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Do we have even a SINGLE reference that states that kimchi is only fermented or that unfermented kimchi varieties do not exist? Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 03:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Correct, we already have consensus. This consensus is supported by reliable sources. I really wonder why Hkwon is putting everyone through so much trouble over a minor issue. Is this something to do with a desire to state that Japanese kimchi is not actually kimchi? or is he just trying to be disruptive by pushing such a minor point. As far as I am concerned, this issue is resolved - Hkwon is just being disruptive and perhaps deserves a topic ban for causing this disruption and showing such a lack of respect for wikipedia, wikipedia editors and rules regarding consensus. [[User:Sennen goroshi|カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! 또라이 (talk) 04:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I have formally requested again the help of the Mediation Cabal. The case can be found at the same place, Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-07-18/Kimchi. I am going to go now and reframe the discussion because I'm pretty sure we're at a slightly different point than we were when Hkwon opened the case. I strongly urge all participants here to join the discussion over there; hopefully the Cabal and Cabalist User:Wgfinley can help us work through this. Wgfinley has stated that the case is still open, merely waiting the input of other people. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I had hoped for another RFC to get more neutral editors involved, but I don't mind going to a mediation. Cydevil38 ( talk) 10:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I was actually think to ask that at mediation. I'll see what Wgfinley thinks, whether, in his/her experience mediating, another RfC will help. Qwyrxian ( talk) 12:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Is the quality of "being fermented" fundamental to kimchi, such that the lead should read something like, "Kimchi is a traditional fermented Korean dish...Kimchi can also refer to unfermented dishes....." or is fermentation a common but not fundamental aspect of kimchi, and thus the lead should read something like, "Kimchi is a traditional Korean dish....Both fermented and unfermented varieties exist, although fermented varieties are more common."? Qwyrxian ( talk) 04:06, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
This may fall under "Fools rush in where fools have been before", but why isn't "Korean" bluelinked in the first occurence of the lede? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 05:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I have attempted to collect all of the sentences listed so far, along with a few additional ones I added now. If I missed any, or if you have any new suggestions, please post them below and I’ll add them to the list. I did copy-edit a few of them.
We have one set of sentences (Group A), all of which start with “Kimchi is a ‘’’traditional Korean dish made’’’ from vegetables and various seasonings,” (emphasis added to show distinction from B) followed by:
We have a second set of sentences (Group B), all of which start with “Kimchi is a ‘’’traditional Korean fermented dish’’’ of vegetables and various seasonings,” (emphasis added to show distinction from A) followed by:
(add more sentences here that I missed or you have now created); I’ll sort them into one of the above groups or add additional groups as needed. Qwyrxian ( talk) 02:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Please comment on the above sentences. Most importantly, please provide a complete list of all sentences that you are comfortable with. If you strongly identify overall with one group versus another, please try to include at least 1 sentence from the opposite group that you feel comfortable with, if at all possible. At this point, I really think we have to find the “best fit,” instead of just arguing forever about the two (general) solutions being absolutely incompatible. Qwyrxian ( talk) 02:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that we can't come to an agreement. How about taking this to the RFC again, hoping that more neutral editors will be involved? Cydevil38 ( talk) 04:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm moving this back here out of the archives as it's about to become relevant again. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:53, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
It's been two weeks since the last time anyone opposed to "fermented" in the main definition spoke up. It's been 10 days since the new RfC opened, and, so far, only one other editor has responded, and that editor responded in support of defining kimchi as an fundamental part of the definition. Those editors opposed to including the word "fermented" in the definition have declined to participate in mediation. In terms of "votes," we have 2 involved editors in favor of "fermented", 2 uninvolved editors in favor of "fermented," and 2 involved editors oppose "fermented." While WP:CONSENSUS is not explicitly defined, and rejects the idea that it's based strictly on a majority, at the point, since those opposed have taken no further steps towards working through the problem via mediation, I think we have to go with the majority opinion. Looking above, sentence B3 had the most overall support from those who voted. As such, I propose that we change the first two sentences of the lead to say:
If anyone opposes this change, please speak up now. If you do oppose the change, please recommend what we should do now in order to move past dispute and towards consensus. If I hear nothing in the next (approximately) 2 days, I'm moving on this.
