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Talk:Kiev/Archive02. Thank you. —
Michael
Z. 2005-03-15 22:47 Z
Are you sure about the original name "Danapirstadir"? I searched for it on Google and came up with nothing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.60.81 ( talk) 02:44, 5 January 2003 (UTC)
According to the Ukrainian government, the official spelling of the city in English is "Kyiv". So, I propose moving the page to "Kyiv", and putting a redirect at "Kiev", the opposite of how it is now. "Kiev" is a romanisation of the name of the city in Russian, and as Ukrainian is the sole official language of Ukraine, keeping it like this is somewhat offensive. See how the Bombay - Mumbai issue was resolved. - Kricxjo 15:20, 8 March 2003 (UTC)
Well I don't think those should be there either. I've never heard of Mumbai & Kolkata. -- Tarquin 10:32, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)
This is the English wiki. I'm moving it back to Kiev. RickK 02:59, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I agree with RickK & Efghij. Kiev is the proper english name. For example, Germany is also listed under Germany and not Deutschland, Japan is Japan and not Nihon, Austria is not Oesterreich. Nobody knows Mumbai & Kolkata. Chris_73 12:03, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime)
I have no doubt that the Kyiv transliteration will be widely accepted in English someday. But it is not now. Our function on Wikipedia is not to set trends, it is to report on trends that have already been set, and as of yet this one has not been set. What matters here is not Ukra[i]nian wire services or travel guides translated into English, what matters here is UK, US, Australian etc. wire services and, more important, published scholarly works in the English-speaking world. - Hephaestos 03:27, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Note: On the online Merriam Webster [ [1]] the main entriy is Kiev. Variant(s) or Ukrainian Kyiv or Kyyiv. So i agree with Kiev. However, i have no problem at all with the redirect of Kyiv to Kiev. Chris_73 12:35, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime)
Regardless of where the article is, it needs to discuss the polemics over the current name of the city. Kricxjo 03:37, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
How about using Kiev / Kyiv until the old name drops out of use? ( 13:54, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Can somebody provide the local Ukranian name for the city? E.g. we say "Kiev, from the Russian [...] ...", so can we also say "It is increasingly called Kyiv, from the Ukranian [...] ..."? -- Delirium 23:22, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)
IMO the city should be refered to as Kyiv, and the header should say something like the russified name of Kiev ( Russian Киев) is also used. Due to political reasons all cities in former USSR were refered to internationally with their Russian names. Fortunately, this policy is discontinued and I think wikipedia should use the traditional, reintroduced name. Halibutt 12:46, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Just like most people still use Stalingrad for Volgograd and Leningrad for St Petersburg. Yet, nobody proposes to move the pages to the former names... Halibutt 07:06, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
When the number of hits at "two" is greater than or equal to the number of hits at "one", then the page is moved to Kyiv. Facts are not negotiable. Re-read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) until it sinks in.
- Hephaestos| § 14:44, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
302,000 English pages for Danzig
286,000 English pages for Gdansk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdansk
2,450,000 English pages for Torino
1,180,000 English pages for Turin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin
2 Hephaestos|§
So what will be redirected: Gdansk to Danzig or Kiev to Kyiv ?--
Inhvar 17:49, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Transliteration should be made directly between Ukrainian and English without the use of any intermediary languages"
Kiev?, Kyiv?! Which is right? On the basis of expert analysis by the Ukrainian Language Institute under the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine regarding the Roman-letter correspondence to the Ukrainian language geographic name of Kiev, taking into account that the spelling Kyiv is indeed in the modern practice of Ukraine’s international communication, proceeding from the urgent need to standardize the recreation of Ukrainian proper names through Roman letters tn the context of Ukraine’s integration into the world legal realm, based on point 6 part 4(b) of the Provision on the Ukrainian Commission for Legal Terminology approved by decree No 796 of the President of Ukraine on August 23, 1995 "Regarding the Provision on the Committee for Legislative Initiatives under the President of Ukraine, on the Ukrainian Codification Commission and on the Ukrainian Commission for Legal Terminology", the Commission HAS APPROVED:
1. To acknowledge that the Roman spelling of Kiev does not recreate the phonetic and scriptural features of the Ukrainian language geographical name.
2. To confirm that spelling of Kyiv as standardized Roman-letter correspondence to the Ukrainian language geographical name of Київ.
There's precedent for going either way. Mumbia Mumbai was the official language version, and Bombay is what everyone else called it - Wikipedia used Mumbia
Mumbai . By the same token, Makkah is the official version, but Mecca is what everyone else calls it - we use Mecca. I've initiated talk on the villagepump to standarize our practice. We'll probably end up having a long, bloody poll somewhere.
→Raul654 17:42, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
Just a few replies here.
