![]() | Khandoba has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Could somebody please break the last section of the page into sub paragraphs, as it is very unwieldy,possibly using sub headings. I don't have the knowledge of the text do it properly.
perfectblue 14:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The version i have created is a summary of your information. The information you had provided was in a hap hazard state. Thus to meet the wikipedia standards, i have put the info in proper English. Thatz all. I respect your sentiments for God Khandoba. Please let this version remain.
Please stop stop 'Tamil' Venu vs 'Maratha' Vishal war.
God bless. Khandoba cha chag bhal!
-- Redtigerxyz 08:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Grate. Thanks. But the destruction and infame done by Venu62 is very bad. -- Vishal1976
Dear Vishal,
Reply 2 ur "Human's canot(cannot) edite(edit) god's secred(sacred) , holy text. you can only translate." Wikipedia is not the place to translate 'god's holy text'. If the articles - on gita or Puranas or RAMAyana or Mahabharat was put translated then the article would be 1000s, maybe crores of pages!!!!!!! Same Implies to Malhari Mahatmya.
WhY don't you start a site instead where ur valuable input to this article is put? U know articles have some Kb limits.
God bless. Khandoba cha chag bhal!-- Redtigerxyz 15:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
yess. i have already this in my mind. But what about the vandalism committed by Venu62 and Meltitas etc. They gotta me banned and kidnapped my article Maratha clan system. You can gess that waht business these vandalist got to do whith these article except vandalism ?? They haven't put a single good , informative word to this articles but deliting good information. If the havent been to Jejuri or god Khandoba's temple , then what right they got to edite here. As they do not belong to Maratha caste , then one can get ther malicious , vwnoms intention to vandalise this articles. I have been to god Khandoba's temple several times and read , gathered information about Maratha caste in good , pious intention.And about your said objection that each articles have KB limits , but if Wikipedia autorities have no objection then why are you bothered ?? Those who hate god Khandoba , Maratha pepole and are non beliver do not have any right to edite here. Did i ever vandalise Tamil articles befoure this war started ?? Kee these in mind and consider my lawfuul rights .--- Vishal1976 -- Vishal Prakash Duhane
Wouldn't u be scared to read a 100 line para?-- Redtigerxyz 10:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I Vishal1976 hade transalated good information about god Jyotiba, but vandalist Venu62 and MelTitis vandalised that article and repetadely kidnnapeed the article without any justification . Can you put the short information about my post AS Shree Kedar Vijay Mr Redtigerxyz. You know that these vandalist have blocked me and they both are sock puppeters.
History at Jyotiba article :- 10:28, 20 March 2007 61.17.205.115
This is regarding the way the wives of Khandoba are addressed in the article. My suggestion would be to use Devi at start or end of the name. e.g Devi Mhalsa or Mhalsadevi. The current usage is improper and i strongly feel it should be changed. If anyone has any other suggestion please feel free discuss it. If none respond to this suggestion from me, i shall be changing the names to what i have suggested, say in a day or two. (Asro 09:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC))
The current edition of article god kandoba is vicious and defaming the god. It should be altered and those who are responsible should be punish in the court of law. In this article the god khandoba is potrated as sexy man, lusty for womens, marrying outcaste girls. If you see all the caste mention in this articles , even today they don't intermarry, marry outcaste. The meaning, tone of this article sounds very loudly to defame, insult the god Khandoba and Maratha caste and spread missleading information about god Khandoba in all world. Dose Wikipedia allows this vandalism ??? I Vishal Prakash Dudhane, User Vishal1976 have personaly visited both forts god Khandoba and did the ritual like Abhishek , Tali Bhandar etc many time in pious intention. I have talked the peoples, priests. Many of my Maratha relatives and other friends lives ther in Jejuri will certainly will not agree with current edition of this article. I expect argent, quick legal, ethical, moral actions against the vandalist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.140.159 ( talk) 08:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I bet you Redtigerxyz are not from Brahmin caste. Instead of asking refernce from those writers whose genetics, ansestory, genpool have no refrence, you should find the reasone why Brahmin caste are not allowed to enter the Khandoba temple of Jejuri and Bhavani temple of Tuljapur. This will throw a sunlight in your vicious innermind that you are carring and vandalisin all Maratha gods related article. Anyway you Brahmin are so poor, triffle to me that i even can't remember the splee of Brahmin word.-- Vishal1976 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.252.172 ( talk) 07:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's not have any personal attacks or vandalism, Vishal. Ekantik talk 03:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if any editor has a copy of the Malhari-mahatmya and if they could use it to fill in more details about the career of Khandoba? Right now the section is way too small and may look better if it is combined with the 'wives' section. I appreciate that Khandoba is generally not very well known as other divinities. Ekantik talk 03:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
As per WP:MOS, the list of temples would look much better further down the article after the 'worship' section. It isn't appropriate to begin an article with a list of temples rather than give information about Khandoba himself. What do other editors think?