One final question--should "fermented" be wikilinked to fermentation (food)? Qwyrxian ( talk) 08:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'd humbly like to request an explanation as to why you're reverting against the consensus developed above. As you may recall, we questioned for a while whether or not fermentation is an "elemental" part of the definition of kimchi. Two involved editors (myself and Cydevil38), two uninvolved editors (Martin Hogbin and Anna Frodesiak), and one past editor (Hkwon) agreed that the inclusion of fermented in the primary definition was necessary. Two involved editors (Sennen Goroshi and Melonbarmonster2) argued that it is not. After opening an RfC and waiting for 2 weeks with no response from SG or Mb2, I moved forward with the closest thing to a consensus that we had. Note that this decision was a compromise (for example, Cy38 wanted to have some indication that the definition has changed over time, while Hkwon wanted no mention of unfermented kimchi at all). At this point, it seems to me that the burden lies on Mb2, SG, or another editor if you want to change the wording to some other version. I request that you attempt to make such an explanation here, or that you stop edit warring to make the page reflect a non-consensus wording. Qwyrxian ( talk) 03:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello!
I saw your case in the MedCabal and thought about helping out but then I thought maybe you just need some fresh eyes on this.
I've read all the comments made on the talk page about this and did some research of my own, I hope I can help you guys resolve this issue.
First of all, I would kindly ask everyone to remain civil and to be cool. I realize that a lot of people have very strong opinions about the whole Kimchi/Kimuchi thing. I ask you to set aside your feelings and look at this from a NPOV. Korea and Japan have a lot of rivalry and this issue has been the subject of much controversy.
Here's what we can all agree on:
Now, as an encyclopedia, it is our job to leave our feelings aside and simply state all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.
What things are and are not and how we define them is a job for
people who like to argue.
Consider the following:
Kimchi is a traditional Korean dish. In Korea, it is fermented. The inexpensive Japanese variant (which Koreans consider "fake") is not fermented.
Therefore, I propose the following lead: Kimchi (...) is a traditional Korean dish, made of vegetables with varied seasonings. There are hundreds of varieties of Kimchi (...)
Then make a new section which talks about both Japanese and Korean Kimchi, the difference and the controversy that followed. I believe you can find many references for this. Whether it is, by definition, fermented, is not actually that important.
Please tell me if you have any problems with this lead, I am only here to help.–
sampi (
talk•
contrib•
email)
21:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
LOL. This is why wikipedia is a joke sometimes. Users with no knowledge whatsoever on the topic making outlandish claims based on dubious "references" to force and justify their own edits not out of any concern about the quality of the article but out of ego. Funny thing is that only Koreans commonly eat fermented kimchi. Most of the kimchi served in restaurants is the unfermented gutjuri variety that's made on spot on weekly, daily basis. Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 04:52, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
The information that User:Melonbarmonster2 was, in fact, cited to a primary source. Note that, since this is a medical claim, the governing guideline is WP:MEDRS. Note that, per that page, "A primary source in medicine is one in which the authors directly participated in the research or documented their personal experiences. They examined the patients, injected the rats, filled the test tubes, or at least supervised those who did. Many, but not all, papers published in medical journals are primary sources for facts about the research and discoveries made." In general, we should only site medical claims if they appear in reliable secondary sources, like literature reviews and systematic reviews. Without such evidence, this claim probably doesn't belong in the article. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
MB, could you explain why you are reverting the references to http://www1.american.edu/ted/kimchi.htm and http://theconsciouslife.com/top-probiotic-foods.htm? They look to be good quality references. Thank you! jmcw ( talk) 08:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello all. Those references were removed per archived discussion regarding the use the American U Ted sources and COdex. Simply they're self-published references. Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 02:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Fermentation_(biochemistry) and Pickling illustrate the problem involved in the definition of Fermentation (food).
