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Archive 1 |
@ WikiCleanerMan: "Naël Case" was not the name of the person. "Case" is the noun meaning "affair", "scandal", "criminal event". Naël was an early spelling mistake by the media. He is now called "Nahel M." His full last name not been made public. GrandEscogriffe ( talk) 16:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Banana50iq The contributions you've made to the article consist of removing a reliable source in favor of three tweets and uncited speculation about the victim's character. They include misuse of external links and are not written in an encyclopedic tone. Please discuss any changes you want to make here, before adding reverting them back into the article. :3 F4U ( they /it) 23:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Who rented the car which Nahel was driving without a licence? Why wasn't the renter driving? Jim 2 Michael ( talk) 14:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Nahel M. rented the car through an application that did not require any documents." Nil Einne ( talk) 15:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Killing of Nael M seems to be the same article, should it be merged into this one? FatalFit | ✉ | ✓ 16:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
According to this source https://www.nicematin.com/faits-divers/emeutes-dans-les-banlieues-le-jeune-homme-blesse-durant-une-attaque-est-decede-858266, a 21-year-old man has also died due to the riots. How do I edit this in? Brocen ( talk) 15:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
people are putting porn on this page so semi protect it Sebbog13 ( talk) 10:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
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Top section: Change “The official version of events” to “Initial reporting on the incident, informed by police statements,” Trilomonk ( talk) 16:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
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In the intro, please mention that he is of Moroccan and Algerian descent. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/world/europe/nahel-france-police-shooting-nanterre.html 2600:100C:A211:73E1:78BC:D15B:EA1D:2C4 ( talk) 19:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Is there any reliable source for the subject's surname, and therefore the title of the page? My Google News only shows it on Yahoo, which isn't the best for fact checking or non-Anglosphere stories, in my personal opinion. French Wikipedia has the surname in one reference, but that's probably added by an over-eager editor, as the source itself uses just the initial in the title. [2] This is very basic WP:V stuff, how can an article be titled after an assumption? Unknown Temptation ( talk) 19:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
The current content of Background section is quite woke - along the lines of "police is evil, arabs are discriminated". No mentions of real context - recurrent terrorist attacks by islamists in France, no-go zones, arab ghettos, elevated terror threat levels for years, with military patrols in cities - the context explaining why French police gets nervous in the situation this killing took place. Birdofpreyru ( talk) 10:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
islamistsand the idea that France having a high incidence of terrorism is necessary context suggests to me that the concern here is not in good faith. Kingsif ( talk) 03:42, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The current subsection on the background of Merzouk is very confusing. It says that he did not have a criminal record, and then immediately after says: “But he was "known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest," and in fact had been charged with resisting the previous weekendand five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of narcotics.”
The information in this paragraph seems to contradict the opening sentence. It says he did not have a criminal record, and then elaborates the details of a lengthy criminal record. Is there a technical definition of “criminal record” being used here? If so, I think that definition should be elaborated, so that the paragraph makes sense. Is it that he was never convicted in these 15 incidents? Or that he was not charged?
In either of these cases, I would think it would be more accurate to say something like “Merzouk has not been charged or convicted in any criminal case, however he does have an extensive record of contact with law enforcement.” The rest of the paragraph would make more sense in that case. Currently it is a non-sequitur. EthanZappa ( talk) 03:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Is there a technical definition of “criminal record” being used here?- a "criminal record" has always referred to convictions. This does not need to be spelled out. Kingsif ( talk) 03:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I have a proposal. Should the 2023 French Race Riots be split into its own article named 2023 French Race Riots? The template in the Nationwide unrest section has it named as that. Cwater1 ( talk) 15:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Merzouk rented the car through an application that did not require any documents. [1]
References
I'm gonna boldly remove this bit for now, because it seems like a Frenchism that doesn't really make sense without more context in English. An application is a document. Are we talking about an "app" like on your phone? The source doesn't offer any clarity. GMG talk 12:10, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
The article cited to corroborate the fact that the video challenged the version of event provided by cops(1) is itself citing an article(2) from 2022 to corroborate its statement, I hope you see the problem here. I tried and I cannot find the original police statement to verify that claim. All other news site points towards Le Parisien to report the fact that the police allegedly lied. This is really weird. Can we find that original statement? If not it seems like this whole section should be rewritten to account for this incongruency.
