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Use from SAW when talking on Muhammad constitutes a violation from neutral point of view policy, so I have removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.93.141.163 ( talk) 21:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Removing No Neutral terms used in article.
In the introduction of the article it says he taught every prophet in history except Muhammad, and Muhammad taught him instead. However the bulk of the article does not say anything about where this is said, and doesn't even mention him meeting Muhammad (only mentioning Muhammad saying something about him and him being at Muhammad's funeral.) It doesn't seem to mention his meetings with any prophets besides Moses either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.15.152 ( talk) 12:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Khidr is more common than Al-Khidr and it should be the name of the article. Google gives 33,100 results for "Al-Khidr" [1] and 358,000 results for "Khidr" [2]. To remove the unwanted results if we add "moses" to al-khidr we will get 23,000 results (including the frequency of khidr) [3] and if we add "moses" to khidr we will get 25,400 results (excluding the frequency of al-khidr) [4] ! Lets add "Dhul-Qarnayn" instead of moses, and see the results. al-khidr alongwith "Dhul-Qarnayn" (excluding the frequency of khidr) gives zero result [5] and khidr alongwith "Dhul-Qarnayn" (excluding the frequency of al-khidr) gives 2,760 results [6]. I'm not going further more to show how unpopular and uncommon is "al-khidr" as compared to "khidr", but even the results of khizr or khezr are more than al-khidr! [7] [8] [9]. It's better to have "Khidr" as the title of the article. -- Wayiran ( talk) 19:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
If you ask the wrong question, you get the wrong answer. The right question is: What structure of names, redirections and disambiguations will allow all wikipedia users to find their way with least trouble to the article they are looking for? The relevant facts are that we have an Arabic word just meaning "green". The Hans Wehr Arabic dictionary has the entry
(so implying that the legendary figure always has the definite article). Possible transliterations currently appear in the titles of wikipedia articles with these counts:
My conclusion is that the title of this article should be something longer; I notice for example that Green man of Islam is already there as a redirect. Then there should be a disambiguation page for Khadr/Khader/Khadir/Khidr/Khider/Khodor/Khizr/Khizar using one of those spellings, and redirects into it from all the other versions. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 13:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Isn't the biblic name for "Khidr" Ezra? Because Khidr is synonymous to Uzair. Hassanfarooqi ( talk)
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The inclusion of a very large section containing stream-of-thought associations based on the highly fringe ideas of Gürdal Aksoy is unnecessary for this article. Ogress smash! 15:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Why is there a sentence in the lede ....
"According to Dutch Orientalist Arent Jan Wensinck (1882–1939) the story of Khidr and Alexander the Great is connected with the Gilgamesh Epic"
.... with no prior mention of "the story of Khidr and Alexander the Great"?
This would be bad enough in the body of the article but in the lede it is ... really bad.
This is just one example of all kinds of problems with the article.
The lede makes the claim,
"The name "Khidr" is taken colloquially (and sometimes within more scholarly literature) to mean "the Green One" or "the Verdant One" in Arabic; however, this definition is only a popular etymology with no linguistic connection between Khidr and al-akhdar, the Arabic word for green.[6]"
This needs some explanation as the consonant root for khidr and green (al-akhdar),are the same خضر
So what is the cite provided to back up this claim? A book in Turkish with no link. (Gürdal Aksoy, Dersim Alevi Kürt Mitolojisi, Raa Haqda Dinsel Figürler, Istanbul, 2006, ) i.e. no way at all for English speakers to verify it.
The lede goes on to state: "Another opinion refers to a short or Arabized form of Hasisatra (Atra-Hasis).[7] Hasisatra is the nickname of the "Sumerian Noah" Utnapishtim."
What is the arabized form of Atra-Hasis? Goodness knows Atra-Hasis doesn't share the same roots at khidr.
The
Khidr#Historical_background section is a long, solid mass of text with no subsections. It starts out:
"The most compelling modern hypothesis on Khidr's prototype compares him with the Ugaritic god Kothar-wa-Khasis.[14] Both figures possess wisdom and secret knowledge. According to the Quran, "Khidr" (although not named directly) has a special wisdom and esoteric knowledge (hikmah and ilm al-ladun)."
Who are the Ugarit? Nothing provided.
What's the source? The same Turkish book with no link.
