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I cannot fathom why this paragraph would be relevent to the political situation or, indeed, need be mentioned beyond the borders of Oregon. Apart from the subject of the paragraph it was worded in a particularly provocative way. This is the paragraph under question:
Note the almost personal upset the writer seems to take (it is, of course, an offensive thing to do) using tabloid phrases such as "as if the video were a comedy sketch", etc. -- OldakQuill 07:58, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
I see that the video links keep changing, as does the size of the video. Can someone just do a md5sum of the original (if they have it), and always link to a version that matches? Dori | Talk 15:15, May 15, 2004 (UTC)
Can we call the 8.2 MB WMV file: "The unedited video, including the beheading of Nick Berg" if some people thinks that it has been edited before?
To me, an unedited video clip has to be unedited camera footage. If the originally released file has been already edited by its author or whoever made it available, it probably can't be unedited.
Can we call it "the uncensored video," or whatever name that describes it best? -- Toytoy
I removed this edit:
In context, that is a non sequitar. "Decapitation attacks" are used in the sense of removing leaders (heads of war or government) in the hope of pacifying the "body" (followers_. They may or may not kill people and, if they do, the death is not necessarily or even especially by decapitation. Nick Berg was literally decapitated. ( User:Cecropia)
I removed the links to different conspiracy theories. I think they are detailed sufficiently in the article and the links are best kept in the links section. Al-Jazeera is explicitly pointed out due to their status as the reaction point for the arab communities. - Tεx τ urε 20:55, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, so this is an attempt to dismiss any rational evaluation of the official account as conspiracy theories. Well, first of all that's POV and not a minor edit. There are two points that are incontrovertible:
Agreed? 2+2=4, not 5 and I am not a conspiracy theorist for saying this. (of course there are conspiracy theories around, and they should be mentioned as such, but that doesn't mean that everything is just a conspiracy theory.) (just a caveat: I haven't and won't watch this video, so maybe it's not as obvious as this. If so, I'll take back what I'm saying here.)
al-Jazeera should not be named explicitly because they did not come up with this, they are not the authors. IMHO, they go out of their to make it clear that these criticisms of the official account originate from bloggers precisely because they don't want to be mixed with conspiracy theorists. We should therefore not name al-Jazeera in this context, and it's got nothing to do with them being "the reaction point for the arab communities" 139.184.30.19 21:42, 17 May 2004 (UTC) User:pir
It has been claimed (on local radio) that Nick Berg, in addition to his living sister, had a sister who married an Iraqi and who died under mysterious circumstances. I've seen no mention of this in written sources. Is this another "conspiracy" type factoid? - Nunh-huh 23:12, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:"While the term conspiracy theory could refer to any theory positing the existence of a conspiracy (but as yet unproven), it is usually used by people as a disparaging rhetorical device to refer to ideas that, in their opinion, are:
Shouldn't we create a distinction between:
I removed the user:pir signatures form 213.84.9.252's edits, because they were not made by me. I made some edits under the IP 139.184.30.19 and similar IPs the other day because the computer I was using kept on logging me out, so I signed with my IP and a link to my user page as user:pir. I have no idea who 213.84.9.252 is or why she/he was signing with my login /n linking to my user page. I insist on my right to point ou these facts, and, while they amount to a curious inconsistency, I do not believe this to be a conspiracy ;) pir 17:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Why do we need a second video URL and I can't say I understand the text that was proposed with it at all. Anyone aware of some anti-semitic text nick was supposed to possess? Does this belong on the conspiracies page? - Tεx τ urε 12:14, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not doubting that it is possible Berg was killed first and then decapitated for "show and tell," but I'm surprised as the incautious statements made to the press by reputable medical doctors:
First of all, no doctor would (or could, at least in the U.S.) give any kind of diagnosis of cause of death without access to the patient. So they are speculating based on their video, which makes their opinions less "expert" and more like those of you and me, who see the videos and note similar issues. I'm especially surprised to see "forensic death expert Jon Norby" say that the video was "staged" as the "best" explanation. "Staged" is a loaded word. The way it was reported implies that it never happened. Better would have been to say that the video may have been "manipulated" to make it appear that Berg was alive at the time of the bedding.
Of course, someone has a pretty good idea of how he died--the people who autopsied his body (unless perhaps the head is missing). But if those doctors came out tomorrow and said "yes, the cause of death was directed related to the heading" how many people who say they were lying.
For my own part, it seems more likely to me than not that the killers killed him first and cut later, but I'm trying to point out, with all the conspiracy theories going around, that everybody has their own preconceptions and believes the "experts" they want to believe. -- Cecropia | Talk 15:00, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Maybe the name of Nick Berg conspiracy theories should be changed. I just created the name for lack of anything better. Kingturtle 21:58, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Anything on Voz de Aztlan is suspect. Besides being rabidly anti-Semitic and a hispanic supremacist group, they're well-known to photoshop, often poorly, many of the images they feature in their articles. They've removed a bunch of them after threats of lawsuits, but a few still remain [1]. -- Delirium 20:28, May 22, 2004 (UTC)
This was posted by 24.118.180.190 in the 20:50, 22 May 2004 revision:
THIS MESSAGE IS FOR RICKK:
What I said and what you deleted are not, as you claim, political propanganda and name-calling. They are facts. Which do you dispute?