2. https://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/refus-dobtemperer-ces-versions-qui-saffrontent-apres-les-tirs-mortels-de-policiers-a-paris-07-06-2022-B5LPKFQF2BAXVINWAI3ILAMBQQ.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by Some1 looking ( talk • contribs) 23:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
I'm new here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the rule of thumb is that each sentence in the introduction should be elaborated upon in the body section, and the statistics in the introduction about cars being destroyed and protesters being arrested in the subsequent protests already exists down in the 'Nationwide Unrest' section. Should the introduction sentence be cut? Trilomonk ( talk) 18:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
I was struck by the initial reactions section, insofar as, in contrast to what the article reports, both Kylian Mbappé ( speaking for the French football team) and Nahel's grandmother have called for an end to the riots. Perhaps these elements have not been added because of the name of the section?
I also just finished reading an article in Le Monde ( §) about the €1 million raised in 4 days on gofundme for the family of the police officer... not sure what to make of that, but it's rather a lot of money. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 16:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
As someone who speaks French, this is not what can be heard on the video found in this very article. What is heard is Nahel's voice, less loud because inside the vehicle, saying to the officer "Pas dans la tête!" ("Not in the head!") as he is getting punched in the face. The officer only says "Coupe!" ("cut", aka "turn off the engine") repeatedly and "Depêche toi!" ("quickly"). Nahel then says "Tu m’as foutu un coup dans la tête!" ("You hit me in the head!") to which the policeman answers "Coupe!" and then the conversation ends. 90.119.26.215 ( talk) 18:27, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research.So it seems that it is fine to attempt to translate what is said in the video. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 23:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The current version of the "Shooting" section states as course of events that led to the shooting: "Nahel, who had Algerian heritage, was stopped by two police officers at approximately 8:30 am (CEST) near the François Arago crossing, close to the Nelson Mandela Square, due to traffic violations." This gives the impression that the police officers overreacted with drawn guns to a harmless "traffic violation" like switching lanes without signaling. According to an article of Reuters however, the police officers had tried to perform a first (routine) traffic stop of Nahel Merzouk for the illegal use of a bus lane before the shooting. Instead of complying, Nahel Merzouk sped off and committed not only several additional traffic offences, but also endangered the life of a pedestrian and a cyclist due to his reckless driving. When the police officers were finally able to approach his car - which had stopped because of a traffic jam - they were thus not just approaching someone "due to traffic violations" but someone who had just committed several felonies, had fled from a traffic stop and was still in control of a deadly weapon (his car). The current version of the "Shooting" section ommits all these facts and should be rewritten in a way that mention these facts and thus gives a more balanced description that explains the "guns drawn"-approach of the police officers. MiBerG ( talk) 00:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I think 'Killing of Nahel Merzouk' and 'Nahel Merzouk Protests' should be merged into a single article as they presently overlap so heavily. All of the information on the former could and should be placed on the latter. CoyotesKenning ( talk) 08:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
What the heck does this mean? Resisting arrest, driving without insurance, and drug dealing are all crimes where I live. Also according to the family lawyers, so not sure this is reliable enough to just go in the body without attribution. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 01:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Killing of Nahel Merzouk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Posted without reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk&diff=1164076667&oldid=1164018423
Please, in the sentence: "On 19 July 2016, Adama Traoré, a 24-year-old black man in France, with a heavy criminal record, died while in custody after being restrained and apprehended by the police." delete ", with a heavy criminal record,".
This is character assassination of Nahel. From the the « fachosphère ». Source: [5] Libération "Sur France Info, ce mercredi 28 juin, l’avocate Me Jennifer Campla a répété que l’adolescent «n’a jamais été condamné, il a un casier judiciaire vierge»" → *translation service* → "he had a virgin criminal record" 91.54.30.183 ( talk) 00:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
{{
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template. —
Paper9oll (
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10:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Nahel's name is not "also spelled Naël", and the source that is cited contains nothing of the sort. Some medias made that mistake at first, which is not surprising because Naël is a well-known given named pronounced \na.ɛl\ while Nahel is rare, but the more recent articles in serious medias have the correct spelling (many were amended after the fact). Lapin de cuisine ( talk) 18:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Put this wherever you believe it is most suited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TCGGH ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
This France 24 Article ( https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230706-policeman-denies-threatening-nahel-m-before-fatally-shooting-him-sparking-french-riots) Has part of the testimony of the detained officer.
The officer told investigators from the IGPN police investigation unit that he had worked eight consecutive days before the shooting last Tuesday.
