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![]() | This article contains a translation of Affaire Naël from fr.wikipedia. |
One user has chosen to replace every usage of the word teenager in the entry with Nahel M.'s last name, despite the numerous articles that do not mention the minor's last name and refer to him prominently as a teenager. NB: there are sixteen occurrences of "teenager" on the page, all in the references (so, in article titles). Is there any justifiable reason for this change from the sources? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 06:20, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
On Friday, just a few days after a French police officer shot dead a teenager during a traffic stop in a Paris suburb, the UN Human Rights Office urged France to tackle racial discrimination.-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 06:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
biographical information in other articles. One could argue that it would be contrary to the guideline to write "The teenager dropped out of school." However, what happened after his death cannot be called biographical information. Once again, I'd say "follow the sources". The fact that our entry included zero occurrences of the word "teenager" after your changes strikes me as a problem for NPOV given the preponderance of sources. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 07:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
where applicableas saying when it pertains to
biographical informationas stated in the very first line of the guideline and not to when it is sourced to articles that do not give the name or focus on his biography (e.g. this NYT article: §). Otherwise, why would it say "where applicable"? The choice made by reliable sources not to mention his last name suggests that the reaction to the video circulating of a teenager being shot point blank would have likely been the same regardless of whether his last name was Traoré, Benna, Camara, Djaidja, Oussekine or Merzouk. Cf. §. NB: it's true lthat in many articles you see signs saying "Justice for Nahel", which does personalize the matter (but his last name, again, is not mentioned). -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
What policy or guideline says we must use the terminology of the source?WP:V only requires that we can "check that the information comes from a reliable source", which it does. WWGB ( talk) 07:57, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
fails WP:Vto suggest in wiki-voice that President Macron said Merzouk's name. He did not. As you can read below, he said "We have a teenager who was killed. It's inexplicable, inexcusable." The only reason to avoid a direct quote is that it is not very economical in terms of prose (though if you insist, we'll have to use a direct quote I guess). And now it's your turn to answer a very closely related question:
What policy or guideline says we must not ever use the terminology of the (multiple) source(s)?-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 08:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Why should this consensual term (for RS and not-so RS) be entirely absent from this entry?Because we have MOS:SURNAME that says to refer to people by their surname, not their age-bracket. Mitch Ames ( talk) 23:45, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Traitement d'antécedents judiciairesas it did for the past few days when you clicked on "French" in the interlanguage links), the very first words of the entry after the title over there were "un adolescent". It's also worth noting that the lede section of the French version does not end with unsourced Rassemblement national talking points in the same way as the en.wp version does... the newest of the unsourced elements being that the moment of silence in the lower house of Parliament was "controversial". No source in our entry says that. But that's OK... WP:V is dead (too much work to verify). Long live MOS:SURNAME! It seems Le Pen is mightier than this "board". -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 01:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
In fact perhaps it would be best to look at the occurrences individually. The only use of "teenager" I restored was immediately before the citations from President Macron who said, "Nous avons un adolescent qui a été tué, c'est inexplicable, inexcusable..." If nobody objects to this case (where it seems to me abundantly obvious we should be respecting the language used by both the journalists and the head of state), there's no point going round and round about it. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 15:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
I reinstated the use of the word teenager to describe what was said by President Macron, because Macron never broke with protocol and used Merzouk's name. I do not know why his name is (as you say) being kept "secret", most likely because he is a minor and is therefore being protected.I became curious, because I can't do it either. I can't. If all the people in the government, not only President Macron and Prime Minister Elisabeth Borne, but all of them, all the people in Senate, all the people in the National Assembly, almost all of the media (not alone in French, but also in Spanish, German, Portuguese, English) all most all the time do not mention the surname of the victim, there is probably a good reason. Something more than "protocol". Ethics for a supreme good? Law? I am anything but a specialist in French law but it is quite possible that this is linked to article 39 bis of the law of July 29, 1881:
I'm not sure what edits you are suggesting making to this entry. I added the story about Hedi Rouabah to the protests page a week ago ( §), though I didn't mention his name. If you think it needs further expansion there don't hesitate... the police strikes and sick-outs have since spread to other cities (Paris, Nice, ...) but no hard data is being communicated. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 06:41, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Folks here are fickle: less than a week ago, the lede of this entry didn't mention the police officer by any name at all, and now it goes farther than the fr.wp entry, where administrators upheld the decision to hide the name as potentially "illegal content" ( §). Based on WP:SURNAME, it looks like all the occurrences of "police officer" may soon be replaced? Alternately, we may learn that that guideline about biographies wasn't really the issue concerning the word "teenager" after all... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 20:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
As I mentioned in my edit summary, the TAJ is not public information and the press does not have access to it ( source). Louis de Raguenel has published information allegedly from that file, which has been reproduced here. If you read this month's Signpost, you can learn more about one of his alleged employers, Alp Services, which appears to have been a misinformation outlet. Here is the article in Mediapart [1] for those who read French. Otherwise, his name is also mentioned in a l-o-n-g New Yorker article. [2] Not sure we should be publishing privacy-violating information from such a compromised source? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 10:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
References
À Europe 1, c'est lui qui a révélé le 28 juin dernier, « de sources policières », les antécédents mentionnés dans le fichier de la police au sujet de Nahel, l'adolescent tué par un policier à Nanterre – un classique visant à tenter de criminaliser la victime.
-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 10:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
In 2022 ′Europe 1′ was bought by Vincent Bolloré (military and mass media industry). "Bolloré and the mass media" is a big topic in France at the moment because he buys up well-known media and then changes their "editorial track record". From popular, conservative to right-wing and today to the far right! Boiling frog syndrom. Bolloré is big time corruption in Togo and other West-African countries, with child exploitation and billions in looting. Bolloré "made" proto-fascist Éric Zemmour presidential candidate by giving him an hour and a half of airtime daily in his television news channel.
Louis de Raguenel, was a controversial journalist ( controversé), but since he worked for United Arab Emirates in that "Smear Campaign" we can't just treat him as a normal journalist any more. I'm not saying we should simply delete it, but it would be better if we described the smear campaign against Nahel in the ultra right-wing media CNews and Europe 1. Some media comments were insulting, defamatory and odious. The fact that Nahel is dead was not enough, his memory too must be tainted. Nahel's family had to take legal action against some of it. Thank you @ SashiRolls: for the Signpost link and for taking care of this matter.
The reputable source Liberation CheckNews: Mort de Nahel à Nanterre : polémique autour du casier judiciaire de l’adolescent tué par la police → These leaks were used by the right or extreme right to soften the impact of the tragedy, if not to justify it. Beyond the process of denying the young deceased the status of victim, it is also the accuracy of the information that has been the subject of controversy in Nahel's case. On CNews, far-right journalist Charlotte d'Ornellas asserted that the victim had "a record as long as your arm" and that he was "very well known to the police". On social networking sites, several accounts also referred to a "lengthy record", citing the following: "Refusal to obey orders, multiple repeat offender well known to the police, driving without a license at 17, drug dealer, possession of several firearms, hold-ups". In the evening, the victim's lawyers reacted strongly, publishing a press release in which they warned: "The family reserves the right to take legal action against anyone who invents, as has already been done today, non-existent entries in the young man's criminal record". The statement added that the victim "has never been convicted by the courts". ... Speaking on France Info on Wednesday June 28, lawyer Jennifer Campla reiterated that the teenager "has never been convicted, he has a clean ″casier judiciaire″", while adding that he is "known to the police, which is not the same thing, since in the ″traitement d’antécédent judiciaire″, he has not been tried for anything. I think that in this type of neighborhood, it's quite rare for a young person never to have been checked or never to have been placed in police custody." — "... on France Inter, the spokesperson for the Ministry of the Interior Camille Chaize reacted to a question from Léa Salamé who asked her for details on the young man's criminal record, replying that "it has no sense to think like this. It doesn't matter if he was known to the police or not. This drama is not acceptable. It's true that sometimes we have police sources, or we have certain leaks that highlight a criminal record, or sometimes entries in the daybook (inscriptions dans la main courante!!!), which is infrajudicial, which is not of the criminal record."
