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I moved this text from the article. To me it seems more appropriate to put under George W. Bush military service controversy. This article is about the documents themselves, including their presentation, provenance, content, portrayal, and consequences, not about what other evidence may or may not exist to corroborate their allegations. (Such as testimony from people who think the content of the documents is true regardless of their validity). I think this may also reduce the article size below 60k. (Kaisershatner)
Here's the text-
Brigadier General David L. McGinnis (ret'd), who once worked for an assistant Secretary of Defense, said that the documents proved that Bush did not complete his national service commitments, even if the records showed that he had been paid during this time. Lawrence Korb said that a truthful evaluation by Killian would have resulted in Bush's being drafted for active duty in Vietnam. The two men made these statements immediately following the CBS broadcast, apparently on the assumption that the documents were genuine. Aside from the documents newly publicized by CBS, however, Korb, who was an Assistant Secretary of Defense during the administration of Ronald Reagan, had already concluded, based on undisputed records, that Bush did not fulfill his Guard obligations and could have been ordered to active duty as a result. [1]
Marian Carr Knox, Colonel Killian's secretary at the time, has denied typing the memos, but insists they reflect the truth about Lieutenant Bush.
Sorry, actually not trying to create controversy. My edits did the following: (1) concisely summarized the entire affair in several sentences in the opening paragraph, including the factual summary of what the documents were and why they are worthy of an article (2) created a chronological history of the story, which was absent from the previous version and made it difficult to follow (3) reduced the emphasis on the Rove conspiracy theory, which as noted has never been substantiated by any evidence, and (4) moved up the gif showing the 2004 MS Word document, which in a single picture elegantly summarizes the long list of textual criticism of the memos, which I left undisturbed further down the article. Finally (5) my sections illustrated the movement of CBS on its own story, from releasing the story to defending it to admitting there were problems to the results of their own internal investigation. Now can we take a sober look at it before reverting away from it?
Kaisershatner 20:31, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Killian documents are controversial documents that were publicized during the 2004 US presidential campaign. The memos were purportedly written by the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian and on September 8, 2004 they were presented as authentic in a 60 Minutes II story on CBS criticizing President George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard (TexANG) during the Vietnam War. Near-immediate questioning of the validity of the documents on internet forums and weblogs, intially focusing on the typographical characteristics of the memos, spread to the mainstream media and eventually led to an internal investigation by CBS. The investigation concluded the segment had made false assertions about the provenance and authenticity of the documents, and listed a series of other serious criticism of CBS's report and its handling of the aftermath. Mary Mapes, the segment's producer, was fired, and after CBS apologized to viewers it demanded the resignation of several senior executives. The affair, sometimes referred to as Rathergate, damaged the reputation of CBS News and Dan Rather while bringing considerable attention to the blogging phenomenon. A related controversy exists over whether the allegations in the disputed documents are actually true (see: George W. Bush military service controversy
Here's how it looked before me: The Killian documents are controversial documents that were in the news during the 2004 US presidential campaign. The memos were purportedly written by the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian and were presented as authentic in a 60 Minutes story criticizing President George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard (TexANG) during the Vietnam War. After questions over the authenticity of the documents arose, initially on political blogs and then in the traditional news media, CBS ordered an independent investigation. The blue-ribbon panel reported it "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion as to the authenticity of the Killian documents," but found that CBS News had badly mishandled the story.(pdf) ( http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf) A large majority of document experts consider the documents to be fake. The affair, sometimes referred to as Rathergate, has damaged the reputation of CBS News and Dan Rather while bringing considerable attention to the blogging phenomenon.
Some defenders of Dan Rather and CBS, including a member of Congress, have alleged that Republicans, possibly Karl Rove and/or Roger Stone, preempted potential controversy regarding President Bush's service record in the Texas Air National Guard by supplying the false Killian documents used in the 60 Minutes report - so as to discredit a potentially legitimate source of criticism. Some Republicans dismiss that allegation as being groundless and suggest that an opponent of Bush, possibly Bill Burkett who admits to bringing the documents to CBS, falsified the documents. The origin of the documents prior to Bill Burkett and CBS, as well as the provenance of their actual form (photocopies), is not substantiated and is disputed.''
James, your version is pretty good, definitely concise. Note: the congressman's allegation was added to the intro section after someone removed all mention of the counter allegations from the intro, they claimed there were no notable supporters or defenders of CBS or Dan Rather. They may have also been claiming it was a "conspiracy theory" which is turning into a broken record on wikipedia. zen master T 21:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Killian documents are controversial documents that were in the news during the 2004 US presidential campaign. The memos were purportedly written by the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian and were presented as authentic in a 60 Minutes story criticizing President George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard (TexANG) during the Vietnam War. (No mention of when they were presented, unlike my version) After questions over the authenticity of the documents arose, initially on political blogs and then in the traditional news media, CBS ordered an independent investigation. The blue-ribbon panel (what is a blue ribbon panel?) reported it "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion as to the authenticity of the Killian documents," (misleading as the commission was not tasked with validating the documents, and also omits the point that the expert consulted by the panel thought the documents were forged, which is mentioned in the report section of this article) but found that CBS News had badly mishandled the story.(pdf) ( http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf) A large majority of document experts consider the documents to be fake. The affair, sometimes referred to as Rathergate, has damaged the reputation of CBS News and Dan Rather while bringing considerable attention to the blogging phenomenon.
This was inserted by me, to put it above the (unsubstantiated allegations in the) para that follows: Critics of CBS and Dan Rather suggested that CBS's decision to air the story reflected an attempt to influence the United States Presidential Election of 2004. Mary Mapes, the producer of the piece, was faulted for not appearing objective by calling Joe Lockhart, a senior official in the John Kerry campaign prior to the airing of the piece and offering to put him in touch with the source of the documents.
Some defenders of Dan Rather and CBS have alleged that Republicans, possibly Karl Rove and/or Roger Stone, preempted the controversy over President Bush's service record in the Texas Air National Guard by creating and supplying the questionable Killian documents used in the 60 Minutes report in order to misdirect from a potentially legitimate source of criticism. (This has never been substantiated by any EVIDENCE) Some Republicans dismiss that allegation and claim an opponent of Bush, possibly Bill Burkett who admits to bringing the documents to CBS, falsified the documents. The origin of the documents prior to Bill Burkett and CBS is disputed.
This part is awkward: I summarize this sentence more concisely be saying "a related controversy is...see also:" A related controversy exists over whether or not the allegations contained in the questionable documents are actually true. Democrats generally have focused on the allegations of criticism of Bush's Vietnam era National Guard service while Republicans have focused on the questions regarding the authenticity of the documents themselves.
