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With a gold-based definition of the kilogram for instance, the definition of the mole would be changed from one based on a carbon-12 to the quantity of atoms as are in 196.966 569 g of gold (from the current value of 196.966 569(4) grams) and the kilogram would be defined as “the mass equal to that of precisely 1000/196.966569 moles (≅5.077 003 7021 moles) of gold atoms.”
In which way wouldn't that be a circular definition? As it currently stands, that number, 196.966569 ± 4×10−6, is twelve times the ratio between the mass of a gold-197 atom and the one of a carbon-12 atom. Of course, it is a dimensionless constant, we cannot fix it to anything, and it won't help us to define the kilogram (unless we fix the Avogadro number). Perhaps it was meant to be "the mass of 3 057 443 616 231 138 188 735 gold atoms"? If so, it should state that. -- Army1987 20:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the lead currently reads:
While the weight of objects is often given in kilograms, the kilogram is, in the strict scientific sense, a unit of mass. The equivalent unit of force is the non-SI kilogram-force. Similarly, the avoirdupois pound, used in both the Imperial system and U.S. customary units, is a unit of mass and its related unit of force is the pound-force. The avoirdupois pound is defined as exactly 0.453 592 37 kg, making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.205 avoirdupois pounds.
I'm concerned that some readers, who don't know that weight is a force, will be confused about the relationship between the first sentence of this paragraph and the other three sentences. I could clear it up by explaining that weight is a force, but that seems about of place in the lead section of this article about the kilogram. Any ideas for making the relationship clear without bogging down the paragraph with irrelevant information? Enuja (talk) 01:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Gene: Enuja’s concerns are spot-on and well founded. What are you talking about when you wrote “…[I’m concerned about some readers] who do not know that weight is never a force…”?
I sure hope we are in agreement that the measurement of weight is the measurement of force and you’re not going to say Encyclopedia Britannica and everyone else are wrong. If you agree that weight is a force, then why confuse the issue with nuances like “troy weight” or “net weight”. This article is about the kilogram, which is a unit of mass that is often (incorrectly) used as unit of weight but where weight is properly measured using the kilogram-force. As Wikipedia’s own kilogram-force article says, the kilogram-force “is defined as the force exerted by one kilogram of mass in standard Earth gravity.” Given that Encyclopedia Britannica says “gravitational attraction” is the same as “weight”, then it must follow that the kilogram-force, which is the measure of Earth’s gravitational force acting upon a kilogram, is a measure of weight.
Enuja has a valid concern when she wrote about better bridging “the relationship between the first sentence of this paragraph and the other three sentences”; she’s got a damn good eye for recognizing where a novice to this topic might get confused. That’s precisely the issue I was trying to address with my compromise wording after your first round of changing “weight” to “force”. Now that I look back at what you reversion of my edit, I realize my compromise wording came up short and I'm glad it’s gone. As Enuja says however, there needs to be bridge wording to span the gulf between the concept of “weight” and that of “force.” So…
I’ve changed the second paragraph back to the very original wording. That short sentence is extremely tight prose, is spot-on accurate, and doesn’t imply anything like “this is the preferred unit of force” or any other false implications. It’s perfectly appropriate for the tight, pithy definitions that are the trademark style of Wikipedia. Enuja: do you like it as now revised? In case it gets reverted, I simply restored it to the original wording, which was as follows:
While the weight of objects is often given in kilograms, the kilogram is, in the strict scientific sense, a unit of mass. The equivalent unit of weight is the non-SI kilogram-force.
Greg L ( my talk) 04:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
So are the kilograms used for the weights in the sport of weightlifting, and in weight training for many other sports. Just exactly how much difference did you think there was between the mass of a 20 kg weight used at the Helsinki Olympics and the mass of a 20 kg weight used at the Mexico City Olympics?
The word weight is used because when you put something on a scale, you weigh it to find out its mass, you don't force your thumb on the scale along with the grapes or apples to force the reading to be higher. Or at least you aren't supposed to. Force is usually used in terms of pushing something, weight is a shorthand term for the force of gravity. 199.125.109.105 19:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Gene. The area we’re battling over is well down into the depths of section titled Mass vs. weight. At this point in the article, the nuances and distinctions of mass, force, and weight are abundantly clear. I’ve worked as an engineer in departments with scores of engineers. Young, degreed engineers who should know better don’t understand some of this stuff. At this point, I’m speaking to that audience. I see no reason to tackle the opening definition today. I’m going to think about this overnight. That usually enables me to better “get into the head” of the opposing party. Relax. Greg L ( my talk) 19:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Although kilogram is defined (upload the appropriate CIPM document to Wikiquote and link to it here) as a unit of mass, the weight of objects (their gravitational force) is often given in kilograms, and in many situations the terms "mass" and "weight" are used interchangeably. The non-SI unit of force related to the kilogram is the kilogram-force. Similarly, the avoirdupois pound, used in both the Imperial system and U.S. customary units, is a unit of mass and its related unit of force is the pound-force. The avoirdupois pound is defined as exactly 0.453 592 37 kg, making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.205 avoirdupois pounds.
Enuja (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Greg's list, with my comments (his italicized with original italics upright for clarity)
Gene Nygaard 15:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Since you are basing your arguments above in part on the Wikipedia article at weight, please go check out the only reliable source cited as a reference in that article, on exactly the point for which it is cited. It specifically says that "the SI unit of the quantity weight used in this sense is the kilogram". Can't get much more straightforward than that, can you? It also, of course, describes a different meaning of the ambiguous word weight, for which the SI unit of weight is the newton. Gene Nygaard 06:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll charibably assume that you just failed to read the whole article. Gene Nygaard 06:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Clarification in response to Enuja's comments below: the above quote is from NIST, at Guide for the Use of the International System of Units (SI), 1995, NIST Special Publication 881, section 8.3 [1] Gene Nygaard 14:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Greg accuses me of "avoiding addressing the 800-pound bull in the china shop known as Encyclopedia Britannica".
So let's deal with that now.
The Encyclopædia Britannica also has an article on "Weights and measures", right? What does "weight" mean there?
How does Encyclopædia Britannica actually use the word weight throughout its encyclopedia? Just like everybody else does, most often meaning the quantity called mass in physics jargon (something different from the mass referred to by bodybuilders and various other meanings of mass).