He described making a first attempt to pull over the powerful yellow Mercedes being driven in a bus lane by Nahel, who did not have a licence.
The teenager refused to comply and accelerated to a speed of 80-100 km/h (40-60 mph), according to the second officer involved in the incident.
When they caught up with the car a second time, Florian M. said he pulled out his weapon.
He said he thought his colleague had “the top of his body inside the car, probably to try to control the driver or to try to press on the stop button”.
When the car moved off again, he said he opened fire because he thought his colleague was in danger.
Video of the incident shows both officers standing by the side window of the car.
Nahel died from a bullet wound to the chest, the police report says.
TCGGH ( talk) 16:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
But it shouldn't have been on the hood" translated correctly: "But he [policeman Florian Menesplier] shouldn't have been on the hood"... because it is an unprofessional "technical gesture". That he was never in danger, that is what Mr. Bauer, up to the President Macron, all are saying. -- 91.54.30.183 ( talk) 00:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Murder of George Floyd and Killing of Eric Garner both have only a screen shot from both of their respective videos. — FenrisAureus ▼ (she/they) ( talk) 23:44, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
no different to a print reference sitting behind a paywall— that's true, but the context (in this discussion) was replacing the legally-acceptable on-Wikipedia video with an external link, which would be contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, of template:External media#When to use, purely for the purposes of "censoring" it. Mitch Ames ( talk) 01:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
It is problematic to identify an Islamo-Arabic background with the existing "French people", being identified with the term "nation" in its respective article which itself is defined as a social organization of collective identity.
This is a matter presently up for debate, as the article suggests, thus a clearer and less leading term should be adopted. It would be more apt to say something along the lines of "Islamo-Arabic people residing in France." rather than "French people with an Islamo-Arabic background." 114.77.185.182 ( talk) 15:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
FWIW, this is an excerpt from the less partisan page on the protests: Appearing before a Senate commission on 5 July, the Interior Minister indicated that it was inaccurate to characterize the rioters as being primarily of one ethnic group, saying "there were plenty of Kevins and Mattéos" involved in the suburban violence.
[1]
--
SashiRolls
🌿 ·
🍥
23:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Would the article title of "Fatal Parisian Police Shooting of Nael M." be more accurate? Jaiquiero ( talk) 07:41, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Someone who's wrong on the internet: I admit I'm puzzled over your recent change. One can be a victim of mistaken identity, an avalanche, an administrative error, circumstances, etc... none of these things imply that a crime has been committed. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Can we come to some agreement as to what noun to use as the primary descriptor in the lead sentence? So far (mostly from memory, so I could be wrong) we've had man, boy, youth, teenager, 17-year-old, French, but it keeps changing. I propose that we should use youth. It is a common term, less misleading than boy (implies younger) or man (implies an adult), and avoids the duplication inherent in 17-year-old teenager. Mitch Ames ( talk) 01:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
These three articles all are either from or about news outlets that have a tendency to focus on "integration" as a religious issue rather than an economic one. (Atlantico, Mediapart Marianne, CNEWS)
I've removed them from the lead, along with an undue bit about French people of "Arabo-Islamic" origin. Please discuss whether references are needed in the lead, and where these articles should go in the body. (Why are there no references related to the first element (law enforcement) or the first element in relation to the second (violence) in the set of three originally listed? It's certainly not for a lack of available sources... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
References
-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Writing in Télérama, Samuel Gontier takes the peas out of CNEWS's expert musketeer's reach. [1]
References
Gontier
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).In 2017, an investigation by France's civil liberties ombudsman, the Défenseur des Droits, found that "young men perceived to be Black or Arab" were 20 times as likely to be subjected to police identity checks compared with the rest of the population.
The first article in Télérama is a satirical blog, and has no place in this entry (though it is funny). It does not use the term Arabo-Islamic, though it does mention "barbarians" in the title. The Marianne article is reporting about the party Les Republicains and their attempts to gain Le Pen / Zemmour voters. It does not use the term Arabo-Islamic either. The third article is an interview of two people giving their opinions. It is the polemicist Céline Pina's opinion which is being pushed here, though even she does not use the term Arabo-Islamic. Since all three articles fail verification for the term, I think we can safely say consensus is not likely to emerge for inclusion, no? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 01:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Incidentally, just before their fourth revert in two hours, the (Indian) person defending this anti-Muslim material added a fourth source
here (an op-ed by Ivan Rioufol in
Causeur), a very polemical magazine financed by a former member of the secretariat of the neo-fascist
Ordre Nouveau.