We know in France: Les fichiers de police toujours truffés d'erreurs ≈ The Police files are always riddled with errors. -- 91.54.14.119 ( talk) 15:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
proper English. Please note that divulging information from the TAJ to the press is correctly described as "leaking", not "reporting" (a civil servant caught doing it would be subject to administrative sanctions). The Libération article cited above uses the verb "leaked" (fuiter) twice, once in the author's voice, and once when citing the Interior Ministry spokeswoman describing how the press got the information (she is, of course, a "gold standard" source concerning police matters). I will restore "leaked" for the sake of
proper balance. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 09:18, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
The introduction does not mention in any way what potential actions by Nahel Merzouk that led to the reaction -- the shooting -- by the police officer. But judging from the actual events described further down in the article, there cannot be any doubt whatsoever that the police not only had the right to but actually should have tried to stop the car Nahel was breaking the traffic rules with, was driving without a driver's license looking very young, and later also dangerously tried to drive off with a police officer hanging in the window of the car. Not having any form of indication of this in the introduction is very flawed, because these are important elements building up to the police's reaction, and they would tell the reader that there are subtle nuances in this case. I frankly do not understand why these elements are not mentioned, because they clearly are both true and important. You're destroying the reputation of Wikipedia through coloring the articles according to your bias rather than aiming for objectivity. 193.69.194.28 ( talk) 17:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Killing of Nahel Merzouk article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 7 days
![]() |
![]() | The contents of the Nahel Merzouk riots page were merged into Killing of Nahel Merzouk on 30 June 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | A news item involving Killing of Nahel Merzouk was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 1 July 2023. | ![]() |
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article contains a translation of Affaire Naël from fr.wikipedia. |
One user has chosen to replace every usage of the word teenager in the entry with Nahel M.'s last name, despite the numerous articles that do not mention the minor's last name and refer to him prominently as a teenager. NB: there are sixteen occurrences of "teenager" on the page, all in the references (so, in article titles). Is there any justifiable reason for this change from the sources? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 06:20, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
On Friday, just a few days after a French police officer shot dead a teenager during a traffic stop in a Paris suburb, the UN Human Rights Office urged France to tackle racial discrimination.-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 06:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
biographical information in other articles. One could argue that it would be contrary to the guideline to write "The teenager dropped out of school." However, what happened after his death cannot be called biographical information. Once again, I'd say "follow the sources". The fact that our entry included zero occurrences of the word "teenager" after your changes strikes me as a problem for NPOV given the preponderance of sources. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 07:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
where applicableas saying when it pertains to
biographical informationas stated in the very first line of the guideline and not to when it is sourced to articles that do not give the name or focus on his biography (e.g. this NYT article: §). Otherwise, why would it say "where applicable"? The choice made by reliable sources not to mention his last name suggests that the reaction to the video circulating of a teenager being shot point blank would have likely been the same regardless of whether his last name was Traoré, Benna, Camara, Djaidja, Oussekine or Merzouk. Cf. §. NB: it's true lthat in many articles you see signs saying "Justice for Nahel", which does personalize the matter (but his last name, again, is not mentioned). -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
What policy or guideline says we must use the terminology of the source?WP:V only requires that we can "check that the information comes from a reliable source", which it does. WWGB ( talk) 07:57, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
fails WP:Vto suggest in wiki-voice that President Macron said Merzouk's name. He did not. As you can read below, he said "We have a teenager who was killed. It's inexplicable, inexcusable." The only reason to avoid a direct quote is that it is not very economical in terms of prose (though if you insist, we'll have to use a direct quote I guess). And now it's your turn to answer a very closely related question:
What policy or guideline says we must not ever use the terminology of the (multiple) source(s)?-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 08:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Why should this consensual term (for RS and not-so RS) be entirely absent from this entry?Because we have MOS:SURNAME that says to refer to people by their surname, not their age-bracket. Mitch Ames ( talk) 23:45, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Traitement d'antécedents judiciairesas it did for the past few days when you clicked on "French" in the interlanguage links), the very first words of the entry after the title over there were "un adolescent". It's also worth noting that the lede section of the French version does not end with unsourced Rassemblement national talking points in the same way as the en.wp version does... the newest of the unsourced elements being that the moment of silence in the lower house of Parliament was "controversial". No source in our entry says that. But that's OK... WP:V is dead (too much work to verify). Long live MOS:SURNAME! It seems Le Pen is mightier than this "board". -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 01:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
In fact perhaps it would be best to look at the occurrences individually. The only use of "teenager" I restored was immediately before the citations from President Macron who said, "Nous avons un adolescent qui a été tué, c'est inexplicable, inexcusable..." If nobody objects to this case (where it seems to me abundantly obvious we should be respecting the language used by both the journalists and the head of state), there's no point going round and round about it. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 15:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
I reinstated the use of the word teenager to describe what was said by President Macron, because Macron never broke with protocol and used Merzouk's name. I do not know why his name is (as you say) being kept "secret", most likely because he is a minor and is therefore being protected.I became curious, because I can't do it either. I can't. If all the people in the government, not only President Macron and Prime Minister Elisabeth Borne, but all of them, all the people in Senate, all the people in the National Assembly, almost all of the media (not alone in French, but also in Spanish, German, Portuguese, English) all most all the time do not mention the surname of the victim, there is probably a good reason. Something more than "protocol". Ethics for a supreme good? Law? I am anything but a specialist in French law but it is quite possible that this is linked to article 39 bis of the law of July 29, 1881:
I'm not sure what edits you are suggesting making to this entry. I added the story about Hedi Rouabah to the protests page a week ago ( §), though I didn't mention his name. If you think it needs further expansion there don't hesitate... the police strikes and sick-outs have since spread to other cities (Paris, Nice, ...) but no hard data is being communicated. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 06:41, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Folks here are fickle: less than a week ago, the lede of this entry didn't mention the police officer by any name at all, and now it goes farther than the fr.wp entry, where administrators upheld the decision to hide the name as potentially "illegal content" ( §). Based on WP:SURNAME, it looks like all the occurrences of "police officer" may soon be replaced? Alternately, we may learn that that guideline about biographies wasn't really the issue concerning the word "teenager" after all... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 20:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
As I mentioned in my edit summary, the TAJ is not public information and the press does not have access to it ( source). Louis de Raguenel has published information allegedly from that file, which has been reproduced here. If you read this month's Signpost, you can learn more about one of his alleged employers, Alp Services, which appears to have been a misinformation outlet. Here is the article in Mediapart [1] for those who read French. Otherwise, his name is also mentioned in a l-o-n-g New Yorker article. [2] Not sure we should be publishing privacy-violating information from such a compromised source? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 10:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
References
À Europe 1, c'est lui qui a révélé le 28 juin dernier, « de sources policières », les antécédents mentionnés dans le fichier de la police au sujet de Nahel, l'adolescent tué par un policier à Nanterre – un classique visant à tenter de criminaliser la victime.
-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 10:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
In 2022 ′Europe 1′ was bought by Vincent Bolloré (military and mass media industry). "Bolloré and the mass media" is a big topic in France at the moment because he buys up well-known media and then changes their "editorial track record". From popular, conservative to right-wing and today to the far right! Boiling frog syndrom. Bolloré is big time corruption in Togo and other West-African countries, with child exploitation and billions in looting. Bolloré "made" proto-fascist Éric Zemmour presidential candidate by giving him an hour and a half of airtime daily in his television news channel.
