gave Balian and his wife Maria Comnena safe conduct to Tyre, he provided them with an armed escort. -- Nobody should try to deny that Saladin was every bit the class act he's portrayed in the film as being. Tom 129.93.17.135 00:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I think a separate article for the soundtrack would be good... the article is pretty long already and there is enough content and information IMO about the soundtrack to warrant its own article. What do you guys think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ychennay ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
In the final scene of the film, Balian tells the crusaders to "Go east to where the men speak Italian," however, in 1189, the year of King Richard's Crusade, Italian was still hundreds of years away from standardization as a language, and the Tuscan dialect it would be based on was not spoken in any region along the crusade route. -- NEMT 17:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
This film is not historically accurate. That doesn't concern me. It is a work of fiction, not a documentary. However it does represent Christianity and the Crusaders in a negative light, and shows the Moslems as enlightened and more civilised. This is wrong. Do not forget that the Crusaders were not invading Moslem land, they were trying to free Christian land from recent Moslem occupation. And we all know that Christianity, for all its faults, is a more compassionate and less violent religion than Islam. Finally, who can seriously argue that Moslems are more progressive and civilised than Christians? 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 08:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The link takes you to Phillips the actor instead of the Phillips the scholar.
In the article it says His death is depicted as an act of euthanasia by his mother, using poison. To my understanding, this is not correct. Sibylla clearly uses acid, which she drips in the boy’s ear. (Because he is a leper, he does not feel pain at this moment.) It would also be illogical to use poison and pour it in the ear rather than put it in a drink. -- 172.158.227.206 10:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a precedent for putting poison in an ear - see Shakespeare's 'Hamlet' and the play within the play —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.11.77.197 ( talk) 14:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Sources
Setton, Kenneth Meyer (Ed.) (1955-1962) A History of the Crusades. Two volumes. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press. Second edition (1969-1989) Six volumes. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press.
Prawer, Joshua (1972) The Crusaders’ kingdom: European colonialism in the Middle Ages. New York: Praeger. New edition (2001) London: Phoenix.
Ellenblum, Ronnie (2007) Crusader Castles and Modern Histories. Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press.
-- Groucho ( talk) 12:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that the Patriach of Jerusalem does invite Tiberias by his title "Count of Tiberias" so the name Tiberias was only a abreviation of his full title —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.143.254 ( talk) 18:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Did Kevin McKidd's character perish in the storm when Bailian set out from Messina? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.18.240 ( talk) 03:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The following quote is wrong and unfounded:
During one scene in the movie, shortly before Hattin, three soldiers referred to as "Templars" attack Balian; however, they clearly wear the white surcoats with black crosses of Teutonic Knights, rather than the white and red of the Knights Templar. The Teutonic Knights were not a military order until 1198.
The claim where it says that knights in White surcoats and Black crosses is false, as if I remember rightly, which I'm sure I do, the knights who attacked Balian had Black surcoats and a White cross, clearly Hospitallers, rather than the non existent Teutons that the sentence claims appear in the movie. I'll find a picture and a source for it later, but it's not like the statements source is useful unless we're going into the Teutonic Order in depth. <_<
Imperator
Talk
17:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a bunch. Whoever wrote them up seems to have just thrown words onto the article without any real subject in mind. It goes on and on about how some critics have said "THIS IS SUPER BAD FOR CHRISTIAN/MUSLIM RELATIONS" without any explanation at all of HOW it would affect them. A mention is made of one critic stating it is "Osama Bin Laden's version of the Crusades".
Perhaps the critic did not realize that it was the Christians who were the aggressors in the Crusades?
Any bias I see in this film is so minimal as to be not even worth mentioning; -Of all the major Muslim and Christian characters, I can name two Muslim characters who are portrayed as good and chivalrous (Salah ad-Din, Siddig's character) and one who is neutral (the one who complained about Salah ad-Din's strategy). I can only name three Christian characters who are portrayed as wicked and evil (Guy de Lusignon, Reynald de Chatillon, the priest in France), one who is a coward, and the rest are in the same tone of goodness, virtue, and chivalry.
Considering that the Muslim characters I mentioned are pretty much the ONLY major Muslim characters, I think it's being pretty fair in portraying two of them as good men, and one of them as an average man. Especially considering that the number of good and neutral Christians portrayed include: the German and the African from Godfrey's party (Almaric and Firuz?), Godfrey himself, Balian, Sibylla, Baldwin IV, Tiberias, the Knight Hospitallar, and Kevin McKidd's character. Clearly this is more from the point of view of the Christians than the Muslims, so there would be more Christian characters.
Judging from this, I can see absolutely no evidence from the movie or its tone to imply that it is in any way "dangerous" to Arab/Western relations, or the sort of portrayal of Christians that Osama Bin Laden would agree with. Do these reviewers remember the scenes with Nasir (Siddig's character) and Balian, sparing each others lives and honorably speaking with one another? Baldwin IV and Salah ad-Din conversing with one another with immense respect? Salah ad-Din standing up a fallen cross inside a temple in Jerusalem? All of the scenes in Ibelin, in which Muslims and Christians are working and living together to bring water to the land?
