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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Talk was 164k, time to archive again. For full disclosure, I would like to note that I was personally involved in many of the now-dead threads, some of which were quite contentious. Kaisershatner 14:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
This: "Tytell concluded that the documents were not produced on a typewriter in the early 1970s but were produced on a computer in a Times New Roman typestyle that would not have been available at that time."
is irrelevant and should not be listed under the "Panel's view" since the Panel clearly said they would not comment on whether the documents were fake or not. That is Tytell's view and that panel had the opportunity to accept it and they didn't. I think it should be either removed, or at the very least, moved.
After reading some of the comments below, there is obviously someone ediiting who takes the position that the documents wer proven to be false. That is not only wrong, that is dishonest.
Whoever this person is, they should be banned from editting this section.
-Rob S.
I ran across this analysis of the documents, which purports to prove that the documents were not products of microsoft word. The author, a Utah State University professor named David Hailey Jr, concludes that the documents were typed, but he doesn't make any claim as to their authenticity. I should add that this is a second edition of his study, posted to his website in December 2005. He claims to have evaluated Original documents (not faxed ones). Is any of this relevent to the discussion? Jarad 08:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
A user named "SpinyNorman" changed the opening sentence of this article from:
to:
claiming that he "removed some POV".
The fact that the so-called Killian documents were purportedly authentic, but were later identified by some experts as almost certain forgeries, is the central issue concerning this controversy. Stating that fact in the opening sentence of the article does not in any way violate NPOV. Suppressing it does.
Currently, the article says,
Are there any genuine experts who don't consider them to be forgeries?
It's been over a year; isn't it about time we recognized that this is a settled issue?
—wwoods
18:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
It depends, some may not have retracted the statements they made before. Mary Mapes says they are real. Even now she does not say they are fakes. It is a good read. After that you can reat the simple rant from talk.bizarre. Dominick (TALK) 21:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
No qualified expert has ever asserted that the documents are authentic. Uncontradicted analysis by experts in typerwriter and computer technology demonstrates clearly that they are forgeries. Mary Mapes is not an expert in anything but irresponsible journalism.
Yes, I do seriously want to make that claim. No qualified expert has ever asserted that the documents are authentic. If you seriously dispute this, you can easily disprove it by identifying one such expert. But in fact, no competent document examiner would assert that the documents are authentic without examining the originals, which are not available in this case. The independent panel created by CBS (a lawyer and a journalist) were not themselves qualified experts. They did not attempt to reach a definite conclusion regarding the authenticity of the documents. They did, however, cite the conclusion of a highly-qualified forensic document examiner who concluded that the documents are forgeries, and stated that they "found his analysis sound in terms of why he believed the documents were not authentic." There is, in fact, conclusive evidence (to a reasonable certainty) that the documents are forgeries. This is not merely the opinion of various individuals, it is a conclusion based on undisputed analysis by qualified experts.
--Rob S.
Rob, I never said that "No expert has said they are authentic, so they are fakes". I did say "No expert has said they are authentic", which is a fact. This refutes the claim that the authenticity of the documents is disputed among experts. I've also noted that "some experts have identified the documents as almost certain forgeries". It's the analysis by these experts which proves the documents are fakes. 71.212.31.95 17:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I did a little fact-checking last night. Almost every blog-based claim I checked regarding formatting, spacing, kerning, lingo, signature blocks, quotes, etc was easily disproved with the most rudimentary checking. Many of these were lifted verbatim from conservative blogs with absolutely no references. Further, even one claim which the same blogs later retracted (see kerning), remained here undisputed with the lovely weasel words "some argue". This article was a factual embarassment of regurgitated blog spew.
As a side-note, I had been completely convinced these were fakes, because I read this article. I was just correcting the proportionally spaced claim, based on evidence recently provided by Mapes. Then I noticed most of the assertions in the "formatting" section weren't cited, so I checked them out. I'm curious how much better the typographical arguments regarding fonts stand up. At least those are cited to particular "experts".