Greg says: "Given that Encyclopedia Britannica says “gravitational attraction” is the same as “weight”, then it must follow that the kilogram-force, which is the measure of Earth’s gravitational force acting upon a kilogram, is a measure of weight."
That's full of several different logical fallacies, but let's deal with the primary one:
More to follow. Gene Nygaard 13:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Your argument is analogous to the common-notion sense understading of the word “fluid” (as in “cleaning fluid”) vs. the scientific, engineering, and physics sense, where fluids include gases as well as liquids. Sorry, but an encyclopedia topic on “fluid” must define it strictly per the scientific definition (as does Wikipedia’s own article on it) and no amount of citing all the common usage exceptions will change this fact. Greg L ( my talk) 19:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The actual acceleration is what gives rise to the force, not some made-up one.
Gene Nygaard 03:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it's particularly helpful to argue about the number of significant figures here. The value of g and how it is rounded are pretty much irrelevant to the text, so I have re-worded it to avoid the issue. Let me know what you think of the change. -- Slashme 13:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not buoyancy is accounted for or not in what is called "weight" is not consistent. Weight is used both ways. It depends in part on the context.
But in any case, that is a discussion for the Weight article. It doesn't belong here. Gene Nygaard 09:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Gene. I’ve tried to be patient but your continued edits trying to change accepted facts in physics are becoming disruptive. Encyclopedia Britannica very simply defines “weight” as “[the] gravitational force of attraction on an object, caused by the presence of a massive second object, such as the Earth or Moon.” Wikipedia’s Weight article defines weight as follows: In the physical sciences, weight is a measurement of the gravitational force acting on an object. World Book (print edition) says this under Weight: Weight is the gravitational force put forth on an object by the planet on which the object is located. Further, the Kilogram article adheres perfectly to Encyclopedia Britannica’s discussion of the distinction between “weight” and “mass”. The article also gives proper and fair treatment to the fact that the term “weight” in common vernacular can occasionally mean “mass.”
With regard to Encyclopedia Britannica’s article on weight you’ve written here that we shouldn’t “stoop” to their level and you’ve also written that Wikipedia’s own article on weight, which is linked to in several places in this article can’t be trusted. Other editors besides me have made edits that counter yours. I’ve leaned over backwards and several parenthetical instances of “(force due to gravity)” have been placed after various instances of “weight” to help the reader understand the point. These parenthetical explanations go far beyond other encyclopedic treatments; my print edition of World Book doesn’t even mention that “weight" may sometimes mean “mass” in common vernacular. In light of these realities, which were carefully explained to you above, you’re placement of a “factual dispute” tag on this article just because you aren't getting your way borders on vandalism. I see from your edits and arguments in places like Talk:Mass and in various areas of the Weight article, that you’ve take up the cause there, trying to redefine the commonly accepted usage of the term to “force due to gravity.” Your continued edits to change reality are without foundation and are disruptive. You’ve been warned. Greg L ( my talk) 16:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
My seven-word sentence says it all: I agreed with the comments that were made. And yes, I did read them before agreeing. In everyday use, "weight" and "mass" are used interchangably (I myself would say "I weigh 75kg" rather than "my mass is 75kg"). But in physics, weight and mass have different units, and "I weigh 75kg" is strictly not correct. Simple and nothing controversial about it. Timb66 14:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not think this article warrants either "disputed" or "misleading" tags. Gene, is there something other than the use of the term "weight" which you find to be misleading or factually disputed? As I have said before, this is an article about the kilogram. Any disagreement about the appropriate use of the word "weight" is not factual in nature and so cannot be a factual dispute. This is a linguistic dispute about a word that is relevant to the concept of the kilogram, but this dispute does not put into jeopardy any actual facts ABOUT THE KILOGRAM. Please do not add these tags without a detailed explanation on this talk page of the facts that are disputed or the passages that are misleading. Enuja (talk) 20:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Since Enuja and Greg L have insisted on going this route, it will, of course, necessarily take some time for each of these issues to even be brought of for discussion in the contest of an identified dispute. This merely identifies the problems; it doesn't present all the arguments related to them.
There may be a little problem with too much U.S. slant, especially in things like comparisons of the national standards. Suggest someone check out the Swedish national standards lab; they had some detailed information online info about comparisons of their national standard kilogram. Likely some other national standards agencies too, most of them have websites which can be found on a list at the BIPM site. Gene Nygaard 14:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I totally, absolutely, positively agree with the great majority of Gene Nygaard's points above; this article needs to link to other appropriate articles instead of trying to explain the entire subject of metrology here, and it needs to stop pretending that there is one true way to describe mass and weight. However, I totally disagree with Gene's placement of every single one of the "factual accuracy is disputed" tags, except, possibly, the tag on Kilogram#The_distinction_between_the_two. However, the only part of that section whose actual factual accuracy is disputed is the last sentence. The little in-text disputed tag would fit much better, and it's be even better to use just the damn moon analogy as the only example of mass v. weight in this article. It's not the accuracy, it's the wording and placement of the ideas that need to change. Littering this article with all of these tags will make readers doubt the facts they are learning in the article. This is misplaced doubt. Just because the article needs work, doesn't mean it needs work with its factual accuracy. The only tag I think makes complete sense is the relevance tag on Kilogram#The_unit_of_force:_kilogram-force. Enuja (talk) 14:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Have you started to buy into Gene Nygaard’s argument that “There's no reason for us to stoop to Encyclopedia Britannica”? One of his last arguments to support how “weight” doesn’t necessarily mean “force due to gravity” was by challenging me ( here) to explain what this means “on my bag of sugar: NET WT 10 LB 4.54 kg”. Of course, this is an issue plucked from, and directly covered in, the Kilogram article. After a professor of astrophysics at the School of Physics, University of Sydney said he agreed with my position on Gene’s disruptive and unfounded edits, Gene challenged him with the same question. The professor handily answered it. It should come as absolutely zero surprise, as his other posts here and elsewhere demonstrate, that Gene doesn’t recognize this fellow’s credentials or opinion on what is a simple, flat-out fact. Gene’s arguments are circuitous beyond reason and he either isn’t reading what’s in the article, or he can’t understand it, or he refuses to accept it. When he wasn’t getting his way here, he went over to Mass and engaged in the same sort of disruptive edits there. His abuse of the collaborative writing process here on Wikipedia has brought us to the point that no reasonable and rational human being should have to put up with any more of his vandalism. I received an e-mail last night from an editor who ran up against Gene in another article. It was a letter of “condolences” for what I am dealing with. One can not battle irrational behavior with rational behavior to any sensible conclusion; at some point, the process of trying to debate him must end and any of his unreasonable edits simply reverted for what they are: vandalism. User:Slashme, User:Timb66, and I have all had our input and seem to be rather satisfied with what’s in the Kilogram article. If Gene wants to make good-faith edits, he’s more than welcome. But if he continues to try to change the world of physics to conform to his distorted and incorrect view of the world, he can start at Encyclopedia Britannica and elsewhere; it won’t start here. Greg L ( my talk) 20:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
<back to margin>
Enuja, you seem to be confused about the meaning of "factual dispute" in the context of a {{tl:disputed}} tag.