Is there any way we could duplicate the content--have two pages, Kyiv and Kiev, with the exact same text and intro except for "Kiev, also known as Kyiv" and "Kyiv, also known as Kiev"? Meelar 21:01, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Repeat after me. "This is the English Wikipedia." The majority of English speakers use Kiev, not Kyiv. Rick K 02:46, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"As fundamental to the need for global standardization of geographical names,
UNGEGN promotes the recording of locally-used names reflecting the languages and traditions of a country. UNGEGN's goal is for every country to decide on its own nationally standardized names through the creation of national names authorities or recognized administrative processes."
Wikipedia: Naming_conventions_(use_English) Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. ... "There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name...One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. However, whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title." Ukrainian government decision: "Transliteration should be made directly between Ukrainian and English without the use of any intermediary languages" "...spelling Kyiv is indeed in the modern practice of Ukraine’s international communication..."
From what I have seen on Wikipedia "anglicized forms" that reflect names from (mostly) colonial times are redirected to "native or official forms" (in English or Roman alphabeth). In cases where anglicized forms are not similar/identical to (or taken from) languages of foreign rule period there is no problem (Rome, Munich, Copenhagen, Turin, Prague, Lisbon, Moscow, Athens etc... ). Not foreign/colonial but official/native forms are used for
Gdansk/Danzig,
Mumbai/Bombay,
Kolkata/Calcutta,
Guangzhou/Canton. Traditional english (and western) Peking is also redirected to official form
Beijing. Also some governments don't want names of their countries to be translated to other language like
Côte d'Ivoire, so Ivory Coast is also redirected to main page named by offical version in French..Official (new) names also -
Belarus/White Russia or Byelorussia
Myanmar/Burma. United Nations also promote native/offical forms, so my proposition is to add paragraph in
Wikipedia: Naming_conventions_(use_English): " If country's government has adopted decraration on how its native names should be written in English or internationaly then these forms should be used for main page and other forms should redirect to them."
Who cares about the United Nations or the Ukrainian government? Google search is the key! But seriously, unfortunately there can be no compromise here. As shown above all big cities with colonial past have their former names dropped in wikipedia. It seems to me that Kiev is the last stand. What for? Halibutt 02:05, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that there isn't a consistent way of handling this issue on Wikipedia (yet). First of all, here's a quote from Google test: It should be stressed that none of these applications is conclusive evidence, but simply a first-pass heuristic. We should bear this in mind. Then, I don't think it's easy to resolve these disagreements. The city is called Ки́їв. Now what we actually argue about is whether a romanization has actually become an English word. Now we enter the realm of authority... can a government decide how we spell words? does the UN have a say? the OED/M-W? Yes, we have a naming convention (Use English), but what is English? Kokiri 15:33, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia's naming conventions should reflect the overall standards used in the English-writing world.
and
It is interesting to note that for each of these cases, the US Department of State uses the more common name. [7]
If (and when) the newer spellings become more common, that is when the Wikipedia articles should change their spellings, and not before. In the English language, the only arbiter of usage is usage itself. Foreign governments can scream at us until they're blue in the face about the "correct" way to spell their city name, language name, or whatever, but unless that spelling is taken up and used by a majority of English writers, then it doesn't mean anything. It is not Wikipedia's responsibility to capitulate to the spelling whims every foreign government deigns to throw our way. Our spellings should reflect standard spellings inasmuch that standard spellings are defined by usage, as measured by Google or whoever. We can always change the spelling if it becomes more common to use the new spelling. Remember, Wikipedia is not paper, so we can change the spellings whenever we want.
I sympathize with the Ukrainians in their desire to remove the Russian influence on their perception abroad. I wish them luck in making "Kyiv" a more common spelling than "Kiev". However, Wikipedia is an inappropriate place for them to wage their campaign, and insisting on the spelling "Kyiv" is pushing a POV as much any other kind of biased writing.
In the meantime, this article should indicate that "Kyiv" is an alternative spelling pushed by the Ukrainians, but that "Kiev" remains most common in English, and the article should exclusively use "Kiev" to refer to the city. Also, it should note that the English pronunciation "kee-EV" or "kee-EF" is much more common than "kee-IF". Nohat 21:37, 2004 Apr 21 (UTC)
Also, I wanted to note that the Google test refers to using Google to determine whether or not something is worth writing about, NOT about determining standard spellings in English. Nohat 21:44, 2004 Apr 21 (UTC)
Information on Wikipedia should be updated to present nowdays conditions. Anyone interested in subject knows that Kyiv is present day name. Look at British embassy site: The British Embassy in Kyiv is the official representation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Ukraine. http://www.britemb-ukraine.net -- Inhvar 00:02, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It has been alleged that the Google test is not a useful test and its results should be diregarded. However, the results of Google are supported by other search engines:
Search Engine | Kiev | Kyiv | Factor |
---|---|---|---|
3,700,000 | 501,000 | 7.38 | |
Yahoo | 4,600,000 | 487,000 | 9.45 |
Teoma | 846,500 | 130,900 | 6.47 |
alltheweb | 400,818 | 74,183 | 5.40 |
altavista | 991,962 | 103,624 | 9.57 |
Hotbot | 998,774 | 97,485 | 10.2 |
Lycos | 998,629 | 97,483 | 10.2 |
What other methods would those who disagree with this test use for testing the frequency or commonness of any particular usage? Nohat 03:34, 2004 Apr 22 (UTC)
I think we (quite rightly) moved on to a general discussion. Isn't the problem that we have no standardized convention how to determine popularity. Maybe we should establish that (for example) if both Google and Yahoo agree by a clear margin, then we should go with that? We should also define the parameters (e.g. only inlude English pages; I'm not sure GoogleFight does this...).