(1) Nick Berg was not decapitated. Nick Berg had his head sawed off with a knife. Decapitation connotes the French execution method c. 1790, a much less painless way to die than the horror that Nick Berg suffered.
(2) Nick Berg's father is a very morally confused man. Anyone who blames this sort of savagery on the leader of a government that is a democracy and whose soldiers have fought and given up more lives to liberate other nations from the jack boot of dictatorships, is very morally confused.
(3) Muslims did not in general, condemn Nick Berg's murder. That is factually false. What they condemned was his mutilation (i.e. sawing off Berg's head) after he was ostensibly already dead.
I could go on... but this article is FAR from neutral in its very wording and tone. It sounds more like a AP or Reuters piece with all the entailing anti-American biases, than an entry fit for a real Encyclopedia, which this is not. If there is a "neutrality policy" this article as it was written clearly violates that policy.
Finally, sir, you are a morally confused if you believe that what I wrote was "propaganda."
I will never use this website again and I will recommend that others do not as well.
-Thomas K
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9544920%255E661,00.html says that "Mr Berg's family were told by US officials on Monday that a headless corpse found dumped in Baghdad on Saturday was their son."
These are the same "US officials" that told Nick Berg's family that he was in US custody, then told his family that he had not been in US custody, and a host of other lies and self-contradictions. "US officials" do not elaborate on how they were able to identify Nick Berg, given that he both was and was not in their custody at the same time. (Tea and no tea, anyone?) What exactly is the problem with citing the complete and utter lack of positive identification of a headless corpse? Energybone 16:49, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=821&list=/home.php& says "It began: "Here you are, FReepers. Here is the enemy” and listed "Michael S. Berg, Teacher, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, Inc." Just seven days after "Michael Berg" and "Prometheus Methods Tower Service" had come up on that Iraq war 'enemies' list, his son Nick Berg returned to Iraq under the business name of Prometheus Methods Tower Service."
This would tend to indicate that Prometheus Methods Tower Services was owned by Michael Berg. Although how Free Republic got wind of this is anybody's guess, since this "company" is NOT REGISTERED IN ANY STATE IN THE CONTINENTAL US, nor have they seemed to have engaged in any ADVERTISING or any ACTUAL WORK. Only one tiny local radio station claims that they intended to hire Nick Berg when he got back from Iraq to build a transmitter tower on SWAMPLAND.
Let's keep the conspiracy theories on the conspiracy article page and keep the fictionalizing out of Wikipedia. Discuss any facts that you don't believe here in the talk page before disputing them in the article. - Tεx τ urε 18:24, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Are you saying that five men secretly videotaping a murder is NOT a conspiracy theory? What's your basis for that conclusion, if you don't mind me asking? Are you basing it on anything remotely connected to reality or are your paranoiac fantasies the basis for this claim? Energybone 18:28, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Again, let's keep the conspiracy theories on the conspiracies article page. - Tεx τ urε 13:41, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If anyone has time, consider incorporating this news item into this article. I won't have to do so until late tonight. So, be my guest. :) Kingturtle 20:35, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
Moore says he will not release the Berg interview except to the family, arguing that it was not used in the film Farenheit 9/11. Maybe he's trying to stir up interest, or maybe he thinks "news management" is all right for political film directors, but not the government. -- Cecropia | Talk 22:53, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
Given Moore's well-known position on Iraq and the Bush administration, wouldn't the fact that Berg gave him a 20 minute interview be at odds with the claim in 'Travels and Detention' that "Berg, unlike most of his family, was a supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and of Bush administration policy."? I would assume he knew of Moore's work. Of course, if Berg really did support the war then that might explain Moore's reluctance to include his interview ;) 82.44.176.135 00:15, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
Recent interview with father (8/24/2004):
-- GD 03:26, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The entire problem can be solved by removing such photos, Videos, grisley & descriptive stories about this mans death, for gods sake, has he & his family not suffered enough?
It is NOT the presidents fault, maybe it is said to be in reaction of the US soldiers abusing the Iraqi prisoners, then by god, punish them to the full extent of Iraqi & U.S. law, Just because we are Americans, does not give us the right to abuse ANYONE in any manner, This action by our people should NOT be tolerated, but then again, the actions of Nick's murderers should not be tolerated either.
Do not blame the President, he did not force Nick to go to Iraq. Those of you whom do not stand behind the President in his decisions concerning this matter, do not deserve the right to claim American Citizenship.
How would ANY of you react if it were your relatives beheading that was posted on web sites and / or on TV ? (I rest my case.)