The terminology used to describe forces which include a buoyancy factor is a factual dispute. The terminology "replica" and my claim that it is wrongly applied to the sisters, not descendants, of the IPK is a factual dispute. The proper terminology used to describe anything can be a "factual dispute". The strange notion that a calculation should include gn ( standard gravity), a metrological construct and not a physics construct, when it in fact should be the more general variable g ( gravitational acceleration) is a factual dispute. The list may include some things that are other kinds of disputes as well, including the section that is both a factual dispute and an NPOV section. But by and large the issues here are indeed "factual disputes". Gene Nygaard 12:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Let me repeat here a warning I just posted on Greg's talk page:
A simple warning should suffice. Do not make false accusations of vandalism, as you did here — and do not remove dispute, dubious, fact tages and the properly added and documented on the talk page while the controversy continues. Gene Nygaard 01:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Such warnings belong on Greg L's talk page, not on the article talk page. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 20:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Slashme, understood that “gravity” is a universal property. But isn’t “strength of gravity” 1) perfectly clear, and 2) both accurate and proper; to describe the principle without all that verbiage? NASA uses it here. I think the rather burdened “strength of the local gravitational field” sounds too much like the Professor on Gilligan’s Island. Simpler language sounds less pretentious. So I compromised here and in the two instances used “strength of local gravity.” Does that work for you? Thanks for all your well intentioned edits. I think they’ve improved the article. Greg L ( my talk) 15:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Slashme: I know you are from South Africa so it was likely force of habit when you used the “metre” spelling a couple of times. Since there wasn’t a previous post here on this discussion page covering this topic, I thought it time to put one here. Wikipedia’s official policy is that the spelling convention used by the first major contributors should be retained. The Kilogram article is—and has been—written throughout with American spelling (kilogram instead of kilogramme, meter instead of metre). Note the following passage, taken from Wikipedia:Manual of Style:
“ | In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee ruled that when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so (for example, it is acceptable to change from American to British spelling if the article concerns a British topic, and vice versa). Edit warring over optional styles is unacceptable. If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jguk. | ” |
Note that “meter” is the proper American spelling. Note further that this article has been consistently using the American spelling for words like “kilogram,” “liter,” and “meter”. Please also take note of another common-sense policy from Wikipedia:Manual of Style:
“ | An overriding principle is that style and formatting should be applied consistently throughout an article, unless there is a good reason to do otherwise, except in direct quotations, where the original text is generally preserved. | ” |
Greg L ( my talk) 18:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
After great debate that didn’t result in satisfaction to all parties, the necessity and appropriateness of having “Disputed” and “Misleading” tags here on the Kilogram article is being addressed at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts: Disruptive, bad-faith edits by Gene Nygaard on the charge that the tags amount to tedious editing. Greg L ( my talk) 21:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
That Wikipedia has "misleading" and "disputed" tags on a page about the kilogram is quite a pity, and we must work to get this sorted out as soon as possible. The answer is not to fight about whether the tag should be up there or not. Let's get to the bottom of the dispute and hammer out a consensus. I have been trawling through the history of the article and the talk page to try and figure out exactly what the issue is, and it's not that easy to figure out. Maybe Gene and Greg can each spell out what exactly they feel the other is getting wrong, and (I know this is difficult when you are frustrated) try and stick to the facts, and keep from flaming each other (Yes, you are both guilty: "Have you given a quit-claim deed on your ownership claims here to User:Timb66" and "Trying to deal with all the crap you throw up onto the wall is a bit like trying to argue with the cigarette manufacturers...") -- Slashme 12:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's start all over again. I know that you're frustrated with Gene, and I agree that I should have left your text here verbatim and unchanged. But let's try and keep the flames out of the discussion. Here is a good place to post simple rational arguments about the content that should be in the article, not his conduct. It's not an argument about who is a better person, it's about resolving the content issue. I invite you to keep the content issues physically separate on this page. I would personally cut and paste them, but that doesn't work.
Gene, if you see this post before Greg gets here, I invite you to specifically state your opinion as to what the content of the article should be, separate from any issues which may have arisen from Greg's actions. -- Slashme 19:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I will try and go through the tags one by one here. Please, everybody, try not to say anything here which is not relevant to the issue. This includes the history of the dispute, what who said when, and what anyone said about anyone else in the past. For example, don't say "I put the tag here because G. wanted to say "x" and wouldn't stop reverting, and Y. said that G. is being disruptive, see his comment *here*." Say "The section says "x" and should say "y"" or "The section used to say "x" and should say "y" (which it now does), but not everyone agrees, for the following reasons: *1 *2"
This section has a "content" tag which indicates that the relevance of the section is under dispute.
Discussion:
This section has a "TotallyDisputed-section" tag which indicates that the neutrality and accuracy of the section is under dispute.
Discussion:
The section also has a "content" tag that questions the relevance of the section.
Discussion:
Well, so far we have a consensus of three, with the only dissenting vote presumably being Gene, who is still blocked until later today (72 hour block). I'm fascinated to see what his reasoning will be. -- Slashme 05:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
From Greg L: I very much look forward to addressing Gene’s issues (enumerated and explained in Disputed, above) in a structured environment. As I already did with two issues here ( “Sorting it out, above), we’ll be able to address these issues once and for all and be on with life. So while, I’m here, I’ll address another one: the central issue that got Gene started on this: that “weight” in the physical sciences is “force due to gravity”. Gene wrote above in his enumeration as follows:
When I told Gene of these facts above, he responded with “There's no reason for us to stoop to Encyclopedia Britannica.” He also said “Wikipedia is not a reliable source” and then linked “reliable source” to Wikipedia’s own Wikipedia:Reliable sources. He didn’t agree with either Wikipedia’s definition nor Encyclopedia Britannica’s. With regard to World Book, he responded only with “Now World Book too?” We should not feel like we have to change reality here on Wikipedia. It’s time to put this one to bed and move on.