P.S. I will data-mine some academic references about Khandoba when I get the time. Ekantik talk 03:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I will be reviewing this article for GA status, and should have the full review up within a couple of hours. Dana boomer ( talk) 23:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
To my mind Khandoba is another god in the Hindu pantheon like Kali, Ganesh or Vitthal or Balaji. People worshipping on of these gods don't normally have a problem also worshipping the other gods and so calling those worshipping Khandoba as belonging to his cult or sect may not be appropriate. The whole Khandoba article cites references from just one book, just one book ! Makes one wonder how it was ever given a good article status ! 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 13:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Copy-paste from my talk page: -- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:45, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Please stop adding the words nominal or few in front of Brahmin on the worship section. The colonial era gazetteer or documents based on that make abundantly clear that Khandoba was worshiped by deshastha. You correctly say, Deshastha have Khandoba as their kuldaiwat. The List of Deshastha Brahmin surnames have either Khandoba or Balaji as the male kuldaiwat with Khandoba being more common. At my deshastha grandfather's house, they used to have a 6 day Khandoba che Ghat (घट) in Margashirsha month. Given this, why are you so reluctant to add that deshastha worship Khandoba in the first sentence. Is it because you don't like brahmins being associated with so called low castes ? I know kokanastha don't worship Khandoba but practically all other Marathi castes do! Perhaps, this denotes the comparatively recent arrival of kokanstha to Maharashtra. However, that doesn't explain the adoption by a large number of kokanastha of Yogeshwari of Ambejogai as their kuldaiwat though! 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 17:23, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Redtigerxyz, How does having Khandoba as Kuldaiwat ( family deity) doesn't equate to worship ? 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 20:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Redtigerxyz The whole paragraph on Khandoba worship needs rewording to differentiate between cult worship and what it involves from benign worship by brahmin communities. I don't know what brahmin community you belong to but the The gazetteer's report for Satara says that Kokanastha worship him too. If by "cult" worship you mean blood sacrifice , sexual depravity etc. then that should be explicitly stated. When so many deshastha and upper caste Marathas have him as their kuldevata then , these families would have Khandoba's image in their household shrine (Deeoghar in Marathi) and the family will visit Jejuri or Pali after a wedding , munj etc. So the word few or nominal before brahmins may not be right when mentioning communities following Khandoba, unless you also explicitly state that "worship" applies to the more "exotic" cult worship of Khandoba. 24.187.26.104 ( talk) 14:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello Redtiger, Here are multiple references stating that brahmans worship Khandoba. the last one is from Satara talking about Kokanastha and Khandoba. I would say relying on just one reference, Criminal God.... etc. may not be a good idea for wikipedia. My maternal grandparents, who were yajurvedi deshastha had a metal khandoba on a horseback in their deoghar. Just like Navratri for Devi with "ghat basale" they used to have six days of ghat in Margashirsh with champasashthi as the last day of the festival. The various gazetteers reports also talk about worship by other so called lower castes which you may want to incorporate in the wikipedia article. Below are mostly articles talking about brahmin worship only [6], [7], [8], [9] 24.187.26.104 ( talk) 20:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Agree. the word sect would be more appropriate or even "panth". 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 16:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC) I take my words back from the previous post. To my mind Khandoba is another god in the Hindu pantheon like Kali, Ganesh or Vitthal or Balaji. People worshipping one of these gods don't normally have a problem also worshipping the other gods and so calling those worshipping Khandoba as belonging to his cult or sect may not be appropriate. The whole Khandoba article cites references from just one book, just one book ! Makes one wonder how it was ever given a good article status ? 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 13:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Well you cite 60 references, out of that 54 are from Hiltebeitel's book! May be that's why the article has the "cult flavor" and not the NPOV which it should have. One of your correspondence has cited a number of references from Gazetteers. These have a more neutral tone despite being written by the British at the height of their rule in india. 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 19:54, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Thanks.