Clearly, there's a problem with the credibility of these documents, given Burkett's deception. However, it would be nice if Wikipedia and the blogs it parroted had not stooped to the same embarassing level of non-verification as CBS did. That of course includes me, as an early editor of this article. Derex 18:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Derex, No one claims that proportional fonts of a limited kind were not available on typewriters in the 1970s. They certainly were. But proportional fonts of the kind used in the so-called Killian memos were not, according to experts in typewriter and computer typography. The question of proportional fonts, ignoring the specifics cited by these experts, is irrelevant to the question of authenticity. The statement concerning expert opinion which you deleted is necessary to avoid misleading the reader into believing that the authentic "proportionally-spaced" documents referenced are evidence contradicting the assertion that the proportional spacing in the Killian memos shows them to be forgeries. The authentic documents were clearly produced with contemporary typewriter technology, and bear little resemblence to the typography of the Killian memos. Undoubtedly any number of such documents could be found. None of them have any bearing on the assertion by experts that the Killian memos are forgeries. This needs to be made clear to the reader.
Derex, The authenticity issue with respect to proportional fonts is not whether typewriters with some (limited) kind of "proportional" spacing existed in 1972, but whether a machine existed at that time which had the technical sophistication necessary to produce the specific typography exhibited by the so-called Killian documents. It is the assertion of qualified experts in typewriter and computer typography that no such machine existed. The initial suggestion by (blogger) critics that no typewriters with any kind of proportional fonts existed in 1972 was quickly refuted. But detailed analysis by experts confirmed that the specific typography used in the memos was not available on typewriters in the 1970s. So the general suggestion that the proportional font used in the documents indicated they were forgeries was accurate.
The supposed expert who claimed that the fonts in the memo were possible was Bill Glennon, identified as a "technology consultant" but actually a former IBM typewriter serviceman. He originally posted his thoughts about the documents on a blog. Contacted by the New York Times he told them he had spent 15 minutes with the Killian memos and "believed" they could have been created using the kind of IBM typewriters he worked with. But he later told the Washington Post: "I'm not an expert, and I don't pretend to be." Phinney showed that Glennon was mistaken and that the typewriters he serviced could not have produced the documents. Phinney showed that the documents were not produced by either of the two specific typewriters that have been proposed as possibilities. Moreover, one of these machines (the IBM Selectric Composer) is the most sophisticated typewriter known. It was actually intended (and priced) for use in a low-end typesetting system. It is more reasonable to suppose that Killian had his memos typeset than that he used a mystery machine which was more technologically advanced that the IBM Selectric Composer and yet is unknown to typewriter experts.
The problems with this article are largely due to the fact that it was originally written early in the controversy, reflecting mostly opinions from partisan non-experts, and has not been properly revised based on subsequent typographic analysis by qualified experts. Appropriate revision has been prevented by the obstruction by ideologically-driven editors. You are quite right that there is little point in having a section on proportional fonts which simply discusses whether typewriters with a limited proportional spacing capability existed in 1972 (which is not now disputed), and provides samples of documents which, while exhibiting a limited kind of proportional spacing, do not resemble the Killain memos. This proves nothing with respect to the authenticity of the memos.
Derex, The Washington Post got it right. No known contemporary documents from the 147th Group or the Texas Air National Guard used the proportional spacing techniques characteristic of the CBS documents. The "proportionally-spaced" documents cited by Mapes bear no resemblance to the CBS documents. The experts you quoted here were generally correct, if "proportional font" as used by them is understood to mean the kind of font used in the CBS documents. And they were speaking informally; none of them claimed to have made the kind of serious expert analysis reported by Phinney, Tytell and Newcomer.
I don't object to including this stuff as a part of the evolution of the story, provided it is not used inproperly to suggest that there is serious doubt about the analysis of the experts in typewriter and computer typography who concluded that the documents are forgeries.
Derex, I just think you may be overinterpreting what was being said. The authentic documents that have been brought forward are not really proportionally-spaced in the sense that the so-called Killian memos are.
Derex, you wrote:
What experts do you think vouch for them?
Derex, You yourself have pointed out that the article is full of inaccuracies. I noted the retraction by Bill Glennon above. Have you read the CBS independent panel report concerning the experts supposedly cited by CBS? I do not believe that any qualified experts vouch for the authenticity of the documents.