As for Gene’s “…God's ordained meaning…” line, that charge is without foundation. The article is abundantly clear that there is a difference between the strict, scientific distinction and the common usage. The article states as follows: “In everyday usage, the weight of objects is often given in kilograms. Strictly speaking though, the kilogram is a unit of mass; the “weight” of an object is its gravitational force and is measured in newtons…” The article also states as follows: “In the physical sciences, the terms “ mass” and “ weight” are rigidly defined as separate measures in order to enforce clarity and precision. In everyday use, given that all masses on Earth have weight and this relationship is usually highly proportional, “weight” often serves to describe both properties, its meaning being dependent upon context.” It is only the above-cited professional print encyclopedias, not this article, that suggest that there is only one, God-ordained meaning of the word “weight.”
Greg L ( my talk) 16:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
In this edit more than five days ago, User:Timb66 corrected the second paragraph and removed, justifiably, the {{dubious}} tag that was there (something I'd have also indicated to have been appropriate above).
Then in
this edit with minor changes in the two subsequent edits, Greg L removed Timb66's corrections and restored the Greg L version which warranted the "dubious" tag in the first place.
I put it back to Timb66's version, but Greg insists on edit-warring and has restored his "dubious" version. Gene Nygaard 17:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
From Greg L: Our conventional understandings and observations of the common-vernacular use of the term “weight” are perfectly consistent with scienece and this article. One doesn’t have to suspend common sense to know that when most people speak of the “weight” of something that has had its magnitude expressed in kilograms, (such as when they talk about how “heavy” a 40 kg sack of concrete is), they are really and truly talking about the weight of the kilogram. People in real life rarely struggle with the inertia of massive objects. Sure, players of American football are concerned about inertia (mass) when they collide and are less concerned about the “weight” of the opposing player. But in most circumstances in daily life for most people—like backpacking—when people have problems with objects with too great of a mass, the difficulty is with their struggle against gravity; that is, the object’s “weight”, not the object’s inertial property (mass). Thus, in most cases in every-day vernacular, the term “weight” is used by laypersons in the literal, proper, scientific sense since it describes the property of “heaviness.” Accordingly, the proper scientific definition of “weight”—as used in this article—accurately describes the term as most commonly used and understood and as you all have described above.
Both the scientific distinction of mass and weight and the common-vernacular acceptance of the term are addressed in NIST Handbook 130, which states:
- V. "Mass" and "Weight." [NOTE 1, See page 6]
- The mass of an object is a measure of the object’s inertial property, or the amount of matter it contains. The weight of an object is a measure of the force exerted on the object by gravity, or the force needed to support it. The pull of gravity on the earth gives an object a downward acceleration of about 9.8 m/s2. In trade and commerce and everyday use, the term "weight" is often used as a synonym for "mass." The "net mass" or "net weight" declared on a label indicates that the package contains a specific amount of commodity exclusive of wrapping materials. The use of the term "mass" is predominant throughout the world, and is becoming increasingly common in the United States. (Added 1993)
- W. Use of the Terms "Mass" and "Weight." [NOTE 1, See page 6]
- When used in this handbook, the term "weight" means "mass." The term "weight" appears when inch-pound units are cited, or when both inch-pound and SI units are included in a requirement. The terms "mass" or "masses" are used when only SI units are cited in a requirement. The following note appears where the term "weight" is first used in a law or regulation.
- NOTE 1: When used in this law (or regulation), the term "weight" means "mass." (See paragraph V. and W. in Section I., Introduction, of NIST Handbook 130 for an explanation of these terms.) (Added 1993) 6"
It’s really quite simple: Trade and commerce legally allows the measure of mass (which is expressed in kilograms or pounds) to be called “weight”. Further, when non-scientists speak of a particular quantity that has had its measure expressed in kilograms, they refer to that quantity’s “weight,” and rightly so too: because it’s heavy. This is all perfectly consistent with the concept that “weight” is “force due to gravity.” This is not complex; spurious arguments shouldn’t lead anyone down blind logical alleys. Greg L ( my talk) 22:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | In everyday usage, the weight of objects is often given in kilograms. Strictly speaking though, the kilogram is a unit of mass; the “weight” of an object is its gravitational force and is measured in newtons (see also Kilogram-force). | ” |
“ | In everyday usage, the mass of an object in kilograms is often referred to as its weight, although strictly speaking the weight of an object is the gravitational force on it, measured in newtons (see also Kilogram-force). | ” |
I don’t think the original wording (“In everyday usage, the mass of an object in kilograms is often referred to as its weight”) can fairly be called flat “incorrect” but I find it somewhat misleading because of a subtlety. The difference is the current text (as I’ve revised it) only says a pure fact: “weight is often given in kilograms”. It doesn’t suggest what people “mean” or are referring to when they speak of the general property. I believe the old wording carries the connotation—an incorrect one IMO—that people actually think of the property as “mass” but incorrectly call it “weight”. I think it is quite clear based on common sense observation of the world around us that most people perceive the property of “how much” really and truly in terms of “weight”. We pick up a bag of potatoes to feel how heavy it is. We grunt a little and say it feels like so many kilograms. This everyday sense of the nature of the property has long been called “weight” in the English-speaking world and this lead to the precise scientific definition of “weight” to be “force due to gravity”. “Mass” and “inertia” are much so more obscure properties, that they seem overly scientific to the average layperson. That’s why the U.S. Government allows “Net Mass” to be called “Net Weight.” So simply saying “weight is often given in kilograms” seemed less loaded of a statement to me and absent any implication of what people mean. Further, I thought the word “weight” in that sentence was all-encompasing because it means either/or/both “weight,” as people commonly think of it, and “weight” as used in commerce.