I was extremely angered, sickened & sad, a person that claimed to be my friend tricked me into seeing the video of Nick's beheading, that person was extremely sorry he did so after wards, you have to be a VERY sick individual to want to view this sort of media.
May god tender mercy in dealing with those of you whom post such.
Michael
(Prior Service in)
Texas Army National Guard
3rd/163rd Armored Cavalry
Are you kidding me? The problem goes away when you remove the photos and videos?? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Out of sight does not take it out of mind!
I think you are very naive to think that the government does not do things that we do not know about. Horrible things at that. I bet my life on the fact that some of those "sick individuals" are running our country.
How do you know that it is not the Presidents fault Nick was killed? I doubt that he said directly "kill him" but there is no solid proof either way, but there sure is alot stacked on the Conspiracy/Controversy side. How do you know that our government did not do this to take the heat away from the ignorant decisions to act like terrorists and abuse human beings?
I am an American and I have every right to be one. That's what it's all about, freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to think what I want. I might not agree with how the government runs this country but that does not make me any less of an American. I was born here and that is what I am whether you like it or not!
Your friend tricked you into watching the video? Did you watch the whole thing? I bet you did. That was your choice. If you are so outraged what are you doing reading controversy??
Of course how sad for the Berg Family. I am sure that much more of their suffering is due to the fact that they don't know what happened. I am also willing to bet that it is sites like this that they are using to get answers. It's all about choice.
I don't need mercy from God. Guess what God loves us all no matter what we do AND everything happens for a reason.
Wow, when searching for Nick Berg, this page is the second site...expect a lot more emotional (irrelevant) posts like the above. Wyllium 22:52, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, this article is about Nick Berg being dead, which is his only claim to fame. Removing that from the head, especially with "Nick Berg is" (rather than "was") is a backdoor way to attempt to push Energybone's POV that he is really alive. -- Cecropia | Talk 04:56, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Apparently you haven't heard that Nick Berg is the inventor of Bovl Blocks. I'd say since he did that BEFORE this video was released, that's the meat and potatoes. Quit trying to put the desert before the entree. What's the matter with you? Enough of the Gestapo crap already. I realize you are vested in perpetrating this hoax, but please, spare the rest of us who aren't sheep. Energybone 05:09, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
POV? You want to talk about POV? Your repeated insistence that he is dead is POV, and it's infested that article like a cancer. Don't talk to me about POV, you have not got a beheaded leg to stand on, I'm afraid. Energybone 05:11, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Energybone, no matter what your opinion, you can be courteous. Or you can be banned. Meelar 05:14, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
This Nick Berg article is an absolute rubbish heap. It really needs to be razed and re-written from scratch, but we'll see what happens from incrementalism. Already the forces of fancy are on the move to keep the facts out of the front. Energybone 05:17, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
The section 'Claimed Link to Zacarias Moussaoui' says quite boldly that Berg encountered Moussaoui on a bus and allowed him to use his laptop. This does not reflect what was said in the linked article. In fact, it says that the encounter was with *an acquaintance* of Moussaoui. I think it is important to make the distinction clear. 82.44.176.135 00:04, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
wtf is wrong with the top photo? it messes up the whole article. blankfaze | •• 03:40, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
What's the point of linking (clickable or not) to a "shock site that tricks people into viewing Nick Berg's execution"? -- Conti| ✉ 16:56, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)
The point is to show that people have incorporated the Nick Berg execution video into a website designed to offend people. WhisperToMe 19:14, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This whole discussion is pointless. No matter how over and over people might talk about this, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ENCYCLOPEDIA - NOT A FREAK SHOW! You want to see gore? Go to roten.com or something like that. This is not only revolting, but it is an insult to the guy's family as well. And I wouldn't like to participate on a project/community where people past such links, no matter the rethoric or epistemy used for such.
Remove the links. If you want to find such things, use a peer-to-peer network client such as Kazaa or Shareza. (anon postings)
NO! Look up. We had this discussion and we say keep. WhisperToMe 22:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I reverted User:168.209.97.34 again, simply because he not only reverted my edits, but also those made by another user after I did the revert. The site which the anon links to (now a redirect to http://survivalist.co.za/video/) has changed every time I've reverted him. The first time, it contained not only a link to the Nick Berg video, but also to another decapitation video. My opinion was that there is no need to not softlink directly to the video, so I reverted him. The second time I got a 404, so I reverted again. Then it contained links to even more decapitation videos and now there is a warning above these links, stating "WARNING: GRAPHIC VIDEOS - DO NOT CLICK IF YOU ARE UNDER 18". I still see no reason to link to a page which has links to pretty much all of those videos. Furthermore, this article already has a strong warning about the video, it's not needed to warn twice. The "age restriction" will a) not stop anyone from clicking the video, and b) may not be correct in many countries anyways, so I see no reason to mention this as well. Everyone should know for himself if he wants to see the video or not. On a further notice, I went to http://survivalist.co.za/ just out of curiosity, and to my suprise I found a wikipedia mirror with a google ad on top. I don't have a clue about what happens there, but that led to my decision to remove the link from the article until this is being discussed here. -- Conti| ✉ 15:04, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
-- I would have reverted that other edit also because all it did was link the words "orange" and "businessman". I think that's a bit overboard - we all know what orange and a businessman is. As of the link to the decapitation video, it is considered bad manners to link directly and bypass any warnings the website wants to offer their visitors. Sure it doesn't ensure that the person clicking the link is over 18, but it's arguably better than nothing Besides, why did you remove one and then then leave the other link as a "softlink"?
