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The Khojaly massacre is currently recognized by every single sovereign nation in the world - this was the basis for deleting the main article. There is no need for recognizing historical facts when they're not denied. The commemoration section has been kept. -- 92slim ( talk) 03:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
This journalist takes almost half of the article, despite the fact that he was neither a witness (he was a teenager back when these events took place), nor conducted any investigation on the matter, as evidenced by the European Court of Human Rights. Moreover, in his recent TV interviews he clearly states that he never accused Azerbaijanis of having committed this crime, and says that it was the Armenians who committed a genocide in Khojaly. This is his 2014 interview in Azerbaijani to ANS TV [1] I suggest to completely remove any reference to him, because they add no useful information. Any information about his views on the subject are better reflected in the article about him. Grand master 21:02, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
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Grandmaster, https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Khojaly_Massacre&type=revision&diff=886364450&oldid=886363548 Such a wholesale reversal is completely unjustified. If you have issues with some edits please explain them here. 21:02, 5 March 2019 (UTC) 92.28.129.128 ( talk)
The number of casualties and the people responsible for the massacre are sourced with reliable sources. Why is there a need to include “according to the Azerbaijani side”? Rodrigo Valequez( 🗣) 18:53, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I want to add the "Category:Ethnic cleansing in Asia" to the article. Aksar ( talk) 20:51, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
@
El Greekos: Page 5 of
1994 HRW report says this exact sentence which is quoted in the article as well: While it is widely accepted that at least 200 Azeris were killed, as many as 500-1,000 may have died.
Please stop edit warring. —
CuriousGolden
(T·
C)
17:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
After checking the article's history, it looks like the current back-and-forth mess in the lead started with this edit by the now-blocked account. Please either discuss or desist. Since that original reverter has been blocked for battleground attitude, I'll revert otherwise. Brandmeister talk 14:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
This is listed as a "B-class" article. The criteria includes that "Readers are not left wanting" and the article does not fully comply with #1 (quote not cited), #3, and #4. The "External links" section is bloated with 13 entries that does not comply with the guidelines to include WP:ELPOINTS as well as Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#LINK. -- Otr500 ( talk) 14:57, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
The "Massacre" section includes unsourced "According to the Memorial". This content is controversial with one party reportedly making one claim and denied by another party. There is also: "...the armed people inside the refugee column did exchange gunfire with Armenian outposts, but on each occasion, the fire was opened first from the Armenian side." It seems strange that the refugees did not exchange gunfire yet the end of the sentence contains "on each occasion, the fire was opened first from the Armenian side." At any rate the content needs sourcing or removing. Considering this and the above issues the article is reassessed on the WikiProject Military history to "C-class". -- Otr500 ( talk) 14:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Massacres of Armenians by Azerbaijanis/Azerbaijani military forces should be mentioned in this article to provide unbiased information and additionally to provide necessary background information. There were numerous massacres of ethnic Armenians leading up to Khojaly (Sumgait, Baku, Khirovabad, Operation Ring) and also 6 weeks afterwards (Maraga). The lack of references to these atrocities paints an incomplete picture of what was going on in the region in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Lack of references to these massacres and pogroms is suggestive of a political bias in this article. I included references to these massacres yesterday. Wikipedia has a duty to be unbiased, apolitical, and provide as much legitimate information as possible. The provided justification for reversion does not make sense as it was claimed to mention these is presenting a bias. I would argue that NOT presenting these massacres against Armenian civilians creates and perpetuates a bias. I am going to restore the edits that I made before the reversion. Any exceptions with this can be discussed here. Preservedmoose ( talk) 16:36, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