Oh, and when we change the spelling because the popularity is different, we must leave a note on the talk pages so that everyone knows what's going on. Also, changing a spelling means updating text, not only moving an article. Kokiri 10:15, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'm not a fan of the Google test, but we need some kind of convention. Otherwise we'll have this discussion time and time again. Kokiri 13:04, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC) P.S. can we move this discussion to somewhere else ?
1. Some say that Kiev is an English word. Since when and for how long? English writter Joseph Marshall that visited city called him Kiovia in his book in English language, year 1770. Communist Soviet Union had rule that all names should be written trough Russian form internationaly, like Tallin (not Estonian Tallinn), Kishinev (not moldovan Chisinau) and Kiev (not Ukrainian Kyiv). Communism colapsed and today native form are prefered as seen on British Embassy site in Kyiv. So I just wanted to show that Kiev is not English "standard" word for city during all times and for all-times (like Peking/ Beijing case).
2. As for Google counting method, there are other similar cases where present day native names are still less popular in English web BUT ARE USED ON WIKIPEDIA. Google English pages - Ho Chi Minh City 624,000 / Saigon 749,000 , Gdansk 272,000 / Danzig 280,000 , Kolkata 305,000 / Calcutta 940,000, Guangzhou 628,000 / Canton 3,070,000, Côte d'Ivoire 742,000 / Ivory Coast 2,580,000 and I don-t see them removed to "English web prefered name" rule.
3. I have already given my suggestion how to resolve conflict :
From what I have seen on Wikipedia "anglicized forms" that reflect names from (mostly) colonial times are redirected to "native or official forms" (in English or Roman alphabeth). In cases where anglicized forms are not similar/identical to (or taken from) languages of foreign rule period there is no problem (Rome, Munich, Copenhagen, Turin, Prague, Lisbon, Moscow, Athens etc... ). Not foreign/colonial but official/native forms are used for Gdansk/Danzig, Mumbai/Bombay, Kolkata/Calcutta, Guangzhou/Canton. Traditional english (and western) Peking is also redirected to official form Beijing. Also some governments don't want names of their countries to be translated to other language like Côte d'Ivoire, so Ivory Coast is also redirected to main page named by offical version in French..Official (new) names also - Belarus/White Russia or Byelorussia Myanmar/Burma. United Nations also promote native/offical forms, so my proposition is to add paragraph in Wikipedia: Naming_conventions_(use_English): " If country's government has adopted decraration on how its native names should be written in English or internationaly then these forms should be used for main page and other forms should redirect to them." + Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names) -- Inhvar 00:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
See also [18] Nohat 05:05, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)
We could use some more voices in the discussion currently at talk:Kiev. It's been argued that "Kiev" is appropriate because it returns more google hits, but that (Soviet-imposed) spelling is offensive to many Ukrainians. The Government of Ukraine has formally requested that their capitol be spelled "Kyiv" in English; a request that has been honored by the UN and the US State Department. While google hit counts are useful in many cases, I don't feel that we should allow them to enslave us when other important factors are involved. There is precedent for correctness overruling hit count, e.g. with Gdansk/Danzig and Mumbai/Bombay. Please chime in at talk:Kiev so we can reach a consensus one way or the other and get the article unprotected. Mkweise 17:28, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This issue seems to come up a lot. The "official" name is different than what everyone else calls it. Consider Mumbia vs Bombay , Kiev vs Kyiv, Makkah vs Mecca. I think we need to be consistent, and I think we need an official policy on this. →Raul654 17:36, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
Agreed with keeping Kiev. Many, if not places are different in English to their local name (think Munich vs Munchen). However, Myanmar is the accepted name for Burma now in the same way that Sri Lanka replaced Ceylon, and most up to date English reference materials seem to refer to Myanmar rather than Burma. Dainamo 11:18, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just to end this debate once and for all, I declare Wikipedia:Naming policy poll open for buisness. Everyone please vote there. →Raul654 04:17, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
If -- when the China declared that Peking was now Beijing, and the world accepted -- what is the problem with accepting, with respect, KYIV? The Russian name for the city was used all these years because Ukraine was a colony, a subjugated part of the Russian/Soviet empire, and the language, culture, history and everything else was perverted. At one time the language was even forbideen (Ems Ukaz). Now that the country is free, and still struggling to reclaim its identity and life (empires are so hard to lose), respect and let the people have their own geographical names, transliterated into English from the UKRAINIAN language. Lviv, Dnipro, Dnister, Kyiv. Why should this be such a difficult thing? Sri Lanka, Beijing.... you can learn, and respect.