I think this 'criticism' section needs a MAJOR re-vamping, with critics' opinions being clearly stated as opinions, and not taken as the overall tone of the entire section, and some solid proof of WHERE and HOW these accusations make this film some sort of anti-Christian propaganda. It's just bullshit, and it's bad for you. TM George Carlin
65.87.105.8 (
talk)
15:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be receptions in Arab world, especcially in Syria? Because, a Syrian actor, Ghassan Massoud, appears there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.5.206.236 ( talk) 13:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I saw Kingdom of Heaven for the first time yesterday (BD), and was generally impressed (though "I fought for two days with an arrow in my testicle" will not go down as one of the all-time great movie lines). The question of historical accuracy didn't seem important, because the film was obviously created, not to be historically correct, but To Make A Point. Multiple points, in fact. One of these is a discussion of what it means to be good and do good, as well as how one is to make the "right" decision when there is no obvious right or wrong. The other is that all the sides are fighting over something that simply isn't important -- at least, to anyone with a modicum of common sense and good will. Kingdom of Heaven is ultimately a condemnation of "organized religion" and the people who use "God wills it!" as an excuse for atrocities. (None of this is subtle; it's almost thrown in the audience's face, and really should be discussed in the article.) Of course, such films rarely have any effect on the thinking of the people who most need to see them. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 14:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
There also is used the Track "The Crow descends" composed by Graeme Revell from the Crow Soundtrack, when Balian is attacked by 3 (?) black fashioned Soldiers. Could be mentioned in the article.-- ClaptonDennis ( talk) 05:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Below section was tagged for needing additional references since 2008. I have removed unsourced statements from the article. Please feel free to reincorporate this material with appropriate sourcing. Doniago ( talk) 16:15, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Historical Accuracy (pre-removal of unsourced material)
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==Historical accuracy==
Orlando Bloom's character, Balian of Ibelin, was a close ally of Raymond; however, he was a mature gentleman, just a year or two younger than Raymond, and one of the most important nobles in the kingdom, not a French blacksmith. His father Barisan (which was originally his own name, modified into French as 'Balian') founded the Ibelin family in the east, and probably came from Italy. Balian and Sibylla were indeed united in the defense of Jerusalem; however, no romantic relationship existed between the two. Balian married Sibylla's stepmother Maria Comnena, Dowager Queen of Jerusalem and Lady of Nablus. The Old French Continuation of William of Tyre (the so-called Chronicle of Ernoul) claimed that Sibylla had been infatuated with Balian's older brother Baldwin of Ibelin, a widower over twice her age, but this is doubtful; instead, it seems that Raymond of Tripoli attempted a coup to marry her off to him to strengthen the position of his faction; however, this legend seems to have been behind the film's creation of a romance between Sibylla and a member of the Ibelin family. [1] The events of the siege of Jerusalem are based on the Old French Continuation of William of Tyre, a favorable account partly written by Ernoul, one of Balian's officers, and other contemporary documents. Saladin did besiege Jerusalem for almost a month, and was able to knock down a portion of the wall. In the film, Balian knighted everyone who could carry a sword, but historical accounts say he only knighted some burgesses. The exact number varies in different accounts, but it is probably less than one hundred in a city which had tens of thousands of male inhabitants and refugees. Balian personally negotiated the surrender of the city with Saladin, after threatening to destroy every building and kill the 3000–5000 Muslim inhabitants of the city. Saladin allowed Balian and his family to leave in peace, along with everyone else who could arrange to pay a ransom. King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem, who reigned from 1174 to 1185, was a leper, and his sister Sibylla did marry Guy of Lusignan. Also, Baldwin IV had a falling out with Guy before his death, and so Guy did not succeed Baldwin IV immediately. Baldwin crowned Sibylla's son from her previous marriage to William of Montferrat, five-year-old Baldwin V co-king in his own lifetime, in 1183. [2] The little boy reigned as sole king for one year, dying in 1186 at nine years of age. After her son's death, Sibylla and Guy (to whom she was devoted) garrisoned the city, and she claimed the throne. The coronation scene in the movie was, in real life, more of a shock: Sibylla had been forced to promise to divorce Guy before becoming queen, with the assurance that she would be permitted to pick her own consort. After being crowned by Patriarch Heraclius of Jerusalem (who is unnamed in the movie), she chose to crown Guy as her consort. Raymond III of Tripoli, the film's Tiberias, was not present, but was in Nablus attempting a coup, with Balian of Ibelin, to raise her half-sister (Balian's stepdaughter), princess Isabella of Jerusalem, to the throne; however, Isabella's husband, Humphrey IV of Toron, refusing to precipitate a civil war, swore allegiance to Guy. [3] Raymond of Tripoli was a cousin of Amalric I of Jerusalem, and one of the Kingdom's most powerful nobles, as well as sometime regent. He had a claim to the throne himself, but, being childless, instead tried to advance his allies the Ibelin family. He was often in conflict with Guy and Raynald, who had risen to their positions by marrying wealthy heiresses and through the king's favor. Guy and Raynald did harass Saladin's caravans, and the claim that Raynald captured Saladin's sister is based on the account given in the Old French Continuation of William of Tyre. This claim is not supported by any other accounts, and is generally believed to be false. In actuality, after Raynald's attack on one caravan, Saladin made sure that the next one, in which his sister was traveling, was properly guarded: the lady came to no harm. [1] The discord between the rival factions in the kingdom gave Saladin the opportunity to pursue his long-term goal of conquering it. The kingdom's army was defeated at the Battle of Hattin, partly due to the conflict between Guy and Raymond. As already stated, the battle itself is not shown in the movie, but its aftermath is depicted. The Muslims captured Guy and Raynald, and according to al-Safadi in al-Wafi bi'l-wafayat, executed Raynald after he drank from the goblet offered to Guy, as the sultan had once made a promise never to give anything to Raynald. Guy was imprisoned, but later freed. He attempted to retain the kingship even after the deaths of Sibylla and their daughters during his siege of Acre in 1190, but lost in an election to Conrad of Montferrat in 1192. Richard I of England, his only supporter, sold him the lordship of Cyprus, where he died c. 1194. There was a Haute Cour, a "high court", a sort of medieval parliament, in which Jeremy Irons' character Tiberias is seen arguing with Guy for or against war, in front of Baldwin IV as the final judge. The movie alludes to the Battle of Montgisard in 1177, in which 16-year-old Baldwin IV defeated Saladin, with Saladin narrowly escaping. The Knights Hospitaller and Knights Templar were the most enthusiastic about fighting Saladin and the Muslims. They were