It would appear that 'fermentation' is used in-accurately but commonly to describe two quite different processes. How do we sort this out in the kimchi article and the other food articles? jmcw ( talk) 07:57, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
So does kimchi grow/ferment on trees, or could someone with the perspicacity to write an outline first come up with a little paragraph on preparation techniques? Oh yeah, preparation! Big picture! Travel brochure listing not sufficient! Duh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.28.246 ( talk) 23:24, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
The article is completely vague about what kind of fermentation method is used, is it lacto-fermentation or something different? How long does it ferment, at what temperature, do the kimchi pots have a water seal, etc.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chimel31 ( talk • contribs) 23:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not an expert in Food and Nutirition, but I know, by a common sense as a Korean, that Kimchi is primarily fermented by Lactobacillus, meaning the fermentation of Kimchi is lactic acid fermentation. One of the main health benefit of kimchi is its lactic acid bacteria which helps digestion and decomposition of sugar. I will present several dozens of reliable food and nutrition articles and book chapters which prove beneficial lactic acid bacteria in Kimchi if necessary. If you don't believe me, just Google search "lactic acid bacteria" and "kimchi". There have been internationally hundreds of academic articles on lactic acid characteristics of kimchi in Food and Nutrition perspectives. Hkwon ( talk) 11:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
What point is a section on "nutritional value" if it doesn't mention SALT?! I think we can all stipulate that veggies, garlic, onions and ginger are good for you - the question is whether it's worth all that SODIUM present!
Last I heard, Koreans have the highest rate of STOMACH CANCER in the world -- which i assume is directly related to their heavy intake of PICKLES. I'd be curious to know whether they have an elevated rate of heart attacks, strokes, hardening of the arteries, etc. etc., sodium-related problems.
This should be the MAIN FOCUS of any "nutritional value" section. There is no "issue" with kimchi other than the SALT content. 209.172.25.121 ( talk) 04:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
What is 막김치 (mak kimchi)? 204.210.240.163 ( talk) 20:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
The usage of Kimchi ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:KIMCHI -- 65.94.171.206 ( talk) 00:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
How does it compare to sauerkraut? That could be a point of reference. CountMacula ( talk) 01:50, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The article (and sources 19 and 20) claim that Kimchi is rich in vitamin B1 and B2, among nutrients. However, these sources do not seem unbiased, and a quick cross-reference between the table with nutritional facts and their RDA seems to contradict that claim. For example, if 100g of kimchi has 0.03mg vit. B1, and the RDA for an adult male and average intake is 1.1mg and2 mg respectively, that means you'd need to eat around 3kg of kimchi to get the minimum amount of B1, and 6kg to get a 'regular' amount. The other nutrients listed seem equally dubious. 2A02:1811:D1D:A500:4D80:4615:1F2F:82C4 ( talk) 20:14, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
For balance, I've added information about kimchi's links with stomach cancer.
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A quick question, should we even discuss the number of varieties as in the current ref stating that there 200+ varieties? There are limitless varieties, any region, weather time place etc etc can influence how its made. Examples include the raw oyster variety, beef broth fish broth etc etc. Why not just state that the type of kimchi is dependent on external factors as opposed to posting an arbitrary article about pickles tell us its 200+? Coal town guy ( talk) 14:41, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352618115000451
This is a counter to the idea that Kimchi was always white radish Kimchi. It's interesting and may be useful to the article.-- KimYunmi ( talk) 18:21, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Hello Fellow Wikipedia editors, On behalf of my fellow student team enrolled in an introductory food science course at UBC, we would like to use our newly learned food science knowledge to enhance this article on Kimchi. In particular, we are interested in exploring and contributing to information on the chemical process of fermentation of kimchi, the variations of kimchi around the world, and the food regulations surrounding kimchi in Canada. We will continue to post our outlines and drafts on this sandbox /info/en/?search=User:Jcookie98/sandbox. We welcome all comments and feedback. We look forward to contributing to Wikipedia via this course assignment. Marina Trinca Colonel, Jaedon Cooke, Anita Suen, Vijay Aditya.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Marinacolonel ( talk • contribs) 05:52, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:53, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
Recent edits inserted a {{ missing information}} template into the Nutrition and health section. However the allegedly missing information, regarding vitamins B12 and K, seems irrelevant. Both are covered in the several charts and tables: B12 seemed not majorly important relative to recommended daily amounts, and K was not detected. Suggest the template be removed, if somebody has reliable sourcing for this topic it could be added. -- M.boli ( talk) 20:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
This subsection is entirely editorial without proper references. Use of primary sources to make claims about etymology is disruptive, questionable and violates WP:OR and WP:SYN: incorrect information regarding pronunciation of etymological terms, square blocks in place of Korean letters, etc. Unless, proper references can be provided, unreferenced claims should be removed. E.g. "The aspirated first consonant of timchai became unaspirated in dimchɑi, then underwent palatalization in jimchɑi. The word then became jimchui with the loss of the vowel ɑ (ㆍ) in Korean language, then Kimchi, with the depalatalized word-initial consonant. In Modern Korean, the hanja characters 沈菜 are pronounced chimchai (침채), and are not used to refer to kimchi, or anything else." Where is the reference for this statement? Also where did 'chai' come from. That's a word, sound that doesn't exist in Korean language "채" is pronounced che or chae. What is "chui" What Korean letter is that supposed to be??? This entire section is like this. Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 17:50, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
90.205.253.243 made a series of edits today, in particular adding a section "Dispute between China and South Korea over the origin of kimchi" with a series of edits. It wasn't clear to me that a dispute actually exists.