"Most people using Kiev or any of the other controversial terms are probably completely unaware of any controversy". Exactly, and their don't wish to know anything about the controversy or have to learn a new spelling. I want to be clear that I'm happy to keep up with the times, and as the post below indicates, more and more people are using Kyiv. But for now, "Kiev" still outnumbers "Kyiv" by a ratio of more than 5 to 1. When that gets to less than 2 to 1, then I'll be willing to entertaining proposals to change it to Kyiv. Until then, the vast majority of usage is "Kiev", and we should reflect that. Nohat 21:35, 2004 Apr 25 (UTC)
I just noticed that the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv is starting to use that spelling. [19]. It hasn't moved the DNS spelling for the site yet and it doesn't look like it has filtered up to the State Dept. yet though. older ≠ wiser 21:23, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
OK, here some more evidence why we cannot rely on the Google Test as being the definitive test for naming disputes.
I don't think the evidence, even using this unreliable method, is quite so overwhelming anymore. older ≠ wiser 16:32, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
An addendum: Another reason I do not think the Google Test is appropriate as the definitive test for "current" usage is that Google also indexes a vast amount of historical documents. So the hit counts can not be taken to accurately represent current usage only, but rather a blending of current and historical usage. older ≠ wiser 16:38, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If you apply the same restrictions to your search for "Kyiv", you only get 300,000 hits, and the resulting ratio is 5.7 to 1. Nohat 16:48, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC)
I just turned 45 years old, and to celebrate I thought I'd remove "protection" from the Kiev and Kyiv articles :-) -- Uncle Ed 21:35, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, IMHO this is a big discussion about really nothing in substance. The real purpose of Wikipedia is to give people insight about things and concepts they may come across of. Therefore the article should use the most commonly used name, but state here that there are some other versions of the same geographic name out there. Let’s name the page “Kiev (aka Kyiv)” and give a short paragraph about the different versions of naming. This could be used as a standard for most of the geographic articles as pretty much every geographic name has multiple versions to it. In fact IT DOES NOT MATTER which name we use a primary -- as soon as there are shortcuts and people are able to find what they are looking for.
Also about argument of local usage – this is English version of Wikipedia, therefore I believe we should use the names that were historically adopted in English: Germany rather than Deuchland, Moscow rather than Moskvah etc., while still offering readers other versions of spelling and have a short paragraph on their historical and cultural context. The same would be absolutely true about places like Bombei/Mumbai, Beijing/Peking, Calcutta/Kolkata and many others. And I guess we should suggest some changes to naming policy as the Google test not always work.
And last but not least – as someone who lived most of my life in Kiev, I would say that even local population uses both versions commonly. I published the text of that “Resolution of the Ukrainian commission for legal terminology” at my UA Zone web site [24] long time ago as an example of how laughable could be an attempt of some local government to establish spelling standards in foreign language. In fact if Americans would try to tell us Ukrainians how we should spell the names of American cities in Ukrainian we would be insulted. -- Uazone 07:28, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC) ( Uazone)
I know the debate is settled, but just a thought...
If it's Gdansk today, it's Gdansk because it's a predominantly Polish city. To speak of Gdansk prior to 1945 is historically inaccurate in every way.
Now, with respect to the capital of (the) Ukraine. The fact that both Russia and Ukraine trace their history to Kievan Rus is a fact. It cannot be denied. It is correct in precisely the same way as to trace the both history of Austria and Hungary to the Austro-Hungarian empire. And yes, both Kievan Rus and the Austro-Hungarian empire have dates a statu condito.
Now: it remains a painful question for nationalists of both sides, but... the modern Ukrainian orthography was established in the nineteenth century. Prior to that, Ukrainian was an archaic one that preserved the old letter yat, usually latinized to ě. Which developed phonetically in different ways between Russian and Ukrainian. Thus Kiev was spelled something like Кіīьвъ, latinized Kiěv, in both languages (forgive the yat-approximation, it's not in the standard 8-bit encodings). And please don't tell me that's a Russian spelling. Remember: under the Russian Empire, written Ukrainian was not exactly encouraged. It's the Galicians, the Ukrainians under Austria-Hungary, who used that spelling in their newspapers and books.
The entire discussion could have been put on hold, if people's peculiar members were not forever engorged, by simply using the spelling Kiěv. I'm sure the intricacies of both the Ukrainian and the Russian vowels are irrelevant to reproduce exactly in English.
Be still, my throbbing tool.
I'm bringing this up again, because the current convention is wrong. If "most people" started spelling plural's with apostrophe's, would Wikipedia do it too?
All authorities are switching to using official spellings, like "Kyiv": anglophone diplomatic missions, atlases and dictionaries. By its nature, Wikipedia should be ahead of the curve, instead of bringing up the rear. This situation is just sad.