Derex, I'm not interested in debating this with you. If you are intellectually honest and competent, and genuinely interested in the accuracy of the article, and willing to seriously examine the typographic issue, then I can trust you to make the appropriate edits. If you're not, then the exercise is pointless. Why would you want to quibble about this particular wording? If it's inaccurate, just rewrite it. But the crucial fact is that experts in typewriter and computer typography have concluded that the so-called Killian documents are almost certain forgeries, and their expert analysis has not contradicted by any similarly competent experts. The article should make this clear.
I'm curious, though, why you say "they almost surely weren't produced using Times New Roman on a stock MS Word program in a trivial fashion".
You can find the CBS panel report here: [3]
What unsupported claim do you think I want to make? The only fact I want clearly communicated is that experts in typewriter and computer typography have concluded that the so-called Killian documents are almost certainly forgeries, and their expert analysis has not been contradicted by any similarly competent experts. I'm not really so much concerned about the Wikipedia process, just the accuracy of the result.
Derex, Please don't take offense. But to be honest, I am doubtful that it will be possible to have a productive discussion with you about this. (As you may guess, I suspect lycanthropy.) I can try to explain why I believe your simplified wording significantly alters the intended meaning. I will do so if you're seriously interested in understanding the issue. But there's no point in my doing so if you just want to debate. That will only serve to frustrate the both of us.
I made some revisions. As noted in my edit summary, the Panel specifically did not take up the question of authenticity. Thus saying the Panel did not conclude they were forgeries is potentially misleading. Also, the intro stated something like "many experts consider them forgeriers or at least improperly authenticated." I don't think any experts actually consider the documents properly authenticated, and the absence of "originals" is one major reason. Significantly, zero of the four document examiners used by CBS could not authenticate the documents, and Matley was the only one who opined that the signature appeared authentic.
For a long time I have been of the opinion that the views of Knox and the Killian family, and possibly the authentic Killian memo praising Bush, ought not to be in the intro, but rather in a later subsection that addresses circumstantial evidence and views, but before making a change like that we should discuss. Last time it came up this proved to be a controversial view... Kaisershatner 18:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I just started reading through this and there seems to be a lot of people doing original research and blogging on this article. Somebody's added a lot of sentences where he or she is rebutting all the evidence of the forgeries based on his/her own research. Examples are "For an example of multiple centered lines produced using a proportionally spaced typewriter font, see the third page of the contemporary annual history of Bush's Alabama guard unit." and "However, for an example of curved apostrophes on documents produced by Bush's unit, see the 1973 "historical record"." These all go to copies of the documents, but they're not credible examinations by experts. They're the arguments made by the person who added these sentences. I read the Wikipedia standards for articles and it looks as if this isn't okay and that the articles should only state what outside sources have said about the memo authenticity or forgery arguments. Its called Original Research. So somebody please remove these problems. thanks - Antimetro
someone has tagged this article with "totally disputed" and with multiple section npov's. i see no notice or discussion of this at all here in talk. this is unacceptable, as without clearly stated reasons there can be no discussion as to the alleged problems. the only thing coming close here that i see is the "original research" comment above, which is quite simply mistaken.
so, whoever tagged it (or anyone else), what is the specific complaint leading to each of those tags? that way we can resolve the issues. otherwise, the tags need to come off. Derex 14:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I tried to verify Derex's statements to get rid of the accuracy tags, but something's wrong with the endnotes - none of the citations match up with the number in the text. Can anyone figure out what the problem is?
Why isn't this article at "Rathergate"? That term for the affair is much more common than anything else (google test, for example). Titling it "Killian Documents" when we're not even sure they were written by him is kinda weird too.