Now it's "beheadingvideos.co.za" with the meta description "Watch Iraqi Terrorists Decapitate Innocent Civilians" ... am I really the only one who'd like to see such a link gone? There are other links that do not make a freak show out of this, we should use these links. Any comments?-- Conti| ✉ 11:17, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
WhisperToMe, a very careful and thoughtful contributer, recently added
Are you sure? The videos I've watched don't show this. Are you perhaps confusing it with a different beheading? – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 12:01, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Since the linked article is only available by subscription, which I do not have, the context and relevance of this paragraph are not apparent. Can anyone explain it? Who is saying "the war. . .is one of liberation" and "offer[ing] endless, righteous resistance"? And what does this have to do with the subject of this article? None of this is clear. —No-One Jones (m) 23:23, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)'
It's disputed that Hamas and especially Hizbullah (a political party in Lebanon that won seats in parliament) are terrorist groups. Most Arab countries consider them "freedom fighters." They are terrorist according to whom? Israel and the US? Israel is a terrorist state according to Iran. Should we insert the word "terrorist" after "Israel" every time because Iranian government says so? OneGuy 10:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
We have a policy on making things as simple as possible for users. For example, in Wikipedia:Spoiler warning, it is said that "An additional common means of hiding spoilers from readers on a website is the practice of changing the color of the text to match that of the background of the webpage. This will render the text unreadable until it is highlighted by the reader by selecting it with the mouse. This is also called hidden text. This practice is unacceptable here, because it requires explanation to readers unfamiliar with the practice, and because it may be incompatible with computer accessibility devices such as screen readers (besides being an ugly hack)." To me, this seems like a similar unacceptable practice. And I really don't buy the "keep people from accidentally clicking" line. We have links to Last Measure and other shock sites. This is nowhere near as annoying; it's a simple video file that one could right click and save, but with the links gone you have to use some sort of download manager or paste the link into the address bar, causing it to play in many browser setups. -- SPUI 20:14, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An anon is insisting on a link to War profiteer on this article. Since he was no more than a lowly worker, this claim is spurious. Removing the link. - Tεx τ urε 15:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
A war profiteer is any person or organization that makes profits (rightly or wrongly) from warfare or by selling weapons and other goods to one or even both of the parties at war in their own or in foreign countries.
I will never forget the fear on Nick berg's face. I will never forget the horrible way he died. Never will I understand it. Never will I ever forgive it. 71.28.243.28 01:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this statement about Hamas and Hezbollah is NPOV:
While I can certainly see why that could be regarded as insincerity, that depends on the two acts being morally equivalent, and that is still debatable. Attacks on people in Iraq and Israel are different for a number of reasons; one of these is that the "occupying force" in Iraq has not promised to be there indefinitely, while that in Israel obviously has (otherwise the state of Israel would not exist).
I suggest that the statement be reworded to ascribe this position to a person or group. Would anybody care to volunteer? -- Saforrest 20:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
When I saw this I was disgusted. Truly these Terroists must be captured. I may sound weird but just capture them and put them in prizon for life. A disgrace to this world. Curse those Terroists.
Berg's email address had been used by Moussaoui prior to the September 11, 2001 attacks. According to Berg's father, Nick Berg had had a chance encounter with an acquaintance of Moussaoui on a bus in Norman, Oklahoma. This person had asked to borrow Berg's laptop computer to send an email. Berg gave the details of his own email account and password, which were later used by Moussaoui.
I'm curious about this. The infrastructure to send email from a bus simply didn't exist back then (no wi-fi, etc). So why would Berg lend out the laptop thinking that someone could email from a bus? Is the dad just not understanding technology? Something else going on?
-- 71.36.52.230 15:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
We need a category called "Modern Victims of Islamic Decapitation" Scented Guano 07:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the Nick Berg conspiracy theories page got deleted without due process. It was voted keep here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Nick_Berg_conspiracy_theories. Has something happened since then? Was it merged? Where did this article go? - ShadowyCabal 10:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've seen this touched on a few times, and it doesn't seem like it has been changed at all....
This article is extremely one-sided about the video evidence of his death, and other theories as to the videos validity should at least be mentioned and/or linked quickly within the article.