Zuggernaut (
talk)
20:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)Burman p. 1227:"Sakama Bhakti is considered to be of a lower esteem and the lower caste people are considered to follow it. The worship of Khandoba cult is considered to be a part of Sakama Bhakti. Eknath, one of the most renowned Bhakti saints is also believed to have written disparagingly about the cult worship of Khandoba. ... In some places Khandoba is called Mallu Khan or Amjat Khan - the latter said to be a name given to Khandoba by Aurangzeb, who was compelled to flee from Khandoba's power." -- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Where did Burman discover that Sakam bhakti has a lower esteem because it is connected with people of so called lower castes? Sakama Bhakti is for the householder, nishkam bhakti is for those who have renounced the world. Sakama is translated by Sri La Bhakti Vedanta Prabhupada as frutive activities and Nishkam as pure devotion.
In Bhagwatgita 7.16 Shri Krishna describes the four types of Bhaktas;
chatur-vidha bhajante mam janah sukritinorjuna arto jijnasur artharthi dnyani cha bharatarsabha (7.16)
Arjuna (the best of the Bharats) four types of pious persons render devotional service to me, the distressed, the seeker of knowledge, the desirers of wealth, and men of wisdom.
Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada comments
“ | Adherents of the regulative principles of the scriptures, and they are called sukritinah, or those who obey the rules and regulations of scriptures, the moral and social laws, and are, more or less, devoted to the Supreme Lord. Out of these there are four classes of men—those who are sometimes distressed, those who are in need of money, those who are sometimes inquisitive, and those who are sometimes searching after knowledge of the Absolute Truth. These persons come to the Supreme Lord for devotional service under different conditions. These are not pure devotees, because they have some aspiration to fulfill in exchange for devotional service. Pure devotional service is without aspiration and without desire for material profit | ” |
Shri Vishvanath Chakravarti Thakur comments
“ | Four types worship me. Those who follow the rules of varnasrama (sukrtinah), worship me. Among them some desire relief from affliction, from calamities like sickness; some desire knowledge of atma or desire knowledge of scriptures with grammar; and some desire enjoyment in this life and the next with land, elephants, horses, women, gold and other such things. These worship me. These three are sakama grhasthas. The fourth type, the dnyani, a sannyasi with pure heart, is niskama. | ” |
Shridhar Swami comments:
“ | Sridhara Swami's Commentary
Only those who are virtuous and righteous have the qualification for devotion to the Supreme Lord. There are four categories of such qualified beings according to differences in their virtue. Those who performed virtuous deeds in previous lives worship Lord Krishna and fall into four categories: 1) artto are those distressed such as persecuted by disease. If they performed virtuous activities in past lives then they will have the opportunity to worship Lord Krishna otherwise they will be limited to worshipping minor gods and formless illusionary gods. 2) atharthi are the seekers of wealth who desire to have full facility for enjoyment in this life and their next. If they performed virtuous deeds in their past lives then they too will have the opportunity to worship Lord Krishna. 3) jijnasuh are those who desire self realisation to end the cycle of birth and death. If they performed virtuous actions in their past lives they will also have the opportunity to worship Lord Krishna. 4) dnyanis are those who have achieved atma tattva or realisation of the soul and know the Supreme Lord. If they have performed virtuous activities in their past lives then they will have the opportunity of advancing further and worshipping Lord Krishna. It should be understood that aspirants in all four categories will be forced to experience endless reincarnation until one finally evolves to attainment of devotion to Lord Krishna. |
” |
On what basis can Burman suggest that whether a bhakti is Sakam or Nishkam bhakti is related with caste and ritual? He is painting a grossly distorted picture of Hindu philosophy against what Hindu dnyanis have explained as quoted above. So Burman's views are either sheer nonsense or at best wp:fringe. Burman ibid starts with (not verbatim) "Shivaji may have been a great warrior". So who according to him can be considered unqualified great? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 02:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Does this article suggest that Ramoshi's are ex-criminals? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 03:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I guess other communities of India might say that the traditional occupation of all Marathi people was looting because that was one activity Shivaji and his successors used to built the Maratha empire. Anthropological surveys and other colonial era documents use disparaging terms about all castes including brahmins. I hope you get my point. So please be careful in how you use information about a particular community. 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 12:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Zugernaut, for a change I agree with you. I tried searching using Ramoshi +criminal and all my hits were based on British colonial era documents ( e.g. 1871 criminal tribes act ) Redtiger, Zuggernaut, we as wikipedia editors need ready references and because of copyright issues, the most easily available on the internet are from decades ago or a century ago. Unfortunately, the older ones happen to be written by europeans with views prevalent during that era. If we rely solely on these then the wikipedia article also becomes distorted. A case in point is my edit war since yesterday with Zuggernaut. I have been interested in the subject of "caste and race / genetics for nearly twenty years and have spent countless hours in the library searching for information and getting copies of articles of interest to me. ( and I am not a social scientist). I have a full copy of the Mastana et al article in annals of Human biology and my edits are faithfully based on the content of the article. However, since the article is not freely available on the web, Zuggernaut gets suspicious (perhaps natural). I have not shared the contents of that article because I just want to test the Wikipedia verifiability and ease of access policies to the fullest. Having said that, I think we should believe in Wikipedia:Assume good faith policy and not delete perfectly good edits at the first chance. Also given the times we are living in, we should also use some sensitivity in using terms such as "low castes" or ex-criminal.Shakher59 21:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs)