monastic military orders, committed to celibacy. Neither Guy nor Raynald was a Templar, as the movie implies by costuming them both in Templar surcoats: they were secular nobles with wives and families, simply supported by the Templars. The "uneasy truce" referred to in the closing scene refers to the Treaty of Ramla, negotiated, with Balian's help, at the end of the Third Crusade. The Third Crusade is alluded to at the end of the movie, when Richard I of England visits Balian in France. Balian, of course, was not from France and did not return there with Sibylla; she and her two daughters died of fever in camp during the siege of Acre. Conrad of Montferrat had denied her and Guy entry to the remaining stronghold of Tyre, and thus Guy was attempting to take another city for himself. Balian's relations with Richard were far from amicable, because he supported Conrad against Richard's vassal Guy. He and his wife Maria arranged her daughter Isabella's forcible divorce from Humphrey of Toron so she could marry Conrad. Ambroise, who wrote a poetic account of the crusade, called Balian "more false than a goblin" and said he "should be hunted with dogs". [4] The anonymous author of the Itinerarium Peregrinorum et Gesta Regis Ricardi wrote that Balian was a member of a "council of consummate iniquity", and described him as cruel, fickle, and faithless, and accused him of taking bribes from Conrad. The young Balian of the movie thus did not exist in reality. The historical Balian had descendants by Maria Comnena. Thanks to their close relationship to Sibylla's half-sister and successor, Maria's daughter Queen Isabella (not shown in the movie), the Ibelins became the most powerful noble family in the rump Kingdom of Jerusalem as well as in Cyprus in the thirteenth century. Most notably, Maria and Balian's son John, the Lord of Beirut, was a dominant force in the politics of Outremer for the first third of the thirteenth century. Near the end of the film and after Saladin has entered the city; he is seen watching as a crescent ornament is being raised on top of a building presumably a mosque. This is an anachronism as at that time mosques did not bear any kind of symbols on the minarets. The crescent was introduced many centuries later with the Turkish Ottoman Empire. An episode of The History Channel's series History vs. Hollywood analyzed the historical accuracy of the film. This program and a Movie Real (a series by A&E Network) episode about Kingdom of Heaven were both included on the DVD version of the movie. |
It's obvious how the knights templar were actually negotiators and helpers to other people to finding a simple journey or destination, as well with secrets, other than the film showing them as men of killing innocent blood. The real Templars, although, most of them were more like the Hospitallers in the film, helping Balian of Ibelin and keeping the kingdom and secrets of the world safe.-- 74.34.86.120 ( talk) 17:08, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
The film shows Saladin executing Raynald for drinking water without permission but sparing Guy because "Kings do not kill Kings". That tallies with the story as known. Before the Siege of Jerusalem Guy is shown being paraded in front of the laughing Muslim army, facing backwards on a donkey, in his underpants. Does this have any known basis in the records? Paulturtle ( talk) 14:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Cheers. Thought so. Perhaps not very plausible either, as senior officials in most eras like to preserve the dignity due to rank, even if the man who holds it is a fool. But who knows. Paulturtle ( talk) 23:59, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
This movie was the subject of a well-publicised plagiarism row and I'm surprised to see no mention of it. Don't get me wrong, I have no axe to grind here, but I was just listening to a talk by historian James Reston Jr, who claims his history of the crusades is the true source of the story and it's clear that it was quite well covered in the press and should be mentioned - if it legally can be (there was no actual legal suit) - briefly.
Here's one link
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2005-04-28-kingdom-plagiarized_x.htm?csp=34
I don't have the skills to put it in myself.
THe source for all this is,
History and Movies: An Historian Writes a Screenplay - a talk on the LIbrary of Congress YouTube channel.
http://www.loc.gov/today/cyberlc/feature_wdesc.php?rec=5216
82.6.141.117 ( talk) 15:42, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
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with all my resect this move is nothing but science fiction of whoever wrote it, it shows Salah el Din's army as a weak one, and consist of only muslims, while this army actually consisted of muslims and christains, and this army that in the end of the movie gave up to this who call himself ballin, is not true at all, Salah el Din, didn't want to enter the city to kill or to destroy it but wanted to enter it to protect those people who have been savagly killed by who called themselves : "the soldiers of GOD" this movie is totally inaccurate historicaly, i seriously wonder why people don't understand muslims, coz u keep looking at them as weak and blood thirst while Muslims guided the world in its way either through science or math and even medically, but who am i talking to?? u r people who do't want to hear history but to fiction itwith ur hollywood movies and some millions in cinemas.... there is an egyptian movie that descriped everything happened historically 100% accurate more than this scifi u r trying to adertise. stop fictionning, and start documenting right.
Saladin did not surrender to Balian in the film or history. Balian in fact surrended the city to Saladin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.143.254 ( talk) 11:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully someone who was paying more attention than me, or watched the credits, can help out here...a lot of characters seem to have been unnamed. David Thewlis' character is labelled "Hospitaller" on IMDB and even the official website, and some other sites seemed to think that was his actual name. Well, he's obviously "a Hospitaller", but I don't remember anyone saying his name. Also, there is a "Humphrey" listed on IMDB but I don't remember seeing one (and I guess I was a little hasty in linking him to Humphrey IV when I added the cast list here, it could just be a random person named Humphrey, especially since there is no Isabella in the movie). Also, Alexander Siddig's character seems to be similarly unnamed...IMDB used to say "Imad" so I assumed al-Isfahani, but now it says Nasir, and I don't think he is ever named in the movie. Maybe all this was cut out for the theatre version? I've heard there is a much longer cut. Can anyone help? Adam Bishop 15:15, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
According to interviews, there's at least 80 minutes worth of footage that was cut out. As far as Thewlis' character, the only name listed in the script is "Hospitaller". nmw 23:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Humphrey IV in real life was certainly no hospitaller, a warrior knight. Rather, the real Humphrey IV was the local soft gay boy. Sources state he avoided quarrel etc, and rather obviously he later was Richard Lionheart's boyfriend. Apparently there someone confused two characters of the movie. Who played the movie "Humphrey" and what sort of character he was in the movie? - 62.78.105.225
Regarding Alexander Siddig's character, his website [1] has some scans of making-of materials. One page says: 'Another character invented for the story's purposes is the young Muslim knight Imad... While Imad is fictional, his name (and to some extent his character) is an homage to the eloquent Muslim chronicler Imad ad-Din...'
