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After reading Adam Rose's entire article -- not just the snippet that was quoted in the WP article -- I removed the quote because it does not actually deal with the question of who shot Mohammed al-Dura. I realize SlimVirgin raised an issue of whether Rose is a RS, and I am expressing no opinion on that, as I have not looked into it. Whether he is an RS is really a question for a different article, if anywhere. His real conclusion (which is made clear by reading that snippet in context) is that it does not matter who actually shot al-Dura, because the IDF has shot other Palestinian boys. That is what Rose refers to as the "universal Mohammed al-Dura story", in other words, if not this boy, then other boys. OK, but this article is about this particular boy, and Rose does not reach the conclusion that the IDF shot him, or that they didn't, so his quote does not belong in this article. 6SJ7 07:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
In the head of the article last paragraph, there are dates with only month and day. What year? I see this all the time and it really ruins the value of the information in those articles. I don't know the true dates, so please someone add the year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.193.151.76 ( talk) 16:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Even the Jewish World Review's Sept. 12, 2005, David Gelernter article says:
The previous paragraph troubles me:
That is not reported in the International Hearald Tribune story also cited in the lead, even though it reports that the IHT had seen the whole tape. That sort of thing is so unlikely to have escaped others viewing the unedited footage, that honestly, I don't know what to say.
But as the IHT also refers to the boy as dead, and the only doubt cast on that is someone saying the event might have been staged, there doesn't seem to be any question that the boy named in the title of this article was in fact registered as dead by the local hospital. For that reason, I'm going to remove the suggestion to the contrary from the intro. ← Ben B4 03:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
(back left) Also, why would you trust a source such as that given the description of where the photograph came from, over the sources that named the hospital? ← Ben B4 18:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
why would this information be reverted out of the article? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 08:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The article now creates the sensation that everything was staged. Honestly I do not think so. I have seen the aerial photograph of the place and the account of Fallow is completely unfair and does not fit with the photograph at all (not to say that is based in the end-of-course-work in a press intoxication training). THe first IDF explanation should have more relevance since there was no point to them self accusing themselves and it is not their way of working. Unfortunately we have no rights to publish the photo so we cannot show this key piece of conviction. I will try to found the owner and ask for ritghts. In the meanwhile is nothing to do except reflect what sources say even if are sources as these Fallow who looks to me as 100% unreliable since as I said above is basing his account in the work of the students of intoxication course.-- Igor21 19:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. I was trying to be concise. Now I separate my points.
1-This is the link for the photo [2]. It is below the vidpics in middle page. It would be very good if someone can find the owner for asking permission. It is a photo and shows how false is The Guardian diagram in the references and how false is the diagram that is now in the page supposedly done by the cameraman.
2-Regarding the "end-course project of the intoxication training", the main source for James Fallows article is a work done by some students of an IDF training of a special nature: the fall of last year Gabriel Weimann mentioned the Mohammed al-Dura case in a special course that he teaches at the Israeli Military Academy, National Security and Mass Media and then goes on explaining how the students "investigate" from scratch. I know we cannot cherrypick sources but this particular source seems to me as really biased. "National Security and Mass Media" training does not sound as a CSI training. -- Igor21 17:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Jaackobou : I will explain myself more carefully
1-I am not speaking about the vidpics but about this [3] We need to find the owner to be able of including it.
2-The part of the wikipedia article that says that everything was staged is based in an article of Fallows. This article of Fallows is based in the work that a teacher ask to do to their students. The training were the students were when doing this homework was called "Mass media and National security" and was part of a training for officers of the IDF. My point is that if some students that are doing a training in how spinning the press to become spin doctors of the IDF, do a home work about an issue and this work contradicts the official account of the IDF, it cannot be a reliable source since the aim of the training was precisely to spin and find the truth was not the goal.
This article is completely POV now and it says in big letters that everything was staged. This is because the parts stating that everything was true are being continuously eroded with "was reported" while the home work of the students of "how spin efectively" and the article of Fallows based on it are having undue weight. It is ludicrous to say that the first report of IDF charged israeli soldiers without having studied thoroughly what happened. IDF has a very long record of reporting biased in favour of their officers and soldiers. I do not see why here must be asumed that suddenly they changed their way of working and that students doing a training of how spin to the press are more accurate that the IDF officers that did the original report. -- Igor21 09:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin or Jayjg, since you're the more experienced editors, if you feel you should revert back, do you suppose you might find a way to use the added reference?
Jaakobou, I don't think the phrase "shooting from all directions" makes a lot of sense in English. Do you suppose it means "shooting in all directions?" There are some other usage problems throughout so I'm hoping you can get the assistance of a copyeditor to help.
I don't think either version is biased one way more than the other and I'm worried experienced editors might not be looking at what they are doing very closely, and reverting away a source instead of trying to incorporate it and help with prose.
The one issue I have at present is that "France 2 legal action" is a poor header when the courts have already ruled. The outcome of the libel case would normally be reported in the header, e.g., "Allegations of staging found libelous" or "France 2 and Abu Rahma cleared in court." Any objections to that? Which is better? ← Ben B4 07:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The BBC reported that doctors removed bullets from both Jamal al-Dura's arm and pelvis[18] however, according to the doctors, no bullets were found because they fragmented upon entering the body; yet no fragments were recovered either.
i've added a lot of new info to the article, and quite frankly, it's getting irritating that it's being reverted out of the article without proper reasoning.
please raise your issues to each part here before making the mass revert. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I thing the header of the sections are completely POV. "Initially reported" implies that afterwards it was proofed as false but this has not happened. The so called "initially reported" facts are still the official reported facts. Some people have arised questions but I do not see them as relevant enough to change the whole article. I spoke above about Fallows source so let us now comment about this guy who has "surprising information about Rabin assasination" and gave IDF hints about what happened with Al-Durrah. To have "surprising information about Rabin assasination" only known by him is a good credential? Has he anything "surprising" about Bermudas Triangle too? I agree with a section of "doubts" or "controversies" but not about Wikipedia backing up bizarre non-official investigations in the whole article. -- Igor21 16:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
most of what was initially reported has later been brought into contention.. so much contention (unlike the rabin case) that much of what was initially reported was later reported differently. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 18:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Jaakobou : It is the same discussion. This trick you are using is as old as wikipedia. "It was initially reported that Kennedy was killed by a single sniper placed in a nearby building" and then in "Controversies" you put "Several sources speak about one or more shooters above the grass knoll". You can do this in many articles "It was initially reported that Amstrong was the first man on the moon" "Some sources have arised questions about shadows and craters under the lunar module so some people says it was staged". And so on. I have checked in Betselem website and the kid is there as a casualty. We cannot do primary investigation not to say primary conspirationist investigation. So for wikipedia he is dead. There are doubts about who kill him but the only official report (from IDF) says that the probability is on having been killed by their soldiers as collateral damage. This what must be called "official version" as in 9/11 official version is that some islamists crash the planes. You can ask for "Other theories" section and there you can state that the kid is alive and was killed by his father.-- Igor21 17:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
i'd like to hear the reasoning for the connection of a libel lawsuit filed by "'France 2" and between claiming that France 2 was cleared in court. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 15:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Several times in the article he is mentioned as being dead, yet he is listed in the category of people being "possibly living". If we know for sure that he is dead, why is he still in that category? Nateabel 03:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Everybody know that he is dead and he is listed in many respectable lists of victims of the conflict (e.g. Peace Now website). In fact IDF accepted him being dead and having been killed by loose bullets from an israeli soldier. However this is Wikipedia and everybody with patience enough can cause a conflict big enough to make editors accept bizarre wordings that induce the reader to doubt about evidence. Anti-conspirationist manpower is limited while conspirationist energy is infinite so anti-conspirationist editors must concentrate in protecting big articles such 9/11, the Triangle of Bermudas, etc.. so here we have this poor kid being "possibly living" because nobody has the time to remove the inuendo that has been constructed so masterly and carefully to mislead the reader. For me do nothing about this is rather vomiting but I must accept that I do not have the hundreads of hours that are needed to make truth prevail in this article so I carry on with my live.-- Igor21 19:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not goint to read again the spin you have done in the article. The IDF initially admitted that it was "probably responsible" for killing Muhammad al-Durrah and expressed sorrow at his death. IDF operations chief Giora Eiland announced that a preliminary investigation revealed that "the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers from the outpost at Netzarim". An IDF inquiry released November 27, 2000, reached different conclusions. Commander Major General Yom Tov Samia stated, "A comprehensive investigation conducted in the last weeks casts serious doubt that the boy was hit by Israeli fire," he said. "It is quite plausible that the boy was hit by Palestinian bullets in the course of the exchange of fire that took place in the area.". IDF is fair enough to accept that is not sure who killed the child. You are the only one who thinks that he was killed intentionally and that is still alive. You have constructed the article as if it were a media issue. If you have blood in your veins remove him from the "possibly living" cathegory and let him rest in peace once and forever.-- Igor21 19:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