Agreed. It's as if they're trying to make this figure into some sort of ur-hero that has spanned the entire (or at least the western and middle-eastern) globe. The template for all others. "Got a famous hero? He's Khidr!". 173.95.56.66 ( talk) 20:41, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
The main problem is that a quick search of "khidr" in google books finds nothing about Gigemesh or "Sumerian Noah" Utnapishtim. Authors writing about khidr mention the Quran and Islam. So at the very most it would seem the non-Islamic connection would merit a short mention in the lede and a less than the hundreds and hundreds of words currently in the body. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 17:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC) BoogaLouie ( talk) 01:04, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
This article appears to contain original research. In fact it appears to be almost entirely comprised of a re-formatted essay of some sort and not an encyclopedia entry at all. The material is far too long simply edit in place, suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TGdub ( talk • contribs) 06:01, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I started to try and clean up but not sure how to proceed.
Example: Here is a section from the article:
Al-Khiḍr in "The History of al-Tabari"
In his chapter "The Tale of al-Khiḍr and His History; and the History of Moses and His Servant Joshua," al-Tabari describes several versions of the traditional story surrounding al-Khiḍr. ...
Who is al-Tabari? What is the "The History of al-Tabari"? A history of the life of some guy named al-Tabari?
So having spent a fair amount of time I have essentially rewritten one sentence. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
The culprit seems to be an editor with no homepage named Tarasyani. I left an exasperated note on his talk page -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:45, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Tarasyani, you must familiarize yourself with wikipedia rules and ways of writing. This is an encyclopedia not a forum for academic trivia. Please read up on how an article is written.
BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
BoogaLouie, it's very clear, I think! Although this is not a childish competition for me, I can explain it! Of course! But it will be long again and someone can say "it's also too much"! Another one can call it as "an academic trivia" like you. Therefore it's not necessary! Secondly; I don't have to explain every motif or element of the myth. There are many wiki articles and people look at them too. For example Alexander romance... If you read it, you can find this clue there: "Philologists, studying ancient Christian legends about Alexander the Great, have come to conclude that the Qur'an's stories about Dhul-Qarnayn closely parallel certain legends about Alexander the Great found in ancient Hellenistic and Christian writings". Some Quran interpreters think that Moses is actually Alexander the Great. Because the story about him (in Quran) is like Alexander Romance and it is interesting point that Quran tells the stories of Moses and the D'hul-Qarnayn one after the other. Some scholars think that Alexander's cook is no one than Khidr.
By an article nobody can tell or explain everything about the topic.
Tarasyani--
Tarasyani (
talk)
18:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Helpsome, I wrote clearly that the new hypothesis is not of Bilal Aksoy. My basic references are some books of Gurdal Aksoy and his opinion. Because he thinks that Khidr is originally from Ugaritic culture... Although I repeated it again and again, you changed the information without any logical reason. I don't know what do you want to do? Is this a bad joke? Tarasyani---
Tarasyani (
talk)
13:48, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Helpsome, What you say, actually is not an answer. Give me correct answer please? Although he is not Bilal Aksoy, you changed text and put his name there. Why? You say that "you added no references"! It's really absurd! Because there are too much references. Enough English references too! But there are some important information about the topic at Turkish books or articles and you don't find them at English references. Therefore I've used some Turkish references too. You don't read Turkish, I know. But you write wrong name there, although I say again and again, it's wrong name. I see here also some Orientalism... If his name was a Western name, than may be good for you to accept the opinion... What is universal? And I say; please stop being disruptive. Because my reference is Gurdal Aksoy's book there. Look at reference no. 35: Gürdal Aksoy 2006: 215-93!!!!! Tarasyani--
Tarasyani (
talk)
15:01, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Hey @
BoogaLouie:, I told you I would eventually get around to this. Anyway, how do you want to go about this? There is a template at the top of the article already listing several problems. Should we begin tagging for citation, POV, incomplete citations and other within the body of the article itself? Regarding totally uncited stuff, we could leave a period of maybe two months or so and if nothing is found, then delete. Regarding improper citation, I don't have any suggestion at the moment. For POV pushing, adjusting things should be easier.
I generally have found it best to take it slow this these kind of things, but let's brainstorm. Where should we go from here in fixing the article?
MezzoMezzo (
talk)
07:58, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I added some references now... I think that it's more than enough. But I can add more... Tarasyani-- Tarasyani ( talk) 00:22, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I want to remove the template. Because this page is changed since September 2014. Reorganized and added more references... Tarasyani-- Tarasyani ( talk) 21:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Are there any traditions that equate al-Khidr with Melchizedek that could be added to this article entry? Barney Hill ( talk) 20:25, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
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The article has way too many citations in the lead. I think that's not okay per MOS. Lightbluerain❄ ( Talk | contribs) 17:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
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Use from SAW when talking on Muhammad constitutes a violation from neutral point of view policy, so I have removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.93.141.163 ( talk) 21:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Removing No Neutral terms used in article.