For these reasons, I'm removing the section. SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 01:19, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Your concern seems to be over the wording used by the journalists of the BBC and the Guardian, not the credibility of the sources. I doubt this warrants the deletion of the whole section. After all, there is indeed an ongoing dispute between Chinese and South Korean over the origin of Kimchi, and this was even reported in the Chinese state-owned media South China Morning Post. All the sources I have included came from credible news organisations (the BBC, the Guardian, the New York Times etc.). South Korean indeed expressed their dismay strongly on social media and other media outlets. The removal of this whole section is inadequate as it shows an attempt to delete and/or ignore history . Therefore I have undone the change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:D3:71C:E00:4050:8B66:DE32:CA67 ( talk) 12:31, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
A spat is raging this week over a Chinese state tabloid’s claim that China had “led” the development of an international standard for paocai, or pickled vegetables. In South Korea, the claim was seen as misleading because in the Chinese language, paocai also refers to kimchi — the fermented cabbage dish that plays an integral role in Korean cuisine.
Because in the Chinese language, paocai can also refer to kimchi[99], numerous outlets reported the Global Times as claiming "an international standard for the kimchi industry led by China"; an online backlash then emerged over whether China had claimed kimchi as its own.
South Koreans are angry about kimchi being claimed as a Chinese dish. But the question is, did Chinese state media actually claim kimchi as a Chinese dish? Based on the differences between the NYT and the BBC translations, it is not clear to me that the answer is yes. Therefore once again, both translations should be included, and the reader can decide for themselves. That is WP:NPOV. SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 13:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
I keep talking about "translation" because the BBC and the New York Times quote the Global Times but with different wording. As I wrote,
Do you see that both the BBC and the New York Times referred to those as quotes ("")? That means to them, they believed they were copying exactly what the Global Times said, verbatim, without change. But the BBC and the New York Times used different wording:
So either these are different sentences within the same Global Times article, or they are different translations of the same sentence within the Global Times article.
If you believe that translation has nothing to do with this dispute, then please provide the original Global Times article so we can verify that the original article referred to "an international standard for the kimchi industry led by China" in English. SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 15:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kimchi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Pimang ( talk) 00:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kimchi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Korean public was shocked by the numbers of imported and exported kimchi in the previous year 2017, the total amount of import is 275,631 tons, in which 99 percent of it from China, while only exported 24,311 tons to overseas. This information was published by the Korean Customs Service. [1]
References
This is a delicate subject, but several studies have found a direct correlation between high consumptions of kimchi and various cancers, notably stomach and colon. ROK has amongst the highest stats for these cancers globally. Worth a mention? Hanoi Road ( talk) 16:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Change Etymology for Kimchi
Kimchi
As'chimchae 침채 (沈菜)' changed to chimchae → dimchae → kimchae → kimchi over the years, it became kimchi. In the Book Naehun 내훈 (內訓), "Juh 저 (菹)" is "Dim Chae (딤채)". Naehun 내훈 (內訓) is written by Insoo (인수대비) birth mother of King Seongjong in the 6th year of King Seongjong in the Joseon Dynasty (1475) to educate women.
In addition, in the 12th year of King Seongjong (1481), Dusieonhae 두시언해 (杜時諺解) translated “Juh 저” into “Dihi 디히”.
It is said that “Dim (딤) ” is palatally converted into “kim (김) ” or “kimchi (김치)” through “jim (짐) ” . The palatalization refers to a phenomenon that changes from'Di→Ji→Ki'. In the Hongja-hyundai-ok edition (홍자현대옥편), "Juh (저)" is translated into kimchi (김치).