Nasir (the name given for Siddig's character at IMDB) is also the same given for Syriana as of 2005-05-08. I don't recall whether or not his character was ever mentioned by name in the movie, but he definitely had a one-word name listed in the credits. I wish I could remember what it was.
"I found this confusing too because now IMDB also refers to Sid's character as 'Imad'-juliansgirl7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Juliansgirl7 ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
(VERY MILD SPOILER) Since the identity of his character is uncertain when first introduced, it's possible that 'Nasir' is an alias. -- .c 17:47, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Even though it seems as if the name is never mentioned in the film, Nasir is the name of Alexander Siddig's character in the credits. I had thought that his name was Rashid, as when he is telling Saladin to attack the Christopher Gate, and the other fellow suggest that the wall is stronger, he taps his own head and says, "It is weaker. Rashid has seen it."- Chris Logan
Does anyone know why Ed Norton is uncredited for his performance as Baldwin? He was really good--one of the best things about the movie, IMO--and I was surprised when I saw on IMDb that he's not credited. nmw 16:19, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I am also quite surprised to find out it was Ed Norton behind the mask! Plus, he IS now credited on IMDb. (just a random fact: in the film credits of Shakespeare in Love Rupert Everett is never credited as "Kit Marlowe") ewok37 07:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The movie doesn't show the wedding of the Sibylla and Guy. It shows their coronation. Am I wrong? I wanted to be completely sure before I made any alterations.
Wait... at the breakfast scene where Sibylla and Balian and Guy were all seated, when Guy rises he says something to the effect that "no one will be upset that he leaves the table, least of all his wife," the then camera goes to Sibylla. So the movie shows that they were married at the start of the movie. Then there is a scene where Baldwin is atempting to have his sister's marrage annuled as she is his legitimate successor. Currently the page gives the impression Sibylla was single at the start of the movie. It clearly showed she was married, albiet unhappily. It is a minor thing, but should be corrected. Drachenfyre
Is it better now? Adam Bishop 04:10, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
They better be married in the movie... historically it had happened in 1180. That makes one historical error less. As for unhappily, well, why does she crown him when she succeeds to the throne then? yeah, that's one more monahan flub. -- Svartalf 17:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems fairly clear that, whoever David Thewlis's character may be, he is not the Grand Master of the Hospitallers. When heading off to Hattin, he says that he is going because his order is going. So perhaps the reference to him possibly being Roger of Moulins should be removed? john k 23:32, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Here, someone seems to change edits so that the person here stays as "Tiberias". does it mean the first name, the christened name?
Somewhere I saw a version that the guy was "Count of Tiberias"...
Does anyone know precisely??
I can think that it is the use of peerage lordship as the name, such as queen victoria's father signed himself as "Kent and Strathearn", without using his first name (Edward) nor any other surname. Tiberias certainly was the name of a town in the Palestine described in the movie, thus a relevant name of peerage lordship. Thus, "count of Tiberias" is a possibility. (btw, the character in real world was, among his other titles, actually "Prince of Tiberias, jure uxoris" or "lord of Tiberias, jure uxoris")
On the other hand, I can think that a movie-writer has decided to create some remnant of Hellenistic past, and thus, first name "Tiberias" therefore used as boys' name in the Palestine of the movie. (latin: tiberius, greek: tiberios, invented palastinic hellenistic: tiberias) This could be a deliberate attempt to signal that the guy was REALLY a native, not a crusader or grandson of crusaders, but a native with a thousand-year family tree in Palestine.
Is there any other alternative explanation?
And, which explanation feels most probable?
Any clues from the movie's material?
I repeat my question, since it did not get answered in the text above: Was Tiberias a first name or a surname (/equivalent of surname) in the movie? Any clues in the movie and its text mateial to give answer to this question? 62.78.104.45 09:35, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This answer was more helpful. Thanks. So, Tiberias apparently is the first name. This is interesting. Either the scripter did not think that Tiberias is an unusual first name for a christian (/latin/ french) boy, or there is an interesting allusion to presumably Hellenistic era. 62.78.104.199 09:24, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Probably in some earlier draft of the play he's referred to as Count, or Prince, or whatever, of Tiberias. So they call him "Tiberias" just as they would refer to Balian, Lord of Ebelin, as "Ebelin". Not a surname exactly, because at that time people of Western European culture didn't really have surnames, strictly speaking. If you were the "So-and-so of Ducksburg" you were referred to by your peers as "Ducksburg". Tom 129.93.17.135 01:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
On the game Civilization IV, Saladin looks a lot like KOH saladin. Could this be worthy of an "influence" part here?
In the Historical accuracy section the statement "Balian knighted everyone who could carry a sword" is incorrect. According to Stanley Lane-Poole's Saladin: All-Powerful Sultan and the Uniter of Islam, page 225, "since there were but two knights in the place... he knighted thirty burghers." In the same paragraph he says there were 60,000 men in the city. I'll give it a few days to see if anyone has anything to add, then I'll probably make the change myself if no one else does.-- ◀Puck talk▶ 13:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Should we perhaps mention somewhere that the ending of the siege in the film was completely different to what actually happened?