I have removed the direct link to the alleged "real" video.-- Jimbo Wales 14:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
c
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I cannot fathom why this paragraph would be relevent to the political situation or, indeed, need be mentioned beyond the borders of Oregon. Apart from the subject of the paragraph it was worded in a particularly provocative way. This is the paragraph under question:
Note the almost personal upset the writer seems to take (it is, of course, an offensive thing to do) using tabloid phrases such as "as if the video were a comedy sketch", etc. -- OldakQuill 07:58, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
I see that the video links keep changing, as does the size of the video. Can someone just do a md5sum of the original (if they have it), and always link to a version that matches? Dori | Talk 15:15, May 15, 2004 (UTC)
Can we call the 8.2 MB WMV file: "The unedited video, including the beheading of Nick Berg" if some people thinks that it has been edited before?
To me, an unedited video clip has to be unedited camera footage. If the originally released file has been already edited by its author or whoever made it available, it probably can't be unedited.
Can we call it "the uncensored video," or whatever name that describes it best? -- Toytoy
I removed this edit:
In context, that is a non sequitar. "Decapitation attacks" are used in the sense of removing leaders (heads of war or government) in the hope of pacifying the "body" (followers_. They may or may not kill people and, if they do, the death is not necessarily or even especially by decapitation. Nick Berg was literally decapitated. ( User:Cecropia)
I removed the links to different conspiracy theories. I think they are detailed sufficiently in the article and the links are best kept in the links section. Al-Jazeera is explicitly pointed out due to their status as the reaction point for the arab communities. - Tεx τ urε 20:55, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, so this is an attempt to dismiss any rational evaluation of the official account as conspiracy theories. Well, first of all that's POV and not a minor edit. There are two points that are incontrovertible:
Agreed? 2+2=4, not 5 and I am not a conspiracy theorist for saying this. (of course there are conspiracy theories around, and they should be mentioned as such, but that doesn't mean that everything is just a conspiracy theory.) (just a caveat: I haven't and won't watch this video, so maybe it's not as obvious as this. If so, I'll take back what I'm saying here.)
al-Jazeera should not be named explicitly because they did not come up with this, they are not the authors. IMHO, they go out of their to make it clear that these criticisms of the official account originate from bloggers precisely because they don't want to be mixed with conspiracy theorists. We should therefore not name al-Jazeera in this context, and it's got nothing to do with them being "the reaction point for the arab communities" 139.184.30.19 21:42, 17 May 2004 (UTC) User:pir
It has been claimed (on local radio) that Nick Berg, in addition to his living sister, had a sister who married an Iraqi and who died under mysterious circumstances. I've seen no mention of this in written sources. Is this another "conspiracy" type factoid? - Nunh-huh 23:12, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:"While the term conspiracy theory could refer to any theory positing the existence of a conspiracy (but as yet unproven), it is usually used by people as a disparaging rhetorical device to refer to ideas that, in their opinion, are:
Shouldn't we create a distinction between:
I removed the user:pir signatures form 213.84.9.252's edits, because they were not made by me. I made some edits under the IP 139.184.30.19 and similar IPs the other day because the computer I was using kept on logging me out, so I signed with my IP and a link to my user page as user:pir. I have no idea who 213.84.9.252 is or why she/he was signing with my login /n linking to my user page. I insist on my right to point ou these facts, and, while they amount to a curious inconsistency, I do not believe this to be a conspiracy ;) pir 17:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Why do we need a second video URL and I can't say I understand the text that was proposed with it at all. Anyone aware of some anti-semitic text nick was supposed to possess? Does this belong on the conspiracies page? - Tεx τ urε 12:14, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not doubting that it is possible Berg was killed first and then decapitated for "show and tell," but I'm surprised as the incautious statements made to the press by reputable medical doctors:
First of all, no doctor would (or could, at least in the U.S.) give any kind of diagnosis of cause of death without access to the patient. So they are speculating based on their video, which makes their opinions less "expert" and more like those of you and me, who see the videos and note similar issues. I'm especially surprised to see "forensic death expert Jon Norby" say that the video was "staged" as the "best" explanation. "Staged" is a loaded word. The way it was reported implies that it never happened. Better would have been to say that the video may have been "manipulated" to make it appear that Berg was alive at the time of the bedding.
Of course, someone has a pretty good idea of how he died--the people who autopsied his body (unless perhaps the head is missing). But if those doctors came out tomorrow and said "yes, the cause of death was directed related to the heading" how many people who say they were lying.
For my own part, it seems more likely to me than not that the killers killed him first and cut later, but I'm trying to point out, with all the conspiracy theories going around, that everybody has their own preconceptions and believes the "experts" they want to believe. -- Cecropia | Talk 15:00, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Maybe the name of Nick Berg conspiracy theories should be changed. I just created the name for lack of anything better. Kingturtle 21:58, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Anything on Voz de Aztlan is suspect. Besides being rabidly anti-Semitic and a hispanic supremacist group, they're well-known to photoshop, often poorly, many of the images they feature in their articles. They've removed a bunch of them after threats of lawsuits, but a few still remain [1]. -- Delirium 20:28, May 22, 2004 (UTC)
This was posted by 24.118.180.190 in the 20:50, 22 May 2004 revision:
THIS MESSAGE IS FOR RICKK:
What I said and what you deleted are not, as you claim, political propanganda and name-calling. They are facts. Which do you dispute?