With regard to this story [5]: Obviously, Cybercast News Service, a right-wing partisan website, is not a reliable source. But even if we assume that this particular story is reliable, all it says is that Denis Jeambar and Daniel Leconte said that Abu Rahma retracted his deposition. In other words, it's hearsay, and hearsay evidence is not sufficient to support assertions like the cameraman later denied having made one of the statements or The authenticity of this affidavit is unclear. We must be particularly careful since WP:BLP applies, in this case to Talal Abu Rahma, who is being accused of giving a false deposition. Sanguinalis 02:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why you have a problem with me removing this material. You yourself say "i don't think we should discredit anyone without sourcing". These particular claims were based on one Cybercast News Service article. I examined that article and it only contains hearsay evidence on this point. If there is other evidence besides the word of two Frenchmen that Abu Rahma has retracted all or part of his affadavit, then no one has found it. Also, if you're going to participate in the English-language Wikipedia, can you please learn how to use capital letters? Sanguinalis 10:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
This article from CNS is pure spin. The filmmaker Laconte wrote shortly after an article in Le Figaro denying what it is said in the CNS post and explaining that he abandoned the investigation because he felt instrumentalized by Mena. He said that his only remark in this affaire is that it is imposible to proof that the kid was killed by israelian bullets and that Enderlin should not have said so THE SAME AFTERNOON but he should have waited for the conclusions of the Tsahal (that were published some time after and said as it is known that "the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers from the outpost at Netzarim"). Laconte says in the article that in his opinion the incident was not staged and that Mohamed Al-Durrah is the kid who died in front of the camera. You can read this in here [7]. So this article from CNS is as valuable as Von Daniken remarks about the Mayas. -- Igor21 14:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this must be in the article . "The authenticity of this affidavit is unclear. It was apparently given to the Palestine Centre for Human Rights in Gaza on October 3 2000, and signed by the cameraman in front of a lawyer, Raji Sourani. France 2's communications director, Christine Delavennat, later said that Abu Rahma "denied making a statement — falsely attributed to him by a human rights group [the Palestine Centre for Human Rights] — to the effect that the Israeli army fired at the boy in cold blood." [1] since is evident that the IDF does not shot in cold blod to the kid and nobody present there can say so.-- Igor21 09:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not know how this can be worded but my point is that we must distinguish from what the cameraman said and what the Palestinian association said that he said. The cameraman and everybody involved except the Palestinian associacion, denied that he said that the kid was killed in cold blood. So even if the affidavit was signed, he retreated from it afterwards and thus eliminates any relevance from it (except as a litmus of the will to spin of this Palestinian association). So more than discuss the authenticity of the afidavit, the emphasis must be in the fact that when everybody (the cameraman + the french journalists) was able to speak without pressure, they went for and accidental death as collateral damage, ruling out both a deliberate murder by IDF and a staged incident.-- Igor21 08:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
No. In general I hate spining and propaganda (from both sides). I prefer accounts from witnesses and in this case the winesses -including IDF- are clear. -- Igor21 15:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Igor21: I'm still very confused by your sequence of posts, and I hope you can clarify. You seem to be taking it as known fact that Abu Rahma has etracted his affidavit, yet the only evidence that has been presented to support this are statements from two French journalists and one France 2 employee on the Cybercast News Service website. You seem to agree with me that this webite is not a reliable source - you compared it to von Däniken's theories. So what is your basis for believing that "the cameraman...denied that he said that the kid was killed in cold blood" and that he "retreated" from his affidavit? Sanguinalis 02:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not like articles being written as an ongoing investigation when all the data is on the table. What the group formed by the Frenchs+the cameraman says is explained with the nuances of each one in the link in french I provided. There is the article of Laconte in Le Figaro were he said that Enderlin should have not said that the bullets were coming from IDF and two comments of Enderlin were he says that everybody on site agree on this and that IDF confirmed the likeliness some days after. So from this link emerges a solid position with two clear things 1)Enderlin was imprudent in the first moment and 2)his guess (in fact the guess of Talal Rahma was confirmed by IDF that justified the incident in the violence of the palestinians and the presence of childs in a war place. Apart from this, the french say that Mena was manipulating (Laconte says and Enderlin agrees and explains the Mena campaign for bluring the facts). This is what must be stated in the article as the position of these Frenchs+Rahma. The story of the afidavit and the Palestinian Association is another story with no relevance once the French and Rahma have a clear position clearly written. I do not know if he retracted, if he do not signed it or what, but it is clear that neither him nor the French are backing up in any way what is said in the afidavit. And yes, that website is devoted to misinformation and spining and should not be used as source in Wikipedia, not to say for explaining what said the French when we have a link written from the hand of both parts of French (Laconte and Enderlin) where they declare everything they want to say about the facts. Perhaps we should ask for a formal translation of the french text. -- Igor21 18:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I also can read french and when Enderlin says : "Mais revenons à l’article de Denis Jeambar et Daniel Leconte. Ils posent la question suivante : pourquoi Enderlin a-t-il dit dans son reportage que les balles venaient de la position israélienne ? Voici les réponses : D’abord, parce que, au moment de la diffusion, le correspondant de France 2 à Gaza, Talal, qui a filmé la scène, indiquait que tel était le cas." So he does not say that Talal said that "the kid was killed in cold blood. Secondly Enderlin says "Denis Jeambar et Daniel Leconte évoquent l’utilisation qui a été faite de l’image de la mort de l’enfant et posent ainsi un problème fondamental : lors de la réalisation de son reportage, un journaliste doit-il tenir compte de l’usage malhonnête qui pourrait en être fait ultérieurement par des groupes extrémistes ? Une telle exigence signifierait une inacceptable censure à la source". For me he is saying that say that was killed in cold blood is "usage malhonéte". But all this is speculative. I have no formal statement about why or if he signed that affidavit and if he retracted of just choose to stop speaking about it. -- Igor21 18:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
What you say is very wikipedian but is totally absurd in real world. If Enderlin knows that a presential witness thinks that the kid was killed in cold blood by IDf he would say all the time.-- Igor21 08:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Have editors seen this post: IDF demands uncut al-Dura tape? I have glanced over it and the Wikipedia article. I quickly decided that I didn't know enough to add anything to the article so I thought I would just pass it along. Sbowers3 21:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
A French appeals court has ordered the full unedited tape to be released. [8] Sbowers3 05:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
< http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/908848.html> Government Press Office Director Daniel Seaman said Monday that the September 2000 death of Palestinian child Mohammed Al-Dura in the Gaza Strip was staged. Seaman made the comments in a letter he sent responding to a demand that he strip France 2 journalists of their GPO credentials. France 2 broadcast the footage of Al-Dura's death in September 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cremona ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
A recently released document, for the first time, Israel officially responded to this incident, denying that the boy was killed by israeli fire, and claiming some of the footage was staged. The statement was released by Government Press Office director Daniel Seaman. As part of the letter, they inform of their intention to sue to revoke journalist documents from France 2 unless they appologize. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3455496,00.html (The hebrew version of the article links to the original letter (in Hebrew): http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/1_10_07/index1.htm Yonyb 21:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
OK then. Can you please tell us what is this document, who is signing it and what new research is based on?-- Igor21 16:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
hebrew linkage: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-1769288,00.html http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/1_10_07/index1.htm http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-294448,00.html http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3455459,00.html http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3455479,00.html -- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
So all in all, the document was just a written statement from the Governement Press Office to silence the fanatics that in Israel were asking for IDF denying even the posibility of the bullets coming out from one of their weapons. Since spin is normally conducted by Press Offices the selection of the signer was very adecuate. The importance of the document is clearly shown by the fact that was not released in English and nobody in the world has cared a fig about what says.-- Igor21 17:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
It is becoming clear that, no matter your POV, there is a strong possibility that the al-Dura footage was staged, or otherwise faked in some way. At what point does the word "allegedly" need to start appearing throughout this article? And at what point could we conclude that this entire episode was a hoax? I'm not suggesting we're there yet, but it does seem highly possible that the tapes will expose this entire episode as a fraud. Schrodingers Mongoose 01:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
About content and not about contributors : The idea that the kid is alive and another one was buried in his grave is not accepted by nobody in the mainstream media. When someone spokes about the "investigative team" should explain if he is speaking about the original IDF investigation -that established that there was a probability of the the kid having been shot by IDF- or about the fully private investigation conducted years after by an expert whose reputation came from stating that he have "secret information about Rabin assasination". This second investigation was ordered by a general but always IDF has stated that he did so as a private person. I see sometimes some confussion about the private nature of this second investigation. -- Igor21 18:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
no time to insert this in.
hamas detained al-dura's father: [9]. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 07:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
This is not related to the issue and I do not see the need to add it. -- Igor21 ( talk) 18:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Fallows' article is about a completely speculative conspiratinist report done by a man who has participated in "unveiling" other conspiracies such as Rabin assasination thus achieving zero credibility. This report was ordered by a general of the IDF acting as himself and not acting oficially in any way. Not only the report has never been endorsed by IDF but the general who ordered it has been severely critized, specially for asking it to such a bizarre character. To quote all this rubish here is inuendo. However perhaps with the long quote, the kind of garbagge that is in reality becomes more apparent ("the shadows of the funeral showing that was done before the killing of the kid" comes out directly from the Moon Hoax lore).
It is unbilievable to me that such things can be in a enciclopedia as sources of any other thing than human stupidity and love for conspirationist theories.
I am not going to touch it because I am fed up of discussing non sense.