Daniel Quinlan 10:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I wasn't suggesting really that "Rathergate" was a great title (although it is definitely a clearer one), but the story of the article and the "scandal" or whatever you want to call it around CBS and Dan Rather's support for the story. There is already some coverage in other articles about the AWOL stuff. Perhaps "Killian Document Story" would be a better name for the article. Daniel Quinlan 20:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
If the impetus for the split is mostly because the article is too large, as seems to be the case reading the above, an effort should be undertaken to reduce the size of the article. The most obvious recent redundant increase in size resulted from the implementation of the {ref} template and the Notes subsection, that should be undone. There are likely other areas where size can be reduced. Conceptually, the controversy over the documents is the issue, though, given that there are two controversies a split could work if the sub article is specific to Killian documents authenticity controversy and this article would contain everything else (60 minutes, media controversy, politics) and it could perhaps then be renamed to something like Killian documents controversy or Killian documents 60 Minutes controversy (though maybe not). Just Killian documents could be a small disambig/synopsis page + the actual text/image of the documents. Though, the document authenticity controversy only started in response to and after the 60 Minutes segment aired, so the controversies are highly related and intertwined, the timeline would be lost in in any split. And in many historic cases within Wikipedia splitting an article has decreased abstract understanding of the subject, so I am infinitely wary. zen master T 20:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, both sides of the split need some work to make them viable. To start, I would change the title of the main article to "Rathergate" or "Killian documents scandal" or something - it's not about the Killian documents any more, it's about CBS and the Bloggers' responses to those documents. TheronJ 14:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I think most if not all citations should use the standard URL bracket method, citations should directly link to the source of the info and not go to another subsection within the article when not necessary. Why did someone go to the trouble of creating the Notes section and splatter the {ref} template all over the place? zen master T 22:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to leave a note here thanking all those who have contributed to this page. This has become a very thorough, balanced, and cool headed account of the situation. Well done. Arkon 05:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should have some talk page discussion before we go through too many more reversions on the "primary source" issue.
FWIW, I think the documents qualify as primary sources. (See also No Original Research for a discussion of primary vs. secondary sources.) Calling them "primary sources" doesn't mean that they're not a copy of another document, it just means that the documents themselves are historically relevant, rather than a commentary on historically relevant items or events. In other words, a link to scans of the Hitler diaries published in Stern or of the handwritten diaries presented to Ster would each qualify as a primary source, because those are the documents that the article is about. The fact that the handwritten diaries were fake, or that the Stern article was a typeset and edited copy of those diaries, doesn't change the fact that the documents themselves are historically significant to the topic, and therefore "primary." Commentary about the diaries, OTOH, would be "secondary." TheronJ 14:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps in a strictly analytical sense, a nuanced reading of a literal definition supports AF's view. However, I have read the above, the prior edits and the edit summaries and I agree that the anons have a point. Using the term "Primary Source" here, for this, has a propensity to mislead. A title of .pdf copies of CBS released Killian Documents would suffice.
For an example context where there could be a problematic use of "primary source" in discussing documents, see Zimmermann Telegram. The true primary source there was the intercepted, coded communications. The Mexico retrieved information was only ostensibly the primary source.
Along these lines of thinking, in the Killian instance, since no true primary source has ever been corroborated, I object to that term. There are many other turns of phrase we can use without raising a needless ruckus. Merecat 05:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Yikes. Rummaging through this article to read the cites is downright painful. If it is new policy to have them listed this way, consider me to be strongly against it. That aside, why are there 40 or so more footnotes listed than there are used in the article? In the next day or so I intend to begin cleaning the dead/random ones out. Objections? Arkon 04:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Several are "certain" that the documents are fraudulent.
I don't understand what value this adds to the article, and I'm not sure what "certain" is in quotes. It just strikes me as an odd remark altogther, and I'm highly inclined to just remove it. Anyone want to champion it? M00 09:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The best use of a link to an external source is so the reader can quickly open that link to verify the asserted fact. With this new system of pointing in-line links to footnotes, the reader gets confused. Will someone please explain why we are doing it this way? 70.85.195.227 20:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to say congratulations to all the editors who have worked on this article. It seems a fair and accurate account of the controversy, and I hope you all awarded each other barnstars for patience and civility. I personally think it was a good idea to split the analysis into a new article, and although I think Rathergate and Memogate should redirect here, the present title is the best (mostly because -gate is a trendy and overused neologism). Thatcher131 23:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Talk was 164k, time to archive again. For full disclosure, I would like to note that I was personally involved in many of the now-dead threads, some of which were quite contentious. Kaisershatner 14:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
This: "Tytell concluded that the documents were not produced on a typewriter in the early 1970s but were produced on a computer in a Times New Roman typestyle that would not have been available at that time."
is irrelevant and should not be listed under the "Panel's view" since the Panel clearly said they would not comment on whether the documents were fake or not. That is Tytell's view and that panel had the opportunity to accept it and they didn't. I think it should be either removed, or at the very least, moved.
