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Archive 1 |
Much too much vagueness here.
"There is some skepticism about the future prospects of the kibbutzim. Agricultural life is certainly not very attractive to many modern Israelis. In addition, the growing political instability of the region poses a long-term threat. Nevertheless, most observers contend that, in the near future at least, the kibbutz movement faces no serious danger."
Which observers are being so re-assuring? Do they have names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christofurio ( talk • contribs) 13:05, 26 August 2004 (UTC)
Can someone add an explanation of the term "shmutznik"-- origins, meanings, use etc.
shmutznik - a slang term for a member of Hashomer Hatzair
[1]
shmutznik = Hashomer Hatzair
AbuAmir 12:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
shmutznik is refer to the kibbutz members from Ha'shomer Ha'tzair movement. It's come from the German word 'shmutz' which mean 'dirt', hence it is became as a shame slang for those people. Usualy used by the other movments of the kibbutzes members to describe hashomer hatzair members. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.110.240.4 (
talk)
23:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I do not understand why there is no section containing explicit criticism of Kabbutzim. The article praises their virtues, but mentions nothing about the potential harm done by taking children away from parents and thwarting individual ambition and achievement. This thing reads like a Kubbutz advertisement.
There are many elements in the article that are either promotional or POV, such as the reference to "the Sten guns that won the war"!
There is nothing about the current military role of kibbutz - many of which are run by the army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 06:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The third paragraph of the section "Children" ends with the sentence:
"This is actually a lot more quality time for parents to spend with their kids than in other societies."
The supporting evidence for this statement is a reference to a document dated 1963. I feel that this sentence is not well supported by a document that is so old, given that the conclusion attempts to make a comparison with "other societies" which implies "other modern societies", and a document that is 50 years old, written at a time when most socieities were quite a bit different, is not good supporting evidence. -- I, as an anonymous commenter, added the preceding comments about the "Children" section on Tue Dec 17 2013.
Children no longer live seperately from their parents. The Scud missile threat during the first Gulf war put a final end to this system. For security reasons the children stayed with their parents for the duration of the war. At the end of the war the children carried on staying at home.
I thought it was possible/fashionable for non-Israeli non-Jewish youths to spend working time at a kibbutz as a learning experience on commonal life.
- Yes, many non-Israeli non-Jewish youths (18-30, although mostly students 18-22) spend an average of 3 months working on a Kibbutz. There is a problem with providing a social life on some remote Kibbutz and Volunteers go some way to improve the social atmosphere for the young members.
I heard that many young South Africans, Jewish or not, spent time on kibbutzes during the Apartheid years, becuase it was difficult to travel on a South African passport. Does anyone have information on this that they could include? -- Totorotroll ( talk) 15:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
There should be something about the use of Arab labor on kibbutz and debates on the issue, particularly in Kibbutz Artzi Federation kibbutzim where there was a debate in the 1950s about allowing Arabs to become members with a decision against. AndyL 17:45, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I just read it and found it rather informative, Good job. I think it could use more content regarding the day to day life in a kibbutz, as well as the social structure / hierarchy. Cheers, ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 17:54, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
http://www.anarchistcommunitarian.net/articles/kibbutz/samarkibb.html
http://www.ardom.co.il/heilot/samar/samar.htm
Ah, ok, thanks! ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 23:45, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This quote:
needs a reference, preferably something Russian and not from Israel.-- Wahoofive
It still should have some kind of attribution. -- Wahoofive 23:29, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another problem with this "In case any Jews made their way into the Russian capital city, in 1897 the Moscow Chief of Police offered a bounty for the capture of an illegal Jew equal to the capture of two burglars. (Dubnow, Vol. III, 15)". In 1897 the capital of Russia was St petersberg, not Moscow. Is this really correct?