-- Igor21 ( talk) 18:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
can the reverting editors please explain why Pajamas Media are "hate site" and/or "blog"? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 02:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Pajamas Media admits to being a blog. [10] "Pajamas Media began in 2005 as an affiliation of 90 of the most influential weblogs on the Internet." [11] And as for being a hatesite, well they are certainly heavily biased. So that's two counts of non reliable. If you want we could bring it up at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. // Liftarn ( talk)
Table presents the views of each editor on the subject of Pajamas Media. It is hoped that presenting the evidence will enable us to close this discussion and proceed with construcive editing. And stop the kind of tendatious edit-warring that drives good editors out of the project. PR talk 18:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Editor | Use Pajamas Media? | Pajamas Media a blog? |
Pajamas Media a hate-site? |
Comments made |
---|---|---|---|---|
User:Jaakobou | Yes | No | No | i've seen worse from the guardian, and we use it plenty. Jaakobou 13:08, 7 January 2008 |
User:Liftarn | No | Yes | Maybe | The fully admit that they are a blog (or an aggregation of blogs, basicly a collaborative blog). // Liftarn (talk) |
User:PalestineRemembered | No | Yes | Yes | I called this a hate-site since it contains such material as "I'm not surprised given the Islamic culture of dishonesty". PR 19:04, 6 January 2008 |
User:Igor21 | No | Yes | Likely | certainly a gathering of blogs ... the whole world was fed the Jews-are-child-killers story. ... is not going to stop until the whole article is impregnated of these nauseating lies Igor21 12:20, 7 January 2008 |
Conclusion - Consensus overwhelmingly against using Pajamas Media as a source. PR talk 18:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=526858&TypeID=1&sid=126 channel 10 news report - in hebrew. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 01:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiconspiracy (in english)-- Igor21 ( talk) 15:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
"Independent expert: IDF bullets didn't kill Mohammed al-Dura." [12] I couldn't figure out where to place this new information in this complicated article. If someone can edit it properly it would be very helpful. Thanks. AviLozowick 11:40, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
video worth watching. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koala Paw ( talk • contribs) 22:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
"Karsenty's statements were defamatory" and "[The court] found that his claims had clearly been defamatory." I would suggest this be rewritten as "damaging" or some like adjective. The word "defamatory" is a legal conclusion (at least in the United States), and the conviction was overturned. Since I'm not fluent in French, I would like to verify the actual language used by the court before making any changes. Biccat ( talk) 15:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
There are now two versions for this story – each with equal footing in reality. One is the France 2 version and one is the Karsenty version.
NPOV demand that we "describe the controversy" which means the lead has to give the Karsenty/Shapira/Shahaf/Duriel version and not be based on the France-2 version (as the lead is now).
The lead must state up front that there is a possibility – not ruled out by a court which heard evidence in this matter – that the whole affair is a staged hoax by the TV cameraman who is the reporting journalist. The fact that the "reporting" by the Enderlin (an important part of the France-2 report) – who was not at all at the scene but rather added voice over hours later from his office in Jerusalem – this fact can not be overlooked. -- Julia1987 ( talk) 02:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Just following up on what Jaakobou rightly says about fringe reporting, I'd like to emphasize a couple of points. First, this article is not, under any circumstances, going to state or insinuate a fringe conspiracy theory as fact. I'm not going to recap the whole of Wikipedia:Fringe theories, but having looked into the coverage of the story in some detail, I can confirm that as far as reliable sources are concerned, the vast majority - by a ratio of literally hundreds to one - do not support the conspiracy theory. As I said above, only two mainstream publications have actually advocated the conspiracy theory, as opposed to merely reporting it and attributing it to others. Second, because the conspiracy theory inevitably involves making or insinuating allegations against living people (Enderlin, the cameraman, the dead boy's father) the biographies of living people policy comes into play. This is especially critical given that the allegations have already been the subject of libel litigation. This means that we have to be very conservative about what we say, and very strict in terms of confining ourselves to fully reliable sources.
Some specific comments about the edits I just reverted:
1) "Muhammad al-Durrah and his father Jamal before the shooting on September 30 2000" was changed to "...as seen in the September 30 2000 shooting report." Clear intention here is to insinuate that the shooting was staged. Unacceptably POV.
2) A lot of sourced material was deleted from the lead for no good reason that I can see. I've restored it.
3) "... was widely shown in the media, but is now being challenged as doctored and possibly staged" is a rather obvious example of poisoning the well as well as violating Wikipedia:Fringe theories; the view that the video was "doctored and possibly staged" is, as already said, a fringe theory and this gives it undue weight.
4) "The edited film, consisting of 57 seconds out of 27 minutes of footage" is also poisoning the well as it doesn't bother to explain the context of this. It shouldn't be in the lead in the first place. Detailed context should be presented in the article proper; the lead is supposed to explain the basic facts.
5) "While Shapira's documentary concluded that the boy could not have been shot by the IDF, it affirms the accidental shooting and killing of Mohammed a-Dura's as real and not staged as claimed by others." Blatant POV, to say nothing of the misspelling. It's a statement of a personal opinion as fact.
Finally, with regard to Julia1987's comment that "Nothing on talk that justified this massive change. CJ first gather consensus for your view". Might I point out that the article has been stable for a long time, the only "massive change" is in fact the one that's just been reverted by CJ and myself, and the recent spate of edits has largely been down to Southkept/Julia1987 pushing a particular point of view. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
see this: [17] -- Julia1987 ( talk) 04:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)"NPOV demand that we "describe the controversy" which means the lead has to give the Karsenty/Shapira/Shahaf/Duriel version and not be based on the France-2 version (as the lead is now)."
Comment - now that the media is picking up on recent developments, [18] it would be best to stop dubbing the 'it was a hoax' perspective as "bizarre conspiracy". However, if anyone feels very strongly that it is indeed a fringe theory, WP:FTN would be the proper place to explore this. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I just added a NPOV tag in light of this ongoing and significant discussion. I have no knowledge of any of the facts and will likely not further contribute, but there seems to be a serious dispute as to the facts and how they and the dispute over the facts are being presented. The tag is totally appropriate under the existing circumstances. After all, this is Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not required to perpetuate any media bias, if any. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 16:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The Wall Street Journal yesterday had two articles on the topic of the possibility of the incident reported on this page being a hoax. That is how I became aware of the issue in the first place. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 16:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly, they refer to the "possibility" of it being a hoax - as part of a comment piece on a recent appeal court verdict that has ruled it is not defamatory to suggest it might be. That's pretty weak. As of yet, no mainstream respectable source (in the media or academic world) has given any serious credence to the hoax theory. Given the number of people who would have to have been involved and are still keeping quiet about the fact that the boy is still alive today, this qualifies as a genuine conspiracy theory. Neither the court verdict or the low level reporting of it changes that. Having said that, I'm not going to argue with the NPOV tag because in my view the article as a whole still gives too much weight to the ramblings of conspiracy theorists. Oh and I've also made some small changes to the lead - most are just minor tidy-ups for language and repetition. -- Nickhh ( talk) 17:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy of wiki in regard to posting links to actual video footage such as this at youtube?
10 seconds of raw footage not shown on France 2 (can also be seen on the end of Part II: [19] 18 minutes of France 2 raw footage, Part I: [20] Part II: [21] Can we post such videos on the article page, and if so where? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 01:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
No link to Pallywood from this article ? -- Julia1987 ( talk) 07:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
still no answer here ? -- Julia1987 ( talk) 10:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the wiki def of propaganda it is not necessary for propaganda to be 'proved' true. True or false, the al-Durrah business has been used for propaganda purposes. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 13:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Correct. -- Julia1987 ( talk) 02:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
What I see here over the last week at that 3 editors CJCurrie, ChrisO and nickhh are editwarring their way to make the French court verdict a "fringe" conspiracy theory while keeping the hoax as the official version. On the other side I see some editors trying to maintain NPOV: They don't kick out the France-2 version al together but try to follow wikipedia policy and describe the controversy, say that there are two versions with equal standing (at least now after the French court ruled)
This effort by the trio edit-warriors (one of them violated 3RR) has many aspects: They insist keeping the initial verdict in the article (although the appeals court overruled it) they keep describing the "facts" as they were described by France-2. These are all attempts to function as a "self appointed gate keepers" to prevent the other side "truth" from being in the article while keeping their "truth" as the only version.
So wake up. There is no one "truth" there are now two versions and the edit warriors should allow the article to reflect the new situation.-- Julia1987 ( talk) 02:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
(offtopic note to Nickhh:) please review Wikipedia:CIV#Considerations_concerning_civility. I know the project is in your best interests but it would be helpful if you avoid calling other people's relevant perspectives "nonsense". You could, instead, request for clarifications on why they believe their version to merit attribution and work within' WP:DR. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
"All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing significant views fairly, proportionately and without bias"-- Julia1987 ( talk) 10:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Question - Is anyone willing to do the source work to assert their perspective on proportionality? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Lead need to present both versions:
Both are at least equally valid and deserve equal space. We can no longer rely on any of France-2 words as "facts" . -- Julia1987 ( talk) 17:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Further to the above debate, here's the intro plus some added notes in italics, in a bid to clarify the point
Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah (1988-2000) Arabic: محمد جمال الدرة), was a Palestinian boy who became an icon of the Second Intifada when he was filmed crouched behind his father during a violent clash between Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the Gaza Strip.
The opening paragraph makes no judgement about who might have been responsible for his death. The only reference to him even having been killed is the fact that 2000 is given as the year of his death
Palestinian journalist Talal Abu Rahma [1] filmed the father and son sheltering during a crossfire between troops at an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) outpost and Palestinian police and gunmen shooting from a number of locations.[2] After a burst of gunfire, the two slumped into prone positions. Al-Durrah was reported to have been killed and his father severely injured by Israeli gunfire.