In the film it was basically: "Well played chaps. You lost but you're free to go." Whereas what actually happened was that everyone in Jerusalem had to pay a ransom to be set free (ten dinars per man, five per woman). Balian tried to negotiate a lump sum to cover thousands of poor who couldn't afford to pay for themselves. Unfortunately the money raised wasn't enough, so in the end many thousands of people ended up in captivity as slaves, or worse. -- nemeng Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:04:14 +1000 (UTC)
Patriarch Heraclius, despite the attempts made on this page to defend him, was abominably greedy. Arranging the ransom for poor people should have been largely the job of the church, but (just as in the film) Heraclius was more interested in leaving with his loot. Some of Saladin's officers were so disgusted by this that they themselves chipped in to ransom a good portion of the poor.
That's a fact. Tom
129.93.17.135
00:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The article is unclear about when the Knights Templar etc. were executed: It was not in the context of the siege of Jerusalem, but earlier, to be precise: after the battle of Hattin. (cf. the German publication by Peter Thorau, Die Kreuzzüge, Munich 2004, pps. 92f.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.135.91.127 ( talk) 10:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
To TOM above: It's a FACT?? And your assertion makes it so, right? Jeez. Go to the wikipedia page on him if you would like to learn the truth. There are also several contemporary histories that deal with him at length. The negative image the filmakers chose to portray comes from an account written by his chief rival, containing claims and events found in no other writings and wholly dismissed today by historians. Who knows what his real character or motivation was like? The only "facts" are that he was present at the siege; offered himself as a hostage; organized the collection effort as regards ransom money; and then went to Tyre with Balian.
As has been pointed out as nauseum, the film is an historical disaster, and while it has some good scenes, some fine acting (Bloom notwithstanding), etc., is prety clealy designed to be a "Muslim good/Christian bad" vehicle, and the depiction of Heraclius was designed to fit into that mold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.90.86 ( talk) 14:04, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Losbolos ( Talk | contribs) added Category:Historically inaccurate films. Out of curiosity I went to look at Category:Historically accurate films and discovered it doesn't exist. Is that an oversite or a reflection of reality? I should probably sleep now.-- ◀Puck talk▶ 12:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
what does sibylla say to balian before they make love.
Sibylla: I’m not here with you because I’m… I’m bored or wicked. I’m here because, because in the east between one person and another, there is only light
I removed the following line:
"It is not specified whether they are simply riding off together, or whether she is leading him after Richard."
When watching the film, note they are heading in the same direction that Godfrey of Ibelin and his Knights do at the beginning of the film - toward the Village,presumably coming from the direction of Italy. Remember too, when Bailian says Sibillya must decide not to be queen for him to be with her. It is clear they will not be returning to the Holy Land. Seaphoto 22:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Not all reviews particulary attacked the movie for being perhaps too short, some of them attacked the film for either resembling to Lord of the Rings (wich was at the height of its popularity back then), for its portrayal of Muslims (the movie came at a sensitive time, War of Iraq was in peak and Muslims were depicted as a whole as mysogenist terrorists) and for its resemblance to Gladiator (in both cinematography and story, although the DC makes clear that both movies are different, at least in story).
Does anyone else notice that everytime the director's cut is mentioned in this article, it's praised as being one of the greatest films of all time? One person even said it was on par with Lawrence of Arabia. Even if there was a link to a reviewer saying that, this film is pretty much forgotten.-- Freepablo 16:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is filled with an absurd level of bias in favor of the film. I came here just for some background info on the film after seeing it one night on HBO, not an article written by some fanboy of the film. A more neutral article is needed here.- 24.186.220.44 04:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I would say the entire article is filled with an absurd amount of nonsense on ALL levels. It states in the introduction that this film is 'a heavily fictionalised portrayal', and then under critical response we have paragraph after paragraph citing historians' opinions about it being fictional-- gee, you think? Is it intended to be a fictional film? It is? Okay, let's start with that. Now what's it about? How was it conceived? Who does the cast consist of? What is the home media specifications? What did major film reviewers say about it? Ad nauseam. It's not difficult to write a descriptive article-- it's difficult writing it when the article reads like a prescription telling you how to think of it, and then, considering the nature of Wikipedia, it turns into a debate forum. An example is below; the commenter speaks about Orlando Bloom being a bad actor-- what does that have to do with the film itself? That's prescription, that's not description. Ychennay's comment is much more descriptively based-- he asks for the particulars of the director cuts' DVD, not a review of it's content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.105.184.93 ( talk) 15:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I used to think he was a fine actor, and he doesn't seem pompous or conceited, but man, what a bad character body. - Augustulus
Well, I wouldn't be that vile. But I think he's more pretty than actually a good storyteller. Augustulus 00:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The article clearly states that his performance was despised in the U.S. but it also point out that he received a best european actor award. Personnaly, I think he did quite well. Not as well as in LOTR but he didn't disappoint me Mitch1981 ( talk) 18:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
One of the film's dramatic issues is what it means to "be good". Bloom is put in situations where he has to make major moral decisions, yet we do not see much in the way of inner struggle. It is, in my view, a flat, uninvolving performance, devoid of any sense we're seeing a real human being with real problems. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 14:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I was amazed on reading this fact in the "see also" section. I had to grab the soundtrack and listen to it again and sure enough the first stanza of this song clearly audible. The music in this film is much more engaging and accurate to the time period, as well as more emotional, than Gladiator. Knight45 16:59 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Quick note to everyone: Alexander Siddig's character is named Imad, and is based on Saladin's biographer. Wiki-newbie 18:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
i like Kingdom of Heaven, but until the movie gets some recognition (such as time, or a wide array of websites giving a serious praise), the article cannot stay as it is right now, too much unsourced info for an article that tries to defend the movie.