Kaiser, you aren't actually debating or defending the changes you are proposing? We spent weeks here coming up with the version that is currently in use. You are going to have to point by point, on the talk page, explain why your version is better? Redundantly pasting your version into the talk page doesn't count as debate. I believe your version is worse and borderline POV vandalism. zen master T 01:27, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaisershatner 22:41, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaisershatner 22:51, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How am I avoiding the issue exactly? You are removing information. I stated support for just removing only "possible Karl Rove and/or Roger Stone" from the intro, nothing else from "my" (consensus) version should be removed. How does that support the massive changes you keep trying to make. zen master T 01:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(1) please identify what information you allege that I am removing. (2) please explain why you object to my changing the following:
(3) you do not own this article (4) you have repeatedly reverted my edits without justification other than a claim that I am making "massive changes." 68.173.44.81 22:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) Kaisershatner 22:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) So what's the deal, are you trolling or do you want to debate this?
Zen, Kaisershatner made massive changes because the article needs them. Please stop making reverts you can't justify. This is an article about the Killian documents. Mapes produced the CBS story that presented them as authentic. Rove and Stone have no known connection with them. Why is it inconsistent to mention Mapes but not Rove and Stone in the intro? Anonip 00:06, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaistershatner has pointed out a number of serious issues with the opening paragraph, including the most salient, that it is more of a whitewash than even CBS produced. Jayjg (talk) 02:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hey, who removed the animated gif? It was very informative, a picture is worth a thousand words of blather. Were someone's delicate aesthetic sensibilities offended or what?
I put this back in, I think the removal was inadvertent. Kaisershatner 19:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen-master, I see you've changed the location of the pic I uploaded. I prefer it the other way, and if you review [ [5]], and look at the pages for the Declaration of Independance, the US Constitution, Federalist Papers, the 9/11 Commission report, the majority is consistent with the style I had introduced. If you don't mind too much, would you change it back? Kaisershatner 17:35, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, I checked the version history, and my last version had the image too large; I just changed it to what I had intended (a smaller size offset), which was what I meant to do originally. I think I had a browser problem or something. I don't think this version has the problem of cutting off the text, which the other version did (inadvertently!). When I checked the history I saw why you objected. I'm afraid this whole problem was my error. Sorry. Kaisershatner 19:47, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, I see that you have resumed editing as well, and I'm hopeful we can cooperate. So far, you've changed some things I put in, but I understand why and I think they are reasonable. I may try to copyedit a bit (you use "Bush" three times in the last sentence of the first para).
Going forward, I'm hoping to re-establish the timeline of the story (1) broadcast (2) blogs (3) mainstream media reaction (4) defense by CBS, and (5) repudiation of memos by CBS and independent panel. I will do so without removing information, and with special sensitivity to the allegations of the left, so as not to appear other than NPOV. Sincerely, Kaisershatner 19:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re: Timeline, I meant in the body of the article, not the intro. Stay tuned. Also, in the article under "initial skepticism" the rapid response and technical nature of the Buckhead reply is noted to have "fueled speculation on the political left that the entire document controversy was a right-wing conspiracy." That is a factual summary of those events that doesn't take a position on the merit of this viewpoint either way (neutral point of view). Kaisershatner 14:35, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is neutrality still disputed? It isn't by me; while I think the article still needs serious editing for factual incompleteness, it isn't horribly NPOV right now from where I'm standing. Anyone from the left want to weigh in on this? Kaisershatner 16:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the NPOV of ths article remains disputed. Anonip 21:42, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought this article is about 1) whether the memos are accurate 2) the actions of Dan Rather and CBS News. Too bad Dan Rather is hardly mentioned in the article. Did he or did he not play an important row in this controversy? Why put the "Explanatory Theories" in the second section? People have the right to know the facts before they are fed with conspiracy theories. I think the article should be structured as such:
- Anon IP
The "evidence the documents reflected the truth" doesn't belong here. It belongs in George W. Bush military service controversy. Anonip 00:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe Zen-master is including the "Explanatory Theories" because he is worried that this article will be used to defend Bush's military record. I propose that we take our attention away from Bush, and refocus on the memos and CBS. By doing this, we steer away from the Bush controversy, and focus on the memo controversy. There is no reason why fake memos can be used to validate/invalidate Bush's military record.
This article has become so long winded and irrelavent...
One more thing...Zen, corroborating evidence that the allegations "might be true" DOES NOT NULLIFY THIS CONTROVERSY as you have repeatedly stated. Even if Bush was actually AWOL, that wouldn't justify CBS using forged documents to "prove" that, would it? Kaisershatner 00:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaisershatner, I assume you are the author. I like the article the way it was a few months ago much better, concise and to the point. Can we revert back, and give a PROMINENT section at the end for "explanatory theories?"
In summary, you continue to introduce statements that suggest the documents are somehow legitimate because of the possible truth of their allegations, when no-one editing this article is seriously disputing that possibility, you continue to resist attempts to make the article about the Killian Documents primarily reflect the nature of the forgery and the history of CBS self-described poor judgement in publizicing them, you continue to give the circumstantial evidence that the content of the faked memos might be legitimate equal weight with the objective evidence that they were forged and that CBS denied and ignored this for almost two weeks, and finally, as Anonip has repeatedly pointed out, there is very little that can be done about this. I'm less familiar with the process than Anonip, so I have a small hope that maybe some kind of arbitration is possible, but basically, I agree with Anonip that logic will not convince you. Logic cannot convince you that this article should be about the Killian documents and not about Bush's service record, and that's the main point of contention, and logic cannot convince you that the totally unsubstantiated allegations that "originals" of these memos exist should not be given any serious weight. Kaisershatner 18:47, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
To the previous poster who asked if I am "the author," I don't know what you mean; if you check the article history you can see where I came into this, and prior to my involvement, the opening paragraph attributed the story to Karl Rove, and didn't mention Mapes or CBS's "minor" hand in bringing these docs to public attention. So I'm not sure it was really a better article before I tried to drive it back toward reality. Kaisershatner 18:47, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NOUN: Something alleged; an assertion: allegations of disloyalty. The act of alleging. A statement asserting something without proof: The newspaper's charges of official wrongdoing were mere allegations. Law An assertion made by a party that must be proved or supported with evidence.
Marion Carr Knox's statement that the documents "may have been copied from originals" is an assertion that is unsupported by EVIDENCE, ie original documents of some kind.
Please indicate that there is "supporting evidence" that the documents were copied. Ideally you could support this with an external reference, ie some kind of neutral or mainstream source who supports your contention that there is "supporting evidence."
And again, you claim "the contents...are very relevant," and again, I state: the contents are already a part of the article and do not justify your edits. You are not editing to introduce the contents of the documents, which are already in there, but to change the focus of the article away from the forged docs and CBS' conduct, as well as inserting unsupported statements like the above regarding "evidence."