There is also a problem with this quote: "During the Russo-Japanese War, many magistrates in Ukraine took advantage of the fact that Jewish men were away...". The period discussed seems to be the 1880's, but the link for the Russo-Japanese war says it took place in the years 1904-1905 (and is also discussed later in the text about the second aliyah). Anyone knows what caused this mistake and how to amend it? Querious ( talk) 20:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
In the following paragraph:
I removed the last sentence, which seems to add POV without adding any information. -- Wahoofive 23:07, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another statement that needs documentation:
-- Wahoofive 00:27, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Stalin was a schemer and his decision to support Israel's creation in 1948 may have happened for a myriad of reasons (he was also going a bit senile at the time, according to some, so his reasons may have not necessarily been logical). In any case, given that Stalin soon launched a massive anti-Zionist (and anti-Semitic) campaign in the Soviet Union that soon spread to the rest of the Soviet bloc in which Jews were accused of dual loyalites or just plain disloyalty and Zionists (real or suspected) were rounded up and tried .On the other hand, social democrats throughout western Europe and North America were generally quite supportive of Israel prior to the 1967 war and support remained pronounced among many social democrats at least until Likud took power in 1977. While you still can find some in the British Labour Party and Canada's NDP who are supportive of ZIonism today the numbers have greatly diminished over the past three decades and few, if any, hold Israel up today as some sort of socialist beacon. AndyL 16:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've had objections about one of these Israel templates before and it seems to me as if its placement and layout still hasn't improved. There are many templates for article series that are very good and helpful and {{israelis}} isn't a bad idea, but just like it's "Jewish Languages" counterpart it looks very cumbersome. Did article series template really meant to be this... rowdy? Considering this is now an FA, I must at least drop a hint about trying to improve its placement or design. Consider decreasing it in size, making it horizontal, and placing at the bottom. Like the {{Jewish languages}} it is taking up a lot of space for an interwiki template.
Peter Isotalo 08:22, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
"Kibbutzim have given Israel a wildly disproportionate share of its military leaders, intellectuals, and politicians." - disproportionate to what exactly? - Ta bu shi da yu 04:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
In this section, it sounds as if it was a widespread view that Kibbutzim create "mediocrity". In fact, it seems to be a fact that the part of Israel's intellectual, political, artistical people educated in a kibbutz is disproportionate. I found this validated in the passage cited above (section "Er..." on this page). Therefore, as it stands the section "psychological aspects" gives the wrong impression. It was never validated in a single study that Kibbutzim create mediocrity. The opposite, however, seems to be quite uncontroversial about sociologists. Maybe the cited passage should be moved there?
"part of one of the largest secular communal movements "
I admit I know very little about kibbutzes, but are we sure they can count as a secular movement? Something like this sounds like at least part of the driving force here would be closely associated with Judaism. How do we arrive at that categorisation?
Does anyone else think like half of this should be incorporated into an article on Eastern European Jews or something along those lines? Most of it has very little to do with kibbutz: simply stateing times were tough at various periods for Eastern European Jews and linking to the approperate articles on that subject would be better. – stewacide 00:24, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
Please see History of the kibbutz movement for those sections dealing with the pre-state and early state of Israel periods. There was a need to cut this article up into two segments because at over 60k it far exceeded the normal length for Wikipedia articles. Note: No content was removed in this division into two articles. Thanks. IZAK 17:38, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I like the idea of the history section very much... maybe it should go at the beginning of the article though, so that it provides a background? -- Totorotroll ( talk) 16:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Since there were obviously two parts to the article: history, and concept, but the article contents did not reflect this, I changed them accordingly. I haven't changed a single word, only made parts into subparts, and moved some things around. LeoDV 08:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed Zichron Yaakov from the article and replaced it with Rehovot and Gedera. Zichron was not a Bilu settlement but instead was founded by Jews from Romania who were affiliated with the Hovevei Zion movement. See he:ביל"ו and he:זכרון יעקב for confirmation. RCSB 15:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I saw no mention of co-operatives. How do they compare with kibbutzes?