This second paragraph merely refers to the film showing them "slumped into prone positions". It then says Muhammad was reported (ie by Enderlin's voiceover) to have been killed by Israeli gunfire
The footage was made available by the French television station France 2 to other TV networks and was re-broadcast around the world and produced international outrage against the Israeli army and the government.[3] Images from the footage became an iconic symbol of the Palestinian cause and al-Durrah himself was portrayed as an emblem of martyrdom; the footage was shown repeatedly on Arabic television channels and al-Durrah was publicly commemorated in a number of Arab countries.[4]
The third paragraph then explains the impact of the footage (the lead as yet has made no definitive judgement about what precisely happened)
Although the Israeli army issued an apology for shooting al-Durrah, others later disputed the assumed sequence of events and whether the IDF were responsibile for the killing. They disputed the authenticity of the tape and questioned the honesty of the France 2 cameraman and reporter, the source of the fatal bullets,[2] whether Palestinian gunmen had shot him rather than the Israelis and the identity of the boy in the footage. Some speculated that the entire incident had been faked with no actual casualties.[5][6][7][2] Campaigners sought the reopening of the case but did not attract public support from the Israeli government or army. Instead, unofficial investigations were carried out that disputed the official account of the shooting.
The fourth paragraph points out that the IDF officially admitted responsibility - but that also other people publicly doubted this, with some even claiming he was not killed at all. That is, the alternatives are set out briefly
In 2004 France 2 sued the French commentator Philippe Karsenty, who had accused the channel of manipulating the footage and had demanded the firing of Charles Enderlin, the journalist who had produced the original report. An initial court ruling found the claims to be defamatory, however in May 2008, an appeals court overturned the previous verdict and ruled that there were legitimate questions about the authenticity of the reporting. France 2 has stated that it will appeal the case to the Cour de cassation, France's highest court.[8].
This fifth paragraph then refers to the Karsenty court case and discusses the possibility that the incident was staged and/or the footage manipulated. That is, Karsenty's view is highlighted, as is the fact that the latest court verdict backed his right to make that claim
The lead simply doesn't take sides - it broadly reports the main issues as they were reported from 2000 onwards, and covers all the alternatives. Yes there is a genuine dispute in mainstream discourse about which side's bullets may have actually killed Muhammad (although the official Israeli line still seems to be that they admit culpability), but there is no serious backing for the claims apparently being promoted by some that the whole thing was a fake. But despite that, it's all there in the lead. I don't get what you're complaining about. -- Nickhh ( talk) 19:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I wrote this earlier but no one responded. I found these videos compelling. Could someone please respond to this? I would like to put up a link on the article page. What is the policy of wiki in regard to posting links to actual video footage such as this at youtube?
10 seconds of raw footage not shown on France 2 (can also be seen on the end of Part II: [25] 18 minutes of France 2 raw footage, Part I: [26] Part II: [27] Can we post such videos on the article page, and if so where? Thanks Tundrabuggy ( talk) 13:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
"The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article" WP:Lead -- Julia1987 ( talk) 20:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Paragraph 4 of the lead:
Although the Israeli army initially issued an apology for shooting al-Durrah, it released a report of an internal investigation eight weeks later that demonstrated that "it is quite plausible that the boy was hit by Palestinian bullets." [5] Others later disputed the assumed sequence of events, the authenticity of the tape, questioned the honesty of the France 2 cameraman and reporter, the source of the fatal bullets,[2] and the identity of the boy in the footage. Some speculated that the entire incident had been faked with no actual casualties.[6][7][8][2] Campaigners sought the reopening of the case but did not attract public support from the Israeli government or army. Instead, unofficial investigations were carried out that disputed the official account of the shooting.
Yes. I read the lead and recent publications - we need to adapt the lead to a monumental court verdict.
So far this was not done. We can not present the France 2 version as "the truth":
Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah (1988-2000) Arabic: محمد جمال الدرة), was a Palestinian boy who became an icon of the Second Intifada when he was filmed crouched behind his father during a violent clash between Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the Gaza Strip.
Palestinian journalist Talal Abu Rahma [1] filmed the father and son sheltering during a crossfire between troops at an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) outpost and Palestinian police and gunmen shooting from a number of locations.[2] After a burst of gunfire, the two slumped into prone positions. Al-Durrah was reported to have been killed and his father severely injured by Israeli gunfire.-- Julia1987 ( talk) 03:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
ChrisO and NickH, you are overstating your case. It is true that the court case did not find that Karnesty proved his version is the truth. If it had, this article would be due for a much broader rewrite than Julia1987 is asking for – we would state clearly in the lede that “Al-durrah” was a large scale media hoax, describe claims that the IDF had killed him as deliberate deception by France 2, and probably rename the article to something like ‘Al-Durrah media hoax’. But the court did more than just rule that Karnesty is within his freedom of speech rights – it said that upon examination of the rushes, the professional opinion of those who testified cannot be dismissed, and that there is doubts about the authenticity of the story. This suggests that we cannot dismiss these opinions as fringe conspiracy theory. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 15:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
«l’examen des rushes ne permet plus d’écarter les avis des professionnels entendus au cours de la procédure» - (In English: “Examining the rushes no longer makes it possible to dismiss the views of professionals heard during the proceedings”) Canadian Monkey ( talk) 20:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Question: I've asked a question to the point of conflict, and the response wasn't what I expected. I'd appreciate a source based explanation to why "accept[ing] that al-Durrah is dead" is a conspiracy theory or vice-versa - source based note on it is a reasonable mainstream accepted possibility. Has anyone here other than me seen the "Three Bullets and a Dead Child" documentary? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 19:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Small suggestion: How about "reportedly killed by Israeli fire (see also 'controversy')" in the intro? Not sure this solves the issue for everyone, but I figured it was worth suggesting.
Yes. And I wanted to add this paragraph from the Wall St Journal Online here A Hoax?
The court kept its eyes on the evidence. It is impossible in the limited space available here to do justice to a document that deserves line-by-line appreciation. The following examples drawn from the decision are a fair indication of its logical thrust: Material evidence raises legitimate doubts about the authenticity of the al-Durra scene. The video images do not correspond to the voice-over commentary. Mr. Enderlin fed legitimate speculation of deceit by claiming to have footage of Mohammed al Durra's death throes while systematically refusing to reveal it. He aggravated his case by suing analysts who publicly questioned the authenticity of the report. Examination of an 18-minute excerpt of raw footage composed primarily of staged battle scenes, false injuries and comical ambulance evacuations reinforces the possibility that the al-Durra scene, too, was staged. (There is, strictly speaking, no raw footage of the al-Durra scene; all that exists are the six thin slices of images that were spliced together to produce the disputed news report.)
The possibility of a staged scene is further substantiated by expert testimony presented by Mr. Karsenty -- including a 90-page ballistics report and a sworn statement by Dr. Yehuda ben David attributing Jamal al-Durra's scars -- displayed as proof of wounds sustained in the alleged shooting -- to knife and hatchet wounds incurred when he was attacked by Palestinians in 1992. In fact, there is no blood on the father's T-shirt, the boy moves after Mr. Enderlin's voice-over commentary says he is dead, no bullets are seen hitting the alleged victims. And Mr. Enderlin himself had backtracked when the controversy intensified after seasoned journalists Denis Jeambar and Daniel Leconte viewed some of the raw footage in 2004. The news report, he said, corresponds to "the situation." The court, concurring with Messrs. Jeambar and Leconte, considers that journalism must stick to events that actually occur.
The frail evidence submitted by France 2 -- "statements provided by the cameraman" -- is not "perfectly credible either in form or content," the court ruled.
This is not conspiracy theory, but evidence that is being ignored by some people because they apparently favor another version of events. This little bit of Pallywood helped fuel anti-"Zionism" and anti-semitism and it is high time that it was acknowledged for what it is. This is an important decision by judges who got to look at the evidence this time, not a public lynching. There is considerable evidence that the whole thing was a hoax and it is only fair now that it has been adjudicated, to present this view as another mainstream view, and not try to relegate it to a closet somewhere. It has been in the closet long enough. It needs to be fairly aired and that is what wiki is all about. Not about a few people trying to decide what is "mainstream" and what is "fringe." Tundrabuggy ( talk) 02:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
ChrisO, unlike the Wikipedia policy I pointed you to , Wikipedia:Recentism is a personal essay. It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it. Your misleading comment (“We are required to ..”) relying on such personal essays is worrying. In case you hadn’t noticed, a recent ArbCom decision admonished an editor for a very similar misrepresentation of Wikipedia policy.