Some scholars says that "Dihi (디히)" is a pure Korean word for kimchi. "Dihi" has changed to "ji" and is still used today.
https://www.kimchimuseum.com/ Bona chung ( talk) 04:56, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Do we have even a SINGLE reference that states that kimchi is only fermented or that unfermented kimchi varieties do not exist? Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 03:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Correct, we already have consensus. This consensus is supported by reliable sources. I really wonder why Hkwon is putting everyone through so much trouble over a minor issue. Is this something to do with a desire to state that Japanese kimchi is not actually kimchi? or is he just trying to be disruptive by pushing such a minor point. As far as I am concerned, this issue is resolved - Hkwon is just being disruptive and perhaps deserves a topic ban for causing this disruption and showing such a lack of respect for wikipedia, wikipedia editors and rules regarding consensus. [[User:Sennen goroshi|カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! 또라이 (talk) 04:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I have formally requested again the help of the Mediation Cabal. The case can be found at the same place, Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-07-18/Kimchi. I am going to go now and reframe the discussion because I'm pretty sure we're at a slightly different point than we were when Hkwon opened the case. I strongly urge all participants here to join the discussion over there; hopefully the Cabal and Cabalist User:Wgfinley can help us work through this. Wgfinley has stated that the case is still open, merely waiting the input of other people. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I had hoped for another RFC to get more neutral editors involved, but I don't mind going to a mediation. Cydevil38 ( talk) 10:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I was actually think to ask that at mediation. I'll see what Wgfinley thinks, whether, in his/her experience mediating, another RfC will help. Qwyrxian ( talk) 12:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Is the quality of "being fermented" fundamental to kimchi, such that the lead should read something like, "Kimchi is a traditional fermented Korean dish...Kimchi can also refer to unfermented dishes....." or is fermentation a common but not fundamental aspect of kimchi, and thus the lead should read something like, "Kimchi is a traditional Korean dish....Both fermented and unfermented varieties exist, although fermented varieties are more common."? Qwyrxian ( talk) 04:06, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
This may fall under "Fools rush in where fools have been before", but why isn't "Korean" bluelinked in the first occurence of the lede? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 05:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I have attempted to collect all of the sentences listed so far, along with a few additional ones I added now. If I missed any, or if you have any new suggestions, please post them below and I’ll add them to the list. I did copy-edit a few of them.
We have one set of sentences (Group A), all of which start with “Kimchi is a ‘’’traditional Korean dish made’’’ from vegetables and various seasonings,” (emphasis added to show distinction from B) followed by:
We have a second set of sentences (Group B), all of which start with “Kimchi is a ‘’’traditional Korean fermented dish’’’ of vegetables and various seasonings,” (emphasis added to show distinction from A) followed by:
(add more sentences here that I missed or you have now created); I’ll sort them into one of the above groups or add additional groups as needed. Qwyrxian ( talk) 02:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Please comment on the above sentences. Most importantly, please provide a complete list of all sentences that you are comfortable with. If you strongly identify overall with one group versus another, please try to include at least 1 sentence from the opposite group that you feel comfortable with, if at all possible. At this point, I really think we have to find the “best fit,” instead of just arguing forever about the two (general) solutions being absolutely incompatible. Qwyrxian ( talk) 02:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that we can't come to an agreement. How about taking this to the RFC again, hoping that more neutral editors will be involved? Cydevil38 ( talk) 04:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm moving this back here out of the archives as it's about to become relevant again. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:53, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
It's been two weeks since the last time anyone opposed to "fermented" in the main definition spoke up. It's been 10 days since the new RfC opened, and, so far, only one other editor has responded, and that editor responded in support of defining kimchi as an fundamental part of the definition. Those editors opposed to including the word "fermented" in the definition have declined to participate in mediation. In terms of "votes," we have 2 involved editors in favor of "fermented", 2 uninvolved editors in favor of "fermented," and 2 involved editors oppose "fermented." While WP:CONSENSUS is not explicitly defined, and rejects the idea that it's based strictly on a majority, at the point, since those opposed have taken no further steps towards working through the problem via mediation, I think we have to go with the majority opinion. Looking above, sentence B3 had the most overall support from those who voted. As such, I propose that we change the first two sentences of the lead to say:
If anyone opposes this change, please speak up now. If you do oppose the change, please recommend what we should do now in order to move past dispute and towards consensus. If I hear nothing in the next (approximately) 2 days, I'm moving on this.