In the introduction of the article it says he taught every prophet in history except Muhammad, and Muhammad taught him instead. However the bulk of the article does not say anything about where this is said, and doesn't even mention him meeting Muhammad (only mentioning Muhammad saying something about him and him being at Muhammad's funeral.) It doesn't seem to mention his meetings with any prophets besides Moses either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.15.152 ( talk) 12:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Khidr is more common than Al-Khidr and it should be the name of the article. Google gives 33,100 results for "Al-Khidr" [1] and 358,000 results for "Khidr" [2]. To remove the unwanted results if we add "moses" to al-khidr we will get 23,000 results (including the frequency of khidr) [3] and if we add "moses" to khidr we will get 25,400 results (excluding the frequency of al-khidr) [4] ! Lets add "Dhul-Qarnayn" instead of moses, and see the results. al-khidr alongwith "Dhul-Qarnayn" (excluding the frequency of khidr) gives zero result [5] and khidr alongwith "Dhul-Qarnayn" (excluding the frequency of al-khidr) gives 2,760 results [6]. I'm not going further more to show how unpopular and uncommon is "al-khidr" as compared to "khidr", but even the results of khizr or khezr are more than al-khidr! [7] [8] [9]. It's better to have "Khidr" as the title of the article. -- Wayiran ( talk) 19:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
If you ask the wrong question, you get the wrong answer. The right question is: What structure of names, redirections and disambiguations will allow all wikipedia users to find their way with least trouble to the article they are looking for? The relevant facts are that we have an Arabic word just meaning "green". The Hans Wehr Arabic dictionary has the entry
(so implying that the legendary figure always has the definite article). Possible transliterations currently appear in the titles of wikipedia articles with these counts:
My conclusion is that the title of this article should be something longer; I notice for example that Green man of Islam is already there as a redirect. Then there should be a disambiguation page for Khadr/Khader/Khadir/Khidr/Khider/Khodor/Khizr/Khizar using one of those spellings, and redirects into it from all the other versions. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 13:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Isn't the biblic name for "Khidr" Ezra? Because Khidr is synonymous to Uzair. Hassanfarooqi ( talk)
An image used in this article,
File:Khizr.JPG, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 10:29, 31 August 2011 (UTC) |
The inclusion of a very large section containing stream-of-thought associations based on the highly fringe ideas of Gürdal Aksoy is unnecessary for this article. Ogress smash! 15:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Why is there a sentence in the lede ....
"According to Dutch Orientalist Arent Jan Wensinck (1882–1939) the story of Khidr and Alexander the Great is connected with the Gilgamesh Epic"
.... with no prior mention of "the story of Khidr and Alexander the Great"?
This would be bad enough in the body of the article but in the lede it is ... really bad.
This is just one example of all kinds of problems with the article.
The lede makes the claim,
"The name "Khidr" is taken colloquially (and sometimes within more scholarly literature) to mean "the Green One" or "the Verdant One" in Arabic; however, this definition is only a popular etymology with no linguistic connection between Khidr and al-akhdar, the Arabic word for green.[6]"
This needs some explanation as the consonant root for khidr and green (al-akhdar),are the same خضر
So what is the cite provided to back up this claim? A book in Turkish with no link. (Gürdal Aksoy, Dersim Alevi Kürt Mitolojisi, Raa Haqda Dinsel Figürler, Istanbul, 2006, ) i.e. no way at all for English speakers to verify it.
The lede goes on to state: "Another opinion refers to a short or Arabized form of Hasisatra (Atra-Hasis).[7] Hasisatra is the nickname of the "Sumerian Noah" Utnapishtim."
What is the arabized form of Atra-Hasis? Goodness knows Atra-Hasis doesn't share the same roots at khidr.
The
Khidr#Historical_background section is a long, solid mass of text with no subsections. It starts out:
"The most compelling modern hypothesis on Khidr's prototype compares him with the Ugaritic god Kothar-wa-Khasis.[14] Both figures possess wisdom and secret knowledge. According to the Quran, "Khidr" (although not named directly) has a special wisdom and esoteric knowledge (hikmah and ilm al-ladun)."
Who are the Ugarit? Nothing provided.
What's the source? The same Turkish book with no link.