— Michael Z. 17:45, 2004 Sep 20 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between August 2003 and December 2004.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)
Please add new archivals to
Talk:Kiev/Archive02. Thank you. —
Michael
Z. 2005-03-15 22:47 Z
Are you sure about the original name "Danapirstadir"? I searched for it on Google and came up with nothing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.60.81 ( talk) 02:44, 5 January 2003 (UTC)
According to the Ukrainian government, the official spelling of the city in English is "Kyiv". So, I propose moving the page to "Kyiv", and putting a redirect at "Kiev", the opposite of how it is now. "Kiev" is a romanisation of the name of the city in Russian, and as Ukrainian is the sole official language of Ukraine, keeping it like this is somewhat offensive. See how the Bombay - Mumbai issue was resolved. - Kricxjo 15:20, 8 March 2003 (UTC)
Well I don't think those should be there either. I've never heard of Mumbai & Kolkata. -- Tarquin 10:32, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)
This is the English wiki. I'm moving it back to Kiev. RickK 02:59, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I agree with RickK & Efghij. Kiev is the proper english name. For example, Germany is also listed under Germany and not Deutschland, Japan is Japan and not Nihon, Austria is not Oesterreich. Nobody knows Mumbai & Kolkata. Chris_73 12:03, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime)
I have no doubt that the Kyiv transliteration will be widely accepted in English someday. But it is not now. Our function on Wikipedia is not to set trends, it is to report on trends that have already been set, and as of yet this one has not been set. What matters here is not Ukra[i]nian wire services or travel guides translated into English, what matters here is UK, US, Australian etc. wire services and, more important, published scholarly works in the English-speaking world. - Hephaestos 03:27, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Note: On the online Merriam Webster [ [1]] the main entriy is Kiev. Variant(s) or Ukrainian Kyiv or Kyyiv. So i agree with Kiev. However, i have no problem at all with the redirect of Kyiv to Kiev. Chris_73 12:35, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime)
Regardless of where the article is, it needs to discuss the polemics over the current name of the city. Kricxjo 03:37, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
How about using Kiev / Kyiv until the old name drops out of use? ( 13:54, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Can somebody provide the local Ukranian name for the city? E.g. we say "Kiev, from the Russian [...] ...", so can we also say "It is increasingly called Kyiv, from the Ukranian [...] ..."? -- Delirium 23:22, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)
IMO the city should be refered to as Kyiv, and the header should say something like the russified name of Kiev ( Russian Киев) is also used. Due to political reasons all cities in former USSR were refered to internationally with their Russian names. Fortunately, this policy is discontinued and I think wikipedia should use the traditional, reintroduced name. Halibutt 12:46, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Just like most people still use Stalingrad for Volgograd and Leningrad for St Petersburg. Yet, nobody proposes to move the pages to the former names... Halibutt 07:06, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
When the number of hits at "two" is greater than or equal to the number of hits at "one", then the page is moved to Kyiv. Facts are not negotiable. Re-read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) until it sinks in.
- Hephaestos| § 14:44, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
302,000 English pages for Danzig
286,000 English pages for Gdansk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdansk
2,450,000 English pages for Torino
1,180,000 English pages for Turin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin
2 Hephaestos|§
So what will be redirected: Gdansk to Danzig or Kiev to Kyiv ?--
Inhvar 17:49, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Transliteration should be made directly between Ukrainian and English without the use of any intermediary languages"
Kiev?, Kyiv?! Which is right? On the basis of expert analysis by the Ukrainian Language Institute under the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine regarding the Roman-letter correspondence to the Ukrainian language geographic name of Kiev, taking into account that the spelling Kyiv is indeed in the modern practice of Ukraine’s international communication, proceeding from the urgent need to standardize the recreation of Ukrainian proper names through Roman letters tn the context of Ukraine’s integration into the world legal realm, based on point 6 part 4(b) of the Provision on the Ukrainian Commission for Legal Terminology approved by decree No 796 of the President of Ukraine on August 23, 1995 "Regarding the Provision on the Committee for Legislative Initiatives under the President of Ukraine, on the Ukrainian Codification Commission and on the Ukrainian Commission for Legal Terminology", the Commission HAS APPROVED:
1. To acknowledge that the Roman spelling of Kiev does not recreate the phonetic and scriptural features of the Ukrainian language geographical name.
2. To confirm that spelling of Kyiv as standardized Roman-letter correspondence to the Ukrainian language geographical name of Київ.
There's precedent for going either way. Mumbia Mumbai was the official language version, and Bombay is what everyone else called it - Wikipedia used Mumbia
Mumbai . By the same token, Makkah is the official version, but Mecca is what everyone else calls it - we use Mecca. I've initiated talk on the villagepump to standarize our practice. We'll probably end up having a long, bloody poll somewhere.
→Raul654 17:42, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
Just a few replies here.