For these reasons, I prefer the current, less loaded wording. Do you agree? Greg L ( my talk) 03:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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With a gold-based definition of the kilogram for instance, the definition of the mole would be changed from one based on a carbon-12 to the quantity of atoms as are in 196.966 569 g of gold (from the current value of 196.966 569(4) grams) and the kilogram would be defined as “the mass equal to that of precisely 1000/196.966569 moles (≅5.077 003 7021 moles) of gold atoms.”
In which way wouldn't that be a circular definition? As it currently stands, that number, 196.966569 ± 4×10−6, is twelve times the ratio between the mass of a gold-197 atom and the one of a carbon-12 atom. Of course, it is a dimensionless constant, we cannot fix it to anything, and it won't help us to define the kilogram (unless we fix the Avogadro number). Perhaps it was meant to be "the mass of 3 057 443 616 231 138 188 735 gold atoms"? If so, it should state that. -- Army1987 20:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the lead currently reads:
While the weight of objects is often given in kilograms, the kilogram is, in the strict scientific sense, a unit of mass. The equivalent unit of force is the non-SI kilogram-force. Similarly, the avoirdupois pound, used in both the Imperial system and U.S. customary units, is a unit of mass and its related unit of force is the pound-force. The avoirdupois pound is defined as exactly 0.453 592 37 kg, making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.205 avoirdupois pounds.
I'm concerned that some readers, who don't know that weight is a force, will be confused about the relationship between the first sentence of this paragraph and the other three sentences. I could clear it up by explaining that weight is a force, but that seems about of place in the lead section of this article about the kilogram. Any ideas for making the relationship clear without bogging down the paragraph with irrelevant information? Enuja (talk) 01:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Gene: Enuja’s concerns are spot-on and well founded. What are you talking about when you wrote “…[I’m concerned about some readers] who do not know that weight is never a force…”?
I sure hope we are in agreement that the measurement of weight is the measurement of force and you’re not going to say Encyclopedia Britannica and everyone else are wrong. If you agree that weight is a force, then why confuse the issue with nuances like “troy weight” or “net weight”. This article is about the kilogram, which is a unit of mass that is often (incorrectly) used as unit of weight but where weight is properly measured using the kilogram-force. As Wikipedia’s own kilogram-force article says, the kilogram-force “is defined as the force exerted by one kilogram of mass in standard Earth gravity.” Given that Encyclopedia Britannica says “gravitational attraction” is the same as “weight”, then it must follow that the kilogram-force, which is the measure of Earth’s gravitational force acting upon a kilogram, is a measure of weight.
Enuja has a valid concern when she wrote about better bridging “the relationship between the first sentence of this paragraph and the other three sentences”; she’s got a damn good eye for recognizing where a novice to this topic might get confused. That’s precisely the issue I was trying to address with my compromise wording after your first round of changing “weight” to “force”. Now that I look back at what you reversion of my edit, I realize my compromise wording came up short and I'm glad it’s gone. As Enuja says however, there needs to be bridge wording to span the gulf between the concept of “weight” and that of “force.” So…
I’ve changed the second paragraph back to the very original wording. That short sentence is extremely tight prose, is spot-on accurate, and doesn’t imply anything like “this is the preferred unit of force” or any other false implications. It’s perfectly appropriate for the tight, pithy definitions that are the trademark style of Wikipedia. Enuja: do you like it as now revised? In case it gets reverted, I simply restored it to the original wording, which was as follows:
While the weight of objects is often given in kilograms, the kilogram is, in the strict scientific sense, a unit of mass. The equivalent unit of weight is the non-SI kilogram-force.
Greg L ( my talk) 04:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
So are the kilograms used for the weights in the sport of weightlifting, and in weight training for many other sports. Just exactly how much difference did you think there was between the mass of a 20 kg weight used at the Helsinki Olympics and the mass of a 20 kg weight used at the Mexico City Olympics?
The word weight is used because when you put something on a scale, you weigh it to find out its mass, you don't force your thumb on the scale along with the grapes or apples to force the reading to be higher. Or at least you aren't supposed to. Force is usually used in terms of pushing something, weight is a shorthand term for the force of gravity. 199.125.109.105 19:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Gene. The area we’re battling over is well down into the depths of section titled Mass vs. weight. At this point in the article, the nuances and distinctions of mass, force, and weight are abundantly clear. I’ve worked as an engineer in departments with scores of engineers. Young, degreed engineers who should know better don’t understand some of this stuff. At this point, I’m speaking to that audience. I see no reason to tackle the opening definition today. I’m going to think about this overnight. That usually enables me to better “get into the head” of the opposing party. Relax. Greg L ( my talk) 19:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Although kilogram is defined (upload the appropriate CIPM document to Wikiquote and link to it here) as a unit of mass, the weight of objects (their gravitational force) is often given in kilograms, and in many situations the terms "mass" and "weight" are used interchangeably. The non-SI unit of force related to the kilogram is the kilogram-force. Similarly, the avoirdupois pound, used in both the Imperial system and U.S. customary units, is a unit of mass and its related unit of force is the pound-force. The avoirdupois pound is defined as exactly 0.453 592 37 kg, making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.205 avoirdupois pounds.
Enuja (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Greg's list, with my comments (his italicized with original italics upright for clarity)
Gene Nygaard 15:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Since you are basing your arguments above in part on the Wikipedia article at weight, please go check out the only reliable source cited as a reference in that article, on exactly the point for which it is cited. It specifically says that "the SI unit of the quantity weight used in this sense is the kilogram". Can't get much more straightforward than that, can you? It also, of course, describes a different meaning of the ambiguous word weight, for which the SI unit of weight is the newton. Gene Nygaard 06:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll charibably assume that you just failed to read the whole article. Gene Nygaard 06:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Clarification in response to Enuja's comments below: the above quote is from NIST, at Guide for the Use of the International System of Units (SI), 1995, NIST Special Publication 881, section 8.3 [1] Gene Nygaard 14:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Greg accuses me of "avoiding addressing the 800-pound bull in the china shop known as Encyclopedia Britannica".
So let's deal with that now.
The Encyclopædia Britannica also has an article on "Weights and measures", right? What does "weight" mean there?
How does Encyclopædia Britannica actually use the word weight throughout its encyclopedia? Just like everybody else does, most often meaning the quantity called mass in physics jargon (something different from the mass referred to by bodybuilders and various other meanings of mass).