Putting aside your inappropriate behavior, I am confused as to what you are suggesting. Surely as new facts are uncovered, they should be represented in relevant articles. They should not be given undue weight – but they shouldn’t be censored, either. Prior to the May 21st verdict, we had a fairly neutrally-worded lead, which avoided stating as fact that the boy was killed. Then came the May 21st verdict which made new information available. This information is a court ruling that casts even further doubt on the veracity of the original France 2 report, and clearly states that the opinions of those who claim the whole thing was staged can’t be dismissed. This was followed by dozens of press articles which give more prominence and wider acceptance to the opinion that the event was staged. If any changes are to be made to the lead as a result of this new information, surely they should be in the direction of giving more credence to the “staged” theory, and less credence to the original F2 report. Surprisingly, your response to this new information wasin the opposite direction – you rewrote the lead so as to remove the neutral wording, to state as fact that the boy was killed, and to introduce other, irrelevant POV-pushing material (“The killing of … other Palestinian civilians was strongly criticized by the international community”). This is simply unacceptable. Let me remind you that you are just as much subject to the editing restrictions imposed by Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles as any other editor of this article, and that disruptive editing in violation of wikipedia policies can lead to your being sanctioned. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 16:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
After reading Adam Rose's entire article -- not just the snippet that was quoted in the WP article -- I removed the quote because it does not actually deal with the question of who shot Mohammed al-Dura. I realize SlimVirgin raised an issue of whether Rose is a RS, and I am expressing no opinion on that, as I have not looked into it. Whether he is an RS is really a question for a different article, if anywhere. His real conclusion (which is made clear by reading that snippet in context) is that it does not matter who actually shot al-Dura, because the IDF has shot other Palestinian boys. That is what Rose refers to as the "universal Mohammed al-Dura story", in other words, if not this boy, then other boys. OK, but this article is about this particular boy, and Rose does not reach the conclusion that the IDF shot him, or that they didn't, so his quote does not belong in this article. 6SJ7 07:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
In the head of the article last paragraph, there are dates with only month and day. What year? I see this all the time and it really ruins the value of the information in those articles. I don't know the true dates, so please someone add the year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.193.151.76 ( talk) 16:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Even the Jewish World Review's Sept. 12, 2005, David Gelernter article says:
The previous paragraph troubles me:
That is not reported in the International Hearald Tribune story also cited in the lead, even though it reports that the IHT had seen the whole tape. That sort of thing is so unlikely to have escaped others viewing the unedited footage, that honestly, I don't know what to say.
But as the IHT also refers to the boy as dead, and the only doubt cast on that is someone saying the event might have been staged, there doesn't seem to be any question that the boy named in the title of this article was in fact registered as dead by the local hospital. For that reason, I'm going to remove the suggestion to the contrary from the intro. ← Ben B4 03:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
(back left) Also, why would you trust a source such as that given the description of where the photograph came from, over the sources that named the hospital? ← Ben B4 18:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
why would this information be reverted out of the article? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 08:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The article now creates the sensation that everything was staged. Honestly I do not think so. I have seen the aerial photograph of the place and the account of Fallow is completely unfair and does not fit with the photograph at all (not to say that is based in the end-of-course-work in a press intoxication training). THe first IDF explanation should have more relevance since there was no point to them self accusing themselves and it is not their way of working. Unfortunately we have no rights to publish the photo so we cannot show this key piece of conviction. I will try to found the owner and ask for ritghts. In the meanwhile is nothing to do except reflect what sources say even if are sources as these Fallow who looks to me as 100% unreliable since as I said above is basing his account in the work of the students of intoxication course.-- Igor21 19:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. I was trying to be concise. Now I separate my points.
1-This is the link for the photo [2]. It is below the vidpics in middle page. It would be very good if someone can find the owner for asking permission. It is a photo and shows how false is The Guardian diagram in the references and how false is the diagram that is now in the page supposedly done by the cameraman.
2-Regarding the "end-course project of the intoxication training", the main source for James Fallows article is a work done by some students of an IDF training of a special nature: the fall of last year Gabriel Weimann mentioned the Mohammed al-Dura case in a special course that he teaches at the Israeli Military Academy, National Security and Mass Media and then goes on explaining how the students "investigate" from scratch. I know we cannot cherrypick sources but this particular source seems to me as really biased. "National Security and Mass Media" training does not sound as a CSI training. -- Igor21 17:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Jaackobou : I will explain myself more carefully
1-I am not speaking about the vidpics but about this [3] We need to find the owner to be able of including it.
2-The part of the wikipedia article that says that everything was staged is based in an article of Fallows. This article of Fallows is based in the work that a teacher ask to do to their students. The training were the students were when doing this homework was called "Mass media and National security" and was part of a training for officers of the IDF. My point is that if some students that are doing a training in how spinning the press to become spin doctors of the IDF, do a home work about an issue and this work contradicts the official account of the IDF, it cannot be a reliable source since the aim of the training was precisely to spin and find the truth was not the goal.
This article is completely POV now and it says in big letters that everything was staged. This is because the parts stating that everything was true are being continuously eroded with "was reported" while the home work of the students of "how spin efectively" and the article of Fallows based on it are having undue weight. It is ludicrous to say that the first report of IDF charged israeli soldiers without having studied thoroughly what happened. IDF has a very long record of reporting biased in favour of their officers and soldiers. I do not see why here must be asumed that suddenly they changed their way of working and that students doing a training of how spin to the press are more accurate that the IDF officers that did the original report. -- Igor21 09:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin or Jayjg, since you're the more experienced editors, if you feel you should revert back, do you suppose you might find a way to use the added reference?
Jaakobou, I don't think the phrase "shooting from all directions" makes a lot of sense in English. Do you suppose it means "shooting in all directions?" There are some other usage problems throughout so I'm hoping you can get the assistance of a copyeditor to help.
I don't think either version is biased one way more than the other and I'm worried experienced editors might not be looking at what they are doing very closely, and reverting away a source instead of trying to incorporate it and help with prose.
The one issue I have at present is that "France 2 legal action" is a poor header when the courts have already ruled. The outcome of the libel case would normally be reported in the header, e.g., "Allegations of staging found libelous" or "France 2 and Abu Rahma cleared in court." Any objections to that? Which is better? ← Ben B4 07:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The BBC reported that doctors removed bullets from both Jamal al-Dura's arm and pelvis[18] however, according to the doctors, no bullets were found because they fragmented upon entering the body; yet no fragments were recovered either.
i've added a lot of new info to the article, and quite frankly, it's getting irritating that it's being reverted out of the article without proper reasoning.
please raise your issues to each part here before making the mass revert. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I thing the header of the sections are completely POV. "Initially reported" implies that afterwards it was proofed as false but this has not happened. The so called "initially reported" facts are still the official reported facts. Some people have arised questions but I do not see them as relevant enough to change the whole article. I spoke above about Fallows source so let us now comment about this guy who has "surprising information about Rabin assasination" and gave IDF hints about what happened with Al-Durrah. To have "surprising information about Rabin assasination" only known by him is a good credential? Has he anything "surprising" about Bermudas Triangle too? I agree with a section of "doubts" or "controversies" but not about Wikipedia backing up bizarre non-official investigations in the whole article. -- Igor21 16:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
most of what was initially reported has later been brought into contention.. so much contention (unlike the rabin case) that much of what was initially reported was later reported differently. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 18:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Jaakobou : It is the same discussion. This trick you are using is as old as wikipedia. "It was initially reported that Kennedy was killed by a single sniper placed in a nearby building" and then in "Controversies" you put "Several sources speak about one or more shooters above the grass knoll". You can do this in many articles "It was initially reported that Amstrong was the first man on the moon" "Some sources have arised questions about shadows and craters under the lunar module so some people says it was staged". And so on. I have checked in Betselem website and the kid is there as a casualty. We cannot do primary investigation not to say primary conspirationist investigation. So for wikipedia he is dead. There are doubts about who kill him but the only official report (from IDF) says that the probability is on having been killed by their soldiers as collateral damage. This what must be called "official version" as in 9/11 official version is that some islamists crash the planes. You can ask for "Other theories" section and there you can state that the kid is alive and was killed by his father.-- Igor21 17:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
i'd like to hear the reasoning for the connection of a libel lawsuit filed by "'France 2" and between claiming that France 2 was cleared in court. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 15:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Several times in the article he is mentioned as being dead, yet he is listed in the category of people being "possibly living". If we know for sure that he is dead, why is he still in that category? Nateabel 03:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Everybody know that he is dead and he is listed in many respectable lists of victims of the conflict (e.g. Peace Now website). In fact IDF accepted him being dead and having been killed by loose bullets from an israeli soldier. However this is Wikipedia and everybody with patience enough can cause a conflict big enough to make editors accept bizarre wordings that induce the reader to doubt about evidence. Anti-conspirationist manpower is limited while conspirationist energy is infinite so anti-conspirationist editors must concentrate in protecting big articles such 9/11, the Triangle of Bermudas, etc.. so here we have this poor kid being "possibly living" because nobody has the time to remove the inuendo that has been constructed so masterly and carefully to mislead the reader. For me do nothing about this is rather vomiting but I must accept that I do not have the hundreads of hours that are needed to make truth prevail in this article so I carry on with my live.-- Igor21 19:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not goint to read again the spin you have done in the article. The IDF initially admitted that it was "probably responsible" for killing Muhammad al-Durrah and expressed sorrow at his death. IDF operations chief Giora Eiland announced that a preliminary investigation revealed that "the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers from the outpost at Netzarim". An IDF inquiry released November 27, 2000, reached different conclusions. Commander Major General Yom Tov Samia stated, "A comprehensive investigation conducted in the last weeks casts serious doubt that the boy was hit by Israeli fire," he said. "It is quite plausible that the boy was hit by Palestinian bullets in the course of the exchange of fire that took place in the area.". IDF is fair enough to accept that is not sure who killed the child. You are the only one who thinks that he was killed intentionally and that is still alive. You have constructed the article as if it were a media issue. If you have blood in your veins remove him from the "possibly living" cathegory and let him rest in peace once and forever.-- Igor21 19:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