Is there any way we could duplicate the content--have two pages, Kyiv and Kiev, with the exact same text and intro except for "Kiev, also known as Kyiv" and "Kyiv, also known as Kiev"? Meelar 21:01, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Repeat after me. "This is the English Wikipedia." The majority of English speakers use Kiev, not Kyiv. Rick K 02:46, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"As fundamental to the need for global standardization of geographical names,
UNGEGN promotes the recording of locally-used names reflecting the languages and traditions of a country. UNGEGN's goal is for every country to decide on its own nationally standardized names through the creation of national names authorities or recognized administrative processes."
Wikipedia: Naming_conventions_(use_English) Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. ... "There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name...One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. However, whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title." Ukrainian government decision: "Transliteration should be made directly between Ukrainian and English without the use of any intermediary languages" "...spelling Kyiv is indeed in the modern practice of Ukraine’s international communication..."
From what I have seen on Wikipedia "anglicized forms" that reflect names from (mostly) colonial times are redirected to "native or official forms" (in English or Roman alphabeth). In cases where anglicized forms are not similar/identical to (or taken from) languages of foreign rule period there is no problem (Rome, Munich, Copenhagen, Turin, Prague, Lisbon, Moscow, Athens etc... ). Not foreign/colonial but official/native forms are used for
Gdansk/Danzig,
Mumbai/Bombay,
Kolkata/Calcutta,
Guangzhou/Canton. Traditional english (and western) Peking is also redirected to official form
Beijing. Also some governments don't want names of their countries to be translated to other language like
Côte d'Ivoire, so Ivory Coast is also redirected to main page named by offical version in French..Official (new) names also -
Belarus/White Russia or Byelorussia
Myanmar/Burma. United Nations also promote native/offical forms, so my proposition is to add paragraph in
Wikipedia: Naming_conventions_(use_English): " If country's government has adopted decraration on how its native names should be written in English or internationaly then these forms should be used for main page and other forms should redirect to them."
Who cares about the United Nations or the Ukrainian government? Google search is the key! But seriously, unfortunately there can be no compromise here. As shown above all big cities with colonial past have their former names dropped in wikipedia. It seems to me that Kiev is the last stand. What for? Halibutt 02:05, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that there isn't a consistent way of handling this issue on Wikipedia (yet). First of all, here's a quote from Google test: It should be stressed that none of these applications is conclusive evidence, but simply a first-pass heuristic. We should bear this in mind. Then, I don't think it's easy to resolve these disagreements. The city is called Ки́їв. Now what we actually argue about is whether a romanization has actually become an English word. Now we enter the realm of authority... can a government decide how we spell words? does the UN have a say? the OED/M-W? Yes, we have a naming convention (Use English), but what is English? Kokiri 15:33, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia's naming conventions should reflect the overall standards used in the English-writing world.
and
It is interesting to note that for each of these cases, the US Department of State uses the more common name. [7]
If (and when) the newer spellings become more common, that is when the Wikipedia articles should change their spellings, and not before. In the English language, the only arbiter of usage is usage itself. Foreign governments can scream at us until they're blue in the face about the "correct" way to spell their city name, language name, or whatever, but unless that spelling is taken up and used by a majority of English writers, then it doesn't mean anything. It is not Wikipedia's responsibility to capitulate to the spelling whims every foreign government deigns to throw our way. Our spellings should reflect standard spellings inasmuch that standard spellings are defined by usage, as measured by Google or whoever. We can always change the spelling if it becomes more common to use the new spelling. Remember, Wikipedia is not paper, so we can change the spellings whenever we want.
I sympathize with the Ukrainians in their desire to remove the Russian influence on their perception abroad. I wish them luck in making "Kyiv" a more common spelling than "Kiev". However, Wikipedia is an inappropriate place for them to wage their campaign, and insisting on the spelling "Kyiv" is pushing a POV as much any other kind of biased writing.
In the meantime, this article should indicate that "Kyiv" is an alternative spelling pushed by the Ukrainians, but that "Kiev" remains most common in English, and the article should exclusively use "Kiev" to refer to the city. Also, it should note that the English pronunciation "kee-EV" or "kee-EF" is much more common than "kee-IF". Nohat 21:37, 2004 Apr 21 (UTC)
Also, I wanted to note that the Google test refers to using Google to determine whether or not something is worth writing about, NOT about determining standard spellings in English. Nohat 21:44, 2004 Apr 21 (UTC)
Information on Wikipedia should be updated to present nowdays conditions. Anyone interested in subject knows that Kyiv is present day name. Look at British embassy site: The British Embassy in Kyiv is the official representation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Ukraine. http://www.britemb-ukraine.net -- Inhvar 00:02, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It has been alleged that the Google test is not a useful test and its results should be diregarded. However, the results of Google are supported by other search engines:
Search Engine | Kiev | Kyiv | Factor |
---|---|---|---|
3,700,000 | 501,000 | 7.38 | |
Yahoo | 4,600,000 | 487,000 | 9.45 |
Teoma | 846,500 | 130,900 | 6.47 |
alltheweb | 400,818 | 74,183 | 5.40 |
altavista | 991,962 | 103,624 | 9.57 |
Hotbot | 998,774 | 97,485 | 10.2 |
Lycos | 998,629 | 97,483 | 10.2 |
What other methods would those who disagree with this test use for testing the frequency or commonness of any particular usage? Nohat 03:34, 2004 Apr 22 (UTC)
I think we (quite rightly) moved on to a general discussion. Isn't the problem that we have no standardized convention how to determine popularity. Maybe we should establish that (for example) if both Google and Yahoo agree by a clear margin, then we should go with that? We should also define the parameters (e.g. only inlude English pages; I'm not sure GoogleFight does this...).