After reading some of the comments below, there is obviously someone ediiting who takes the position that the documents wer proven to be false. That is not only wrong, that is dishonest.
Whoever this person is, they should be banned from editting this section.
-Rob S.
I ran across this analysis of the documents, which purports to prove that the documents were not products of microsoft word. The author, a Utah State University professor named David Hailey Jr, concludes that the documents were typed, but he doesn't make any claim as to their authenticity. I should add that this is a second edition of his study, posted to his website in December 2005. He claims to have evaluated Original documents (not faxed ones). Is any of this relevent to the discussion? Jarad 08:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
A user named "SpinyNorman" changed the opening sentence of this article from:
to:
claiming that he "removed some POV".
The fact that the so-called Killian documents were purportedly authentic, but were later identified by some experts as almost certain forgeries, is the central issue concerning this controversy. Stating that fact in the opening sentence of the article does not in any way violate NPOV. Suppressing it does.
Currently, the article says,
Are there any genuine experts who don't consider them to be forgeries?
It's been over a year; isn't it about time we recognized that this is a settled issue?
—wwoods
18:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
It depends, some may not have retracted the statements they made before. Mary Mapes says they are real. Even now she does not say they are fakes. It is a good read. After that you can reat the simple rant from talk.bizarre. Dominick (TALK) 21:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
No qualified expert has ever asserted that the documents are authentic. Uncontradicted analysis by experts in typerwriter and computer technology demonstrates clearly that they are forgeries. Mary Mapes is not an expert in anything but irresponsible journalism.
Yes, I do seriously want to make that claim. No qualified expert has ever asserted that the documents are authentic. If you seriously dispute this, you can easily disprove it by identifying one such expert. But in fact, no competent document examiner would assert that the documents are authentic without examining the originals, which are not available in this case. The independent panel created by CBS (a lawyer and a journalist) were not themselves qualified experts. They did not attempt to reach a definite conclusion regarding the authenticity of the documents. They did, however, cite the conclusion of a highly-qualified forensic document examiner who concluded that the documents are forgeries, and stated that they "found his analysis sound in terms of why he believed the documents were not authentic." There is, in fact, conclusive evidence (to a reasonable certainty) that the documents are forgeries. This is not merely the opinion of various individuals, it is a conclusion based on undisputed analysis by qualified experts.
--Rob S.
Rob, I never said that "No expert has said they are authentic, so they are fakes". I did say "No expert has said they are authentic", which is a fact. This refutes the claim that the authenticity of the documents is disputed among experts. I've also noted that "some experts have identified the documents as almost certain forgeries". It's the analysis by these experts which proves the documents are fakes. 71.212.31.95 17:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I did a little fact-checking last night. Almost every blog-based claim I checked regarding formatting, spacing, kerning, lingo, signature blocks, quotes, etc was easily disproved with the most rudimentary checking. Many of these were lifted verbatim from conservative blogs with absolutely no references. Further, even one claim which the same blogs later retracted (see kerning), remained here undisputed with the lovely weasel words "some argue". This article was a factual embarassment of regurgitated blog spew.
As a side-note, I had been completely convinced these were fakes, because I read this article. I was just correcting the proportionally spaced claim, based on evidence recently provided by Mapes. Then I noticed most of the assertions in the "formatting" section weren't cited, so I checked them out. I'm curious how much better the typographical arguments regarding fonts stand up. At least those are cited to particular "experts".