On the French entry for M. Rioufol, it is a fun coincidence that there's another article by the same Samuel Gontier mentioned above (this one in a reporting section, not on his blog). [1]-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 23:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
References
the (Indian) person. I see it as irrelevant and inappropriate. starship .paint ( exalt) 02:16, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
This material has been reverted 4 times since 8 July by 2 different people with policy-based reasons: WP:MOS (not in body), WP:V (term not in sources), WP:UNDUE (references are all op-eds or reporting on campaign strategy), WP:ONUS (Burden for getting consensus is on the person seeking to include): [11]: 8 July, [12]: 13 July, [13]: 14 July, [14]: 15 July
It has been restored without consensus 4 times in a shorter period by one person with no policy-based reasons offered: [15]: 9 July, [16]: 13 July, [17]: 14 July 23:46, [18]: 15 July 01:38 (also removing other modifications).
"Better source needed" tags, detailing the problem with each source, were removed by the same person on 15 July: [19].
Parenthetically, their 14 July [20] reversion of an IP who removed the story of the bar that shut down during the riots brings this person to 4RR for the period running from 23:46, 14 July to 01:38, 15 July.
It would be helpful if others could weigh in on what policy suggests concerning these op-eds and satirical blogs in the lede given that this page is linked from the mainpage. For my part, I've taken the page off my watchlist. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 02:43, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Here are all the articles in Le Monde which contain the word "arabo-islamique" in the last month. Zero articles related to the Nahel Merzouk protests. Same for Le Figaro... As I mentioned above, none of your op-eds/blogs or the story about the Republicans campaign strategy use it either... why should we?-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
There is an ongoing policy discussion at WP:BLP entitled Naming accused perpetrators of crimes debating the question of whether articles about high-profile criminal cases should name any known suspect(s) prior to conviction, especially when they are only known for their involvement with the event in question. This article is featured as one example of four fitting these criteria which either did not name the suspect(s) after being published by reliable sources, or not until after consensus to name was obtained by discussion. I will be copying this message to the other articles so that interested editors have an opportunity participate in the debate. Xan747 ( talk) 17:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
@ WikiCleanerMan: "Naël Case" was not the name of the person. "Case" is the noun meaning "affair", "scandal", "criminal event". Naël was an early spelling mistake by the media. He is now called "Nahel M." His full last name not been made public. GrandEscogriffe ( talk) 16:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Banana50iq The contributions you've made to the article consist of removing a reliable source in favor of three tweets and uncited speculation about the victim's character. They include misuse of external links and are not written in an encyclopedic tone. Please discuss any changes you want to make here, before adding reverting them back into the article. :3 F4U ( they /it) 23:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Who rented the car which Nahel was driving without a licence? Why wasn't the renter driving? Jim 2 Michael ( talk) 14:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Nahel M. rented the car through an application that did not require any documents." Nil Einne ( talk) 15:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Killing of Nael M seems to be the same article, should it be merged into this one? FatalFit | ✉ | ✓ 16:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
According to this source https://www.nicematin.com/faits-divers/emeutes-dans-les-banlieues-le-jeune-homme-blesse-durant-une-attaque-est-decede-858266, a 21-year-old man has also died due to the riots. How do I edit this in? Brocen ( talk) 15:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
people are putting porn on this page so semi protect it Sebbog13 ( talk) 10:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Killing of Nahel Merzouk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Top section: Change “The official version of events” to “Initial reporting on the incident, informed by police statements,” Trilomonk ( talk) 16:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
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In the intro, please mention that he is of Moroccan and Algerian descent. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/world/europe/nahel-france-police-shooting-nanterre.html 2600:100C:A211:73E1:78BC:D15B:EA1D:2C4 ( talk) 19:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Is there any reliable source for the subject's surname, and therefore the title of the page? My Google News only shows it on Yahoo, which isn't the best for fact checking or non-Anglosphere stories, in my personal opinion. French Wikipedia has the surname in one reference, but that's probably added by an over-eager editor, as the source itself uses just the initial in the title. [2] This is very basic WP:V stuff, how can an article be titled after an assumption? Unknown Temptation ( talk) 19:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
The current content of Background section is quite woke - along the lines of "police is evil, arabs are discriminated". No mentions of real context - recurrent terrorist attacks by islamists in France, no-go zones, arab ghettos, elevated terror threat levels for years, with military patrols in cities - the context explaining why French police gets nervous in the situation this killing took place. Birdofpreyru ( talk) 10:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
islamistsand the idea that France having a high incidence of terrorism is necessary context suggests to me that the concern here is not in good faith. Kingsif ( talk) 03:42, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The current subsection on the background of Merzouk is very confusing. It says that he did not have a criminal record, and then immediately after says: “But he was "known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest," and in fact had been charged with resisting the previous weekendand five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of narcotics.”