Kaisershatner 11:50, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, when you write "recreated from originals" I assume you mean someone created documents that were not authentic but would appear to be authentic. Isn't that the definition of forgery? Kaisershatner 14:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As part of a larger edit, Kaisershatner inserted the following sentence:
There are two problems with this, in my opinion:
I have removed that sentence for reconsideration. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 16:28, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, since you insist on reprinting that there is "corroborating evidence," but won't list it, I have listed it for you. If there is other such evidence that you think should be cited, please feel free to cite it. Kaisershatner 21:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In answer to Kaisershatner's question, I followed the affair and was well aware of the secretary's corroboration from memory of Killian's opinion of the young Bush. It's a weak corroboration, given the fallibility of human memory, but significant nonetheless. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
On another note, I think the breakthrough Zen-master and I had is that we probably will never agree on what constitutes "corroborating evidence," but we can certainly agree that Knox said the things she said. Let's all keep working on introducing the facts. Kaisershatner 16:04, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The documents are fakes. They're not valid evidence. The secretary's statements can't strengthen or support them. Her statements actually corroborate the fact that the documents are fakes (see the quotes I included above). To the extent that her statements are direct evidence concerning the allegations about Bush's TANG service, they should be included in the article on that subject, ( George W. Bush military service controversy). Anonip 01:06, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's true, documents can be real or fake. These are fake. And yes, the contents can be real or fake. The contents of these are fake. The secretary's statement corroborates this. Whether the allegations supposedly supported by the fake contents of these fake document happen to be true or not has no significance whatsoever. Anonip 04:05, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's rather too much weasely speculation of the "some say", "some think" kind in this article, in my opinion. We know the blogs and whatnot are full of silly conspiracy theories on either side--statements from blogs that have had a significant effect should be reported, but idle statements that amount to no more than speculations have no place in this article except where we report on who voiced them and what effect this had.
Hard facts are sometimes missed, too. It should be in the lead that the White House initially accepted the documents as authentic (presumably trusting the journalists to get things right) and this was taken by NBCCBS as confirmation of their authenticity, which at that time had not been sufficiently determined. Armed with the confidence that White House communications director Dan Bartlett wasn't challenging authenticity, NBCCBS made a bad call and went to air with it story, shorn of a section where Rather interviewed a handwriting expert. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 17:08, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NBC? Wasn't it CBS? Anonip 18:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, thanks. Apologies for the confusion. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Creating a section to address this, since Zen has made changes but doesn't reply to my concerns listed above. To reiterate, I have repeatedly asked that the "corroborating evidence" he alleges exists be indicated. Since the Carr testimony in my OPINION is not corroborating evidence, but in Zen's view IS evidence, I suggested a compromise - rather than a subjective claim that there is evidence, let's print the OBJECTIVE facts: that Knox thought the docs were forged but that they reflected in her opinion, Killian's view of Bush. That would appear to resolve that dispute, wouldn't it? Kaisershatner 21:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I retract my objection to this small point, and again, I'm hopeful that by sticking to the undisputed facts we can put together an article. Kaisershatner 21:09, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, I think the phrase, "also known as Rathergate", is accurate and appropriate. It simply informs the reader that the controversy is known by this name. What's your objection to it?
The phrase I'm suggesting is "known as" rather than "called". It simply informs the reader that the controversy is known by this name. It avoids the need to characterize usage. And while I recognize your POV that it refers to what you believe is "just the surface level" of the controversy, that is what the mainstream media reporting and the CBS investigation focused on, and what the general public is aware of. Anonip 06:18, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Democrats believe the fact the controversy is called Rathergate is actually evidence of a Republican preemptively engineered plan." Should we include this statement? Anonip 18:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sure we do, the 2003 invasion of Iraq article specifically says "refered to by proponents as the 'Liberation of Iraq'". Though I am ok with a brief mention at the very top of the article on memogate and rathergate as long as we leave in in the intro the sentence about Rathergate's usage being primarily by critics of Rather (not common). If that is all you guys wanted I apologize (I thought you were saying we should remove any mention of the fact that critics of dan rather and conservative media outlets are primarily the ones that use Rathergate). zen master T 21:02, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed the section: (1) the documents' supporters and detractors are documented in the body of the article, along with their political leaning, (2) the validity of the documents is a separate question from what partisans on either side thought, which in any case is already addressed in the body, (3) the Pajamahadeen section is already in the body, (4) the Thornburg/Boccardi info is already in the body. Kaisershatner 15:27, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
One common thread to the debate over the documents' authenticity lies in the partisanship of the debate participants. Most obviously, there is the fact that the most influential bloggers currently supporting the claim of authenticity are well-known for holding liberal views [9] [10], while the earliest and most influential bloggers to question their authenticity such as Little Green Footballs [11] [12], Power Line (blog) [13], and Jim Geraghty at National Review Online [14] [15] generally holding conservative views. The conservative bloggers even began to refer to themselves collectively by a self-deprecating name, the Pajamahadeen, in reference to comments made by a CBS executives. Those bloggers viewed this affair as confirmation of a " liberal bias" at CBS News, particularly because CBS went ahead with the report even after doubts were raised by some of their own document experts. The Thornburgh/Boccardi Report, however, concluded that an eagerness to land the story was at fault rather than a liberal bias, while acknowledging that Mapes' contacting the Kerry camp was "a clear conflict of interest."
Here's another proposal: Move the all of the typographical and other authenticity issues to a subpage, linked from the first paragraph via something like "a detailed analysis of the typographical and other authenticity issues is HERE," making the article under 70k, and allowing the addition of some pictures. My thinking is that the average reader isn't interested in the microdetails of typesetting and font widths, etc., especially since at this stage, the fact that the documents were forged isn't disputed much at all (in my research on this article I found that even DNC Chair Terry McAuliffe calls them forgeries). Since all of the typographical & content issues are still quite important, I thought maybe giving them their own page would be possible. I may try to make a trial subpage if I can figure out how to do that, to provide an example, but do you guys think this is a horrible idea? Kaisershatner 16:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC) Check this out: [ [16]
I posted comments at Zen-master and JamesMLane's pages requesting their input on this suggestion. 207.122.19.254 16:48, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I wish to add some more issues to the fact that these documents are forgeries.
1. The word-wrapping is reproducable by Microsoft Word, but ONLY in Word 2000 and later. It is NOT reproducable in Word 97 or earlier versions. The default breaks occur at different points. This would indicate that the forger used a fairly new version of the software available to do the job. My source is that I performed tests on multiple versions of Word myself, but you are welcome to verify this independantly.
2. ALL military documents since WWI use the same kind of folders for storage. (My wife was working for a company copying information out of such folders recently, and pointed this out). All such folders have the two pronged fold over metal holder, and as such use a two hole punch in the top of the page. Most of the time, such punches go thru headers. None of these documents displayed these holes, or even photocopies of these holes.
3. You missed the other cute stupidity the forger left in. The memo ordered George Bush to report for a physical on Mother's day, when the entire base was closed.