One final question--should "fermented" be wikilinked to fermentation (food)? Qwyrxian ( talk) 08:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'd humbly like to request an explanation as to why you're reverting against the consensus developed above. As you may recall, we questioned for a while whether or not fermentation is an "elemental" part of the definition of kimchi. Two involved editors (myself and Cydevil38), two uninvolved editors (Martin Hogbin and Anna Frodesiak), and one past editor (Hkwon) agreed that the inclusion of fermented in the primary definition was necessary. Two involved editors (Sennen Goroshi and Melonbarmonster2) argued that it is not. After opening an RfC and waiting for 2 weeks with no response from SG or Mb2, I moved forward with the closest thing to a consensus that we had. Note that this decision was a compromise (for example, Cy38 wanted to have some indication that the definition has changed over time, while Hkwon wanted no mention of unfermented kimchi at all). At this point, it seems to me that the burden lies on Mb2, SG, or another editor if you want to change the wording to some other version. I request that you attempt to make such an explanation here, or that you stop edit warring to make the page reflect a non-consensus wording. Qwyrxian ( talk) 03:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello!
I saw your case in the MedCabal and thought about helping out but then I thought maybe you just need some fresh eyes on this.
I've read all the comments made on the talk page about this and did some research of my own, I hope I can help you guys resolve this issue.
First of all, I would kindly ask everyone to remain civil and to be cool. I realize that a lot of people have very strong opinions about the whole Kimchi/Kimuchi thing. I ask you to set aside your feelings and look at this from a NPOV. Korea and Japan have a lot of rivalry and this issue has been the subject of much controversy.
Here's what we can all agree on:
Now, as an encyclopedia, it is our job to leave our feelings aside and simply state all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.
What things are and are not and how we define them is a job for
people who like to argue.
Consider the following:
Kimchi is a traditional Korean dish. In Korea, it is fermented. The inexpensive Japanese variant (which Koreans consider "fake") is not fermented.
Therefore, I propose the following lead: Kimchi (...) is a traditional Korean dish, made of vegetables with varied seasonings. There are hundreds of varieties of Kimchi (...)
Then make a new section which talks about both Japanese and Korean Kimchi, the difference and the controversy that followed. I believe you can find many references for this. Whether it is, by definition, fermented, is not actually that important.
Please tell me if you have any problems with this lead, I am only here to help.–
sampi (
talk•
contrib•
email)
21:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
LOL. This is why wikipedia is a joke sometimes. Users with no knowledge whatsoever on the topic making outlandish claims based on dubious "references" to force and justify their own edits not out of any concern about the quality of the article but out of ego. Funny thing is that only Koreans commonly eat fermented kimchi. Most of the kimchi served in restaurants is the unfermented gutjuri variety that's made on spot on weekly, daily basis. Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 04:52, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
The information that User:Melonbarmonster2 was, in fact, cited to a primary source. Note that, since this is a medical claim, the governing guideline is WP:MEDRS. Note that, per that page, "A primary source in medicine is one in which the authors directly participated in the research or documented their personal experiences. They examined the patients, injected the rats, filled the test tubes, or at least supervised those who did. Many, but not all, papers published in medical journals are primary sources for facts about the research and discoveries made." In general, we should only site medical claims if they appear in reliable secondary sources, like literature reviews and systematic reviews. Without such evidence, this claim probably doesn't belong in the article. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
MB, could you explain why you are reverting the references to http://www1.american.edu/ted/kimchi.htm and http://theconsciouslife.com/top-probiotic-foods.htm? They look to be good quality references. Thank you! jmcw ( talk) 08:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello all. Those references were removed per archived discussion regarding the use the American U Ted sources and COdex. Simply they're self-published references. Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 02:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Fermentation_(biochemistry) and Pickling illustrate the problem involved in the definition of Fermentation (food).