Clearly, there's a problem with the credibility of these documents, given Burkett's deception. However, it would be nice if Wikipedia and the blogs it parroted had not stooped to the same embarassing level of non-verification as CBS did. That of course includes me, as an early editor of this article. Derex 18:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Derex, No one claims that proportional fonts of a limited kind were not available on typewriters in the 1970s. They certainly were. But proportional fonts of the kind used in the so-called Killian memos were not, according to experts in typewriter and computer typography. The question of proportional fonts, ignoring the specifics cited by these experts, is irrelevant to the question of authenticity. The statement concerning expert opinion which you deleted is necessary to avoid misleading the reader into believing that the authentic "proportionally-spaced" documents referenced are evidence contradicting the assertion that the proportional spacing in the Killian memos shows them to be forgeries. The authentic documents were clearly produced with contemporary typewriter technology, and bear little resemblence to the typography of the Killian memos. Undoubtedly any number of such documents could be found. None of them have any bearing on the assertion by experts that the Killian memos are forgeries. This needs to be made clear to the reader.
Derex, The authenticity issue with respect to proportional fonts is not whether typewriters with some (limited) kind of "proportional" spacing existed in 1972, but whether a machine existed at that time which had the technical sophistication necessary to produce the specific typography exhibited by the so-called Killian documents. It is the assertion of qualified experts in typewriter and computer typography that no such machine existed. The initial suggestion by (blogger) critics that no typewriters with any kind of proportional fonts existed in 1972 was quickly refuted. But detailed analysis by experts confirmed that the specific typography used in the memos was not available on typewriters in the 1970s. So the general suggestion that the proportional font used in the documents indicated they were forgeries was accurate.
The supposed expert who claimed that the fonts in the memo were possible was Bill Glennon, identified as a "technology consultant" but actually a former IBM typewriter serviceman. He originally posted his thoughts about the documents on a blog. Contacted by the New York Times he told them he had spent 15 minutes with the Killian memos and "believed" they could have been created using the kind of IBM typewriters he worked with. But he later told the Washington Post: "I'm not an expert, and I don't pretend to be." Phinney showed that Glennon was mistaken and that the typewriters he serviced could not have produced the documents. Phinney showed that the documents were not produced by either of the two specific typewriters that have been proposed as possibilities. Moreover, one of these machines (the IBM Selectric Composer) is the most sophisticated typewriter known. It was actually intended (and priced) for use in a low-end typesetting system. It is more reasonable to suppose that Killian had his memos typeset than that he used a mystery machine which was more technologically advanced that the IBM Selectric Composer and yet is unknown to typewriter experts.
The problems with this article are largely due to the fact that it was originally written early in the controversy, reflecting mostly opinions from partisan non-experts, and has not been properly revised based on subsequent typographic analysis by qualified experts. Appropriate revision has been prevented by the obstruction by ideologically-driven editors. You are quite right that there is little point in having a section on proportional fonts which simply discusses whether typewriters with a limited proportional spacing capability existed in 1972 (which is not now disputed), and provides samples of documents which, while exhibiting a limited kind of proportional spacing, do not resemble the Killain memos. This proves nothing with respect to the authenticity of the memos.
Derex, The Washington Post got it right. No known contemporary documents from the 147th Group or the Texas Air National Guard used the proportional spacing techniques characteristic of the CBS documents. The "proportionally-spaced" documents cited by Mapes bear no resemblance to the CBS documents. The experts you quoted here were generally correct, if "proportional font" as used by them is understood to mean the kind of font used in the CBS documents. And they were speaking informally; none of them claimed to have made the kind of serious expert analysis reported by Phinney, Tytell and Newcomer.
I don't object to including this stuff as a part of the evolution of the story, provided it is not used inproperly to suggest that there is serious doubt about the analysis of the experts in typewriter and computer typography who concluded that the documents are forgeries.
Derex, I just think you may be overinterpreting what was being said. The authentic documents that have been brought forward are not really proportionally-spaced in the sense that the so-called Killian memos are.
Derex, you wrote:
What experts do you think vouch for them?
Derex, You yourself have pointed out that the article is full of inaccuracies. I noted the retraction by Bill Glennon above. Have you read the CBS independent panel report concerning the experts supposedly cited by CBS? I do not believe that any qualified experts vouch for the authenticity of the documents.