Since 1999, the United Kibbutz Movement and the Kibbutz Artzi Movement are now united, why is this not in the article? -- Shuki 18:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The following line:
Artzi kibbutzim were also more devoted to equality of the sexes than other kibbutzim. A 1920s, 1930s era kibbutz woman would call her husband ishi – "My man" – rather than the usual Hebrew word, ba'ali,, which literally means "My master."
implies that the Hebrew word for husband holds a different connotation than it does in other languages. The American English Dictionary offers the following etymology of the word husband in English:
ORIGIN late Old English (in the senses [male head of a household] and [manager, steward] ), from Old Norse húsbóndi ‘master of a house,’ from hús ‘house’ + bóndi ‘occupier and tiller of the soil.’ The original sense of the verb was [till, cultivate.]
Could anyone offer a revision to this sentence that would help relativize this? Jadorno 00:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I found this article http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Kibbutz. Anybody else notice any striking similarities between specific sentances in both the wiki and reference.com page?
Example:
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קיבוץ; plural: kibbutzim: קיבוצים, "gathering" or "together") is an Israeli collective intentional community. Although other countries have had communal enterprises, in no other country have voluntary collective communities played as important a role as the kibbutzim in Israel. Their importance can be traced to the creation of the Israeli state, and continue to the present day. (reference.com)
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קיבוץ; plural: kibbutzim: קיבוצים, "gathering" or "together") is an Israeli collective intentional community. Although other countries have had communal enterprises, in no other country have voluntary collective communities played as important a role as the kibbutzim in Israel. Their importance can be traced to the creation of the Israeli state, and continue to the present day. (wikipedia.org)
The concern is that reference.com was not referenced in the article.
Which is correct? Or are they both, somehow? :
-- Woozle 20:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I came to this article wondering the Kibbutz population and found no answer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.57 ( talk) 23:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
"...the Russian autocracy allowed and encouraged its discontented peasants to take out their frustrations on their Jewish neighbors."
This text is just too partial... I am sure that "take frustrations on somebody" can actually be translated into rational basis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.196.125.95 ( talk) 23:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe the Simpson report notes that outside of Israel, the Zionists were determined to argue that they were going to live in harmony with the Arabs, but inside of Palestine the policy was to exclude Arabs, except in the older P.I.C.A. colonies. Or perhaps I'm making a faulty assumption that colonies were kibbutz? Mulp 00:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I've had a go at editing the first half of the article - just neatening some of the sentences etc to read better. (Note: content has NOT been altered). i'll do the rest of it asap but also some of the info needs re-organising into subject paragraphs and sections, and sorting these out may mean a more substantial re-org. As it is, its a bit random and scattered, with some short paras inserted any old where. If someone else wants to take it on or help out, please do! Plutonium27 ( talk) 15:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC) (Ramat Ha'Kovesh, '85)
I really think this article is close to being GA - what is holding it back is the referencing. If anyone has time and can do this, I really do think it is close. Flymeoutofhere ( talk) 18:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Much of this article reads like a neo-liberal attack-piece against collectivism.
I'm new to this whole everyone's-a-historian thing but I'd like to point out something I think is missing from the "The change process in the kibbutzim" section.
One significant change in kibbutzim in the last decade is the growth of urban kibbutzim. In an attempt to renew the kibbutz movement, there are currently well over 1,000 young Israelis living in collective communities primarily concentrated around "Development Towns" ( [2]) and urban centers.
These collective communities are also referred to as Kvutsot (from the Hebrew for "group"). Often a number of smaller Kvutsot are organized together as one Kibbutz.
Almost all of these Kvutsot focus their skills and time toward educational work with youth from the entire range of Israeli society. The idea is that the old model of Kibbutz did the necessary work of establishing the young society and that a new model is needed to do the necessary work of strengthening and developing today's society.
I'm admittedly biased on this topic so for now I won't attempt to write an actual entry, but I'm willing to if people agree that it's important. There have been a number of articles about this in the Israeli press, I can search for these if asked.