The article says that Heraclius was unnamed in the film, however, just before he walks off to meet Saladin, Balian says, "You've taught me a lot about religion, Heraclius." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.17.119.175 ( talk) 22:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Seeing as how this is probably the section of the article most fraught with POV peril, could some sources be cited for the assertions made here? Generally speaking it seems to be accurate to me (a well-educated layman), but none of the information is currently verifiable. I think that care needs to be taken when establishing what the prevailing theology of the time was (which might not necessarily comport with prevailing contemporary theology). AFAIK, even theologians and historians today have difficulty pining down exactly what Catholics thought 900 years ago; the level of confidence with which statements are made here seems to exceed their epistemological basis. In any case, sources are needed. 67.181.215.47 07:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC) Improved now, thanks to editing from an anon. 67.181.215.47 10:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it might be good to add a section devoted strictly to flaws in the character portrayals in the film. The Historical Accuracy section is very long and if we exported some of that info into a new category, it would clean things up a bit. I made a write-up pertaining to character depictions in the film, but the Historical Accuracy section is long enough as it is. Any thoughts? JamesMcCloud129 05:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The "historical accuracy" section is itself guilty of conveying some inaccurate impressions! It says that Patriarch (Archbishop of Jersualem) Heraclius is "innacurately portrayed as a coward" and tells us Yes, Saladin did allow Balian to leave and the Crusader population to ransom themselves, but lots of 'em who couldn't pay up were sold into slavery. Not false exactly, but misleading. It would normally be the job of the richer sections of the Crusader population, and especially their Church, to raise the ransom for the poorer folk. But it's a fact that Heraclius and others were stingy on that point, and were more interested in leaving with their loot than using it to redeem the poor. Many of Saladin's officers (and I'm not making this up) were so disgusted by the stinginess of rich churchmen like Heraclius that they contributed their own money to redeem many of the poor folk!
I think also that readers would be interested in knowing that the film was QUITE accurate in the matter of the negotiations between Balian and Saladin after the battle of Hattim: Saladin agreed to let Balian go free, and gave him safe passage to Jerusalem, in return for a promise to retire from the conflict, but when Balian reached Jerusalem the Crusader inhabitants begged him to command the defense, which he did, apologizing to Saladin but with the excuse that his duty to his people took precedence over his promise to Saladin. Saladin understood and freed him from his promise. Then after the surrender, he not only gave Balian and his wife Maria Comnena safe conduct to Tyre, he provided them with an armed escort. -- Nobody should try to deny that Saladin was every bit the class act he's portrayed in the film as being. Tom 129.93.17.135 00:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I think a separate article for the soundtrack would be good... the article is pretty long already and there is enough content and information IMO about the soundtrack to warrant its own article. What do you guys think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ychennay ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
In the final scene of the film, Balian tells the crusaders to "Go east to where the men speak Italian," however, in 1189, the year of King Richard's Crusade, Italian was still hundreds of years away from standardization as a language, and the Tuscan dialect it would be based on was not spoken in any region along the crusade route. -- NEMT 17:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
This film is not historically accurate. That doesn't concern me. It is a work of fiction, not a documentary. However it does represent Christianity and the Crusaders in a negative light, and shows the Moslems as enlightened and more civilised. This is wrong. Do not forget that the Crusaders were not invading Moslem land, they were trying to free Christian land from recent Moslem occupation. And we all know that Christianity, for all its faults, is a more compassionate and less violent religion than Islam. Finally, who can seriously argue that Moslems are more progressive and civilised than Christians? 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 08:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The link takes you to Phillips the actor instead of the Phillips the scholar.
In the article it says His death is depicted as an act of euthanasia by his mother, using poison. To my understanding, this is not correct. Sibylla clearly uses acid, which she drips in the boy’s ear. (Because he is a leper, he does not feel pain at this moment.) It would also be illogical to use poison and pour it in the ear rather than put it in a drink. -- 172.158.227.206 10:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a precedent for putting poison in an ear - see Shakespeare's 'Hamlet' and the play within the play —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.11.77.197 ( talk) 14:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Sources
Setton, Kenneth Meyer (Ed.) (1955-1962) A History of the Crusades. Two volumes. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press. Second edition (1969-1989) Six volumes. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press.
Prawer, Joshua (1972) The Crusaders’ kingdom: European colonialism in the Middle Ages. New York: Praeger. New edition (2001) London: Phoenix.
Ellenblum, Ronnie (2007) Crusader Castles and Modern Histories. Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press.
-- Groucho ( talk) 12:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed that the Patriach of Jerusalem does invite Tiberias by his title "Count of Tiberias" so the name Tiberias was only a abreviation of his full title —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.143.254 ( talk) 18:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Did Kevin McKidd's character perish in the storm when Bailian set out from Messina? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.18.240 ( talk) 03:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The following quote is wrong and unfounded:
During one scene in the movie, shortly before Hattin, three soldiers referred to as "Templars" attack Balian; however, they clearly wear the white surcoats with black crosses of Teutonic Knights, rather than the white and red of the Knights Templar. The Teutonic Knights were not a military order until 1198.
The claim where it says that knights in White surcoats and Black crosses is false, as if I remember rightly, which I'm sure I do, the knights who attacked Balian had Black surcoats and a White cross, clearly Hospitallers, rather than the non existent Teutons that the sentence claims appear in the movie. I'll find a picture and a source for it later, but it's not like the statements source is useful unless we're going into the Teutonic Order in depth. <_<
Imperator
Talk
17:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a bunch. Whoever wrote them up seems to have just thrown words onto the article without any real subject in mind. It goes on and on about how some critics have said "THIS IS SUPER BAD FOR CHRISTIAN/MUSLIM RELATIONS" without any explanation at all of HOW it would affect them. A mention is made of one critic stating it is "Osama Bin Laden's version of the Crusades".
Perhaps the critic did not realize that it was the Christians who were the aggressors in the Crusades?