(1) Nick Berg was not decapitated. Nick Berg had his head sawed off with a knife. Decapitation connotes the French execution method c. 1790, a much less painless way to die than the horror that Nick Berg suffered.
(2) Nick Berg's father is a very morally confused man. Anyone who blames this sort of savagery on the leader of a government that is a democracy and whose soldiers have fought and given up more lives to liberate other nations from the jack boot of dictatorships, is very morally confused.
(3) Muslims did not in general, condemn Nick Berg's murder. That is factually false. What they condemned was his mutilation (i.e. sawing off Berg's head) after he was ostensibly already dead.
I could go on... but this article is FAR from neutral in its very wording and tone. It sounds more like a AP or Reuters piece with all the entailing anti-American biases, than an entry fit for a real Encyclopedia, which this is not. If there is a "neutrality policy" this article as it was written clearly violates that policy.
Finally, sir, you are a morally confused if you believe that what I wrote was "propaganda."
I will never use this website again and I will recommend that others do not as well.
-Thomas K
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9544920%255E661,00.html says that "Mr Berg's family were told by US officials on Monday that a headless corpse found dumped in Baghdad on Saturday was their son."
These are the same "US officials" that told Nick Berg's family that he was in US custody, then told his family that he had not been in US custody, and a host of other lies and self-contradictions. "US officials" do not elaborate on how they were able to identify Nick Berg, given that he both was and was not in their custody at the same time. (Tea and no tea, anyone?) What exactly is the problem with citing the complete and utter lack of positive identification of a headless corpse? Energybone 16:49, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=821&list=/home.php& says "It began: "Here you are, FReepers. Here is the enemy” and listed "Michael S. Berg, Teacher, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, Inc." Just seven days after "Michael Berg" and "Prometheus Methods Tower Service" had come up on that Iraq war 'enemies' list, his son Nick Berg returned to Iraq under the business name of Prometheus Methods Tower Service."
This would tend to indicate that Prometheus Methods Tower Services was owned by Michael Berg. Although how Free Republic got wind of this is anybody's guess, since this "company" is NOT REGISTERED IN ANY STATE IN THE CONTINENTAL US, nor have they seemed to have engaged in any ADVERTISING or any ACTUAL WORK. Only one tiny local radio station claims that they intended to hire Nick Berg when he got back from Iraq to build a transmitter tower on SWAMPLAND.
Let's keep the conspiracy theories on the conspiracy article page and keep the fictionalizing out of Wikipedia. Discuss any facts that you don't believe here in the talk page before disputing them in the article. - Tεx τ urε 18:24, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Are you saying that five men secretly videotaping a murder is NOT a conspiracy theory? What's your basis for that conclusion, if you don't mind me asking? Are you basing it on anything remotely connected to reality or are your paranoiac fantasies the basis for this claim? Energybone 18:28, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Again, let's keep the conspiracy theories on the conspiracies article page. - Tεx τ urε 13:41, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If anyone has time, consider incorporating this news item into this article. I won't have to do so until late tonight. So, be my guest. :) Kingturtle 20:35, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
Moore says he will not release the Berg interview except to the family, arguing that it was not used in the film Farenheit 9/11. Maybe he's trying to stir up interest, or maybe he thinks "news management" is all right for political film directors, but not the government. -- Cecropia | Talk 22:53, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
Given Moore's well-known position on Iraq and the Bush administration, wouldn't the fact that Berg gave him a 20 minute interview be at odds with the claim in 'Travels and Detention' that "Berg, unlike most of his family, was a supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and of Bush administration policy."? I would assume he knew of Moore's work. Of course, if Berg really did support the war then that might explain Moore's reluctance to include his interview ;) 82.44.176.135 00:15, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
Recent interview with father (8/24/2004):
-- GD 03:26, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The entire problem can be solved by removing such photos, Videos, grisley & descriptive stories about this mans death, for gods sake, has he & his family not suffered enough?
It is NOT the presidents fault, maybe it is said to be in reaction of the US soldiers abusing the Iraqi prisoners, then by god, punish them to the full extent of Iraqi & U.S. law, Just because we are Americans, does not give us the right to abuse ANYONE in any manner, This action by our people should NOT be tolerated, but then again, the actions of Nick's murderers should not be tolerated either.
Do not blame the President, he did not force Nick to go to Iraq. Those of you whom do not stand behind the President in his decisions concerning this matter, do not deserve the right to claim American Citizenship.
How would ANY of you react if it were your relatives beheading that was posted on web sites and / or on TV ? (I rest my case.)