This tragedy must be names as Genocide, why you only consider Armenian parts claims?this is unbiased approach Tegmen 29 ( talk) 15:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Beshogur you restored Motive: Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in the infobox (delated by myself as unsourced claim) and then added Persecution of Azerbaijanis category to the article. What WP:RS do support your claim? Are you saying it is a mainstream view that 1) it was specifically "Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment" that motivated Armenians and CIS forces to open fire and that 2) opening fire and the previous blockade by Armenians was organised, intentional "persecution of Azerbaijanis" rather than the sad realities of the bloody war? Best wishes, --Armatura ( talk) 20:25, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
The onus is on you, Beshogur, to prove that it was specifically due to anti Azerbaijani sentiment and that it constituted persecution on ethnic grounds, per Wikipedia:VERIFY. Neither my nor your opinion counts, reliable sources should say what you put in Wikipedia, with a strong concensus for such incriminating claims. De Waal, for example, who is the most cited source in AA topic, says that the fire on civilians was not planned or deliberate. Same for other incidents in 1992 / First NK war - wars frequently involve civilian deaths (there is hardly a single large scale war without civilian deaths, sadly) , but you need hard evidence to say those deaths are due to ethnic hatred / intolerance or form of ethnic persecution --Armatura ( talk) 07:59, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
troops of the 366th CIS regiment (who were not apparently acting on orders from their commanders) deliberately disregarded this customary law restraint on attacks. As I told, this is not a " collateral damage", but a massacre. even it is spontaneously not "planned". Beshogur ( talk) 17:43, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster, do you have a written source that proves what you say he says in the YouTube video here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjk5dnn-PQ Editors in English wikipedia not proficient in Azerbaijani have not direct way of verifying what is or is not said in a Azerbaijani video. Thanks. --Armatura ( talk) 12:42, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
And this applies to YT as well. You can check the other guideline: ' Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.219.164.131 ( talk) 15:27, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Khojaly massacre has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove dead link Thprfssnl ( talk) 03:12, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
I don't think statement of Fatullayev should be restored to the article. This journalist's story takes large space in the article, despite the fact that he was neither a witness (he was a teenager back when these events took place), nor conducted any investigation on the matter, as evidenced by the European Court of Human Rights. Moreover, in his recent TV interviews he clearly states that he never accused Azerbaijanis of having committed this crime, and says that it was the Armenians who committed (in his words) a genocide in Khojaly. This is his 2014 interview in Azerbaijani to ANS TV [6] His case has no direct relevance to the massacre, and his varying opinions do not add any useful information. Any information about his views on the subject are better reflected in the article about him. Grand master 08:55, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
I reverted to invite for discussion– We don't revert for the sake of discussing. You can discuss without doing reverts, as undue reverts are disruptive. You have to show a valid reason for reverting. And your reasoning is far from revert worthy and still unclear. If "X" is in the article then "Y" should also be isn't a valid reason to remove "X". You're doing whataboutism actually (again), which is a logical fallacy. This is noway near a good reason to remove well sourced information, and indeed your revert is disruptive. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 11:17, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is an optional method of seeking consensus. This process is not mandated by Wikipedia policy, but it can be useful for identifying objections, keeping discussion moving forward and helping to break deadlocks. In other situations, you may have better success with alternatives to this approach. Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see any reversion as a challenge, so be considerate and patient.