Greg says: "Given that Encyclopedia Britannica says “gravitational attraction” is the same as “weight”, then it must follow that the kilogram-force, which is the measure of Earth’s gravitational force acting upon a kilogram, is a measure of weight."
That's full of several different logical fallacies, but let's deal with the primary one:
More to follow. Gene Nygaard 13:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Your argument is analogous to the common-notion sense understading of the word “fluid” (as in “cleaning fluid”) vs. the scientific, engineering, and physics sense, where fluids include gases as well as liquids. Sorry, but an encyclopedia topic on “fluid” must define it strictly per the scientific definition (as does Wikipedia’s own article on it) and no amount of citing all the common usage exceptions will change this fact. Greg L ( my talk) 19:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The actual acceleration is what gives rise to the force, not some made-up one.
Gene Nygaard 03:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it's particularly helpful to argue about the number of significant figures here. The value of g and how it is rounded are pretty much irrelevant to the text, so I have re-worded it to avoid the issue. Let me know what you think of the change. -- Slashme 13:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not buoyancy is accounted for or not in what is called "weight" is not consistent. Weight is used both ways. It depends in part on the context.
But in any case, that is a discussion for the Weight article. It doesn't belong here. Gene Nygaard 09:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Gene. I’ve tried to be patient but your continued edits trying to change accepted facts in physics are becoming disruptive. Encyclopedia Britannica very simply defines “weight” as “[the] gravitational force of attraction on an object, caused by the presence of a massive second object, such as the Earth or Moon.” Wikipedia’s Weight article defines weight as follows: In the physical sciences, weight is a measurement of the gravitational force acting on an object. World Book (print edition) says this under Weight: Weight is the gravitational force put forth on an object by the planet on which the object is located. Further, the Kilogram article adheres perfectly to Encyclopedia Britannica’s discussion of the distinction between “weight” and “mass”. The article also gives proper and fair treatment to the fact that the term “weight” in common vernacular can occasionally mean “mass.”
With regard to Encyclopedia Britannica’s article on weight you’ve written here that we shouldn’t “stoop” to their level and you’ve also written that Wikipedia’s own article on weight, which is linked to in several places in this article can’t be trusted. Other editors besides me have made edits that counter yours. I’ve leaned over backwards and several parenthetical instances of “(force due to gravity)” have been placed after various instances of “weight” to help the reader understand the point. These parenthetical explanations go far beyond other encyclopedic treatments; my print edition of World Book doesn’t even mention that “weight" may sometimes mean “mass” in common vernacular. In light of these realities, which were carefully explained to you above, you’re placement of a “factual dispute” tag on this article just because you aren't getting your way borders on vandalism. I see from your edits and arguments in places like Talk:Mass and in various areas of the Weight article, that you’ve take up the cause there, trying to redefine the commonly accepted usage of the term to “force due to gravity.” Your continued edits to change reality are without foundation and are disruptive. You’ve been warned. Greg L ( my talk) 16:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
My seven-word sentence says it all: I agreed with the comments that were made. And yes, I did read them before agreeing. In everyday use, "weight" and "mass" are used interchangably (I myself would say "I weigh 75kg" rather than "my mass is 75kg"). But in physics, weight and mass have different units, and "I weigh 75kg" is strictly not correct. Simple and nothing controversial about it. Timb66 14:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not think this article warrants either "disputed" or "misleading" tags. Gene, is there something other than the use of the term "weight" which you find to be misleading or factually disputed? As I have said before, this is an article about the kilogram. Any disagreement about the appropriate use of the word "weight" is not factual in nature and so cannot be a factual dispute. This is a linguistic dispute about a word that is relevant to the concept of the kilogram, but this dispute does not put into jeopardy any actual facts ABOUT THE KILOGRAM. Please do not add these tags without a detailed explanation on this talk page of the facts that are disputed or the passages that are misleading. Enuja (talk) 20:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Since Enuja and Greg L have insisted on going this route, it will, of course, necessarily take some time for each of these issues to even be brought of for discussion in the contest of an identified dispute. This merely identifies the problems; it doesn't present all the arguments related to them.
There may be a little problem with too much U.S. slant, especially in things like comparisons of the national standards. Suggest someone check out the Swedish national standards lab; they had some detailed information online info about comparisons of their national standard kilogram. Likely some other national standards agencies too, most of them have websites which can be found on a list at the BIPM site. Gene Nygaard 14:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I totally, absolutely, positively agree with the great majority of Gene Nygaard's points above; this article needs to link to other appropriate articles instead of trying to explain the entire subject of metrology here, and it needs to stop pretending that there is one true way to describe mass and weight. However, I totally disagree with Gene's placement of every single one of the "factual accuracy is disputed" tags, except, possibly, the tag on Kilogram#The_distinction_between_the_two. However, the only part of that section whose actual factual accuracy is disputed is the last sentence. The little in-text disputed tag would fit much better, and it's be even better to use just the damn moon analogy as the only example of mass v. weight in this article. It's not the accuracy, it's the wording and placement of the ideas that need to change. Littering this article with all of these tags will make readers doubt the facts they are learning in the article. This is misplaced doubt. Just because the article needs work, doesn't mean it needs work with its factual accuracy. The only tag I think makes complete sense is the relevance tag on Kilogram#The_unit_of_force:_kilogram-force. Enuja (talk) 14:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Have you started to buy into Gene Nygaard’s argument that “There's no reason for us to stoop to Encyclopedia Britannica”? One of his last arguments to support how “weight” doesn’t necessarily mean “force due to gravity” was by challenging me ( here) to explain what this means “on my bag of sugar: NET WT 10 LB 4.54 kg”. Of course, this is an issue plucked from, and directly covered in, the Kilogram article. After a professor of astrophysics at the School of Physics, University of Sydney said he agreed with my position on Gene’s disruptive and unfounded edits, Gene challenged him with the same question. The professor handily answered it. It should come as absolutely zero surprise, as his other posts here and elsewhere demonstrate, that Gene doesn’t recognize this fellow’s credentials or opinion on what is a simple, flat-out fact. Gene’s arguments are circuitous beyond reason and he either isn’t reading what’s in the article, or he can’t understand it, or he refuses to accept it. When he wasn’t getting his way here, he went over to Mass and engaged in the same sort of disruptive edits there. His abuse of the collaborative writing process here on Wikipedia has brought us to the point that no reasonable and rational human being should have to put up with any more of his vandalism. I received an e-mail last night from an editor who ran up against Gene in another article. It was a letter of “condolences” for what I am dealing with. One can not battle irrational behavior with rational behavior to any sensible conclusion; at some point, the process of trying to debate him must end and any of his unreasonable edits simply reverted for what they are: vandalism. User:Slashme, User:Timb66, and I have all had our input and seem to be rather satisfied with what’s in the Kilogram article. If Gene wants to make good-faith edits, he’s more than welcome. But if he continues to try to change the world of physics to conform to his distorted and incorrect view of the world, he can start at Encyclopedia Britannica and elsewhere; it won’t start here. Greg L ( my talk) 20:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
<back to margin>
Enuja, you seem to be confused about the meaning of "factual dispute" in the context of a {{tl:disputed}} tag.