A Wikipedia reference: [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.142.63 ( talk) 03:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I find this section to be difficult to understand:
With a changing of the generations in the kibbutzim societies, several wide changes occurred in the structure and culture of the kibbutzim. In general, the process could be described in which a significantly weakening happened to the different communal characteristic. With time, the kibbutz members’ sense of identification with the kibbutz and its goals significantly decreased. This process originated both from personal frustrations among the kibbutz members which development as a result of internal processes which happened in the kibbutz, and from the growing stratification and inequality of kibbutz society because of the capitalistic cultures of inter-kibbutz organizations headed by kibbutz elite members and capitalistic cultures adopted by many kibbutz factory managers who followed the lead of the former elite.[11] In addition, over the years some of the kibbutz members made professional careers outside the kibbutz and followed the norms of capitalist society and much like the two former elites also accumulated power, privileges, prestige and other capitals by which some of them or the former elites ruled over the kibbutzim and made their democracy largely ineffective [12] As part of this process, remoteness was created between the individual and basic values of the kibbutz. This weakening resulted in the breach of the balance which existed between the individual values and the values of the kibbutz. This gap was reflected also in with motivation problems at work.
For some reason the history of this article between the following points is blank.
from: 11:18, 8 January 2005 to: 21:27, 16 May 2005.
this includes the FA markers in {{ ArticleHistory}}. Does anyone else notice this? DVD 02:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Read the article Kubutz and Shuruk. Kubutz is called "kibutz" in some grammars in English. See, for example Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, §8c. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 12:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
This article is in terrible shape. The English is poor and most of the article is unsourced OR. Instead of spending your time adding needless headings at the top of the page and deleting photos, I would urge you all to work on fixing up this mess.-- Gilabrand ( talk) 07:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
What's the difference in a Kfar, as in Kfar Truman, and kibbutz? — Rlevse • Talk • 10:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I feel this section needs cleaned up to be more in line Wiki policy WP:EL. I have deleted a couple of links and move a book reference to the "Further Reading" section. Do other editors feel this section need improvement? -- BwB ( talk) 08:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
http://www.ravennakibbutz.org/blog/stories/2009/04/new-kibbutz-movement
shoudl be added in better. Maybe there is more in other places?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.96.60 ( talk) 21:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't think "Kvutzat Degania" translates as "Wheat of God". I think an acceptable translation would be "Team of Wheat Growers" (generically, Team of Farmers). There is no religious reference here. 193.136.157.71 ( talk) 12:31, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
The Kibbutz Meuchad and Kibbutz Artzi manaced Ben-Gurion's dominance of Yishuv politics in the 1940s, but they failed gaining wide public support in Israeli elections ever since 1949 because of reverence of Stalin's dictatorship which most Israelis denounced.[26]
Not sure if that is managed or menaced or what. Needs to be fixed.
Khallus Maximus ( talk) 08:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Is the word "thhirants" a typo? There is no definition anywhere that I can find - lots of repetitions of the sentence around the net. What is "thhirants" ?
"History
The first kibbutzim
Bilu'im, forerunners of thhirants went to the United States, but a minority went to Palestine. It was this generation that would include founders of the kibbutzim."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz
75.10.107.89 ( talk) 23:04, 26 May 2012 (UTC) Becky Lindroos (no link, no copyright considerations - just a question)
"Kibbutzim began as utopian communities..."
Seriously? Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this statement? 212.250.138.33 ( talk) 17:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
The lede says, "in 2010, Kibbutz Sasa, containing some 200 members, generated $850 million in annual revenue". That's a remarkable $4.25 million per member. Are they receiving a large income? If not, what is being done with the money? 174.24.42.46 ( talk) 04:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The "Children" section currently says, "The parental tendency is to view the child as a personal possession and to dominate them." It's not a wuote, there is no source cited, and it seems presumptuous, biased and inaccurate. The "Child-rearing" subheading also repeats a lot of the same information as the "Children" heading, and it's very wordy and rambling. Sadiemonster ( talk) 13:56, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Much too much vagueness here.