Mycroft 7 Jan 2005
I added statements and links by Mrs. Carr before the 60 mins interview, along with the source here. [17]-bro 172.133.83.48 30 June 2005 08:18 (UTC)
The article exhaustively analyzes the authenticity and motivation re the forgery but does not discuss at all any evidence re the document's sources. This should at least be mentioned, as far as either stating no one has yet been prosecuted and the obvious suspects have not been charged.
Any attempt to whitewash the scandal and say it wasn't a scandal is an example of POV. A Google search of Killian Documents Scandal yields 16,000 results. A scandal is a scandal is a scandal. Sadly POV continues to rear its ugly head here.-- Agiantman 04:54, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
All scandals are controversies. Not all controversies are scandals. The 6.6% difference you found shows that only 6.6% of writers do not identify the killian documents scandal as a scandal. They see it as a mere controversy. The rest, 93.4%, identify it as a scandal. Thank you very much. Case closed.-- Agiantman 22:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Referring to these "documents" as documents adds a false patina of legitimacy. The heraldy, provenance and genesis of the source papers from which these images of faxed photocopies were (we've been told) created, has never been established. Rather, what has been established by the preponderance of the evidence is that these so-called "documents" are forgeries. When one forges paper money, one ends up with a piece of paper, but that paper is NOT money. Likewise, when one forges documents, one ends up with papers, but those papers are NOT documents. By calling them anything other than purported or so-called, we are framing the debate as if the papers have been established to be genuine. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 04:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Rex has deleted substantial information with the stated rationale that the deletion is "to bring closer POV balance in text amounts to opposing theories". This is improper. To the extent that there is any imbalance, the appropriate course of action is explained in Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Space and balance: "The remedy is to add to the article—not to subtract from it." JamesMLane 06:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
We could always insert, verbatim, the Lucy Ramirez article (as it now stands) into Killian documents if that helps you out. As for "crackpot", it's a lot easier to toss around unverfied (and unverifiable) allegations - which is what the "Rove did it" "Republicans did it" claims are. Frankly, I don't believe that you are being on the level when you insist on a 3-1 or 5-1 ratio of shrill, crackpot charges. As to what people believe, well I suppose if enough people keep lying to them on this topic, they just might come to believe that "Rove did it". Of course, if that were even remotely true, Dan Rather would still have his job. So I suppose the Brass at CBS doesn't believe the way you surmise "Hinchey and McAuliffe" has supposedly been able to lead a "significant minority" to believe. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Kevin, I don't agree with that logic at all. If I go around saying "Volkswagon is responsible for the death of President Kennedy", "Volkswagon is responsible for the death of Will Rogers", " Volkswagon is responsible for the the death of Fatty Arbuckle", simply if I am able to get those allegations published in the press, does not mean they ought to also get into a wiki article. Suffice it to say, by including so many far out allegations, the article borders on the absurd. There is no and has been no bona-fide inquiries which returned as a bona-fide result, information indicating anything other than these "documents" being fed into the food chain via anti-Bush partisans. It's patently silly for us to give more ink to absurd conjectures under a section called "explanatory theories", that we give to the single theory from the R side which is "liberal bias" (in this instance, aka anti-Bush partisans).
Even so, if you are now saying that you want me to flesh out in the explanatory theories section various contentions against Mapes, Burkett, Rather, Rather's daughter, Travis County Democrats, etc, with an approximately equal number of words that the crackpot theories are getting, then if you insist on jamming more finger pointing in the article, well so be it.
And please take note, one of my main objections to the "crackpot" theories is the volume of them being included, diminishes the scholarly value of the article. Instead of it being a reasoned conveyence of the most probable facts, it becomes a hodge-podge of sillyness - surpassing some of the "black helicopter" crowd for crackpot-ness. At least that's how I feel. Suffice it to say, by leaving the wacko claims in, we reduce the reception level of the readers from being willing to say to themselves "hmmm, looks like there was a bona-fide scandal here" to "all the politicians do is point fingers - bah". And it's the latter of the two results which helps wrongly downplay this whole sordid affair. Of course, the less credible any reports on this topic becomes, the more it keeps egg off the face of the anti-Bush partisans who are the actual culprits. And frankly, that's an editorial tack that I oppose. I oppose the inclusion of excess "crackpot" allegations on the grounds that including them undercuts the legitimacy of the entire article - by making it seem absurd.
Personally, I think a single para, for each "side" in that section is enough. However, I'm gonna pledge flexibility here - as Alan King once said to Ali McGraw in a movie, "just tell me what you want". And since it appears, you are telling me you want copious amounts of finger pointing (crackpot or not) embedded into the article - in the explanatory theories section - then that's what we shall have. Or am I reading you wrong? Rex071404 216.153.214.94 18:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
This seems to be a moot point, since I don't think Rex is disputing their inclusion at this point. W/R/T the Lucy Ramirez page, I think it's a fine idea, for the same reason. Maybe it's a crackpot theory, maybe not, but it's not for me to decide - let the reader draw their own conclusions from the objective facts. A person reading this article should be able to draw a line from these objectively provable occurrences:
If after all that a reader still decides the "Rove must have done it" view is more credible than the "Rather ignored his own experts in order to make Bush look bad" view, then they are free to draw that conclusion. Was it Daniel Patrick Moynihan who said, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts?" So let's concentrate on making the article objective and label speculation as speculation, okay? Kaisershatner 01:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Can be found here: Lucy Ramirez. Please do not delete this wiki link. Thank you. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 07:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Karl Rove is only mentioned once in the article, re Hinchey's allegations, and then his name is not even hyperlinked!!!! Truly amazing. This really smacks of an active Repugnican sanitizing effort on this article.
He's not mentioned more because other than listing the allegations against him, there has never been any evidence of his involvement (see: tu quoque). Kaisershatner 16:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
"The circumstantial evidence cited by supporters of this theory includes:
I could see some people thinking the latter two are circumstantial evidence of something if they really wanted to believe it - but nothing connecting it to Rove - and the first one, even if granted as unimpeachably valid, just points out Rove has supposedly done bad things before, but again doesn't actually tie him to this. "Rove did dirty tricks before. This is a dirty trick. Therefore Rove might be involved?" Is there some different definition of circumstantial evidence we're using? Kaisershatner 14:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
The article now reads:
The caveat here is idiotic. Even if one of these typewriters could have been manipulated in this way in the 1970s in order to approximate the features of a later personal computer, what possible motivation was there to do so? This simply illustrates the lengths to which some Wikipedia editors will go in denying reality to maintain their partisan POV.
The documents have been shown by experts to be forgeries, beyond any reasonable doubt. The article's failure to report this is clearly the result of partisan bias to the point of irrationality. This issue is a simple litmus test for left-wing lunatics. No one who denies that the documents have been shown by experts to be forgeries can have their views taken seriously on any subject.