The terminology used to describe forces which include a buoyancy factor is a factual dispute. The terminology "replica" and my claim that it is wrongly applied to the sisters, not descendants, of the IPK is a factual dispute. The proper terminology used to describe anything can be a "factual dispute". The strange notion that a calculation should include gn ( standard gravity), a metrological construct and not a physics construct, when it in fact should be the more general variable g ( gravitational acceleration) is a factual dispute. The list may include some things that are other kinds of disputes as well, including the section that is both a factual dispute and an NPOV section. But by and large the issues here are indeed "factual disputes". Gene Nygaard 12:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Let me repeat here a warning I just posted on Greg's talk page:
A simple warning should suffice. Do not make false accusations of vandalism, as you did here — and do not remove dispute, dubious, fact tages and the properly added and documented on the talk page while the controversy continues. Gene Nygaard 01:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Such warnings belong on Greg L's talk page, not on the article talk page. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 20:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Slashme, understood that “gravity” is a universal property. But isn’t “strength of gravity” 1) perfectly clear, and 2) both accurate and proper; to describe the principle without all that verbiage? NASA uses it here. I think the rather burdened “strength of the local gravitational field” sounds too much like the Professor on Gilligan’s Island. Simpler language sounds less pretentious. So I compromised here and in the two instances used “strength of local gravity.” Does that work for you? Thanks for all your well intentioned edits. I think they’ve improved the article. Greg L ( my talk) 15:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Slashme: I know you are from South Africa so it was likely force of habit when you used the “metre” spelling a couple of times. Since there wasn’t a previous post here on this discussion page covering this topic, I thought it time to put one here. Wikipedia’s official policy is that the spelling convention used by the first major contributors should be retained. The Kilogram article is—and has been—written throughout with American spelling (kilogram instead of kilogramme, meter instead of metre). Note the following passage, taken from Wikipedia:Manual of Style:
“ | In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee ruled that when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so (for example, it is acceptable to change from American to British spelling if the article concerns a British topic, and vice versa). Edit warring over optional styles is unacceptable. If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jguk. | ” |
Note that “meter” is the proper American spelling. Note further that this article has been consistently using the American spelling for words like “kilogram,” “liter,” and “meter”. Please also take note of another common-sense policy from Wikipedia:Manual of Style:
“ | An overriding principle is that style and formatting should be applied consistently throughout an article, unless there is a good reason to do otherwise, except in direct quotations, where the original text is generally preserved. | ” |
Greg L ( my talk) 18:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
After great debate that didn’t result in satisfaction to all parties, the necessity and appropriateness of having “Disputed” and “Misleading” tags here on the Kilogram article is being addressed at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts: Disruptive, bad-faith edits by Gene Nygaard on the charge that the tags amount to tedious editing. Greg L ( my talk) 21:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
That Wikipedia has "misleading" and "disputed" tags on a page about the kilogram is quite a pity, and we must work to get this sorted out as soon as possible. The answer is not to fight about whether the tag should be up there or not. Let's get to the bottom of the dispute and hammer out a consensus. I have been trawling through the history of the article and the talk page to try and figure out exactly what the issue is, and it's not that easy to figure out. Maybe Gene and Greg can each spell out what exactly they feel the other is getting wrong, and (I know this is difficult when you are frustrated) try and stick to the facts, and keep from flaming each other (Yes, you are both guilty: "Have you given a quit-claim deed on your ownership claims here to User:Timb66" and "Trying to deal with all the crap you throw up onto the wall is a bit like trying to argue with the cigarette manufacturers...") -- Slashme 12:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's start all over again. I know that you're frustrated with Gene, and I agree that I should have left your text here verbatim and unchanged. But let's try and keep the flames out of the discussion. Here is a good place to post simple rational arguments about the content that should be in the article, not his conduct. It's not an argument about who is a better person, it's about resolving the content issue. I invite you to keep the content issues physically separate on this page. I would personally cut and paste them, but that doesn't work.
Gene, if you see this post before Greg gets here, I invite you to specifically state your opinion as to what the content of the article should be, separate from any issues which may have arisen from Greg's actions. -- Slashme 19:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I will try and go through the tags one by one here. Please, everybody, try not to say anything here which is not relevant to the issue. This includes the history of the dispute, what who said when, and what anyone said about anyone else in the past. For example, don't say "I put the tag here because G. wanted to say "x" and wouldn't stop reverting, and Y. said that G. is being disruptive, see his comment *here*." Say "The section says "x" and should say "y"" or "The section used to say "x" and should say "y" (which it now does), but not everyone agrees, for the following reasons: *1 *2"
This section has a "content" tag which indicates that the relevance of the section is under dispute.
Discussion:
This section has a "TotallyDisputed-section" tag which indicates that the neutrality and accuracy of the section is under dispute.
Discussion:
The section also has a "content" tag that questions the relevance of the section.
Discussion:
Well, so far we have a consensus of three, with the only dissenting vote presumably being Gene, who is still blocked until later today (72 hour block). I'm fascinated to see what his reasoning will be. -- Slashme 05:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
From Greg L: I very much look forward to addressing Gene’s issues (enumerated and explained in Disputed, above) in a structured environment. As I already did with two issues here ( “Sorting it out, above), we’ll be able to address these issues once and for all and be on with life. So while, I’m here, I’ll address another one: the central issue that got Gene started on this: that “weight” in the physical sciences is “force due to gravity”. Gene wrote above in his enumeration as follows:
When I told Gene of these facts above, he responded with “There's no reason for us to stoop to Encyclopedia Britannica.” He also said “Wikipedia is not a reliable source” and then linked “reliable source” to Wikipedia’s own Wikipedia:Reliable sources. He didn’t agree with either Wikipedia’s definition nor Encyclopedia Britannica’s. With regard to World Book, he responded only with “Now World Book too?” We should not feel like we have to change reality here on Wikipedia. It’s time to put this one to bed and move on.