I was extremely angered, sickened & sad, a person that claimed to be my friend tricked me into seeing the video of Nick's beheading, that person was extremely sorry he did so after wards, you have to be a VERY sick individual to want to view this sort of media.
May god tender mercy in dealing with those of you whom post such.
Michael
(Prior Service in)
Texas Army National Guard
3rd/163rd Armored Cavalry
Are you kidding me? The problem goes away when you remove the photos and videos?? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Out of sight does not take it out of mind!
I think you are very naive to think that the government does not do things that we do not know about. Horrible things at that. I bet my life on the fact that some of those "sick individuals" are running our country.
How do you know that it is not the Presidents fault Nick was killed? I doubt that he said directly "kill him" but there is no solid proof either way, but there sure is alot stacked on the Conspiracy/Controversy side. How do you know that our government did not do this to take the heat away from the ignorant decisions to act like terrorists and abuse human beings?
I am an American and I have every right to be one. That's what it's all about, freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to think what I want. I might not agree with how the government runs this country but that does not make me any less of an American. I was born here and that is what I am whether you like it or not!
Your friend tricked you into watching the video? Did you watch the whole thing? I bet you did. That was your choice. If you are so outraged what are you doing reading controversy??
Of course how sad for the Berg Family. I am sure that much more of their suffering is due to the fact that they don't know what happened. I am also willing to bet that it is sites like this that they are using to get answers. It's all about choice.
I don't need mercy from God. Guess what God loves us all no matter what we do AND everything happens for a reason.
Wow, when searching for Nick Berg, this page is the second site...expect a lot more emotional (irrelevant) posts like the above. Wyllium 22:52, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, this article is about Nick Berg being dead, which is his only claim to fame. Removing that from the head, especially with "Nick Berg is" (rather than "was") is a backdoor way to attempt to push Energybone's POV that he is really alive. -- Cecropia | Talk 04:56, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Apparently you haven't heard that Nick Berg is the inventor of Bovl Blocks. I'd say since he did that BEFORE this video was released, that's the meat and potatoes. Quit trying to put the desert before the entree. What's the matter with you? Enough of the Gestapo crap already. I realize you are vested in perpetrating this hoax, but please, spare the rest of us who aren't sheep. Energybone 05:09, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
POV? You want to talk about POV? Your repeated insistence that he is dead is POV, and it's infested that article like a cancer. Don't talk to me about POV, you have not got a beheaded leg to stand on, I'm afraid. Energybone 05:11, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Energybone, no matter what your opinion, you can be courteous. Or you can be banned. Meelar 05:14, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
This Nick Berg article is an absolute rubbish heap. It really needs to be razed and re-written from scratch, but we'll see what happens from incrementalism. Already the forces of fancy are on the move to keep the facts out of the front. Energybone 05:17, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
The section 'Claimed Link to Zacarias Moussaoui' says quite boldly that Berg encountered Moussaoui on a bus and allowed him to use his laptop. This does not reflect what was said in the linked article. In fact, it says that the encounter was with *an acquaintance* of Moussaoui. I think it is important to make the distinction clear. 82.44.176.135 00:04, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
wtf is wrong with the top photo? it messes up the whole article. blankfaze | •• 03:40, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
What's the point of linking (clickable or not) to a "shock site that tricks people into viewing Nick Berg's execution"? -- Conti| ✉ 16:56, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)
The point is to show that people have incorporated the Nick Berg execution video into a website designed to offend people. WhisperToMe 19:14, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This whole discussion is pointless. No matter how over and over people might talk about this, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ENCYCLOPEDIA - NOT A FREAK SHOW! You want to see gore? Go to roten.com or something like that. This is not only revolting, but it is an insult to the guy's family as well. And I wouldn't like to participate on a project/community where people past such links, no matter the rethoric or epistemy used for such.
Remove the links. If you want to find such things, use a peer-to-peer network client such as Kazaa or Shareza. (anon postings)
NO! Look up. We had this discussion and we say keep. WhisperToMe 22:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I reverted User:168.209.97.34 again, simply because he not only reverted my edits, but also those made by another user after I did the revert. The site which the anon links to (now a redirect to http://survivalist.co.za/video/) has changed every time I've reverted him. The first time, it contained not only a link to the Nick Berg video, but also to another decapitation video. My opinion was that there is no need to not softlink directly to the video, so I reverted him. The second time I got a 404, so I reverted again. Then it contained links to even more decapitation videos and now there is a warning above these links, stating "WARNING: GRAPHIC VIDEOS - DO NOT CLICK IF YOU ARE UNDER 18". I still see no reason to link to a page which has links to pretty much all of those videos. Furthermore, this article already has a strong warning about the video, it's not needed to warn twice. The "age restriction" will a) not stop anyone from clicking the video, and b) may not be correct in many countries anyways, so I see no reason to mention this as well. Everyone should know for himself if he wants to see the video or not. On a further notice, I went to http://survivalist.co.za/ just out of curiosity, and to my suprise I found a wikipedia mirror with a google ad on top. I don't have a clue about what happens there, but that led to my decision to remove the link from the article until this is being discussed here. -- Conti| ✉ 15:04, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
-- I would have reverted that other edit also because all it did was link the words "orange" and "businessman". I think that's a bit overboard - we all know what orange and a businessman is. As of the link to the decapitation video, it is considered bad manners to link directly and bypass any warnings the website wants to offer their visitors. Sure it doesn't ensure that the person clicking the link is over 18, but it's arguably better than nothing Besides, why did you remove one and then then leave the other link as a "softlink"?