Oh, and when we change the spelling because the popularity is different, we must leave a note on the talk pages so that everyone knows what's going on. Also, changing a spelling means updating text, not only moving an article. Kokiri 10:15, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'm not a fan of the Google test, but we need some kind of convention. Otherwise we'll have this discussion time and time again. Kokiri 13:04, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC) P.S. can we move this discussion to somewhere else ?
1. Some say that Kiev is an English word. Since when and for how long? English writter Joseph Marshall that visited city called him Kiovia in his book in English language, year 1770. Communist Soviet Union had rule that all names should be written trough Russian form internationaly, like Tallin (not Estonian Tallinn), Kishinev (not moldovan Chisinau) and Kiev (not Ukrainian Kyiv). Communism colapsed and today native form are prefered as seen on British Embassy site in Kyiv. So I just wanted to show that Kiev is not English "standard" word for city during all times and for all-times (like Peking/ Beijing case).
2. As for Google counting method, there are other similar cases where present day native names are still less popular in English web BUT ARE USED ON WIKIPEDIA. Google English pages - Ho Chi Minh City 624,000 / Saigon 749,000 , Gdansk 272,000 / Danzig 280,000 , Kolkata 305,000 / Calcutta 940,000, Guangzhou 628,000 / Canton 3,070,000, Côte d'Ivoire 742,000 / Ivory Coast 2,580,000 and I don-t see them removed to "English web prefered name" rule.
3. I have already given my suggestion how to resolve conflict :
From what I have seen on Wikipedia "anglicized forms" that reflect names from (mostly) colonial times are redirected to "native or official forms" (in English or Roman alphabeth). In cases where anglicized forms are not similar/identical to (or taken from) languages of foreign rule period there is no problem (Rome, Munich, Copenhagen, Turin, Prague, Lisbon, Moscow, Athens etc... ). Not foreign/colonial but official/native forms are used for Gdansk/Danzig, Mumbai/Bombay, Kolkata/Calcutta, Guangzhou/Canton. Traditional english (and western) Peking is also redirected to official form Beijing. Also some governments don't want names of their countries to be translated to other language like Côte d'Ivoire, so Ivory Coast is also redirected to main page named by offical version in French..Official (new) names also - Belarus/White Russia or Byelorussia Myanmar/Burma. United Nations also promote native/offical forms, so my proposition is to add paragraph in Wikipedia: Naming_conventions_(use_English): " If country's government has adopted decraration on how its native names should be written in English or internationaly then these forms should be used for main page and other forms should redirect to them." + Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names) -- Inhvar 00:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
See also [18] Nohat 05:05, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)
We could use some more voices in the discussion currently at talk:Kiev. It's been argued that "Kiev" is appropriate because it returns more google hits, but that (Soviet-imposed) spelling is offensive to many Ukrainians. The Government of Ukraine has formally requested that their capitol be spelled "Kyiv" in English; a request that has been honored by the UN and the US State Department. While google hit counts are useful in many cases, I don't feel that we should allow them to enslave us when other important factors are involved. There is precedent for correctness overruling hit count, e.g. with Gdansk/Danzig and Mumbai/Bombay. Please chime in at talk:Kiev so we can reach a consensus one way or the other and get the article unprotected. Mkweise 17:28, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This issue seems to come up a lot. The "official" name is different than what everyone else calls it. Consider Mumbia vs Bombay , Kiev vs Kyiv, Makkah vs Mecca. I think we need to be consistent, and I think we need an official policy on this. →Raul654 17:36, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
Agreed with keeping Kiev. Many, if not places are different in English to their local name (think Munich vs Munchen). However, Myanmar is the accepted name for Burma now in the same way that Sri Lanka replaced Ceylon, and most up to date English reference materials seem to refer to Myanmar rather than Burma. Dainamo 11:18, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just to end this debate once and for all, I declare Wikipedia:Naming policy poll open for buisness. Everyone please vote there. →Raul654 04:17, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
If -- when the China declared that Peking was now Beijing, and the world accepted -- what is the problem with accepting, with respect, KYIV? The Russian name for the city was used all these years because Ukraine was a colony, a subjugated part of the Russian/Soviet empire, and the language, culture, history and everything else was perverted. At one time the language was even forbideen (Ems Ukaz). Now that the country is free, and still struggling to reclaim its identity and life (empires are so hard to lose), respect and let the people have their own geographical names, transliterated into English from the UKRAINIAN language. Lviv, Dnipro, Dnister, Kyiv. Why should this be such a difficult thing? Sri Lanka, Beijing.... you can learn, and respect.