Any bias I see in this film is so minimal as to be not even worth mentioning; -Of all the major Muslim and Christian characters, I can name two Muslim characters who are portrayed as good and chivalrous (Salah ad-Din, Siddig's character) and one who is neutral (the one who complained about Salah ad-Din's strategy). I can only name three Christian characters who are portrayed as wicked and evil (Guy de Lusignon, Reynald de Chatillon, the priest in France), one who is a coward, and the rest are in the same tone of goodness, virtue, and chivalry.
Considering that the Muslim characters I mentioned are pretty much the ONLY major Muslim characters, I think it's being pretty fair in portraying two of them as good men, and one of them as an average man. Especially considering that the number of good and neutral Christians portrayed include: the German and the African from Godfrey's party (Almaric and Firuz?), Godfrey himself, Balian, Sibylla, Baldwin IV, Tiberias, the Knight Hospitallar, and Kevin McKidd's character. Clearly this is more from the point of view of the Christians than the Muslims, so there would be more Christian characters.
Judging from this, I can see absolutely no evidence from the movie or its tone to imply that it is in any way "dangerous" to Arab/Western relations, or the sort of portrayal of Christians that Osama Bin Laden would agree with. Do these reviewers remember the scenes with Nasir (Siddig's character) and Balian, sparing each others lives and honorably speaking with one another? Baldwin IV and Salah ad-Din conversing with one another with immense respect? Salah ad-Din standing up a fallen cross inside a temple in Jerusalem? All of the scenes in Ibelin, in which Muslims and Christians are working and living together to bring water to the land?
I think this 'criticism' section needs a MAJOR re-vamping, with critics' opinions being clearly stated as opinions, and not taken as the overall tone of the entire section, and some solid proof of WHERE and HOW these accusations make this film some sort of anti-Christian propaganda. It's just bullshit, and it's bad for you. TM George Carlin
65.87.105.8 (
talk)
15:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be receptions in Arab world, especcially in Syria? Because, a Syrian actor, Ghassan Massoud, appears there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.5.206.236 ( talk) 13:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I saw Kingdom of Heaven for the first time yesterday (BD), and was generally impressed (though "I fought for two days with an arrow in my testicle" will not go down as one of the all-time great movie lines). The question of historical accuracy didn't seem important, because the film was obviously created, not to be historically correct, but To Make A Point. Multiple points, in fact. One of these is a discussion of what it means to be good and do good, as well as how one is to make the "right" decision when there is no obvious right or wrong. The other is that all the sides are fighting over something that simply isn't important -- at least, to anyone with a modicum of common sense and good will. Kingdom of Heaven is ultimately a condemnation of "organized religion" and the people who use "God wills it!" as an excuse for atrocities. (None of this is subtle; it's almost thrown in the audience's face, and really should be discussed in the article.) Of course, such films rarely have any effect on the thinking of the people who most need to see them. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 14:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
There also is used the Track "The Crow descends" composed by Graeme Revell from the Crow Soundtrack, when Balian is attacked by 3 (?) black fashioned Soldiers. Could be mentioned in the article.-- ClaptonDennis ( talk) 05:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Below section was tagged for needing additional references since 2008. I have removed unsourced statements from the article. Please feel free to reincorporate this material with appropriate sourcing. Doniago ( talk) 16:15, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Historical Accuracy (pre-removal of unsourced material)
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==Historical accuracy==
Orlando Bloom's character, Balian of Ibelin, was a close ally of Raymond; however, he was a mature gentleman, just a year or two younger than Raymond, and one of the most important nobles in the kingdom, not a French blacksmith. His father Barisan (which was originally his own name, modified into French as 'Balian') founded the Ibelin family in the east, and probably came from Italy. Balian and Sibylla were indeed united in the defense of Jerusalem; however, no romantic relationship existed between the two. Balian married Sibylla's stepmother Maria Comnena, Dowager Queen of Jerusalem and Lady of Nablus. The Old French Continuation of William of Tyre (the so-called Chronicle of Ernoul) claimed that Sibylla had been infatuated with Balian's older brother Baldwin of Ibelin, a widower over twice her age, but this is doubtful; instead, it seems that Raymond of Tripoli attempted a coup to marry her off to him to strengthen the position of his faction; however, this legend seems to have been behind the film's creation of a romance between Sibylla and a member of the Ibelin family. [1] The events of the siege of Jerusalem are based on the Old French Continuation of William of Tyre, a favorable account partly written by Ernoul, one of Balian's officers, and other contemporary documents. Saladin did besiege Jerusalem for almost a month, and was able to knock down a portion of the wall. In the film, Balian knighted everyone who could carry a sword, but historical accounts say he only knighted some burgesses. The exact number varies in different accounts, but it is probably less than one hundred in a city which had tens of thousands of male inhabitants and refugees. Balian personally negotiated the surrender of the city with Saladin, after threatening to destroy every building and kill the 3000–5000 Muslim inhabitants of the city. Saladin allowed Balian and his family to leave in peace, along with everyone else who could arrange to pay a ransom. King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem, who reigned from 1174 to 1185, was a leper, and his sister Sibylla did marry Guy of Lusignan. Also, Baldwin IV had a falling out with Guy before his death, and so Guy did not succeed Baldwin IV immediately. Baldwin crowned Sibylla's son from her previous marriage to William of Montferrat, five-year-old Baldwin V co-king in his own lifetime, in 1183. [2] The little boy reigned as sole king for one year, dying in 1186 at nine years of age. After her son's death, Sibylla and Guy (to whom she was devoted) garrisoned the city, and she claimed the throne. The coronation scene in the movie was, in real life, more of a shock: Sibylla had been forced to promise to divorce Guy before becoming queen, with the assurance that she would be permitted to pick her own consort. After being crowned by Patriarch Heraclius of Jerusalem (who is unnamed in the movie), she