Agreed. It's as if they're trying to make this figure into some sort of ur-hero that has spanned the entire (or at least the western and middle-eastern) globe. The template for all others. "Got a famous hero? He's Khidr!". 173.95.56.66 ( talk) 20:41, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
The main problem is that a quick search of "khidr" in google books finds nothing about Gigemesh or "Sumerian Noah" Utnapishtim. Authors writing about khidr mention the Quran and Islam. So at the very most it would seem the non-Islamic connection would merit a short mention in the lede and a less than the hundreds and hundreds of words currently in the body. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 17:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC) BoogaLouie ( talk) 01:04, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
This article appears to contain original research. In fact it appears to be almost entirely comprised of a re-formatted essay of some sort and not an encyclopedia entry at all. The material is far too long simply edit in place, suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TGdub ( talk • contribs) 06:01, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I started to try and clean up but not sure how to proceed.
Example: Here is a section from the article:
Al-Khiḍr in "The History of al-Tabari"
In his chapter "The Tale of al-Khiḍr and His History; and the History of Moses and His Servant Joshua," al-Tabari describes several versions of the traditional story surrounding al-Khiḍr. ...
Who is al-Tabari? What is the "The History of al-Tabari"? A history of the life of some guy named al-Tabari?
So having spent a fair amount of time I have essentially rewritten one sentence. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
The culprit seems to be an editor with no homepage named Tarasyani. I left an exasperated note on his talk page -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:45, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Tarasyani, you must familiarize yourself with wikipedia rules and ways of writing. This is an encyclopedia not a forum for academic trivia. Please read up on how an article is written.
BoogaLouie ( talk) 23:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
BoogaLouie, it's very clear, I think! Although this is not a childish competition for me, I can explain it! Of course! But it will be long again and someone can say "it's also too much"! Another one can call it as "an academic trivia" like you. Therefore it's not necessary! Secondly; I don't have to explain every motif or element of the myth. There are many wiki articles and people look at them too. For example Alexander romance... If you read it, you can find this clue there: "Philologists, studying ancient Christian legends about Alexander the Great, have come to conclude that the Qur'an's stories about Dhul-Qarnayn closely parallel certain legends about Alexander the Great found in ancient Hellenistic and Christian writings". Some Quran interpreters think that Moses is actually Alexander the Great. Because the story about him (in Quran) is like Alexander Romance and it is interesting point that Quran tells the stories of Moses and the D'hul-Qarnayn one after the other. Some scholars think that Alexander's cook is no one than Khidr.
By an article nobody can tell or explain everything about the topic.
Tarasyani--
Tarasyani (
talk)
18:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Helpsome, I wrote clearly that the new hypothesis is not of Bilal Aksoy. My basic references are some books of Gurdal Aksoy and his opinion. Because he thinks that Khidr is originally from Ugaritic culture... Although I repeated it again and again, you changed the information without any logical reason. I don't know what do you want to do? Is this a bad joke? Tarasyani---
Tarasyani (
talk)
13:48, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Helpsome, What you say, actually is not an answer. Give me correct answer please? Although he is not Bilal Aksoy, you changed text and put his name there. Why? You say that "you added no references"! It's really absurd! Because there are too much references. Enough English references too! But there are some important information about the topic at Turkish books or articles and you don't find them at English references. Therefore I've used some Turkish references too. You don't read Turkish, I know. But you write wrong name there, although I say again and again, it's wrong name. I see here also some Orientalism... If his name was a Western name, than may be good for you to accept the opinion... What is universal? And I say; please stop being disruptive. Because my reference is Gurdal Aksoy's book there. Look at reference no. 35: Gürdal Aksoy 2006: 215-93!!!!! Tarasyani--
Tarasyani (
talk)
15:01, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Hey @
BoogaLouie:, I told you I would eventually get around to this. Anyway, how do you want to go about this? There is a template at the top of the article already listing several problems. Should we begin tagging for citation, POV, incomplete citations and other within the body of the article itself? Regarding totally uncited stuff, we could leave a period of maybe two months or so and if nothing is found, then delete. Regarding improper citation, I don't have any suggestion at the moment. For POV pushing, adjusting things should be easier.
I generally have found it best to take it slow this these kind of things, but let's brainstorm. Where should we go from here in fixing the article?
MezzoMezzo (
talk)
07:58, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I added some references now... I think that it's more than enough. But I can add more... Tarasyani-- Tarasyani ( talk) 00:22, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I want to remove the template. Because this page is changed since September 2014. Reorganized and added more references... Tarasyani-- Tarasyani ( talk) 21:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Are there any traditions that equate al-Khidr with Melchizedek that could be added to this article entry? Barney Hill ( talk) 20:25, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
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The article has way too many citations in the lead. I think that's not okay per MOS. Lightbluerain❄ ( Talk | contribs) 17:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)