"Most people using Kiev or any of the other controversial terms are probably completely unaware of any controversy". Exactly, and their don't wish to know anything about the controversy or have to learn a new spelling. I want to be clear that I'm happy to keep up with the times, and as the post below indicates, more and more people are using Kyiv. But for now, "Kiev" still outnumbers "Kyiv" by a ratio of more than 5 to 1. When that gets to less than 2 to 1, then I'll be willing to entertaining proposals to change it to Kyiv. Until then, the vast majority of usage is "Kiev", and we should reflect that. Nohat 21:35, 2004 Apr 25 (UTC)
I just noticed that the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv is starting to use that spelling. [19]. It hasn't moved the DNS spelling for the site yet and it doesn't look like it has filtered up to the State Dept. yet though. older ≠ wiser 21:23, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
OK, here some more evidence why we cannot rely on the Google Test as being the definitive test for naming disputes.
I don't think the evidence, even using this unreliable method, is quite so overwhelming anymore. older ≠ wiser 16:32, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
An addendum: Another reason I do not think the Google Test is appropriate as the definitive test for "current" usage is that Google also indexes a vast amount of historical documents. So the hit counts can not be taken to accurately represent current usage only, but rather a blending of current and historical usage. older ≠ wiser 16:38, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If you apply the same restrictions to your search for "Kyiv", you only get 300,000 hits, and the resulting ratio is 5.7 to 1. Nohat 16:48, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC)
I just turned 45 years old, and to celebrate I thought I'd remove "protection" from the Kiev and Kyiv articles :-) -- Uncle Ed 21:35, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, IMHO this is a big discussion about really nothing in substance. The real purpose of Wikipedia is to give people insight about things and concepts they may come across of. Therefore the article should use the most commonly used name, but state here that there are some other versions of the same geographic name out there. Let’s name the page “Kiev (aka Kyiv)” and give a short paragraph about the different versions of naming. This could be used as a standard for most of the geographic articles as pretty much every geographic name has multiple versions to it. In fact IT DOES NOT MATTER which name we use a primary -- as soon as there are shortcuts and people are able to find what they are looking for.
Also about argument of local usage – this is English version of Wikipedia, therefore I believe we should use the names that were historically adopted in English: Germany rather than Deuchland, Moscow rather than Moskvah etc., while still offering readers other versions of spelling and have a short paragraph on their historical and cultural context. The same would be absolutely true about places like Bombei/Mumbai, Beijing/Peking, Calcutta/Kolkata and many others. And I guess we should suggest some changes to naming policy as the Google test not always work.
And last but not least – as someone who lived most of my life in Kiev, I would say that even local population uses both versions commonly. I published the text of that “Resolution of the Ukrainian commission for legal terminology” at my UA Zone web site [24] long time ago as an example of how laughable could be an attempt of some local government to establish spelling standards in foreign language. In fact if Americans would try to tell us Ukrainians how we should spell the names of American cities in Ukrainian we would be insulted. -- Uazone 07:28, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC) ( Uazone)
I know the debate is settled, but just a thought...
If it's Gdansk today, it's Gdansk because it's a predominantly Polish city. To speak of Gdansk prior to 1945 is historically inaccurate in every way.
Now, with respect to the capital of (the) Ukraine. The fact that both Russia and Ukraine trace their history to Kievan Rus is a fact. It cannot be denied. It is correct in precisely the same way as to trace the both history of Austria and Hungary to the Austro-Hungarian empire. And yes, both Kievan Rus and the Austro-Hungarian empire have dates a statu condito.
Now: it remains a painful question for nationalists of both sides, but... the modern Ukrainian orthography was established in the nineteenth century. Prior to that, Ukrainian was an archaic one that preserved the old letter yat, usually latinized to ě. Which developed phonetically in different ways between Russian and Ukrainian. Thus Kiev was spelled something like Кіīьвъ, latinized Kiěv, in both languages (forgive the yat-approximation, it's not in the standard 8-bit encodings). And please don't tell me that's a Russian spelling. Remember: under the Russian Empire, written Ukrainian was not exactly encouraged. It's the Galicians, the Ukrainians under Austria-Hungary, who used that spelling in their newspapers and books.
The entire discussion could have been put on hold, if people's peculiar members were not forever engorged, by simply using the spelling Kiěv. I'm sure the intricacies of both the Ukrainian and the Russian vowels are irrelevant to reproduce exactly in English.
Be still, my throbbing tool.
I'm bringing this up again, because the current convention is wrong. If "most people" started spelling plural's with apostrophe's, would Wikipedia do it too?
All authorities are switching to using official spellings, like "Kyiv": anglophone diplomatic missions, atlases and dictionaries. By its nature, Wikipedia should be ahead of the curve, instead of bringing up the rear. This situation is just sad.
— Michael Z. 17:45, 2004 Sep 20 (UTC)
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