Redtiger, you contradict yourself ( in the Khandoba article). On one hand you say Khandoba is worshipped by communities on the fringe but then we mention deshastha brahmins and the maratha royal families as well. I think your views are blinkered by the two articles from "Criminal Gods and demon devotees" and that's why you associate Khandoba with communities on the margins of Maharashtrian society. The reality is that Khandoba more so than Vitthal is the "patron god" for all indigenous Marathi people because most castes (including deshastha brahmins) have him as their Kuldaiwat. And this is not original Research.Shakher59 13:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs)
Redtiger, you say and i quote "Khandoba cult also includes the masses and people from fringes of society, which is not always the case." when you say not always the case, are you saying that there are Hindu gods which worshipped only by hindu religious or social elites ( brahmins, kulin Maratha ,CKP etc)? if so, please let me know who these gods are ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Again Red has tripped on a rhetorical question. The Ramoshi's were branded criminal, like many other peoples by the British racist, criminal colonialists. Do you mean to say Red that just because Savarkar spent years in British prison for murder (conspiracy, abetment etc.), that makes his progency murderers?
Were the British criminals any better than Marathas, Pindaris, Thugs or others? Hodson first removed the clothes of Zafar’s sons and then shot them. Why did he remove their clothes, simple! he stole their jewels, must have been worth a fortune!! Iranians, Arabs, Turks, Afghans, Moghals, Siddis are known to have destroyed tens of thousands of temples and robbed their wealth, were the Marathas, Pindaris, Thugs any worse.[ [24]]. Srinagar’s only Jain temple was recently ransacked.[ [25]] Getting back to ASI and the Gazettes, we have a victorious people writing the history of their contest. They stamped the Pindaris, Thugs etc as criminal, condemned them to a life of brutal oppression. The British and Europeans have not yet stopped this racism, less than 60 years ago it was the Jews, the Roma and others by the Germans, the Jews have been rehabilitated, the Roma continued to suffer racial profiling, there are Europe’s unmenschen, but we are sourcing non-sense from these muck-raisers and anointing our people and our gods with it. It is such a shame. Shaker I had once suggested that sources not on line should be extensively quoted perhaps in footnotes, for peer review. Red don’t call Ramoshi’s or anybody else criminals. Ex or otherwise. It is saying that Vinod's pet-name is Kalya Taklya, only greatly sinister. Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 17:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
No mention of the above cry? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 17:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Redtiger, as we agreed in message exchange a few days ago, we should work on getting the whole section on Khandoba worship reworded. I also included several articles from gazeteers as references to back this up. The references mainly show that all brahmin castes including deshastha and Kokanastha worshipped Khandoba. Incidently, the references are from the 1800s. Please also read [27]. I hope you notice the word cult. Shakher59 17:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs)
“ | On fulfilment of the navas, Khandoba was offered children or the devotee would afflict pain by hook-swinging or fire-walking.[41] This type of worship is called Sakama Bhakti - worship done with an expectation of return and is considered "to be of a lower esteem".[42] | ” |
Navas is Sakam bhakti, how the navas is fulfilled, is secondary, why does this article smear Hindu deities and worship, by leading and false information? Does the source say that fire walking is Sakam bhakti, sheer nonsense and false information. Navas can be fulfilled by starting a school or sponsoring a scholar, or by offering 1.25 rupees, there is nothing gory about navas and Sakam bhakti fundamentally, how individuals fulfil it is as varied as there are devotees. The meaning of Sakam bhakti is given in adequate detail above, please modify this article Yogesh Khandke ( talk)
Redtiger, I agree your German reference says "few" but then we have references further on in the section that say that Deshastha as well as Konkanstha worship Khandoba. I also have references that say that Karhade brahmin worship Khandoba. Doesn't that constitute most of the brahmin community of Maharathra ? Now , you will once again say, oh, but "cultic worship" is different from "domestic worship". Are there vast differences ? If yu can show that then I will accept the word few before brahmins. My yajurvedi brahmin mother's side of the family had a Khandoba figure in their deoghar. I have seen many brahmin families perform "Gondhal" after a wedding or munj. So most of the "modes of worship" you mention are performed by Brahmins. Now sacrificing an animal or a bird may not be part of brahmin worship but would you regard that necessarily a "cultic" worship ?