"There is some skepticism about the future prospects of the kibbutzim. Agricultural life is certainly not very attractive to many modern Israelis. In addition, the growing political instability of the region poses a long-term threat. Nevertheless, most observers contend that, in the near future at least, the kibbutz movement faces no serious danger."
Which observers are being so re-assuring? Do they have names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christofurio ( talk • contribs) 13:05, 26 August 2004 (UTC)
Can someone add an explanation of the term "shmutznik"-- origins, meanings, use etc.
shmutznik - a slang term for a member of Hashomer Hatzair
[1]
shmutznik = Hashomer Hatzair
AbuAmir 12:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
shmutznik is refer to the kibbutz members from Ha'shomer Ha'tzair movement. It's come from the German word 'shmutz' which mean 'dirt', hence it is became as a shame slang for those people. Usualy used by the other movments of the kibbutzes members to describe hashomer hatzair members. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.110.240.4 (
talk)
23:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I do not understand why there is no section containing explicit criticism of Kabbutzim. The article praises their virtues, but mentions nothing about the potential harm done by taking children away from parents and thwarting individual ambition and achievement. This thing reads like a Kubbutz advertisement.
There are many elements in the article that are either promotional or POV, such as the reference to "the Sten guns that won the war"!
There is nothing about the current military role of kibbutz - many of which are run by the army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 06:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The third paragraph of the section "Children" ends with the sentence:
"This is actually a lot more quality time for parents to spend with their kids than in other societies."
The supporting evidence for this statement is a reference to a document dated 1963. I feel that this sentence is not well supported by a document that is so old, given that the conclusion attempts to make a comparison with "other societies" which implies "other modern societies", and a document that is 50 years old, written at a time when most socieities were quite a bit different, is not good supporting evidence. -- I, as an anonymous commenter, added the preceding comments about the "Children" section on Tue Dec 17 2013.
Children no longer live seperately from their parents. The Scud missile threat during the first Gulf war put a final end to this system. For security reasons the children stayed with their parents for the duration of the war. At the end of the war the children carried on staying at home.
I thought it was possible/fashionable for non-Israeli non-Jewish youths to spend working time at a kibbutz as a learning experience on commonal life.
- Yes, many non-Israeli non-Jewish youths (18-30, although mostly students 18-22) spend an average of 3 months working on a Kibbutz. There is a problem with providing a social life on some remote Kibbutz and Volunteers go some way to improve the social atmosphere for the young members.
I heard that many young South Africans, Jewish or not, spent time on kibbutzes during the Apartheid years, becuase it was difficult to travel on a South African passport. Does anyone have information on this that they could include? -- Totorotroll ( talk) 15:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
There should be something about the use of Arab labor on kibbutz and debates on the issue, particularly in Kibbutz Artzi Federation kibbutzim where there was a debate in the 1950s about allowing Arabs to become members with a decision against. AndyL 17:45, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I just read it and found it rather informative, Good job. I think it could use more content regarding the day to day life in a kibbutz, as well as the social structure / hierarchy. Cheers, ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 17:54, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
http://www.anarchistcommunitarian.net/articles/kibbutz/samarkibb.html
http://www.ardom.co.il/heilot/samar/samar.htm
Ah, ok, thanks! ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 23:45, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This quote:
needs a reference, preferably something Russian and not from Israel.-- Wahoofive
It still should have some kind of attribution. -- Wahoofive 23:29, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another problem with this "In case any Jews made their way into the Russian capital city, in 1897 the Moscow Chief of Police offered a bounty for the capture of an illegal Jew equal to the capture of two burglars. (Dubnow, Vol. III, 15)". In 1897 the capital of Russia was St petersberg, not Moscow. Is this really correct?