The information in this paragraph seems to contradict the opening sentence. It says he did not have a criminal record, and then elaborates the details of a lengthy criminal record. Is there a technical definition of “criminal record” being used here? If so, I think that definition should be elaborated, so that the paragraph makes sense. Is it that he was never convicted in these 15 incidents? Or that he was not charged?
In either of these cases, I would think it would be more accurate to say something like “Merzouk has not been charged or convicted in any criminal case, however he does have an extensive record of contact with law enforcement.” The rest of the paragraph would make more sense in that case. Currently it is a non-sequitur. EthanZappa ( talk) 03:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Is there a technical definition of “criminal record” being used here?- a "criminal record" has always referred to convictions. This does not need to be spelled out. Kingsif ( talk) 03:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I have a proposal. Should the 2023 French Race Riots be split into its own article named 2023 French Race Riots? The template in the Nationwide unrest section has it named as that. Cwater1 ( talk) 15:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Merzouk rented the car through an application that did not require any documents. [1]
References
I'm gonna boldly remove this bit for now, because it seems like a Frenchism that doesn't really make sense without more context in English. An application is a document. Are we talking about an "app" like on your phone? The source doesn't offer any clarity. GMG talk 12:10, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
The article cited to corroborate the fact that the video challenged the version of event provided by cops(1) is itself citing an article(2) from 2022 to corroborate its statement, I hope you see the problem here. I tried and I cannot find the original police statement to verify that claim. All other news site points towards Le Parisien to report the fact that the police allegedly lied. This is really weird. Can we find that original statement? If not it seems like this whole section should be rewritten to account for this incongruency.
2. https://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/refus-dobtemperer-ces-versions-qui-saffrontent-apres-les-tirs-mortels-de-policiers-a-paris-07-06-2022-B5LPKFQF2BAXVINWAI3ILAMBQQ.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by Some1 looking ( talk • contribs) 23:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
I'm new here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the rule of thumb is that each sentence in the introduction should be elaborated upon in the body section, and the statistics in the introduction about cars being destroyed and protesters being arrested in the subsequent protests already exists down in the 'Nationwide Unrest' section. Should the introduction sentence be cut? Trilomonk ( talk) 18:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
I was struck by the initial reactions section, insofar as, in contrast to what the article reports, both Kylian Mbappé ( speaking for the French football team) and Nahel's grandmother have called for an end to the riots. Perhaps these elements have not been added because of the name of the section?
I also just finished reading an article in Le Monde ( §) about the €1 million raised in 4 days on gofundme for the family of the police officer... not sure what to make of that, but it's rather a lot of money. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 16:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
As someone who speaks French, this is not what can be heard on the video found in this very article. What is heard is Nahel's voice, less loud because inside the vehicle, saying to the officer "Pas dans la tête!" ("Not in the head!") as he is getting punched in the face. The officer only says "Coupe!" ("cut", aka "turn off the engine") repeatedly and "Depêche toi!" ("quickly"). Nahel then says "Tu m’as foutu un coup dans la tête!" ("You hit me in the head!") to which the policeman answers "Coupe!" and then the conversation ends. 90.119.26.215 ( talk) 18:27, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research.So it seems that it is fine to attempt to translate what is said in the video. -- Super Goku V ( talk) 23:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The current version of the "Shooting" section states as course of events that led to the shooting: "Nahel, who had Algerian heritage, was stopped by two police officers at approximately 8:30 am (CEST) near the François Arago crossing, close to the Nelson Mandela Square, due to traffic violations." This gives the impression that the police officers overreacted with drawn guns to a harmless "traffic violation" like switching lanes without signaling. According to an article of Reuters however, the police officers had tried to perform a first (routine) traffic stop of Nahel Merzouk for the illegal use of a bus lane before the shooting. Instead of complying, Nahel Merzouk sped off and committed not only several additional traffic offences, but also endangered the life of a pedestrian and a cyclist due to his reckless driving. When the police officers were finally able to approach his car - which had stopped because of a traffic jam - they were thus not just approaching someone "due to traffic violations" but someone who had just committed several felonies, had fled from a traffic stop and was still in control of a deadly weapon (his car). The current version of the "Shooting" section ommits all these facts and should be rewritten in a way that mention these facts and thus gives a more balanced description that explains the "guns drawn"-approach of the police officers. MiBerG ( talk) 00:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I think 'Killing of Nahel Merzouk' and 'Nahel Merzouk Protests' should be merged into a single article as they presently overlap so heavily. All of the information on the former could and should be placed on the latter. CoyotesKenning ( talk) 08:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
What the heck does this mean? Resisting arrest, driving without insurance, and drug dealing are all crimes where I live. Also according to the family lawyers, so not sure this is reliable enough to just go in the body without attribution. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 01:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
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Killing of Nahel Merzouk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Posted without reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk&diff=1164076667&oldid=1164018423
Please, in the sentence: "On 19 July 2016, Adama Traoré, a 24-year-old black man in France, with a heavy criminal record, died while in custody after being restrained and apprehended by the police." delete ", with a heavy criminal record,".