Well, your arguments are so far weak and hence failed to persuade me. Try persuading others. I’m not interested in personal interpretations of any editor, including yours. Efforts of erasing notable and verifiable material from Wikipedia are undue for me. Good day. --Armatura ( talk) 14:24, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
The Court also noted that "The Karabakh Diary" did not constitute a piece of investigative journalism focusing specifically on the Khojaly events and considered that Fatullayev's statements about these events were made rather in passing, parallel to the main theme of the article. I recommend that we keep only first three paragraphs with some copyedit, down to the European Court of Human Rights decision. The rest belongs to the Eynulla Fatullayev article and is more like flogging of a dead horse. Brandmeister talk 18:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Khojaly massacre has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"though as many as 500-1,000 may have died", should be "though as many as 500–1,000 may have died", utilizing en dash. 85.132.96.210 ( talk) 10:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Howdy - Worth adding a simple link to BTR (vehicle) for the unexplained acronym in the first para describing the limited equipment available to the defenders. 74.96.123.134 ( talk) 16:19, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
The Khojaly massacre is currently recognized by every single sovereign nation in the world - this was the basis for deleting the main article. There is no need for recognizing historical facts when they're not denied. The commemoration section has been kept. -- 92slim ( talk) 03:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
This journalist takes almost half of the article, despite the fact that he was neither a witness (he was a teenager back when these events took place), nor conducted any investigation on the matter, as evidenced by the European Court of Human Rights. Moreover, in his recent TV interviews he clearly states that he never accused Azerbaijanis of having committed this crime, and says that it was the Armenians who committed a genocide in Khojaly. This is his 2014 interview in Azerbaijani to ANS TV [1] I suggest to completely remove any reference to him, because they add no useful information. Any information about his views on the subject are better reflected in the article about him. Grand master 21:02, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
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Grandmaster, https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Khojaly_Massacre&type=revision&diff=886364450&oldid=886363548 Such a wholesale reversal is completely unjustified. If you have issues with some edits please explain them here. 21:02, 5 March 2019 (UTC) 92.28.129.128 ( talk)
The number of casualties and the people responsible for the massacre are sourced with reliable sources. Why is there a need to include “according to the Azerbaijani side”? Rodrigo Valequez( 🗣) 18:53, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I want to add the "Category:Ethnic cleansing in Asia" to the article. Aksar ( talk) 20:51, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
@
El Greekos: Page 5 of
1994 HRW report says this exact sentence which is quoted in the article as well: While it is widely accepted that at least 200 Azeris were killed, as many as 500-1,000 may have died.
Please stop edit warring. —
CuriousGolden
(T·
C)
17:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
After checking the article's history, it looks like the current back-and-forth mess in the lead started with this edit by the now-blocked account. Please either discuss or desist. Since that original reverter has been blocked for battleground attitude, I'll revert otherwise. Brandmeister talk 14:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
This is listed as a "B-class" article. The criteria includes that "Readers are not left wanting" and the article does not fully comply with #1 (quote not cited), #3, and #4. The "External links" section is bloated with 13 entries that does not comply with the guidelines to include WP:ELPOINTS as well as Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#LINK. -- Otr500 ( talk) 14:57, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
The "Massacre" section includes unsourced "According to the Memorial". This content is controversial with one party reportedly making one claim and denied by another party. There is also: "...the armed people inside the refugee column did exchange gunfire with Armenian outposts, but on each occasion, the fire was opened first from the Armenian side." It seems strange that the refugees did not exchange gunfire yet the end of the sentence contains "on each occasion, the fire was opened first from the Armenian side." At any rate the content needs sourcing or removing. Considering this and the above issues the article is reassessed on the WikiProject Military history to "C-class". -- Otr500 ( talk) 14:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Massacres of Armenians by Azerbaijanis/Azerbaijani military forces should be mentioned in this article to provide unbiased information and additionally to provide necessary background information. There were numerous massacres of ethnic Armenians leading up to Khojaly (Sumgait, Baku, Khirovabad, Operation Ring) and also 6 weeks afterwards (Maraga). The lack of references to these atrocities paints an incomplete picture of what was going on in the region in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Lack of references to these massacres and pogroms is suggestive of a political bias in this article. I included references to these massacres yesterday. Wikipedia has a duty to be unbiased, apolitical, and provide as much legitimate information as possible. The provided justification for reversion does not make sense as it was claimed to mention these is presenting a bias. I would argue that NOT presenting these massacres against Armenian civilians creates and perpetuates a bias. I am going to restore the edits that I made before the reversion. Any exceptions with this can be discussed here. Preservedmoose ( talk) 16:36, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