I look forward to your comments. Anandbharti ( talk) 00:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
You say "classical brahmin", however classical brahmin way also involved taking part in the Ashvamedh Yajna when the victory horse was sacrificed ! What you should have really said is "contemporary brahmin way". Anyhow, that asides, I suggest we should change the text as follows: According to Stanley et al, Khandoba is worshipped mainly by communities lower in social hierachy but there are a few brahmin and even muslim adherents of the cult. However, earlier studies from 1800s show that Khandoba was worshipped by communities across the social strata that included royal Maratha clans as well as most brahmin communities of Maharathra.
I know you have fixation on Stanley's book and as mentioned before, your reliance on just that reference is not a good idea for an article with GA rating ! Well, you have said there are 100 other references but some of those are miinor and you try your best to reduce their importance. For example, when an old reference said Kokanstatha worship Khandoba, you tried to localize it by saying it only happened in Nasik district. Well, Nasik is not that far from Mumbai or Pune and the Nasik community therefore could not have been that isolated. Anyhow, I hope you get my point. Well , I have to thank you for keeping an eye on this article, however I still think relying on Stanley's reference kind of gives a sensationalized picture of Khandoba worship to those not familiar with Hindu culture. Anandbharti ( talk) 12:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Agree, not all kokanstha worship Khandoba but then they account for may be 20% of Maharashtrian brahmin population ( I will submit references later). So if you believe, I am telling the truth, then the sentence should read "a few brahmins do not not worship him". I am a deshastha but have never visited Jejuri and frankly I am not that religious, however, I do not want cultural practices of my relations to be a minority pursuit. Yes, I dug out the references for Ratnagiri and Nasik and other disricts too under an anonymous ID and we have had discussion on this section before . References from the 1800s say that ,hindus belonging to almost all Maharashtrian castes worshipped Khandoba with the exception of Kokanastha. Does this finding give credence to the theory that Kokanastha have not been in Maharashtra for that long? Don't get me wrong, half of my close relations have kokanstha brahmin blood in them. Here I am just trying to get the article to reflect reality rather than the POV of just one book, that's all. Anandbharti ( talk) 16:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Nobody is dragging you into Kokanstha v Deshastha debate. it is your intransigence, I don't understand. If 20% is is huge then what would you call the deshastha number which is reported to be much larger than kokanstha ? I could not find direct references to karhade, saraswat or devrukhe worshipping khandoba but then karhades are supposed to be shakt ( devotees of Shakti, the godess) and therefore more likely to worship Bhavani or Mahalaxmi etc. Saraswats are immigrants from goa and therefore revere Mangesh. Devrukhe, I have to say I could not find direct reference, however , they are a much smaller community than either deshastha or kokanastha. In my opinion , you believe, that unless one can write something verbatim from a reference then only it is allowed to be included into wikipedia, otherwise it is OR. A case in point is the sentence we have dispute on. That is straight from Sontheimer's book. As far as criticizing Khandoba worship by the kokanastha, you failed to mention the Christian missionaries. Do you expect christians, especially the missionaries , to respect any Hindu Gods or practices ? I don't even know why you cared to put that sentence in the article. As far as non-brahmin priests are concerned, that was the case with a number of shiva temples in Maharastra. from , first hand experience, I can tell you, the Gurav or shaiv brahmins, of Alandi resent the brahmins for usurping the Guravs' role in being priests to the samadshi of Sant Dnyaneshwar ! During my search I found another report that interestingly mentions Khandoba worship amongst brahmins by Kokanastha only. [31]. i will add that to the article.