This is character assassination of Nahel. From the the « fachosphère ». Source: [5] Libération "Sur France Info, ce mercredi 28 juin, l’avocate Me Jennifer Campla a répété que l’adolescent «n’a jamais été condamné, il a un casier judiciaire vierge»" → *translation service* → "he had a virgin criminal record" 91.54.30.183 ( talk) 00:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
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Paper9oll (
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10:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Nahel's name is not "also spelled Naël", and the source that is cited contains nothing of the sort. Some medias made that mistake at first, which is not surprising because Naël is a well-known given named pronounced \na.ɛl\ while Nahel is rare, but the more recent articles in serious medias have the correct spelling (many were amended after the fact). Lapin de cuisine ( talk) 18:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Put this wherever you believe it is most suited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TCGGH ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
This France 24 Article ( https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230706-policeman-denies-threatening-nahel-m-before-fatally-shooting-him-sparking-french-riots) Has part of the testimony of the detained officer.
The officer told investigators from the IGPN police investigation unit that he had worked eight consecutive days before the shooting last Tuesday.
He described making a first attempt to pull over the powerful yellow Mercedes being driven in a bus lane by Nahel, who did not have a licence.
The teenager refused to comply and accelerated to a speed of 80-100 km/h (40-60 mph), according to the second officer involved in the incident.
When they caught up with the car a second time, Florian M. said he pulled out his weapon.
He said he thought his colleague had “the top of his body inside the car, probably to try to control the driver or to try to press on the stop button”.
When the car moved off again, he said he opened fire because he thought his colleague was in danger.
Video of the incident shows both officers standing by the side window of the car.
Nahel died from a bullet wound to the chest, the police report says.
TCGGH ( talk) 16:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
But it shouldn't have been on the hood" translated correctly: "But he [policeman Florian Menesplier] shouldn't have been on the hood"... because it is an unprofessional "technical gesture". That he was never in danger, that is what Mr. Bauer, up to the President Macron, all are saying. -- 91.54.30.183 ( talk) 00:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Murder of George Floyd and Killing of Eric Garner both have only a screen shot from both of their respective videos. — FenrisAureus ▼ (she/they) ( talk) 23:44, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
no different to a print reference sitting behind a paywall— that's true, but the context (in this discussion) was replacing the legally-acceptable on-Wikipedia video with an external link, which would be contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, of template:External media#When to use, purely for the purposes of "censoring" it. Mitch Ames ( talk) 01:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
It is problematic to identify an Islamo-Arabic background with the existing "French people", being identified with the term "nation" in its respective article which itself is defined as a social organization of collective identity.
This is a matter presently up for debate, as the article suggests, thus a clearer and less leading term should be adopted. It would be more apt to say something along the lines of "Islamo-Arabic people residing in France." rather than "French people with an Islamo-Arabic background." 114.77.185.182 ( talk) 15:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
FWIW, this is an excerpt from the less partisan page on the protests: Appearing before a Senate commission on 5 July, the Interior Minister indicated that it was inaccurate to characterize the rioters as being primarily of one ethnic group, saying "there were plenty of Kevins and Mattéos" involved in the suburban violence.