There is also a problem with this quote: "During the Russo-Japanese War, many magistrates in Ukraine took advantage of the fact that Jewish men were away...". The period discussed seems to be the 1880's, but the link for the Russo-Japanese war says it took place in the years 1904-1905 (and is also discussed later in the text about the second aliyah). Anyone knows what caused this mistake and how to amend it? Querious ( talk) 20:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
In the following paragraph:
I removed the last sentence, which seems to add POV without adding any information. -- Wahoofive 23:07, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another statement that needs documentation:
-- Wahoofive 00:27, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Stalin was a schemer and his decision to support Israel's creation in 1948 may have happened for a myriad of reasons (he was also going a bit senile at the time, according to some, so his reasons may have not necessarily been logical). In any case, given that Stalin soon launched a massive anti-Zionist (and anti-Semitic) campaign in the Soviet Union that soon spread to the rest of the Soviet bloc in which Jews were accused of dual loyalites or just plain disloyalty and Zionists (real or suspected) were rounded up and tried .On the other hand, social democrats throughout western Europe and North America were generally quite supportive of Israel prior to the 1967 war and support remained pronounced among many social democrats at least until Likud took power in 1977. While you still can find some in the British Labour Party and Canada's NDP who are supportive of ZIonism today the numbers have greatly diminished over the past three decades and few, if any, hold Israel up today as some sort of socialist beacon. AndyL 16:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've had objections about one of these Israel templates before and it seems to me as if its placement and layout still hasn't improved. There are many templates for article series that are very good and helpful and {{israelis}} isn't a bad idea, but just like it's "Jewish Languages" counterpart it looks very cumbersome. Did article series template really meant to be this... rowdy? Considering this is now an FA, I must at least drop a hint about trying to improve its placement or design. Consider decreasing it in size, making it horizontal, and placing at the bottom. Like the {{Jewish languages}} it is taking up a lot of space for an interwiki template.
Peter Isotalo 08:22, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
"Kibbutzim have given Israel a wildly disproportionate share of its military leaders, intellectuals, and politicians." - disproportionate to what exactly? - Ta bu shi da yu 04:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
In this section, it sounds as if it was a widespread view that Kibbutzim create "mediocrity". In fact, it seems to be a fact that the part of Israel's intellectual, political, artistical people educated in a kibbutz is disproportionate. I found this validated in the passage cited above (section "Er..." on this page). Therefore, as it stands the section "psychological aspects" gives the wrong impression. It was never validated in a single study that Kibbutzim create mediocrity. The opposite, however, seems to be quite uncontroversial about sociologists. Maybe the cited passage should be moved there?
"part of one of the largest secular communal movements "
I admit I know very little about kibbutzes, but are we sure they can count as a secular movement? Something like this sounds like at least part of the driving force here would be closely associated with Judaism. How do we arrive at that categorisation?
Does anyone else think like half of this should be incorporated into an article on Eastern European Jews or something along those lines? Most of it has very little to do with kibbutz: simply stateing times were tough at various periods for Eastern European Jews and linking to the approperate articles on that subject would be better. – stewacide 00:24, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
Please see History of the kibbutz movement for those sections dealing with the pre-state and early state of Israel periods. There was a need to cut this article up into two segments because at over 60k it far exceeded the normal length for Wikipedia articles. Note: No content was removed in this division into two articles. Thanks. IZAK 17:38, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I like the idea of the history section very much... maybe it should go at the beginning of the article though, so that it provides a background? -- Totorotroll ( talk) 16:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Since there were obviously two parts to the article: history, and concept, but the article contents did not reflect this, I changed them accordingly. I haven't changed a single word, only made parts into subparts, and moved some things around. LeoDV 08:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed Zichron Yaakov from the article and replaced it with Rehovot and Gedera. Zichron was not a Bilu settlement but instead was founded by Jews from Romania who were affiliated with the Hovevei Zion movement. See he:ביל"ו and he:זכרון יעקב for confirmation. RCSB 15:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I saw no mention of co-operatives. How do they compare with kibbutzes?