Derex, I'm not interested in debating this with you. If you are intellectually honest and competent, and genuinely interested in the accuracy of the article, and willing to seriously examine the typographic issue, then I can trust you to make the appropriate edits. If you're not, then the exercise is pointless. Why would you want to quibble about this particular wording? If it's inaccurate, just rewrite it. But the crucial fact is that experts in typewriter and computer typography have concluded that the so-called Killian documents are almost certain forgeries, and their expert analysis has not contradicted by any similarly competent experts. The article should make this clear.
I'm curious, though, why you say "they almost surely weren't produced using Times New Roman on a stock MS Word program in a trivial fashion".
You can find the CBS panel report here: [3]
What unsupported claim do you think I want to make? The only fact I want clearly communicated is that experts in typewriter and computer typography have concluded that the so-called Killian documents are almost certainly forgeries, and their expert analysis has not been contradicted by any similarly competent experts. I'm not really so much concerned about the Wikipedia process, just the accuracy of the result.
Derex, Please don't take offense. But to be honest, I am doubtful that it will be possible to have a productive discussion with you about this. (As you may guess, I suspect lycanthropy.) I can try to explain why I believe your simplified wording significantly alters the intended meaning. I will do so if you're seriously interested in understanding the issue. But there's no point in my doing so if you just want to debate. That will only serve to frustrate the both of us.
I made some revisions. As noted in my edit summary, the Panel specifically did not take up the question of authenticity. Thus saying the Panel did not conclude they were forgeries is potentially misleading. Also, the intro stated something like "many experts consider them forgeriers or at least improperly authenticated." I don't think any experts actually consider the documents properly authenticated, and the absence of "originals" is one major reason. Significantly, zero of the four document examiners used by CBS could not authenticate the documents, and Matley was the only one who opined that the signature appeared authentic.
For a long time I have been of the opinion that the views of Knox and the Killian family, and possibly the authentic Killian memo praising Bush, ought not to be in the intro, but rather in a later subsection that addresses circumstantial evidence and views, but before making a change like that we should discuss. Last time it came up this proved to be a controversial view... Kaisershatner 18:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I just started reading through this and there seems to be a lot of people doing original research and blogging on this article. Somebody's added a lot of sentences where he or she is rebutting all the evidence of the forgeries based on his/her own research. Examples are "For an example of multiple centered lines produced using a proportionally spaced typewriter font, see the third page of the contemporary annual history of Bush's Alabama guard unit." and "However, for an example of curved apostrophes on documents produced by Bush's unit, see the 1973 "historical record"." These all go to copies of the documents, but they're not credible examinations by experts. They're the arguments made by the person who added these sentences. I read the Wikipedia standards for articles and it looks as if this isn't okay and that the articles should only state what outside sources have said about the memo authenticity or forgery arguments. Its called Original Research. So somebody please remove these problems. thanks - Antimetro
someone has tagged this article with "totally disputed" and with multiple section npov's. i see no notice or discussion of this at all here in talk. this is unacceptable, as without clearly stated reasons there can be no discussion as to the alleged problems. the only thing coming close here that i see is the "original research" comment above, which is quite simply mistaken.
so, whoever tagged it (or anyone else), what is the specific complaint leading to each of those tags? that way we can resolve the issues. otherwise, the tags need to come off. Derex 14:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I tried to verify Derex's statements to get rid of the accuracy tags, but something's wrong with the endnotes - none of the citations match up with the number in the text. Can anyone figure out what the problem is?
Why isn't this article at "Rathergate"? That term for the affair is much more common than anything else (google test, for example). Titling it "Killian Documents" when we're not even sure they were written by him is kinda weird too.