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I moved this text from the article. To me it seems more appropriate to put under George W. Bush military service controversy. This article is about the documents themselves, including their presentation, provenance, content, portrayal, and consequences, not about what other evidence may or may not exist to corroborate their allegations. (Such as testimony from people who think the content of the documents is true regardless of their validity). I think this may also reduce the article size below 60k. (Kaisershatner)
Here's the text-
Brigadier General David L. McGinnis (ret'd), who once worked for an assistant Secretary of Defense, said that the documents proved that Bush did not complete his national service commitments, even if the records showed that he had been paid during this time. Lawrence Korb said that a truthful evaluation by Killian would have resulted in Bush's being drafted for active duty in Vietnam. The two men made these statements immediately following the CBS broadcast, apparently on the assumption that the documents were genuine. Aside from the documents newly publicized by CBS, however, Korb, who was an Assistant Secretary of Defense during the administration of Ronald Reagan, had already concluded, based on undisputed records, that Bush did not fulfill his Guard obligations and could have been ordered to active duty as a result. [1]
Marian Carr Knox, Colonel Killian's secretary at the time, has denied typing the memos, but insists they reflect the truth about Lieutenant Bush.
Sorry, actually not trying to create controversy. My edits did the following: (1) concisely summarized the entire affair in several sentences in the opening paragraph, including the factual summary of what the documents were and why they are worthy of an article (2) created a chronological history of the story, which was absent from the previous version and made it difficult to follow (3) reduced the emphasis on the Rove conspiracy theory, which as noted has never been substantiated by any evidence, and (4) moved up the gif showing the 2004 MS Word document, which in a single picture elegantly summarizes the long list of textual criticism of the memos, which I left undisturbed further down the article. Finally (5) my sections illustrated the movement of CBS on its own story, from releasing the story to defending it to admitting there were problems to the results of their own internal investigation. Now can we take a sober look at it before reverting away from it?
Kaisershatner 20:31, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Killian documents are controversial documents that were publicized during the 2004 US presidential campaign. The memos were purportedly written by the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian and on September 8, 2004 they were presented as authentic in a 60 Minutes II story on CBS criticizing President George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard (TexANG) during the Vietnam War. Near-immediate questioning of the validity of the documents on internet forums and weblogs, intially focusing on the typographical characteristics of the memos, spread to the mainstream media and eventually led to an internal investigation by CBS. The investigation concluded the segment had made false assertions about the provenance and authenticity of the documents, and listed a series of other serious criticism of CBS's report and its handling of the aftermath. Mary Mapes, the segment's producer, was fired, and after CBS apologized to viewers it demanded the resignation of several senior executives. The affair, sometimes referred to as Rathergate, damaged the reputation of CBS News and Dan Rather while bringing considerable attention to the blogging phenomenon. A related controversy exists over whether the allegations in the disputed documents are actually true (see: George W. Bush military service controversy
Here's how it looked before me: The Killian documents are controversial documents that were in the news during the 2004 US presidential campaign. The memos were purportedly written by the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian and were presented as authentic in a 60 Minutes story criticizing President George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard (TexANG) during the Vietnam War. After questions over the authenticity of the documents arose, initially on political blogs and then in the traditional news media, CBS ordered an independent investigation. The blue-ribbon panel reported it "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion as to the authenticity of the Killian documents," but found that CBS News had badly mishandled the story.(pdf) ( http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf) A large majority of document experts consider the documents to be fake. The affair, sometimes referred to as Rathergate, has damaged the reputation of CBS News and Dan Rather while bringing considerable attention to the blogging phenomenon.
Some defenders of Dan Rather and CBS, including a member of Congress, have alleged that Republicans, possibly Karl Rove and/or Roger Stone, preempted potential controversy regarding President Bush's service record in the Texas Air National Guard by supplying the false Killian documents used in the 60 Minutes report - so as to discredit a potentially legitimate source of criticism. Some Republicans dismiss that allegation as being groundless and suggest that an opponent of Bush, possibly Bill Burkett who admits to bringing the documents to CBS, falsified the documents. The origin of the documents prior to Bill Burkett and CBS, as well as the provenance of their actual form (photocopies), is not substantiated and is disputed.''
James, your version is pretty good, definitely concise. Note: the congressman's allegation was added to the intro section after someone removed all mention of the counter allegations from the intro, they claimed there were no notable supporters or defenders of CBS or Dan Rather. They may have also been claiming it was a "conspiracy theory" which is turning into a broken record on wikipedia. zen master T 21:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Killian documents are controversial documents that were in the news during the 2004 US presidential campaign. The memos were purportedly written by the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian and were presented as authentic in a 60 Minutes story criticizing President George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard (TexANG) during the Vietnam War. (No mention of when they were presented, unlike my version) After questions over the authenticity of the documents arose, initially on political blogs and then in the traditional news media, CBS ordered an independent investigation. The blue-ribbon panel (what is a blue ribbon panel?) reported it "was not able to reach a definitive conclusion as to the authenticity of the Killian documents," (misleading as the commission was not tasked with validating the documents, and also omits the point that the expert consulted by the panel thought the documents were forged, which is mentioned in the report section of this article) but found that CBS News had badly mishandled the story.(pdf) ( http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf) A large majority of document experts consider the documents to be fake. The affair, sometimes referred to as Rathergate, has damaged the reputation of CBS News and Dan Rather while bringing considerable attention to the blogging phenomenon.
This was inserted by me, to put it above the (unsubstantiated allegations in the) para that follows: Critics of CBS and Dan Rather suggested that CBS's decision to air the story reflected an attempt to influence the United States Presidential Election of 2004. Mary Mapes, the producer of the piece, was faulted for not appearing objective by calling Joe Lockhart, a senior official in the John Kerry campaign prior to the airing of the piece and offering to put him in touch with the source of the documents.
Some defenders of Dan Rather and CBS have alleged that Republicans, possibly Karl Rove and/or Roger Stone, preempted the controversy over President Bush's service record in the Texas Air National Guard by creating and supplying the questionable Killian documents used in the 60 Minutes report in order to misdirect from a potentially legitimate source of criticism. (This has never been substantiated by any EVIDENCE) Some Republicans dismiss that allegation and claim an opponent of Bush, possibly Bill Burkett who admits to bringing the documents to CBS, falsified the documents. The origin of the documents prior to Bill Burkett and CBS is disputed.
This part is awkward: I summarize this sentence more concisely be saying "a related controversy is...see also:" A related controversy exists over whether or not the allegations contained in the questionable documents are actually true. Democrats generally have focused on the allegations of criticism of Bush's Vietnam era National Guard service while Republicans have focused on the questions regarding the authenticity of the documents themselves.