With regard to this story [5]: Obviously, Cybercast News Service, a right-wing partisan website, is not a reliable source. But even if we assume that this particular story is reliable, all it says is that Denis Jeambar and Daniel Leconte said that Abu Rahma retracted his deposition. In other words, it's hearsay, and hearsay evidence is not sufficient to support assertions like the cameraman later denied having made one of the statements or The authenticity of this affidavit is unclear. We must be particularly careful since WP:BLP applies, in this case to Talal Abu Rahma, who is being accused of giving a false deposition. Sanguinalis 02:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why you have a problem with me removing this material. You yourself say "i don't think we should discredit anyone without sourcing". These particular claims were based on one Cybercast News Service article. I examined that article and it only contains hearsay evidence on this point. If there is other evidence besides the word of two Frenchmen that Abu Rahma has retracted all or part of his affadavit, then no one has found it. Also, if you're going to participate in the English-language Wikipedia, can you please learn how to use capital letters? Sanguinalis 10:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
This article from CNS is pure spin. The filmmaker Laconte wrote shortly after an article in Le Figaro denying what it is said in the CNS post and explaining that he abandoned the investigation because he felt instrumentalized by Mena. He said that his only remark in this affaire is that it is imposible to proof that the kid was killed by israelian bullets and that Enderlin should not have said so THE SAME AFTERNOON but he should have waited for the conclusions of the Tsahal (that were published some time after and said as it is known that "the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers from the outpost at Netzarim"). Laconte says in the article that in his opinion the incident was not staged and that Mohamed Al-Durrah is the kid who died in front of the camera. You can read this in here [7]. So this article from CNS is as valuable as Von Daniken remarks about the Mayas. -- Igor21 14:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this must be in the article . "The authenticity of this affidavit is unclear. It was apparently given to the Palestine Centre for Human Rights in Gaza on October 3 2000, and signed by the cameraman in front of a lawyer, Raji Sourani. France 2's communications director, Christine Delavennat, later said that Abu Rahma "denied making a statement — falsely attributed to him by a human rights group [the Palestine Centre for Human Rights] — to the effect that the Israeli army fired at the boy in cold blood." [1] since is evident that the IDF does not shot in cold blod to the kid and nobody present there can say so.-- Igor21 09:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not know how this can be worded but my point is that we must distinguish from what the cameraman said and what the Palestinian association said that he said. The cameraman and everybody involved except the Palestinian associacion, denied that he said that the kid was killed in cold blood. So even if the affidavit was signed, he retreated from it afterwards and thus eliminates any relevance from it (except as a litmus of the will to spin of this Palestinian association). So more than discuss the authenticity of the afidavit, the emphasis must be in the fact that when everybody (the cameraman + the french journalists) was able to speak without pressure, they went for and accidental death as collateral damage, ruling out both a deliberate murder by IDF and a staged incident.-- Igor21 08:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
No. In general I hate spining and propaganda (from both sides). I prefer accounts from witnesses and in this case the winesses -including IDF- are clear. -- Igor21 15:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Igor21: I'm still very confused by your sequence of posts, and I hope you can clarify. You seem to be taking it as known fact that Abu Rahma has etracted his affidavit, yet the only evidence that has been presented to support this are statements from two French journalists and one France 2 employee on the Cybercast News Service website. You seem to agree with me that this webite is not a reliable source - you compared it to von Däniken's theories. So what is your basis for believing that "the cameraman...denied that he said that the kid was killed in cold blood" and that he "retreated" from his affidavit? Sanguinalis 02:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not like articles being written as an ongoing investigation when all the data is on the table. What the group formed by the Frenchs+the cameraman says is explained with the nuances of each one in the link in french I provided. There is the article of Laconte in Le Figaro were he said that Enderlin should have not said that the bullets were coming from IDF and two comments of Enderlin were he says that everybody on site agree on this and that IDF confirmed the likeliness some days after. So from this link emerges a solid position with two clear things 1)Enderlin was imprudent in the first moment and 2)his guess (in fact the guess of Talal Rahma was confirmed by IDF that justified the incident in the violence of the palestinians and the presence of childs in a war place. Apart from this, the french say that Mena was manipulating (Laconte says and Enderlin agrees and explains the Mena campaign for bluring the facts). This is what must be stated in the article as the position of these Frenchs+Rahma. The story of the afidavit and the Palestinian Association is another story with no relevance once the French and Rahma have a clear position clearly written. I do not know if he retracted, if he do not signed it or what, but it is clear that neither him nor the French are backing up in any way what is said in the afidavit. And yes, that website is devoted to misinformation and spining and should not be used as source in Wikipedia, not to say for explaining what said the French when we have a link written from the hand of both parts of French (Laconte and Enderlin) where they declare everything they want to say about the facts. Perhaps we should ask for a formal translation of the french text. -- Igor21 18:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I also can read french and when Enderlin says : "Mais revenons à l’article de Denis Jeambar et Daniel Leconte. Ils posent la question suivante : pourquoi Enderlin a-t-il dit dans son reportage que les balles venaient de la position israélienne ? Voici les réponses : D’abord, parce que, au moment de la diffusion, le correspondant de France 2 à Gaza, Talal, qui a filmé la scène, indiquait que tel était le cas." So he does not say that Talal said that "the kid was killed in cold blood. Secondly Enderlin says "Denis Jeambar et Daniel Leconte évoquent l’utilisation qui a été faite de l’image de la mort de l’enfant et posent ainsi un problème fondamental : lors de la réalisation de son reportage, un journaliste doit-il tenir compte de l’usage malhonnête qui pourrait en être fait ultérieurement par des groupes extrémistes ? Une telle exigence signifierait une inacceptable censure à la source". For me he is saying that say that was killed in cold blood is "usage malhonéte". But all this is speculative. I have no formal statement about why or if he signed that affidavit and if he retracted of just choose to stop speaking about it. -- Igor21 18:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
What you say is very wikipedian but is totally absurd in real world. If Enderlin knows that a presential witness thinks that the kid was killed in cold blood by IDf he would say all the time.-- Igor21 08:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Have editors seen this post: IDF demands uncut al-Dura tape? I have glanced over it and the Wikipedia article. I quickly decided that I didn't know enough to add anything to the article so I thought I would just pass it along. Sbowers3 21:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
A French appeals court has ordered the full unedited tape to be released. [8] Sbowers3 05:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
< http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/908848.html> Government Press Office Director Daniel Seaman said Monday that the September 2000 death of Palestinian child Mohammed Al-Dura in the Gaza Strip was staged. Seaman made the comments in a letter he sent responding to a demand that he strip France 2 journalists of their GPO credentials. France 2 broadcast the footage of Al-Dura's death in September 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cremona ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
A recently released document, for the first time, Israel officially responded to this incident, denying that the boy was killed by israeli fire, and claiming some of the footage was staged. The statement was released by Government Press Office director Daniel Seaman. As part of the letter, they inform of their intention to sue to revoke journalist documents from France 2 unless they appologize. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3455496,00.html (The hebrew version of the article links to the original letter (in Hebrew): http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/1_10_07/index1.htm Yonyb 21:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
OK then. Can you please tell us what is this document, who is signing it and what new research is based on?-- Igor21 16:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
hebrew linkage: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-1769288,00.html http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/1_10_07/index1.htm http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-294448,00.html http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3455459,00.html http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3455479,00.html -- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
So all in all, the document was just a written statement from the Governement Press Office to silence the fanatics that in Israel were asking for IDF denying even the posibility of the bullets coming out from one of their weapons. Since spin is normally conducted by Press Offices the selection of the signer was very adecuate. The importance of the document is clearly shown by the fact that was not released in English and nobody in the world has cared a fig about what says.-- Igor21 17:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
It is becoming clear that, no matter your POV, there is a strong possibility that the al-Dura footage was staged, or otherwise faked in some way. At what point does the word "allegedly" need to start appearing throughout this article? And at what point could we conclude that this entire episode was a hoax? I'm not suggesting we're there yet, but it does seem highly possible that the tapes will expose this entire episode as a fraud. Schrodingers Mongoose 01:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
About content and not about contributors : The idea that the kid is alive and another one was buried in his grave is not accepted by nobody in the mainstream media. When someone spokes about the "investigative team" should explain if he is speaking about the original IDF investigation -that established that there was a probability of the the kid having been shot by IDF- or about the fully private investigation conducted years after by an expert whose reputation came from stating that he have "secret information about Rabin assasination". This second investigation was ordered by a general but always IDF has stated that he did so as a private person. I see sometimes some confussion about the private nature of this second investigation. -- Igor21 18:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
no time to insert this in.
hamas detained al-dura's father: [9]. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 07:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
This is not related to the issue and I do not see the need to add it. -- Igor21 ( talk) 18:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Fallows' article is about a completely speculative conspiratinist report done by a man who has participated in "unveiling" other conspiracies such as Rabin assasination thus achieving zero credibility. This report was ordered by a general of the IDF acting as himself and not acting oficially in any way. Not only the report has never been endorsed by IDF but the general who ordered it has been severely critized, specially for asking it to such a bizarre character. To quote all this rubish here is inuendo. However perhaps with the long quote, the kind of garbagge that is in reality becomes more apparent ("the shadows of the funeral showing that was done before the killing of the kid" comes out directly from the Moon Hoax lore).
It is unbilievable to me that such things can be in a enciclopedia as sources of any other thing than human stupidity and love for conspirationist theories.
I am not going to touch it because I am fed up of discussing non sense.