It would appear that 'fermentation' is used in-accurately but commonly to describe two quite different processes. How do we sort this out in the kimchi article and the other food articles? jmcw ( talk) 07:57, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
So does kimchi grow/ferment on trees, or could someone with the perspicacity to write an outline first come up with a little paragraph on preparation techniques? Oh yeah, preparation! Big picture! Travel brochure listing not sufficient! Duh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.28.246 ( talk) 23:24, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
The article is completely vague about what kind of fermentation method is used, is it lacto-fermentation or something different? How long does it ferment, at what temperature, do the kimchi pots have a water seal, etc.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chimel31 ( talk • contribs) 23:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not an expert in Food and Nutirition, but I know, by a common sense as a Korean, that Kimchi is primarily fermented by Lactobacillus, meaning the fermentation of Kimchi is lactic acid fermentation. One of the main health benefit of kimchi is its lactic acid bacteria which helps digestion and decomposition of sugar. I will present several dozens of reliable food and nutrition articles and book chapters which prove beneficial lactic acid bacteria in Kimchi if necessary. If you don't believe me, just Google search "lactic acid bacteria" and "kimchi". There have been internationally hundreds of academic articles on lactic acid characteristics of kimchi in Food and Nutrition perspectives. Hkwon ( talk) 11:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
What point is a section on "nutritional value" if it doesn't mention SALT?! I think we can all stipulate that veggies, garlic, onions and ginger are good for you - the question is whether it's worth all that SODIUM present!
Last I heard, Koreans have the highest rate of STOMACH CANCER in the world -- which i assume is directly related to their heavy intake of PICKLES. I'd be curious to know whether they have an elevated rate of heart attacks, strokes, hardening of the arteries, etc. etc., sodium-related problems.
This should be the MAIN FOCUS of any "nutritional value" section. There is no "issue" with kimchi other than the SALT content. 209.172.25.121 ( talk) 04:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
What is 막김치 (mak kimchi)? 204.210.240.163 ( talk) 20:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
The usage of Kimchi ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:KIMCHI -- 65.94.171.206 ( talk) 00:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
How does it compare to sauerkraut? That could be a point of reference. CountMacula ( talk) 01:50, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The article (and sources 19 and 20) claim that Kimchi is rich in vitamin B1 and B2, among nutrients. However, these sources do not seem unbiased, and a quick cross-reference between the table with nutritional facts and their RDA seems to contradict that claim. For example, if 100g of kimchi has 0.03mg vit. B1, and the RDA for an adult male and average intake is 1.1mg and2 mg respectively, that means you'd need to eat around 3kg of kimchi to get the minimum amount of B1, and 6kg to get a 'regular' amount. The other nutrients listed seem equally dubious. 2A02:1811:D1D:A500:4D80:4615:1F2F:82C4 ( talk) 20:14, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
For balance, I've added information about kimchi's links with stomach cancer.
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A quick question, should we even discuss the number of varieties as in the current ref stating that there 200+ varieties? There are limitless varieties, any region, weather time place etc etc can influence how its made. Examples include the raw oyster variety, beef broth fish broth etc etc. Why not just state that the type of kimchi is dependent on external factors as opposed to posting an arbitrary article about pickles tell us its 200+? Coal town guy ( talk) 14:41, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352618115000451
This is a counter to the idea that Kimchi was always white radish Kimchi. It's interesting and may be useful to the article.-- KimYunmi ( talk) 18:21, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Hello Fellow Wikipedia editors, On behalf of my fellow student team enrolled in an introductory food science course at UBC, we would like to use our newly learned food science knowledge to enhance this article on Kimchi. In particular, we are interested in exploring and contributing to information on the chemical process of fermentation of kimchi, the variations of kimchi around the world, and the food regulations surrounding kimchi in Canada. We will continue to post our outlines and drafts on this sandbox /info/en/?search=User:Jcookie98/sandbox. We welcome all comments and feedback. We look forward to contributing to Wikipedia via this course assignment. Marina Trinca Colonel, Jaedon Cooke, Anita Suen, Vijay Aditya.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Marinacolonel ( talk • contribs) 05:52, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:53, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
Recent edits inserted a {{ missing information}} template into the Nutrition and health section. However the allegedly missing information, regarding vitamins B12 and K, seems irrelevant. Both are covered in the several charts and tables: B12 seemed not majorly important relative to recommended daily amounts, and K was not detected. Suggest the template be removed, if somebody has reliable sourcing for this topic it could be added. -- M.boli ( talk) 20:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
This subsection is entirely editorial without proper references. Use of primary sources to make claims about etymology is disruptive, questionable and violates WP:OR and WP:SYN: incorrect information regarding pronunciation of etymological terms, square blocks in place of Korean letters, etc. Unless, proper references can be provided, unreferenced claims should be removed. E.g. "The aspirated first consonant of timchai became unaspirated in dimchɑi, then underwent palatalization in jimchɑi. The word then became jimchui with the loss of the vowel ɑ (ㆍ) in Korean language, then Kimchi, with the depalatalized word-initial consonant. In Modern Korean, the hanja characters 沈菜 are pronounced chimchai (침채), and are not used to refer to kimchi, or anything else." Where is the reference for this statement? Also where did 'chai' come from. That's a word, sound that doesn't exist in Korean language "채" is pronounced che or chae. What is "chui" What Korean letter is that supposed to be??? This entire section is like this. Melonbarmonster2 ( talk) 17:50, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
90.205.253.243 made a series of edits today, in particular adding a section "Dispute between China and South Korea over the origin of kimchi" with a series of edits. It wasn't clear to me that a dispute actually exists.