Kaiser, you aren't actually debating or defending the changes you are proposing? We spent weeks here coming up with the version that is currently in use. You are going to have to point by point, on the talk page, explain why your version is better? Redundantly pasting your version into the talk page doesn't count as debate. I believe your version is worse and borderline POV vandalism. zen master T 01:27, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaisershatner 22:41, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaisershatner 22:51, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How am I avoiding the issue exactly? You are removing information. I stated support for just removing only "possible Karl Rove and/or Roger Stone" from the intro, nothing else from "my" (consensus) version should be removed. How does that support the massive changes you keep trying to make. zen master T 01:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(1) please identify what information you allege that I am removing. (2) please explain why you object to my changing the following:
(3) you do not own this article (4) you have repeatedly reverted my edits without justification other than a claim that I am making "massive changes." 68.173.44.81 22:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) Kaisershatner 22:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) So what's the deal, are you trolling or do you want to debate this?
Zen, Kaisershatner made massive changes because the article needs them. Please stop making reverts you can't justify. This is an article about the Killian documents. Mapes produced the CBS story that presented them as authentic. Rove and Stone have no known connection with them. Why is it inconsistent to mention Mapes but not Rove and Stone in the intro? Anonip 00:06, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaistershatner has pointed out a number of serious issues with the opening paragraph, including the most salient, that it is more of a whitewash than even CBS produced. Jayjg (talk) 02:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hey, who removed the animated gif? It was very informative, a picture is worth a thousand words of blather. Were someone's delicate aesthetic sensibilities offended or what?
I put this back in, I think the removal was inadvertent. Kaisershatner 19:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen-master, I see you've changed the location of the pic I uploaded. I prefer it the other way, and if you review [ [5]], and look at the pages for the Declaration of Independance, the US Constitution, Federalist Papers, the 9/11 Commission report, the majority is consistent with the style I had introduced. If you don't mind too much, would you change it back? Kaisershatner 17:35, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, I checked the version history, and my last version had the image too large; I just changed it to what I had intended (a smaller size offset), which was what I meant to do originally. I think I had a browser problem or something. I don't think this version has the problem of cutting off the text, which the other version did (inadvertently!). When I checked the history I saw why you objected. I'm afraid this whole problem was my error. Sorry. Kaisershatner 19:47, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, I see that you have resumed editing as well, and I'm hopeful we can cooperate. So far, you've changed some things I put in, but I understand why and I think they are reasonable. I may try to copyedit a bit (you use "Bush" three times in the last sentence of the first para).
Going forward, I'm hoping to re-establish the timeline of the story (1) broadcast (2) blogs (3) mainstream media reaction (4) defense by CBS, and (5) repudiation of memos by CBS and independent panel. I will do so without removing information, and with special sensitivity to the allegations of the left, so as not to appear other than NPOV. Sincerely, Kaisershatner 19:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re: Timeline, I meant in the body of the article, not the intro. Stay tuned. Also, in the article under "initial skepticism" the rapid response and technical nature of the Buckhead reply is noted to have "fueled speculation on the political left that the entire document controversy was a right-wing conspiracy." That is a factual summary of those events that doesn't take a position on the merit of this viewpoint either way (neutral point of view). Kaisershatner 14:35, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is neutrality still disputed? It isn't by me; while I think the article still needs serious editing for factual incompleteness, it isn't horribly NPOV right now from where I'm standing. Anyone from the left want to weigh in on this? Kaisershatner 16:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the NPOV of ths article remains disputed. Anonip 21:42, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought this article is about 1) whether the memos are accurate 2) the actions of Dan Rather and CBS News. Too bad Dan Rather is hardly mentioned in the article. Did he or did he not play an important row in this controversy? Why put the "Explanatory Theories" in the second section? People have the right to know the facts before they are fed with conspiracy theories. I think the article should be structured as such:
- Anon IP
The "evidence the documents reflected the truth" doesn't belong here. It belongs in George W. Bush military service controversy. Anonip 00:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe Zen-master is including the "Explanatory Theories" because he is worried that this article will be used to defend Bush's military record. I propose that we take our attention away from Bush, and refocus on the memos and CBS. By doing this, we steer away from the Bush controversy, and focus on the memo controversy. There is no reason why fake memos can be used to validate/invalidate Bush's military record.
This article has become so long winded and irrelavent...
One more thing...Zen, corroborating evidence that the allegations "might be true" DOES NOT NULLIFY THIS CONTROVERSY as you have repeatedly stated. Even if Bush was actually AWOL, that wouldn't justify CBS using forged documents to "prove" that, would it? Kaisershatner 00:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kaisershatner, I assume you are the author. I like the article the way it was a few months ago much better, concise and to the point. Can we revert back, and give a PROMINENT section at the end for "explanatory theories?"
In summary, you continue to introduce statements that suggest the documents are somehow legitimate because of the possible truth of their allegations, when no-one editing this article is seriously disputing that possibility, you continue to resist attempts to make the article about the Killian Documents primarily reflect the nature of the forgery and the history of CBS self-described poor judgement in publizicing them, you continue to give the circumstantial evidence that the content of the faked memos might be legitimate equal weight with the objective evidence that they were forged and that CBS denied and ignored this for almost two weeks, and finally, as Anonip has repeatedly pointed out, there is very little that can be done about this. I'm less familiar with the process than Anonip, so I have a small hope that maybe some kind of arbitration is possible, but basically, I agree with Anonip that logic will not convince you. Logic cannot convince you that this article should be about the Killian documents and not about Bush's service record, and that's the main point of contention, and logic cannot convince you that the totally unsubstantiated allegations that "originals" of these memos exist should not be given any serious weight. Kaisershatner 18:47, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
To the previous poster who asked if I am "the author," I don't know what you mean; if you check the article history you can see where I came into this, and prior to my involvement, the opening paragraph attributed the story to Karl Rove, and didn't mention Mapes or CBS's "minor" hand in bringing these docs to public attention. So I'm not sure it was really a better article before I tried to drive it back toward reality. Kaisershatner 18:47, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NOUN: Something alleged; an assertion: allegations of disloyalty. The act of alleging. A statement asserting something without proof: The newspaper's charges of official wrongdoing were mere allegations. Law An assertion made by a party that must be proved or supported with evidence.
Marion Carr Knox's statement that the documents "may have been copied from originals" is an assertion that is unsupported by EVIDENCE, ie original documents of some kind.
Please indicate that there is "supporting evidence" that the documents were copied. Ideally you could support this with an external reference, ie some kind of neutral or mainstream source who supports your contention that there is "supporting evidence."
And again, you claim "the contents...are very relevant," and again, I state: the contents are already a part of the article and do not justify your edits. You are not editing to introduce the contents of the documents, which are already in there, but to change the focus of the article away from the forged docs and CBS' conduct, as well as inserting unsupported statements like the above regarding "evidence."