-- Igor21 ( talk) 18:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
can the reverting editors please explain why Pajamas Media are "hate site" and/or "blog"? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 02:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Pajamas Media admits to being a blog. [10] "Pajamas Media began in 2005 as an affiliation of 90 of the most influential weblogs on the Internet." [11] And as for being a hatesite, well they are certainly heavily biased. So that's two counts of non reliable. If you want we could bring it up at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. // Liftarn ( talk)
Table presents the views of each editor on the subject of Pajamas Media. It is hoped that presenting the evidence will enable us to close this discussion and proceed with construcive editing. And stop the kind of tendatious edit-warring that drives good editors out of the project. PR talk 18:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Editor | Use Pajamas Media? | Pajamas Media a blog? |
Pajamas Media a hate-site? |
Comments made |
---|---|---|---|---|
User:Jaakobou | Yes | No | No | i've seen worse from the guardian, and we use it plenty. Jaakobou 13:08, 7 January 2008 |
User:Liftarn | No | Yes | Maybe | The fully admit that they are a blog (or an aggregation of blogs, basicly a collaborative blog). // Liftarn (talk) |
User:PalestineRemembered | No | Yes | Yes | I called this a hate-site since it contains such material as "I'm not surprised given the Islamic culture of dishonesty". PR 19:04, 6 January 2008 |
User:Igor21 | No | Yes | Likely | certainly a gathering of blogs ... the whole world was fed the Jews-are-child-killers story. ... is not going to stop until the whole article is impregnated of these nauseating lies Igor21 12:20, 7 January 2008 |
Conclusion - Consensus overwhelmingly against using Pajamas Media as a source. PR talk 18:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=526858&TypeID=1&sid=126 channel 10 news report - in hebrew. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 01:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiconspiracy (in english)-- Igor21 ( talk) 15:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
"Independent expert: IDF bullets didn't kill Mohammed al-Dura." [12] I couldn't figure out where to place this new information in this complicated article. If someone can edit it properly it would be very helpful. Thanks. AviLozowick 11:40, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
video worth watching. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koala Paw ( talk • contribs) 22:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
"Karsenty's statements were defamatory" and "[The court] found that his claims had clearly been defamatory." I would suggest this be rewritten as "damaging" or some like adjective. The word "defamatory" is a legal conclusion (at least in the United States), and the conviction was overturned. Since I'm not fluent in French, I would like to verify the actual language used by the court before making any changes. Biccat ( talk) 15:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
There are now two versions for this story – each with equal footing in reality. One is the France 2 version and one is the Karsenty version.
NPOV demand that we "describe the controversy" which means the lead has to give the Karsenty/Shapira/Shahaf/Duriel version and not be based on the France-2 version (as the lead is now).
The lead must state up front that there is a possibility – not ruled out by a court which heard evidence in this matter – that the whole affair is a staged hoax by the TV cameraman who is the reporting journalist. The fact that the "reporting" by the Enderlin (an important part of the France-2 report) – who was not at all at the scene but rather added voice over hours later from his office in Jerusalem – this fact can not be overlooked. -- Julia1987 ( talk) 02:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Just following up on what Jaakobou rightly says about fringe reporting, I'd like to emphasize a couple of points. First, this article is not, under any circumstances, going to state or insinuate a fringe conspiracy theory as fact. I'm not going to recap the whole of Wikipedia:Fringe theories, but having looked into the coverage of the story in some detail, I can confirm that as far as reliable sources are concerned, the vast majority - by a ratio of literally hundreds to one - do not support the conspiracy theory. As I said above, only two mainstream publications have actually advocated the conspiracy theory, as opposed to merely reporting it and attributing it to others. Second, because the conspiracy theory inevitably involves making or insinuating allegations against living people (Enderlin, the cameraman, the dead boy's father) the biographies of living people policy comes into play. This is especially critical given that the allegations have already been the subject of libel litigation. This means that we have to be very conservative about what we say, and very strict in terms of confining ourselves to fully reliable sources.
Some specific comments about the edits I just reverted:
1) "Muhammad al-Durrah and his father Jamal before the shooting on September 30 2000" was changed to "...as seen in the September 30 2000 shooting report." Clear intention here is to insinuate that the shooting was staged. Unacceptably POV.
2) A lot of sourced material was deleted from the lead for no good reason that I can see. I've restored it.
3) "... was widely shown in the media, but is now being challenged as doctored and possibly staged" is a rather obvious example of poisoning the well as well as violating Wikipedia:Fringe theories; the view that the video was "doctored and possibly staged" is, as already said, a fringe theory and this gives it undue weight.
4) "The edited film, consisting of 57 seconds out of 27 minutes of footage" is also poisoning the well as it doesn't bother to explain the context of this. It shouldn't be in the lead in the first place. Detailed context should be presented in the article proper; the lead is supposed to explain the basic facts.
5) "While Shapira's documentary concluded that the boy could not have been shot by the IDF, it affirms the accidental shooting and killing of Mohammed a-Dura's as real and not staged as claimed by others." Blatant POV, to say nothing of the misspelling. It's a statement of a personal opinion as fact.
Finally, with regard to Julia1987's comment that "Nothing on talk that justified this massive change. CJ first gather consensus for your view". Might I point out that the article has been stable for a long time, the only "massive change" is in fact the one that's just been reverted by CJ and myself, and the recent spate of edits has largely been down to Southkept/Julia1987 pushing a particular point of view. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
see this: [17] -- Julia1987 ( talk) 04:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)"NPOV demand that we "describe the controversy" which means the lead has to give the Karsenty/Shapira/Shahaf/Duriel version and not be based on the France-2 version (as the lead is now)."
Comment - now that the media is picking up on recent developments, [18] it would be best to stop dubbing the 'it was a hoax' perspective as "bizarre conspiracy". However, if anyone feels very strongly that it is indeed a fringe theory, WP:FTN would be the proper place to explore this. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I just added a NPOV tag in light of this ongoing and significant discussion. I have no knowledge of any of the facts and will likely not further contribute, but there seems to be a serious dispute as to the facts and how they and the dispute over the facts are being presented. The tag is totally appropriate under the existing circumstances. After all, this is Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not required to perpetuate any media bias, if any. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 16:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The Wall Street Journal yesterday had two articles on the topic of the possibility of the incident reported on this page being a hoax. That is how I became aware of the issue in the first place. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 16:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly, they refer to the "possibility" of it being a hoax - as part of a comment piece on a recent appeal court verdict that has ruled it is not defamatory to suggest it might be. That's pretty weak. As of yet, no mainstream respectable source (in the media or academic world) has given any serious credence to the hoax theory. Given the number of people who would have to have been involved and are still keeping quiet about the fact that the boy is still alive today, this qualifies as a genuine conspiracy theory. Neither the court verdict or the low level reporting of it changes that. Having said that, I'm not going to argue with the NPOV tag because in my view the article as a whole still gives too much weight to the ramblings of conspiracy theorists. Oh and I've also made some small changes to the lead - most are just minor tidy-ups for language and repetition. -- Nickhh ( talk) 17:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy of wiki in regard to posting links to actual video footage such as this at youtube?
10 seconds of raw footage not shown on France 2 (can also be seen on the end of Part II: [19] 18 minutes of France 2 raw footage, Part I: [20] Part II: [21] Can we post such videos on the article page, and if so where? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 01:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
No link to Pallywood from this article ? -- Julia1987 ( talk) 07:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
still no answer here ? -- Julia1987 ( talk) 10:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the wiki def of propaganda it is not necessary for propaganda to be 'proved' true. True or false, the al-Durrah business has been used for propaganda purposes. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 13:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Correct. -- Julia1987 ( talk) 02:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
What I see here over the last week at that 3 editors CJCurrie, ChrisO and nickhh are editwarring their way to make the French court verdict a "fringe" conspiracy theory while keeping the hoax as the official version. On the other side I see some editors trying to maintain NPOV: They don't kick out the France-2 version al together but try to follow wikipedia policy and describe the controversy, say that there are two versions with equal standing (at least now after the French court ruled)
This effort by the trio edit-warriors (one of them violated 3RR) has many aspects: They insist keeping the initial verdict in the article (although the appeals court overruled it) they keep describing the "facts" as they were described by France-2. These are all attempts to function as a "self appointed gate keepers" to prevent the other side "truth" from being in the article while keeping their "truth" as the only version.
So wake up. There is no one "truth" there are now two versions and the edit warriors should allow the article to reflect the new situation.-- Julia1987 ( talk) 02:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
(offtopic note to Nickhh:) please review Wikipedia:CIV#Considerations_concerning_civility. I know the project is in your best interests but it would be helpful if you avoid calling other people's relevant perspectives "nonsense". You could, instead, request for clarifications on why they believe their version to merit attribution and work within' WP:DR. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
"All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing significant views fairly, proportionately and without bias"-- Julia1987 ( talk) 10:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Question - Is anyone willing to do the source work to assert their perspective on proportionality? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Lead need to present both versions:
Both are at least equally valid and deserve equal space. We can no longer rely on any of France-2 words as "facts" . -- Julia1987 ( talk) 17:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Further to the above debate, here's the intro plus some added notes in italics, in a bid to clarify the point
Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah (1988-2000) Arabic: محمد جمال الدرة), was a Palestinian boy who became an icon of the Second Intifada when he was filmed crouched behind his father during a violent clash between Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the Gaza Strip.
The opening paragraph makes no judgement about who might have been responsible for his death. The only reference to him even having been killed is the fact that 2000 is given as the year of his death
Palestinian journalist Talal Abu Rahma [1] filmed the father and son sheltering during a crossfire between troops at an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) outpost and Palestinian police and gunmen shooting from a number of locations.[2] After a burst of gunfire, the two slumped into prone positions. Al-Durrah was reported to have been killed and his father severely injured by Israeli gunfire.