For these reasons, I'm removing the section. SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 01:19, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Your concern seems to be over the wording used by the journalists of the BBC and the Guardian, not the credibility of the sources. I doubt this warrants the deletion of the whole section. After all, there is indeed an ongoing dispute between Chinese and South Korean over the origin of Kimchi, and this was even reported in the Chinese state-owned media South China Morning Post. All the sources I have included came from credible news organisations (the BBC, the Guardian, the New York Times etc.). South Korean indeed expressed their dismay strongly on social media and other media outlets. The removal of this whole section is inadequate as it shows an attempt to delete and/or ignore history . Therefore I have undone the change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:D3:71C:E00:4050:8B66:DE32:CA67 ( talk) 12:31, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
A spat is raging this week over a Chinese state tabloid’s claim that China had “led” the development of an international standard for paocai, or pickled vegetables. In South Korea, the claim was seen as misleading because in the Chinese language, paocai also refers to kimchi — the fermented cabbage dish that plays an integral role in Korean cuisine.
Because in the Chinese language, paocai can also refer to kimchi[99], numerous outlets reported the Global Times as claiming "an international standard for the kimchi industry led by China"; an online backlash then emerged over whether China had claimed kimchi as its own.
South Koreans are angry about kimchi being claimed as a Chinese dish. But the question is, did Chinese state media actually claim kimchi as a Chinese dish? Based on the differences between the NYT and the BBC translations, it is not clear to me that the answer is yes. Therefore once again, both translations should be included, and the reader can decide for themselves. That is WP:NPOV. SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 13:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
I keep talking about "translation" because the BBC and the New York Times quote the Global Times but with different wording. As I wrote,
Do you see that both the BBC and the New York Times referred to those as quotes ("")? That means to them, they believed they were copying exactly what the Global Times said, verbatim, without change. But the BBC and the New York Times used different wording:
So either these are different sentences within the same Global Times article, or they are different translations of the same sentence within the Global Times article.
If you believe that translation has nothing to do with this dispute, then please provide the original Global Times article so we can verify that the original article referred to "an international standard for the kimchi industry led by China" in English. SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 15:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kimchi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Pimang ( talk) 00:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Korean public was shocked by the numbers of imported and exported kimchi in the previous year 2017, the total amount of import is 275,631 tons, in which 99 percent of it from China, while only exported 24,311 tons to overseas. This information was published by the Korean Customs Service. [1]
References
This is a delicate subject, but several studies have found a direct correlation between high consumptions of kimchi and various cancers, notably stomach and colon. ROK has amongst the highest stats for these cancers globally. Worth a mention? Hanoi Road ( talk) 16:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
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Change Etymology for Kimchi
Kimchi
As'chimchae 침채 (沈菜)' changed to chimchae → dimchae → kimchae → kimchi over the years, it became kimchi. In the Book Naehun 내훈 (內訓), "Juh 저 (菹)" is "Dim Chae (딤채)". Naehun 내훈 (內訓) is written by Insoo (인수대비) birth mother of King Seongjong in the 6th year of King Seongjong in the Joseon Dynasty (1475) to educate women.
In addition, in the 12th year of King Seongjong (1481), Dusieonhae 두시언해 (杜時諺解) translated “Juh 저” into “Dihi 디히”.
It is said that “Dim (딤) ” is palatally converted into “kim (김) ” or “kimchi (김치)” through “jim (짐) ” . The palatalization refers to a phenomenon that changes from'Di→Ji→Ki'. In the Hongja-hyundai-ok edition (홍자현대옥편), "Juh (저)" is translated into kimchi (김치).
Some scholars says that "Dihi (디히)" is a pure Korean word for kimchi. "Dihi" has changed to "ji" and is still used today.
https://www.kimchimuseum.com/ Bona chung ( talk) 04:56, 15 February 2021 (UTC)