Since 1999, the United Kibbutz Movement and the Kibbutz Artzi Movement are now united, why is this not in the article? -- Shuki 18:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The following line:
Artzi kibbutzim were also more devoted to equality of the sexes than other kibbutzim. A 1920s, 1930s era kibbutz woman would call her husband ishi – "My man" – rather than the usual Hebrew word, ba'ali,, which literally means "My master."
implies that the Hebrew word for husband holds a different connotation than it does in other languages. The American English Dictionary offers the following etymology of the word husband in English:
ORIGIN late Old English (in the senses [male head of a household] and [manager, steward] ), from Old Norse húsbóndi ‘master of a house,’ from hús ‘house’ + bóndi ‘occupier and tiller of the soil.’ The original sense of the verb was [till, cultivate.]
Could anyone offer a revision to this sentence that would help relativize this? Jadorno 00:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I found this article http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Kibbutz. Anybody else notice any striking similarities between specific sentances in both the wiki and reference.com page?
Example:
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קיבוץ; plural: kibbutzim: קיבוצים, "gathering" or "together") is an Israeli collective intentional community. Although other countries have had communal enterprises, in no other country have voluntary collective communities played as important a role as the kibbutzim in Israel. Their importance can be traced to the creation of the Israeli state, and continue to the present day. (reference.com)
A kibbutz (Hebrew: קיבוץ; plural: kibbutzim: קיבוצים, "gathering" or "together") is an Israeli collective intentional community. Although other countries have had communal enterprises, in no other country have voluntary collective communities played as important a role as the kibbutzim in Israel. Their importance can be traced to the creation of the Israeli state, and continue to the present day. (wikipedia.org)
The concern is that reference.com was not referenced in the article.
Which is correct? Or are they both, somehow? :
-- Woozle 20:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I came to this article wondering the Kibbutz population and found no answer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.57 ( talk) 23:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
"...the Russian autocracy allowed and encouraged its discontented peasants to take out their frustrations on their Jewish neighbors."
This text is just too partial... I am sure that "take frustrations on somebody" can actually be translated into rational basis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.196.125.95 ( talk) 23:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe the Simpson report notes that outside of Israel, the Zionists were determined to argue that they were going to live in harmony with the Arabs, but inside of Palestine the policy was to exclude Arabs, except in the older P.I.C.A. colonies. Or perhaps I'm making a faulty assumption that colonies were kibbutz? Mulp 00:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I've had a go at editing the first half of the article - just neatening some of the sentences etc to read better. (Note: content has NOT been altered). i'll do the rest of it asap but also some of the info needs re-organising into subject paragraphs and sections, and sorting these out may mean a more substantial re-org. As it is, its a bit random and scattered, with some short paras inserted any old where. If someone else wants to take it on or help out, please do! Plutonium27 ( talk) 15:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC) (Ramat Ha'Kovesh, '85)
I really think this article is close to being GA - what is holding it back is the referencing. If anyone has time and can do this, I really do think it is close. Flymeoutofhere ( talk) 18:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Much of this article reads like a neo-liberal attack-piece against collectivism.
I'm new to this whole everyone's-a-historian thing but I'd like to point out something I think is missing from the "The change process in the kibbutzim" section.
One significant change in kibbutzim in the last decade is the growth of urban kibbutzim. In an attempt to renew the kibbutz movement, there are currently well over 1,000 young Israelis living in collective communities primarily concentrated around "Development Towns" ( [2]) and urban centers.
These collective communities are also referred to as Kvutsot (from the Hebrew for "group"). Often a number of smaller Kvutsot are organized together as one Kibbutz.
Almost all of these Kvutsot focus their skills and time toward educational work with youth from the entire range of Israeli society. The idea is that the old model of Kibbutz did the necessary work of establishing the young society and that a new model is needed to do the necessary work of strengthening and developing today's society.
I'm admittedly biased on this topic so for now I won't attempt to write an actual entry, but I'm willing to if people agree that it's important. There have been a number of articles about this in the Israeli press, I can search for these if asked.