chose to crown Guy as her consort. Raymond III of Tripoli, the film's Tiberias, was not present, but was in Nablus attempting a coup, with Balian of Ibelin, to raise her half-sister (Balian's stepdaughter), princess Isabella of Jerusalem, to the throne; however, Isabella's husband, Humphrey IV of Toron, refusing to precipitate a civil war, swore allegiance to Guy. [3] Raymond of Tripoli was a cousin of Amalric I of Jerusalem, and one of the Kingdom's most powerful nobles, as well as sometime regent. He had a claim to the throne himself, but, being childless, instead tried to advance his allies the Ibelin family. He was often in conflict with Guy and Raynald, who had risen to their positions by marrying wealthy heiresses and through the king's favor. Guy and Raynald did harass Saladin's caravans, and the claim that Raynald captured Saladin's sister is based on the account given in the Old French Continuation of William of Tyre. This claim is not supported by any other accounts, and is generally believed to be false. In actuality, after Raynald's attack on one caravan, Saladin made sure that the next one, in which his sister was traveling, was properly guarded: the lady came to no harm. [1] The discord between the rival factions in the kingdom gave Saladin the opportunity to pursue his long-term goal of conquering it. The kingdom's army was defeated at the Battle of Hattin, partly due to the conflict between Guy and Raymond. As already stated, the battle itself is not shown in the movie, but its aftermath is depicted. The Muslims captured Guy and Raynald, and according to al-Safadi in al-Wafi bi'l-wafayat, executed Raynald after he drank from the goblet offered to Guy, as the sultan had once made a promise never to give anything to Raynald. Guy was imprisoned, but later freed. He attempted to retain the kingship even after the deaths of Sibylla and their daughters during his siege of Acre in 1190, but lost in an election to Conrad of Montferrat in 1192. Richard I of England, his only supporter, sold him the lordship of Cyprus, where he died c. 1194. There was a Haute Cour, a "high court", a sort of medieval parliament, in which Jeremy Irons' character Tiberias is seen arguing with Guy for or against war, in front of Baldwin IV as the final judge. The movie alludes to the Battle of Montgisard in 1177, in which 16-year-old Baldwin IV defeated Saladin, with Saladin narrowly escaping. The Knights Hospitaller and Knights Templar were the most enthusiastic about fighting Saladin and the Muslims. They were monastic military orders, committed to celibacy. Neither Guy nor Raynald was a Templar, as the movie implies by costuming them both in Templar surcoats: they were secular nobles with wives and families, simply supported by the Templars. The "uneasy truce" referred to in the closing scene refers to the Treaty of Ramla, negotiated, with Balian's help, at the end of the Third Crusade. The Third Crusade is alluded to at the end of the movie, when Richard I of England visits Balian in France. Balian, of course, was not from France and did not return there with Sibylla; she and her two daughters died of fever in camp during the siege of Acre. Conrad of Montferrat had denied her and Guy entry to the remaining stronghold of Tyre, and thus Guy was attempting to take another city for himself. Balian's relations with Richard were far from amicable, because he supported Conrad against Richard's vassal Guy. He and his wife Maria arranged her daughter Isabella's forcible divorce from Humphrey of Toron so she could marry Conrad. Ambroise, who wrote a poetic account of the crusade, called Balian "more false than a goblin" and said he "should be hunted with dogs". [4] The anonymous author of the Itinerarium Peregrinorum et Gesta Regis Ricardi wrote that Balian was a member of a "council of consummate iniquity", and described him as cruel, fickle, and faithless, and accused him of taking bribes from Conrad. The young Balian of the movie thus did not exist in reality. The historical Balian had descendants by Maria Comnena. Thanks to their close relationship to Sibylla's half-sister and successor, Maria's daughter Queen Isabella (not shown in the movie), the Ibelins became the most powerful noble family in the rump Kingdom of Jerusalem as well as in Cyprus in the thirteenth century. Most notably, Maria and Balian's son John, the Lord of Beirut, was a dominant force in the politics of Outremer for the first third of the thirteenth century. Near the end of the film and after Saladin has entered the city; he is seen watching as a crescent ornament is being raised on top of a building presumably a mosque. This is an anachronism as at that time mosques did not bear any kind of symbols on the minarets. The crescent was introduced many centuries later with the Turkish Ottoman Empire. An episode of The History Channel's series History vs. Hollywood analyzed the historical accuracy of the film. This program and a Movie Real (a series by A&E Network) episode about Kingdom of Heaven were both included on the DVD version of the movie. |
It's obvious how the knights templar were actually negotiators and helpers to other people to finding a simple journey or destination, as well with secrets, other than the film showing them as men of killing innocent blood. The real Templars, although, most of them were more like the Hospitallers in the film, helping Balian of Ibelin and keeping the kingdom and secrets of the world safe.-- 74.34.86.120 ( talk) 17:08, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
The film shows Saladin executing Raynald for drinking water without permission but sparing Guy because "Kings do not kill Kings". That tallies with the story as known. Before the Siege of Jerusalem Guy is shown being paraded in front of the laughing Muslim army, facing backwards on a donkey, in his underpants. Does this have any known basis in the records? Paulturtle ( talk) 14:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Cheers. Thought so. Perhaps not very plausible either, as senior officials in most eras like to preserve the dignity due to rank, even if the man who holds it is a fool. But who knows. Paulturtle ( talk) 23:59, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
This movie was the subject of a well-publicised plagiarism row and I'm surprised to see no mention of it. Don't get me wrong, I have no axe to grind here, but I was just listening to a talk by historian James Reston Jr, who claims his history of the crusades is the true source of the story and it's clear that it was quite well covered in the press and should be mentioned - if it legally can be (there was no actual legal suit) - briefly.
Here's one link
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2005-04-28-kingdom-plagiarized_x.htm?csp=34
I don't have the skills to put it in myself.
THe source for all this is,
History and Movies: An Historian Writes a Screenplay - a talk on the LIbrary of Congress YouTube channel.
http://www.loc.gov/today/cyberlc/feature_wdesc.php?rec=5216
82.6.141.117 ( talk) 15:42, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
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