As for Gene’s “…God's ordained meaning…” line, that charge is without foundation. The article is abundantly clear that there is a difference between the strict, scientific distinction and the common usage. The article states as follows: “In everyday usage, the weight of objects is often given in kilograms. Strictly speaking though, the kilogram is a unit of mass; the “weight” of an object is its gravitational force and is measured in newtons…” The article also states as follows: “In the physical sciences, the terms “ mass” and “ weight” are rigidly defined as separate measures in order to enforce clarity and precision. In everyday use, given that all masses on Earth have weight and this relationship is usually highly proportional, “weight” often serves to describe both properties, its meaning being dependent upon context.” It is only the above-cited professional print encyclopedias, not this article, that suggest that there is only one, God-ordained meaning of the word “weight.”
Greg L ( my talk) 16:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
In this edit more than five days ago, User:Timb66 corrected the second paragraph and removed, justifiably, the {{dubious}} tag that was there (something I'd have also indicated to have been appropriate above).
Then in
this edit with minor changes in the two subsequent edits, Greg L removed Timb66's corrections and restored the Greg L version which warranted the "dubious" tag in the first place.
I put it back to Timb66's version, but Greg insists on edit-warring and has restored his "dubious" version. Gene Nygaard 17:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
From Greg L: Our conventional understandings and observations of the common-vernacular use of the term “weight” are perfectly consistent with scienece and this article. One doesn’t have to suspend common sense to know that when most people speak of the “weight” of something that has had its magnitude expressed in kilograms, (such as when they talk about how “heavy” a 40 kg sack of concrete is), they are really and truly talking about the weight of the kilogram. People in real life rarely struggle with the inertia of massive objects. Sure, players of American football are concerned about inertia (mass) when they collide and are less concerned about the “weight” of the opposing player. But in most circumstances in daily life for most people—like backpacking—when people have problems with objects with too great of a mass, the difficulty is with their struggle against gravity; that is, the object’s “weight”, not the object’s inertial property (mass). Thus, in most cases in every-day vernacular, the term “weight” is used by laypersons in the literal, proper, scientific sense since it describes the property of “heaviness.” Accordingly, the proper scientific definition of “weight”—as used in this article—accurately describes the term as most commonly used and understood and as you all have described above.
Both the scientific distinction of mass and weight and the common-vernacular acceptance of the term are addressed in NIST Handbook 130, which states:
- V. "Mass" and "Weight." [NOTE 1, See page 6]
- The mass of an object is a measure of the object’s inertial property, or the amount of matter it contains. The weight of an object is a measure of the force exerted on the object by gravity, or the force needed to support it. The pull of gravity on the earth gives an object a downward acceleration of about 9.8 m/s2. In trade and commerce and everyday use, the term "weight" is often used as a synonym for "mass." The "net mass" or "net weight" declared on a label indicates that the package contains a specific amount of commodity exclusive of wrapping materials. The use of the term "mass" is predominant throughout the world, and is becoming increasingly common in the United States. (Added 1993)
- W. Use of the Terms "Mass" and "Weight." [NOTE 1, See page 6]
- When used in this handbook, the term "weight" means "mass." The term "weight" appears when inch-pound units are cited, or when both inch-pound and SI units are included in a requirement. The terms "mass" or "masses" are used when only SI units are cited in a requirement. The following note appears where the term "weight" is first used in a law or regulation.
- NOTE 1: When used in this law (or regulation), the term "weight" means "mass." (See paragraph V. and W. in Section I., Introduction, of NIST Handbook 130 for an explanation of these terms.) (Added 1993) 6"
It’s really quite simple: Trade and commerce legally allows the measure of mass (which is expressed in kilograms or pounds) to be called “weight”. Further, when non-scientists speak of a particular quantity that has had its measure expressed in kilograms, they refer to that quantity’s “weight,” and rightly so too: because it’s heavy. This is all perfectly consistent with the concept that “weight” is “force due to gravity.” This is not complex; spurious arguments shouldn’t lead anyone down blind logical alleys. Greg L ( my talk) 22:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | In everyday usage, the weight of objects is often given in kilograms. Strictly speaking though, the kilogram is a unit of mass; the “weight” of an object is its gravitational force and is measured in newtons (see also Kilogram-force). | ” |
“ | In everyday usage, the mass of an object in kilograms is often referred to as its weight, although strictly speaking the weight of an object is the gravitational force on it, measured in newtons (see also Kilogram-force). | ” |
I don’t think the original wording (“In everyday usage, the mass of an object in kilograms is often referred to as its weight”) can fairly be called flat “incorrect” but I find it somewhat misleading because of a subtlety. The difference is the current text (as I’ve revised it) only says a pure fact: “weight is often given in kilograms”. It doesn’t suggest what people “mean” or are referring to when they speak of the general property. I believe the old wording carries the connotation—an incorrect one IMO—that people actually think of the property as “mass” but incorrectly call it “weight”. I think it is quite clear based on common sense observation of the world around us that most people perceive the property of “how much” really and truly in terms of “weight”. We pick up a bag of potatoes to feel how heavy it is. We grunt a little and say it feels like so many kilograms. This everyday sense of the nature of the property has long been called “weight” in the English-speaking world and this lead to the precise scientific definition of “weight” to be “force due to gravity”. “Mass” and “inertia” are much so more obscure properties, that they seem overly scientific to the average layperson. That’s why the U.S. Government allows “Net Mass” to be called “Net Weight.” So simply saying “weight is often given in kilograms” seemed less loaded of a statement to me and absent any implication of what people mean. Further, I thought the word “weight” in that sentence was all-encompasing because it means either/or/both “weight,” as people commonly think of it, and “weight” as used in commerce.
For these reasons, I prefer the current, less loaded wording. Do you agree? Greg L ( my talk) 03:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)