[1]
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SashiRolls
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23:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Would the article title of "Fatal Parisian Police Shooting of Nael M." be more accurate? Jaiquiero ( talk) 07:41, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Someone who's wrong on the internet: I admit I'm puzzled over your recent change. One can be a victim of mistaken identity, an avalanche, an administrative error, circumstances, etc... none of these things imply that a crime has been committed. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Can we come to some agreement as to what noun to use as the primary descriptor in the lead sentence? So far (mostly from memory, so I could be wrong) we've had man, boy, youth, teenager, 17-year-old, French, but it keeps changing. I propose that we should use youth. It is a common term, less misleading than boy (implies younger) or man (implies an adult), and avoids the duplication inherent in 17-year-old teenager. Mitch Ames ( talk) 01:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
These three articles all are either from or about news outlets that have a tendency to focus on "integration" as a religious issue rather than an economic one. (Atlantico, Mediapart Marianne, CNEWS)
I've removed them from the lead, along with an undue bit about French people of "Arabo-Islamic" origin. Please discuss whether references are needed in the lead, and where these articles should go in the body. (Why are there no references related to the first element (law enforcement) or the first element in relation to the second (violence) in the set of three originally listed? It's certainly not for a lack of available sources... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
References
-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 00:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Writing in Télérama, Samuel Gontier takes the peas out of CNEWS's expert musketeer's reach. [1]
References
Gontier
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).In 2017, an investigation by France's civil liberties ombudsman, the Défenseur des Droits, found that "young men perceived to be Black or Arab" were 20 times as likely to be subjected to police identity checks compared with the rest of the population.
The first article in Télérama is a satirical blog, and has no place in this entry (though it is funny). It does not use the term Arabo-Islamic, though it does mention "barbarians" in the title. The Marianne article is reporting about the party Les Republicains and their attempts to gain Le Pen / Zemmour voters. It does not use the term Arabo-Islamic either. The third article is an interview of two people giving their opinions. It is the polemicist Céline Pina's opinion which is being pushed here, though even she does not use the term Arabo-Islamic. Since all three articles fail verification for the term, I think we can safely say consensus is not likely to emerge for inclusion, no? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 01:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Incidentally, just before their fourth revert in two hours, the (Indian) person defending this anti-Muslim material added a fourth source
here (an op-ed by Ivan Rioufol in
Causeur), a very polemical magazine financed by a former member of the secretariat of the neo-fascist
Ordre Nouveau.
On the French entry for M. Rioufol, it is a fun coincidence that there's another article by the same Samuel Gontier mentioned above (this one in a reporting section, not on his blog). [1]-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 23:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
References
the (Indian) person. I see it as irrelevant and inappropriate. starship .paint ( exalt) 02:16, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
This material has been reverted 4 times since 8 July by 2 different people with policy-based reasons: WP:MOS (not in body), WP:V (term not in sources), WP:UNDUE (references are all op-eds or reporting on campaign strategy), WP:ONUS (Burden for getting consensus is on the person seeking to include): [11]: 8 July, [12]: 13 July, [13]: 14 July, [14]: 15 July
It has been restored without consensus 4 times in a shorter period by one person with no policy-based reasons offered: [15]: 9 July, [16]: 13 July, [17]: 14 July 23:46, [18]: 15 July 01:38 (also removing other modifications).
"Better source needed" tags, detailing the problem with each source, were removed by the same person on 15 July: [19].
Parenthetically, their 14 July [20] reversion of an IP who removed the story of the bar that shut down during the riots brings this person to 4RR for the period running from 23:46, 14 July to 01:38, 15 July.
It would be helpful if others could weigh in on what policy suggests concerning these op-eds and satirical blogs in the lede given that this page is linked from the mainpage. For my part, I've taken the page off my watchlist. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 02:43, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Here are all the articles in Le Monde which contain the word "arabo-islamique" in the last month. Zero articles related to the Nahel Merzouk protests. Same for Le Figaro... As I mentioned above, none of your op-eds/blogs or the story about the Republicans campaign strategy use it either... why should we?-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
There is an ongoing policy discussion at WP:BLP entitled Naming accused perpetrators of crimes debating the question of whether articles about high-profile criminal cases should name any known suspect(s) prior to conviction, especially when they are only known for their involvement with the event in question. This article is featured as one example of four fitting these criteria which either did not name the suspect(s) after being published by reliable sources, or not until after consensus to name was obtained by discussion. I will be copying this message to the other articles so that interested editors have an opportunity participate in the debate. Xan747 ( talk) 17:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)