A Wikipedia reference: [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.142.63 ( talk) 03:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I find this section to be difficult to understand:
With a changing of the generations in the kibbutzim societies, several wide changes occurred in the structure and culture of the kibbutzim. In general, the process could be described in which a significantly weakening happened to the different communal characteristic. With time, the kibbutz members’ sense of identification with the kibbutz and its goals significantly decreased. This process originated both from personal frustrations among the kibbutz members which development as a result of internal processes which happened in the kibbutz, and from the growing stratification and inequality of kibbutz society because of the capitalistic cultures of inter-kibbutz organizations headed by kibbutz elite members and capitalistic cultures adopted by many kibbutz factory managers who followed the lead of the former elite.[11] In addition, over the years some of the kibbutz members made professional careers outside the kibbutz and followed the norms of capitalist society and much like the two former elites also accumulated power, privileges, prestige and other capitals by which some of them or the former elites ruled over the kibbutzim and made their democracy largely ineffective [12] As part of this process, remoteness was created between the individual and basic values of the kibbutz. This weakening resulted in the breach of the balance which existed between the individual values and the values of the kibbutz. This gap was reflected also in with motivation problems at work.
For some reason the history of this article between the following points is blank.
from: 11:18, 8 January 2005 to: 21:27, 16 May 2005.
this includes the FA markers in {{ ArticleHistory}}. Does anyone else notice this? DVD 02:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Read the article Kubutz and Shuruk. Kubutz is called "kibutz" in some grammars in English. See, for example Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, §8c. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 12:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
This article is in terrible shape. The English is poor and most of the article is unsourced OR. Instead of spending your time adding needless headings at the top of the page and deleting photos, I would urge you all to work on fixing up this mess.-- Gilabrand ( talk) 07:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
What's the difference in a Kfar, as in Kfar Truman, and kibbutz? — Rlevse • Talk • 10:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I feel this section needs cleaned up to be more in line Wiki policy WP:EL. I have deleted a couple of links and move a book reference to the "Further Reading" section. Do other editors feel this section need improvement? -- BwB ( talk) 08:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
http://www.ravennakibbutz.org/blog/stories/2009/04/new-kibbutz-movement
shoudl be added in better. Maybe there is more in other places?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.96.60 ( talk) 21:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't think "Kvutzat Degania" translates as "Wheat of God". I think an acceptable translation would be "Team of Wheat Growers" (generically, Team of Farmers). There is no religious reference here. 193.136.157.71 ( talk) 12:31, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
The Kibbutz Meuchad and Kibbutz Artzi manaced Ben-Gurion's dominance of Yishuv politics in the 1940s, but they failed gaining wide public support in Israeli elections ever since 1949 because of reverence of Stalin's dictatorship which most Israelis denounced.[26]
Not sure if that is managed or menaced or what. Needs to be fixed.
Khallus Maximus ( talk) 08:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Is the word "thhirants" a typo? There is no definition anywhere that I can find - lots of repetitions of the sentence around the net. What is "thhirants" ?
"History
The first kibbutzim
Bilu'im, forerunners of thhirants went to the United States, but a minority went to Palestine. It was this generation that would include founders of the kibbutzim."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz
75.10.107.89 ( talk) 23:04, 26 May 2012 (UTC) Becky Lindroos (no link, no copyright considerations - just a question)
"Kibbutzim began as utopian communities..."
Seriously? Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this statement? 212.250.138.33 ( talk) 17:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
The lede says, "in 2010, Kibbutz Sasa, containing some 200 members, generated $850 million in annual revenue". That's a remarkable $4.25 million per member. Are they receiving a large income? If not, what is being done with the money? 174.24.42.46 ( talk) 04:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The "Children" section currently says, "The parental tendency is to view the child as a personal possession and to dominate them." It's not a wuote, there is no source cited, and it seems presumptuous, biased and inaccurate. The "Child-rearing" subheading also repeats a lot of the same information as the "Children" heading, and it's very wordy and rambling. Sadiemonster ( talk) 13:56, 9 August 2015 (UTC)