Kaisershatner 11:50, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, when you write "recreated from originals" I assume you mean someone created documents that were not authentic but would appear to be authentic. Isn't that the definition of forgery? Kaisershatner 14:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As part of a larger edit, Kaisershatner inserted the following sentence:
There are two problems with this, in my opinion:
I have removed that sentence for reconsideration. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 16:28, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, since you insist on reprinting that there is "corroborating evidence," but won't list it, I have listed it for you. If there is other such evidence that you think should be cited, please feel free to cite it. Kaisershatner 21:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In answer to Kaisershatner's question, I followed the affair and was well aware of the secretary's corroboration from memory of Killian's opinion of the young Bush. It's a weak corroboration, given the fallibility of human memory, but significant nonetheless. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
On another note, I think the breakthrough Zen-master and I had is that we probably will never agree on what constitutes "corroborating evidence," but we can certainly agree that Knox said the things she said. Let's all keep working on introducing the facts. Kaisershatner 16:04, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The documents are fakes. They're not valid evidence. The secretary's statements can't strengthen or support them. Her statements actually corroborate the fact that the documents are fakes (see the quotes I included above). To the extent that her statements are direct evidence concerning the allegations about Bush's TANG service, they should be included in the article on that subject, ( George W. Bush military service controversy). Anonip 01:06, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's true, documents can be real or fake. These are fake. And yes, the contents can be real or fake. The contents of these are fake. The secretary's statement corroborates this. Whether the allegations supposedly supported by the fake contents of these fake document happen to be true or not has no significance whatsoever. Anonip 04:05, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's rather too much weasely speculation of the "some say", "some think" kind in this article, in my opinion. We know the blogs and whatnot are full of silly conspiracy theories on either side--statements from blogs that have had a significant effect should be reported, but idle statements that amount to no more than speculations have no place in this article except where we report on who voiced them and what effect this had.
Hard facts are sometimes missed, too. It should be in the lead that the White House initially accepted the documents as authentic (presumably trusting the journalists to get things right) and this was taken by NBCCBS as confirmation of their authenticity, which at that time had not been sufficiently determined. Armed with the confidence that White House communications director Dan Bartlett wasn't challenging authenticity, NBCCBS made a bad call and went to air with it story, shorn of a section where Rather interviewed a handwriting expert. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 17:08, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NBC? Wasn't it CBS? Anonip 18:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, thanks. Apologies for the confusion. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Creating a section to address this, since Zen has made changes but doesn't reply to my concerns listed above. To reiterate, I have repeatedly asked that the "corroborating evidence" he alleges exists be indicated. Since the Carr testimony in my OPINION is not corroborating evidence, but in Zen's view IS evidence, I suggested a compromise - rather than a subjective claim that there is evidence, let's print the OBJECTIVE facts: that Knox thought the docs were forged but that they reflected in her opinion, Killian's view of Bush. That would appear to resolve that dispute, wouldn't it? Kaisershatner 21:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I retract my objection to this small point, and again, I'm hopeful that by sticking to the undisputed facts we can put together an article. Kaisershatner 21:09, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zen, I think the phrase, "also known as Rathergate", is accurate and appropriate. It simply informs the reader that the controversy is known by this name. What's your objection to it?
The phrase I'm suggesting is "known as" rather than "called". It simply informs the reader that the controversy is known by this name. It avoids the need to characterize usage. And while I recognize your POV that it refers to what you believe is "just the surface level" of the controversy, that is what the mainstream media reporting and the CBS investigation focused on, and what the general public is aware of. Anonip 06:18, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Democrats believe the fact the controversy is called Rathergate is actually evidence of a Republican preemptively engineered plan." Should we include this statement? Anonip 18:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sure we do, the 2003 invasion of Iraq article specifically says "refered to by proponents as the 'Liberation of Iraq'". Though I am ok with a brief mention at the very top of the article on memogate and rathergate as long as we leave in in the intro the sentence about Rathergate's usage being primarily by critics of Rather (not common). If that is all you guys wanted I apologize (I thought you were saying we should remove any mention of the fact that critics of dan rather and conservative media outlets are primarily the ones that use Rathergate). zen master T 21:02, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed the section: (1) the documents' supporters and detractors are documented in the body of the article, along with their political leaning, (2) the validity of the documents is a separate question from what partisans on either side thought, which in any case is already addressed in the body, (3) the Pajamahadeen section is already in the body, (4) the Thornburg/Boccardi info is already in the body. Kaisershatner 15:27, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
One common thread to the debate over the documents' authenticity lies in the partisanship of the debate participants. Most obviously, there is the fact that the most influential bloggers currently supporting the claim of authenticity are well-known for holding liberal views [9] [10], while the earliest and most influential bloggers to question their authenticity such as Little Green Footballs [11] [12], Power Line (blog) [13], and Jim Geraghty at National Review Online [14] [15] generally holding conservative views. The conservative bloggers even began to refer to themselves collectively by a self-deprecating name, the Pajamahadeen, in reference to comments made by a CBS executives. Those bloggers viewed this affair as confirmation of a " liberal bias" at CBS News, particularly because CBS went ahead with the report even after doubts were raised by some of their own document experts. The Thornburgh/Boccardi Report, however, concluded that an eagerness to land the story was at fault rather than a liberal bias, while acknowledging that Mapes' contacting the Kerry camp was "a clear conflict of interest."
Here's another proposal: Move the all of the typographical and other authenticity issues to a subpage, linked from the first paragraph via something like "a detailed analysis of the typographical and other authenticity issues is HERE," making the article under 70k, and allowing the addition of some pictures. My thinking is that the average reader isn't interested in the microdetails of typesetting and font widths, etc., especially since at this stage, the fact that the documents were forged isn't disputed much at all (in my research on this article I found that even DNC Chair Terry McAuliffe calls them forgeries). Since all of the typographical & content issues are still quite important, I thought maybe giving them their own page would be possible. I may try to make a trial subpage if I can figure out how to do that, to provide an example, but do you guys think this is a horrible idea? Kaisershatner 16:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC) Check this out: [ [16]
I posted comments at Zen-master and JamesMLane's pages requesting their input on this suggestion. 207.122.19.254 16:48, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I wish to add some more issues to the fact that these documents are forgeries.
1. The word-wrapping is reproducable by Microsoft Word, but ONLY in Word 2000 and later. It is NOT reproducable in Word 97 or earlier versions. The default breaks occur at different points. This would indicate that the forger used a fairly new version of the software available to do the job. My source is that I performed tests on multiple versions of Word myself, but you are welcome to verify this independantly.
2. ALL military documents since WWI use the same kind of folders for storage. (My wife was working for a company copying information out of such folders recently, and pointed this out). All such folders have the two pronged fold over metal holder, and as such use a two hole punch in the top of the page. Most of the time, such punches go thru headers. None of these documents displayed these holes, or even photocopies of these holes.
3. You missed the other cute stupidity the forger left in. The memo ordered George Bush to report for a physical on Mother's day, when the entire base was closed.