This second paragraph merely refers to the film showing them "slumped into prone positions". It then says Muhammad was reported (ie by Enderlin's voiceover) to have been killed by Israeli gunfire
The footage was made available by the French television station France 2 to other TV networks and was re-broadcast around the world and produced international outrage against the Israeli army and the government.[3] Images from the footage became an iconic symbol of the Palestinian cause and al-Durrah himself was portrayed as an emblem of martyrdom; the footage was shown repeatedly on Arabic television channels and al-Durrah was publicly commemorated in a number of Arab countries.[4]
The third paragraph then explains the impact of the footage (the lead as yet has made no definitive judgement about what precisely happened)
Although the Israeli army issued an apology for shooting al-Durrah, others later disputed the assumed sequence of events and whether the IDF were responsibile for the killing. They disputed the authenticity of the tape and questioned the honesty of the France 2 cameraman and reporter, the source of the fatal bullets,[2] whether Palestinian gunmen had shot him rather than the Israelis and the identity of the boy in the footage. Some speculated that the entire incident had been faked with no actual casualties.[5][6][7][2] Campaigners sought the reopening of the case but did not attract public support from the Israeli government or army. Instead, unofficial investigations were carried out that disputed the official account of the shooting.
The fourth paragraph points out that the IDF officially admitted responsibility - but that also other people publicly doubted this, with some even claiming he was not killed at all. That is, the alternatives are set out briefly
In 2004 France 2 sued the French commentator Philippe Karsenty, who had accused the channel of manipulating the footage and had demanded the firing of Charles Enderlin, the journalist who had produced the original report. An initial court ruling found the claims to be defamatory, however in May 2008, an appeals court overturned the previous verdict and ruled that there were legitimate questions about the authenticity of the reporting. France 2 has stated that it will appeal the case to the Cour de cassation, France's highest court.[8].
This fifth paragraph then refers to the Karsenty court case and discusses the possibility that the incident was staged and/or the footage manipulated. That is, Karsenty's view is highlighted, as is the fact that the latest court verdict backed his right to make that claim
The lead simply doesn't take sides - it broadly reports the main issues as they were reported from 2000 onwards, and covers all the alternatives. Yes there is a genuine dispute in mainstream discourse about which side's bullets may have actually killed Muhammad (although the official Israeli line still seems to be that they admit culpability), but there is no serious backing for the claims apparently being promoted by some that the whole thing was a fake. But despite that, it's all there in the lead. I don't get what you're complaining about. -- Nickhh ( talk) 19:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I wrote this earlier but no one responded. I found these videos compelling. Could someone please respond to this? I would like to put up a link on the article page. What is the policy of wiki in regard to posting links to actual video footage such as this at youtube?
10 seconds of raw footage not shown on France 2 (can also be seen on the end of Part II: [25] 18 minutes of France 2 raw footage, Part I: [26] Part II: [27] Can we post such videos on the article page, and if so where? Thanks Tundrabuggy ( talk) 13:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
"The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article" WP:Lead -- Julia1987 ( talk) 20:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Paragraph 4 of the lead:
Although the Israeli army initially issued an apology for shooting al-Durrah, it released a report of an internal investigation eight weeks later that demonstrated that "it is quite plausible that the boy was hit by Palestinian bullets." [5] Others later disputed the assumed sequence of events, the authenticity of the tape, questioned the honesty of the France 2 cameraman and reporter, the source of the fatal bullets,[2] and the identity of the boy in the footage. Some speculated that the entire incident had been faked with no actual casualties.[6][7][8][2] Campaigners sought the reopening of the case but did not attract public support from the Israeli government or army. Instead, unofficial investigations were carried out that disputed the official account of the shooting.
Yes. I read the lead and recent publications - we need to adapt the lead to a monumental court verdict.
So far this was not done. We can not present the France 2 version as "the truth":
Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah (1988-2000) Arabic: محمد جمال الدرة), was a Palestinian boy who became an icon of the Second Intifada when he was filmed crouched behind his father during a violent clash between Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the Gaza Strip.
Palestinian journalist Talal Abu Rahma [1] filmed the father and son sheltering during a crossfire between troops at an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) outpost and Palestinian police and gunmen shooting from a number of locations.[2] After a burst of gunfire, the two slumped into prone positions. Al-Durrah was reported to have been killed and his father severely injured by Israeli gunfire.-- Julia1987 ( talk) 03:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
ChrisO and NickH, you are overstating your case. It is true that the court case did not find that Karnesty proved his version is the truth. If it had, this article would be due for a much broader rewrite than Julia1987 is asking for – we would state clearly in the lede that “Al-durrah” was a large scale media hoax, describe claims that the IDF had killed him as deliberate deception by France 2, and probably rename the article to something like ‘Al-Durrah media hoax’. But the court did more than just rule that Karnesty is within his freedom of speech rights – it said that upon examination of the rushes, the professional opinion of those who testified cannot be dismissed, and that there is doubts about the authenticity of the story. This suggests that we cannot dismiss these opinions as fringe conspiracy theory. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 15:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
«l’examen des rushes ne permet plus d’écarter les avis des professionnels entendus au cours de la procédure» - (In English: “Examining the rushes no longer makes it possible to dismiss the views of professionals heard during the proceedings”) Canadian Monkey ( talk) 20:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Question: I've asked a question to the point of conflict, and the response wasn't what I expected. I'd appreciate a source based explanation to why "accept[ing] that al-Durrah is dead" is a conspiracy theory or vice-versa - source based note on it is a reasonable mainstream accepted possibility. Has anyone here other than me seen the "Three Bullets and a Dead Child" documentary? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 19:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Small suggestion: How about "reportedly killed by Israeli fire (see also 'controversy')" in the intro? Not sure this solves the issue for everyone, but I figured it was worth suggesting.
Yes. And I wanted to add this paragraph from the Wall St Journal Online here A Hoax?
The court kept its eyes on the evidence. It is impossible in the limited space available here to do justice to a document that deserves line-by-line appreciation. The following examples drawn from the decision are a fair indication of its logical thrust: Material evidence raises legitimate doubts about the authenticity of the al-Durra scene. The video images do not correspond to the voice-over commentary. Mr. Enderlin fed legitimate speculation of deceit by claiming to have footage of Mohammed al Durra's death throes while systematically refusing to reveal it. He aggravated his case by suing analysts who publicly questioned the authenticity of the report. Examination of an 18-minute excerpt of raw footage composed primarily of staged battle scenes, false injuries and comical ambulance evacuations reinforces the possibility that the al-Durra scene, too, was staged. (There is, strictly speaking, no raw footage of the al-Durra scene; all that exists are the six thin slices of images that were spliced together to produce the disputed news report.)
The possibility of a staged scene is further substantiated by expert testimony presented by Mr. Karsenty -- including a 90-page ballistics report and a sworn statement by Dr. Yehuda ben David attributing Jamal al-Durra's scars -- displayed as proof of wounds sustained in the alleged shooting -- to knife and hatchet wounds incurred when he was attacked by Palestinians in 1992. In fact, there is no blood on the father's T-shirt, the boy moves after Mr. Enderlin's voice-over commentary says he is dead, no bullets are seen hitting the alleged victims. And Mr. Enderlin himself had backtracked when the controversy intensified after seasoned journalists Denis Jeambar and Daniel Leconte viewed some of the raw footage in 2004. The news report, he said, corresponds to "the situation." The court, concurring with Messrs. Jeambar and Leconte, considers that journalism must stick to events that actually occur.
The frail evidence submitted by France 2 -- "statements provided by the cameraman" -- is not "perfectly credible either in form or content," the court ruled.
This is not conspiracy theory, but evidence that is being ignored by some people because they apparently favor another version of events. This little bit of Pallywood helped fuel anti-"Zionism" and anti-semitism and it is high time that it was acknowledged for what it is. This is an important decision by judges who got to look at the evidence this time, not a public lynching. There is considerable evidence that the whole thing was a hoax and it is only fair now that it has been adjudicated, to present this view as another mainstream view, and not try to relegate it to a closet somewhere. It has been in the closet long enough. It needs to be fairly aired and that is what wiki is all about. Not about a few people trying to decide what is "mainstream" and what is "fringe." Tundrabuggy ( talk) 02:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
ChrisO, unlike the Wikipedia policy I pointed you to , Wikipedia:Recentism is a personal essay. It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it. Your misleading comment (“We are required to ..”) relying on such personal essays is worrying. In case you hadn’t noticed, a recent ArbCom decision admonished an editor for a very similar misrepresentation of Wikipedia policy.
Putting aside your inappropriate behavior, I am confused as to what you are suggesting. Surely as new facts are uncovered, they should be represented in relevant articles. They should not be given undue weight – but they shouldn’t be censored, either. Prior to the May 21st verdict, we had a fairly neutrally-worded lead, which avoided stating as fact that the boy was killed. Then came the May 21st verdict which made new information available. This information is a court ruling that casts even further doubt on the veracity of the original France 2 report, and clearly states that the opinions of those who claim the whole thing was staged can’t be dismissed. This was followed by dozens of press articles which give more prominence and wider acceptance to the opinion that the event was staged. If any changes are to be made to the lead as a result of this new information, surely they should be in the direction of giving more credence to the “staged” theory, and less credence to the original F2 report. Surprisingly, your response to this new information wasin the opposite direction – you rewrote the lead so as to remove the neutral wording, to state as fact that the boy was killed, and to introduce other, irrelevant POV-pushing material (“The killing of … other Palestinian civilians was strongly criticized by the international community”). This is simply unacceptable. Let me remind you that you are just as much subject to the editing restrictions imposed by Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles as any other editor of this article, and that disruptive editing in violation of wikipedia policies can lead to your being sanctioned. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 16:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)