This tragedy must be names as Genocide, why you only consider Armenian parts claims?this is unbiased approach Tegmen 29 ( talk) 15:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Beshogur you restored Motive: Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in the infobox (delated by myself as unsourced claim) and then added Persecution of Azerbaijanis category to the article. What WP:RS do support your claim? Are you saying it is a mainstream view that 1) it was specifically "Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment" that motivated Armenians and CIS forces to open fire and that 2) opening fire and the previous blockade by Armenians was organised, intentional "persecution of Azerbaijanis" rather than the sad realities of the bloody war? Best wishes, --Armatura ( talk) 20:25, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
The onus is on you, Beshogur, to prove that it was specifically due to anti Azerbaijani sentiment and that it constituted persecution on ethnic grounds, per Wikipedia:VERIFY. Neither my nor your opinion counts, reliable sources should say what you put in Wikipedia, with a strong concensus for such incriminating claims. De Waal, for example, who is the most cited source in AA topic, says that the fire on civilians was not planned or deliberate. Same for other incidents in 1992 / First NK war - wars frequently involve civilian deaths (there is hardly a single large scale war without civilian deaths, sadly) , but you need hard evidence to say those deaths are due to ethnic hatred / intolerance or form of ethnic persecution --Armatura ( talk) 07:59, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
troops of the 366th CIS regiment (who were not apparently acting on orders from their commanders) deliberately disregarded this customary law restraint on attacks. As I told, this is not a " collateral damage", but a massacre. even it is spontaneously not "planned". Beshogur ( talk) 17:43, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Grandmaster, do you have a written source that proves what you say he says in the YouTube video here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjk5dnn-PQ Editors in English wikipedia not proficient in Azerbaijani have not direct way of verifying what is or is not said in a Azerbaijani video. Thanks. --Armatura ( talk) 12:42, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
And this applies to YT as well. You can check the other guideline: ' Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.219.164.131 ( talk) 15:27, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Khojaly massacre has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove dead link Thprfssnl ( talk) 03:12, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
I don't think statement of Fatullayev should be restored to the article. This journalist's story takes large space in the article, despite the fact that he was neither a witness (he was a teenager back when these events took place), nor conducted any investigation on the matter, as evidenced by the European Court of Human Rights. Moreover, in his recent TV interviews he clearly states that he never accused Azerbaijanis of having committed this crime, and says that it was the Armenians who committed (in his words) a genocide in Khojaly. This is his 2014 interview in Azerbaijani to ANS TV [6] His case has no direct relevance to the massacre, and his varying opinions do not add any useful information. Any information about his views on the subject are better reflected in the article about him. Grand master 08:55, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
I reverted to invite for discussion– We don't revert for the sake of discussing. You can discuss without doing reverts, as undue reverts are disruptive. You have to show a valid reason for reverting. And your reasoning is far from revert worthy and still unclear. If "X" is in the article then "Y" should also be isn't a valid reason to remove "X". You're doing whataboutism actually (again), which is a logical fallacy. This is noway near a good reason to remove well sourced information, and indeed your revert is disruptive. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 11:17, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is an optional method of seeking consensus. This process is not mandated by Wikipedia policy, but it can be useful for identifying objections, keeping discussion moving forward and helping to break deadlocks. In other situations, you may have better success with alternatives to this approach. Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see any reversion as a challenge, so be considerate and patient.
Well, your arguments are so far weak and hence failed to persuade me. Try persuading others. I’m not interested in personal interpretations of any editor, including yours. Efforts of erasing notable and verifiable material from Wikipedia are undue for me. Good day. --Armatura ( talk) 14:24, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
The Court also noted that "The Karabakh Diary" did not constitute a piece of investigative journalism focusing specifically on the Khojaly events and considered that Fatullayev's statements about these events were made rather in passing, parallel to the main theme of the article. I recommend that we keep only first three paragraphs with some copyedit, down to the European Court of Human Rights decision. The rest belongs to the Eynulla Fatullayev article and is more like flogging of a dead horse. Brandmeister talk 18:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Khojaly massacre has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"though as many as 500-1,000 may have died", should be "though as many as 500–1,000 may have died", utilizing en dash. 85.132.96.210 ( talk) 10:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Howdy - Worth adding a simple link to BTR (vehicle) for the unexplained acronym in the first para describing the limited equipment available to the defenders. 74.96.123.134 ( talk) 16:19, 26 October 2023 (UTC)