Louis de Raguenel, was a controversial journalist ( controversé), but since he worked for United Arab Emirates in that "Smear Campaign" we can't just treat him as a normal journalist any more. I'm not saying we should simply delete it, but it would be better if we described the smear campaign against Nahel in the ultra right-wing media CNews and Europe 1. Some media comments were insulting, defamatory and odious. The fact that Nahel is dead was not enough, his memory too must be tainted. Nahel's family had to take legal action against some of it. Thank you @ SashiRolls: for the Signpost link and for taking care of this matter.
The reputable source Liberation CheckNews: Mort de Nahel à Nanterre : polémique autour du casier judiciaire de l’adolescent tué par la police → These leaks were used by the right or extreme right to soften the impact of the tragedy, if not to justify it. Beyond the process of denying the young deceased the status of victim, it is also the accuracy of the information that has been the subject of controversy in Nahel's case. On CNews, far-right journalist Charlotte d'Ornellas asserted that the victim had "a record as long as your arm" and that he was "very well known to the police". On social networking sites, several accounts also referred to a "lengthy record", citing the following: "Refusal to obey orders, multiple repeat offender well known to the police, driving without a license at 17, drug dealer, possession of several firearms, hold-ups". In the evening, the victim's lawyers reacted strongly, publishing a press release in which they warned: "The family reserves the right to take legal action against anyone who invents, as has already been done today, non-existent entries in the young man's criminal record". The statement added that the victim "has never been convicted by the courts". ... Speaking on France Info on Wednesday June 28, lawyer Jennifer Campla reiterated that the teenager "has never been convicted, he has a clean ″casier judiciaire″", while adding that he is "known to the police, which is not the same thing, since in the ″traitement d’antécédent judiciaire″, he has not been tried for anything. I think that in this type of neighborhood, it's quite rare for a young person never to have been checked or never to have been placed in police custody." — "... on France Inter, the spokesperson for the Ministry of the Interior Camille Chaize reacted to a question from Léa Salamé who asked her for details on the young man's criminal record, replying that "it has no sense to think like this. It doesn't matter if he was known to the police or not. This drama is not acceptable. It's true that sometimes we have police sources, or we have certain leaks that highlight a criminal record, or sometimes entries in the daybook (inscriptions dans la main courante!!!), which is infrajudicial, which is not of the criminal record."
We know in France: Les fichiers de police toujours truffés d'erreurs ≈ The Police files are always riddled with errors. -- 91.54.14.119 ( talk) 15:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
proper English. Please note that divulging information from the TAJ to the press is correctly described as "leaking", not "reporting" (a civil servant caught doing it would be subject to administrative sanctions). The Libération article cited above uses the verb "leaked" (fuiter) twice, once in the author's voice, and once when citing the Interior Ministry spokeswoman describing how the press got the information (she is, of course, a "gold standard" source concerning police matters). I will restore "leaked" for the sake of
proper balance. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 09:18, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
The introduction does not mention in any way what potential actions by Nahel Merzouk that led to the reaction -- the shooting -- by the police officer. But judging from the actual events described further down in the article, there cannot be any doubt whatsoever that the police not only had the right to but actually should have tried to stop the car Nahel was breaking the traffic rules with, was driving without a driver's license looking very young, and later also dangerously tried to drive off with a police officer hanging in the window of the car. Not having any form of indication of this in the introduction is very flawed, because these are important elements building up to the police's reaction, and they would tell the reader that there are subtle nuances in this case. I frankly do not understand why these elements are not mentioned, because they clearly are both true and important. You're destroying the reputation of Wikipedia through coloring the articles according to your bias rather than aiming for objectivity. 193.69.194.28 ( talk) 17:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)