Mycroft 7 Jan 2005
I added statements and links by Mrs. Carr before the 60 mins interview, along with the source here. [17]-bro 172.133.83.48 30 June 2005 08:18 (UTC)
The article exhaustively analyzes the authenticity and motivation re the forgery but does not discuss at all any evidence re the document's sources. This should at least be mentioned, as far as either stating no one has yet been prosecuted and the obvious suspects have not been charged.
Any attempt to whitewash the scandal and say it wasn't a scandal is an example of POV. A Google search of Killian Documents Scandal yields 16,000 results. A scandal is a scandal is a scandal. Sadly POV continues to rear its ugly head here.-- Agiantman 04:54, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
All scandals are controversies. Not all controversies are scandals. The 6.6% difference you found shows that only 6.6% of writers do not identify the killian documents scandal as a scandal. They see it as a mere controversy. The rest, 93.4%, identify it as a scandal. Thank you very much. Case closed.-- Agiantman 22:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Referring to these "documents" as documents adds a false patina of legitimacy. The heraldy, provenance and genesis of the source papers from which these images of faxed photocopies were (we've been told) created, has never been established. Rather, what has been established by the preponderance of the evidence is that these so-called "documents" are forgeries. When one forges paper money, one ends up with a piece of paper, but that paper is NOT money. Likewise, when one forges documents, one ends up with papers, but those papers are NOT documents. By calling them anything other than purported or so-called, we are framing the debate as if the papers have been established to be genuine. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 04:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Rex has deleted substantial information with the stated rationale that the deletion is "to bring closer POV balance in text amounts to opposing theories". This is improper. To the extent that there is any imbalance, the appropriate course of action is explained in Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Space and balance: "The remedy is to add to the article—not to subtract from it." JamesMLane 06:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
We could always insert, verbatim, the Lucy Ramirez article (as it now stands) into Killian documents if that helps you out. As for "crackpot", it's a lot easier to toss around unverfied (and unverifiable) allegations - which is what the "Rove did it" "Republicans did it" claims are. Frankly, I don't believe that you are being on the level when you insist on a 3-1 or 5-1 ratio of shrill, crackpot charges. As to what people believe, well I suppose if enough people keep lying to them on this topic, they just might come to believe that "Rove did it". Of course, if that were even remotely true, Dan Rather would still have his job. So I suppose the Brass at CBS doesn't believe the way you surmise "Hinchey and McAuliffe" has supposedly been able to lead a "significant minority" to believe. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Kevin, I don't agree with that logic at all. If I go around saying "Volkswagon is responsible for the death of President Kennedy", "Volkswagon is responsible for the death of Will Rogers", " Volkswagon is responsible for the the death of Fatty Arbuckle", simply if I am able to get those allegations published in the press, does not mean they ought to also get into a wiki article. Suffice it to say, by including so many far out allegations, the article borders on the absurd. There is no and has been no bona-fide inquiries which returned as a bona-fide result, information indicating anything other than these "documents" being fed into the food chain via anti-Bush partisans. It's patently silly for us to give more ink to absurd conjectures under a section called "explanatory theories", that we give to the single theory from the R side which is "liberal bias" (in this instance, aka anti-Bush partisans).
Even so, if you are now saying that you want me to flesh out in the explanatory theories section various contentions against Mapes, Burkett, Rather, Rather's daughter, Travis County Democrats, etc, with an approximately equal number of words that the crackpot theories are getting, then if you insist on jamming more finger pointing in the article, well so be it.
And please take note, one of my main objections to the "crackpot" theories is the volume of them being included, diminishes the scholarly value of the article. Instead of it being a reasoned conveyence of the most probable facts, it becomes a hodge-podge of sillyness - surpassing some of the "black helicopter" crowd for crackpot-ness. At least that's how I feel. Suffice it to say, by leaving the wacko claims in, we reduce the reception level of the readers from being willing to say to themselves "hmmm, looks like there was a bona-fide scandal here" to "all the politicians do is point fingers - bah". And it's the latter of the two results which helps wrongly downplay this whole sordid affair. Of course, the less credible any reports on this topic becomes, the more it keeps egg off the face of the anti-Bush partisans who are the actual culprits. And frankly, that's an editorial tack that I oppose. I oppose the inclusion of excess "crackpot" allegations on the grounds that including them undercuts the legitimacy of the entire article - by making it seem absurd.
Personally, I think a single para, for each "side" in that section is enough. However, I'm gonna pledge flexibility here - as Alan King once said to Ali McGraw in a movie, "just tell me what you want". And since it appears, you are telling me you want copious amounts of finger pointing (crackpot or not) embedded into the article - in the explanatory theories section - then that's what we shall have. Or am I reading you wrong? Rex071404 216.153.214.94 18:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
This seems to be a moot point, since I don't think Rex is disputing their inclusion at this point. W/R/T the Lucy Ramirez page, I think it's a fine idea, for the same reason. Maybe it's a crackpot theory, maybe not, but it's not for me to decide - let the reader draw their own conclusions from the objective facts. A person reading this article should be able to draw a line from these objectively provable occurrences:
If after all that a reader still decides the "Rove must have done it" view is more credible than the "Rather ignored his own experts in order to make Bush look bad" view, then they are free to draw that conclusion. Was it Daniel Patrick Moynihan who said, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts?" So let's concentrate on making the article objective and label speculation as speculation, okay? Kaisershatner 01:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Can be found here: Lucy Ramirez. Please do not delete this wiki link. Thank you. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 07:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Karl Rove is only mentioned once in the article, re Hinchey's allegations, and then his name is not even hyperlinked!!!! Truly amazing. This really smacks of an active Repugnican sanitizing effort on this article.
He's not mentioned more because other than listing the allegations against him, there has never been any evidence of his involvement (see: tu quoque). Kaisershatner 16:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
"The circumstantial evidence cited by supporters of this theory includes:
I could see some people thinking the latter two are circumstantial evidence of something if they really wanted to believe it - but nothing connecting it to Rove - and the first one, even if granted as unimpeachably valid, just points out Rove has supposedly done bad things before, but again doesn't actually tie him to this. "Rove did dirty tricks before. This is a dirty trick. Therefore Rove might be involved?" Is there some different definition of circumstantial evidence we're using? Kaisershatner 14:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
The article now reads:
The caveat here is idiotic. Even if one of these typewriters could have been manipulated in this way in the 1970s in order to approximate the features of a later personal computer, what possible motivation was there to do so? This simply illustrates the lengths to which some Wikipedia editors will go in denying reality to maintain their partisan POV.
The documents have been shown by experts to be forgeries, beyond any reasonable doubt. The article's failure to report this is clearly the result of partisan bias to the point of irrationality. This issue is a simple litmus test for left-wing lunatics. No one who denies that the documents have been shown by experts to be forgeries can have their views taken seriously on any subject.