Now it's "beheadingvideos.co.za" with the meta description "Watch Iraqi Terrorists Decapitate Innocent Civilians" ... am I really the only one who'd like to see such a link gone? There are other links that do not make a freak show out of this, we should use these links. Any comments?-- Conti| ✉ 11:17, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
WhisperToMe, a very careful and thoughtful contributer, recently added
Are you sure? The videos I've watched don't show this. Are you perhaps confusing it with a different beheading? – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 12:01, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Since the linked article is only available by subscription, which I do not have, the context and relevance of this paragraph are not apparent. Can anyone explain it? Who is saying "the war. . .is one of liberation" and "offer[ing] endless, righteous resistance"? And what does this have to do with the subject of this article? None of this is clear. —No-One Jones (m) 23:23, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)'
It's disputed that Hamas and especially Hizbullah (a political party in Lebanon that won seats in parliament) are terrorist groups. Most Arab countries consider them "freedom fighters." They are terrorist according to whom? Israel and the US? Israel is a terrorist state according to Iran. Should we insert the word "terrorist" after "Israel" every time because Iranian government says so? OneGuy 10:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
We have a policy on making things as simple as possible for users. For example, in Wikipedia:Spoiler warning, it is said that "An additional common means of hiding spoilers from readers on a website is the practice of changing the color of the text to match that of the background of the webpage. This will render the text unreadable until it is highlighted by the reader by selecting it with the mouse. This is also called hidden text. This practice is unacceptable here, because it requires explanation to readers unfamiliar with the practice, and because it may be incompatible with computer accessibility devices such as screen readers (besides being an ugly hack)." To me, this seems like a similar unacceptable practice. And I really don't buy the "keep people from accidentally clicking" line. We have links to Last Measure and other shock sites. This is nowhere near as annoying; it's a simple video file that one could right click and save, but with the links gone you have to use some sort of download manager or paste the link into the address bar, causing it to play in many browser setups. -- SPUI 20:14, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An anon is insisting on a link to War profiteer on this article. Since he was no more than a lowly worker, this claim is spurious. Removing the link. - Tεx τ urε 15:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
A war profiteer is any person or organization that makes profits (rightly or wrongly) from warfare or by selling weapons and other goods to one or even both of the parties at war in their own or in foreign countries.
I will never forget the fear on Nick berg's face. I will never forget the horrible way he died. Never will I understand it. Never will I ever forgive it. 71.28.243.28 01:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this statement about Hamas and Hezbollah is NPOV:
While I can certainly see why that could be regarded as insincerity, that depends on the two acts being morally equivalent, and that is still debatable. Attacks on people in Iraq and Israel are different for a number of reasons; one of these is that the "occupying force" in Iraq has not promised to be there indefinitely, while that in Israel obviously has (otherwise the state of Israel would not exist).
I suggest that the statement be reworded to ascribe this position to a person or group. Would anybody care to volunteer? -- Saforrest 20:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
When I saw this I was disgusted. Truly these Terroists must be captured. I may sound weird but just capture them and put them in prizon for life. A disgrace to this world. Curse those Terroists.
Berg's email address had been used by Moussaoui prior to the September 11, 2001 attacks. According to Berg's father, Nick Berg had had a chance encounter with an acquaintance of Moussaoui on a bus in Norman, Oklahoma. This person had asked to borrow Berg's laptop computer to send an email. Berg gave the details of his own email account and password, which were later used by Moussaoui.
I'm curious about this. The infrastructure to send email from a bus simply didn't exist back then (no wi-fi, etc). So why would Berg lend out the laptop thinking that someone could email from a bus? Is the dad just not understanding technology? Something else going on?
-- 71.36.52.230 15:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
We need a category called "Modern Victims of Islamic Decapitation" Scented Guano 07:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the Nick Berg conspiracy theories page got deleted without due process. It was voted keep here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Nick_Berg_conspiracy_theories. Has something happened since then? Was it merged? Where did this article go? - ShadowyCabal 10:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've seen this touched on a few times, and it doesn't seem like it has been changed at all....
This article is extremely one-sided about the video evidence of his death, and other theories as to the videos validity should at least be mentioned and/or linked quickly within the article.
I have removed the direct link to the alleged "real" video.-- Jimbo Wales 14:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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