Daniel Quinlan 10:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I wasn't suggesting really that "Rathergate" was a great title (although it is definitely a clearer one), but the story of the article and the "scandal" or whatever you want to call it around CBS and Dan Rather's support for the story. There is already some coverage in other articles about the AWOL stuff. Perhaps "Killian Document Story" would be a better name for the article. Daniel Quinlan 20:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
If the impetus for the split is mostly because the article is too large, as seems to be the case reading the above, an effort should be undertaken to reduce the size of the article. The most obvious recent redundant increase in size resulted from the implementation of the {ref} template and the Notes subsection, that should be undone. There are likely other areas where size can be reduced. Conceptually, the controversy over the documents is the issue, though, given that there are two controversies a split could work if the sub article is specific to Killian documents authenticity controversy and this article would contain everything else (60 minutes, media controversy, politics) and it could perhaps then be renamed to something like Killian documents controversy or Killian documents 60 Minutes controversy (though maybe not). Just Killian documents could be a small disambig/synopsis page + the actual text/image of the documents. Though, the document authenticity controversy only started in response to and after the 60 Minutes segment aired, so the controversies are highly related and intertwined, the timeline would be lost in in any split. And in many historic cases within Wikipedia splitting an article has decreased abstract understanding of the subject, so I am infinitely wary. zen master T 20:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, both sides of the split need some work to make them viable. To start, I would change the title of the main article to "Rathergate" or "Killian documents scandal" or something - it's not about the Killian documents any more, it's about CBS and the Bloggers' responses to those documents. TheronJ 14:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I think most if not all citations should use the standard URL bracket method, citations should directly link to the source of the info and not go to another subsection within the article when not necessary. Why did someone go to the trouble of creating the Notes section and splatter the {ref} template all over the place? zen master T 22:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to leave a note here thanking all those who have contributed to this page. This has become a very thorough, balanced, and cool headed account of the situation. Well done. Arkon 05:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should have some talk page discussion before we go through too many more reversions on the "primary source" issue.
FWIW, I think the documents qualify as primary sources. (See also No Original Research for a discussion of primary vs. secondary sources.) Calling them "primary sources" doesn't mean that they're not a copy of another document, it just means that the documents themselves are historically relevant, rather than a commentary on historically relevant items or events. In other words, a link to scans of the Hitler diaries published in Stern or of the handwritten diaries presented to Ster would each qualify as a primary source, because those are the documents that the article is about. The fact that the handwritten diaries were fake, or that the Stern article was a typeset and edited copy of those diaries, doesn't change the fact that the documents themselves are historically significant to the topic, and therefore "primary." Commentary about the diaries, OTOH, would be "secondary." TheronJ 14:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps in a strictly analytical sense, a nuanced reading of a literal definition supports AF's view. However, I have read the above, the prior edits and the edit summaries and I agree that the anons have a point. Using the term "Primary Source" here, for this, has a propensity to mislead. A title of .pdf copies of CBS released Killian Documents would suffice.
For an example context where there could be a problematic use of "primary source" in discussing documents, see Zimmermann Telegram. The true primary source there was the intercepted, coded communications. The Mexico retrieved information was only ostensibly the primary source.
Along these lines of thinking, in the Killian instance, since no true primary source has ever been corroborated, I object to that term. There are many other turns of phrase we can use without raising a needless ruckus. Merecat 05:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Yikes. Rummaging through this article to read the cites is downright painful. If it is new policy to have them listed this way, consider me to be strongly against it. That aside, why are there 40 or so more footnotes listed than there are used in the article? In the next day or so I intend to begin cleaning the dead/random ones out. Objections? Arkon 04:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Several are "certain" that the documents are fraudulent.
I don't understand what value this adds to the article, and I'm not sure what "certain" is in quotes. It just strikes me as an odd remark altogther, and I'm highly inclined to just remove it. Anyone want to champion it? M00 09:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The best use of a link to an external source is so the reader can quickly open that link to verify the asserted fact. With this new system of pointing in-line links to footnotes, the reader gets confused. Will someone please explain why we are doing it this way? 70.85.195.227 20:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to say congratulations to all the editors who have worked on this article. It seems a fair and accurate account of the controversy, and I hope you all awarded each other barnstars for patience and civility. I personally think it was a good idea to split the analysis into a new article, and although I think Rathergate and Memogate should redirect here, the present title is the best (mostly because -gate is a trendy and overused neologism). Thatcher131 23:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)