I suggest we change "few " to "a significant number" and finish this matter. Anandbharti ( talk) 22:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Please go ahead and make the changes. Anandbharti ( talk) 14:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
This is OK, as per our discussion. That kind of says that indigenous Marathi hindu castes from all levels of social hierarchy worship him. Anandbharti ( talk) 22:02, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
I propose the following changes to the section worship. It unnecessarily goes into details as to who in which district worships Khandoba especially amongst the brahmins. Please comment.
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular. [1] The cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a " Denotified tribe", [2] [3] the former " untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims. [4] [5] Though the Brahmin presence in the cult is nominal, Deshastha Brahmins [6] [7] (constituting of 60% of Maharashtra's Brahmins), as well as the Kokanastha Brahmins - in Nashik and Satara - do worship Khandoba, some imitating the Deshastha Brahmins. [8] The Deshastha Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, [7] as well as the royal families like Gaikwads and Holkars worship Khandoba as their family deity ( Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by tribals, kings, merchants, Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers. [9] One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)". [1]
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular. [1] According to Stanley in 1977,the cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a " Denotified tribe", [2] [3] the former " untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims. [4] [5] However,in contrast to Stanley, earlier British colonial accounts from more than a century ago record worship of Khandoba across all castes including the various brahmin subcastes such as Deshastha, Kokanastha and Karhade. Deshastha Brahmins [6] [7] [8] The Deshastha Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, [7] as well as the royal families like Gaikwads and Holkars worship Khandoba as their family deity ( Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by tribals, kings, merchants, Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers. [9] One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)". [1]
Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
OK. In that case we have to explicitly separate the the two modes of worship. How about this ? Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular. [1]. Furthermore, the mode of worship can be differentiated into the "cultic" and mainstream. According to Stanley in 1977, the cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a " Denotified tribe", [10] [11] the former " untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims. [4] [12]. In contrast to Stanley, earlier British colonial accounts from more than a century ago record worship of Khandoba across all castes including the various brahmin subcastes. [13] [7] [14]. The mainstream worship of Khandoba by the above mentioned Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, [7] as well as the royal families like Baroda Gaikwads and Indore Holkars consists of treating him as their family deity ( Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers. [15] One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)". [1]
Mr./Ms. Red Tiger, why are you so hung up on Kokanastha when there are references at least from two districts that mention this community worshipping Khandoba ? Also can you point out any other Marathi Hindu community not worshipping Khandoba ? Also,the beginning of the paragraph dwells on groups lower in hierachy engaging in the cult but then towards the end the paragraph mentions worship by Deshastha, CKP and the Maratha Royal families. In earlier talks with other editors, you have alluded to cultic worship being different from "regular" worship (sattvic bhakti) because the former has a more "exotic" (Rakshashi bhakti?) element to it. in the present article, there seems to be less emphasis on the sattvic element. My relations have a copper figure of Khandoba riding on a horse in their deoghar is worshiped on a daily basis with all the other gods. This type of sattvic worship does not get a mention in the article. I really would like to see this resolved because for me this paragraph has not been satisfactory at all. Like it or not, kokanstha, Eknath and Christian missionaries not withstanding, almost all Marathi Hindu communities worship or have worshipped Khandoba. By adding fluff like 60% of brahmins etc. or "what about kokanastha from Konkan", I feel you try to justify your original thesis that khandoba is the god of those Marathi people who are low in social hierachy Jonathansammy ( talk) 16:56, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Red tiger, Looks better now. However, not to my satisfaction yet. As I said before, we are not differentiating cult from domestic/ Kuldevta worship and that muddles the whole section for somebody not familiar with the topic. In your opinion, if cult and other worship is the same then you have to get rid of "nominal brahmin presence" and say "most brahmins or something similar. Also, when I get more information from my relations (backed, of course by suitable references), on the domestic worship and Khandoba ghatasthapna in Margashirsha , I will add it to this section.
As for response to your comments, can you name one Marathi Hindu community, and not one or two persons, who condemn Khandoba worship ? As established from references earlier, Kokanastha around parts of Maharashtra do worship him so you can not include that community. As you have said in earlier discussions , you are not Kokanastha so you do not have first hand knowledge on that matter. I am a brahmin and as such, I have to say, brahmins will adopt worship of any God as long as there is "Dakshina" to be made. The actor Sunil Dutt belonged to a community called Husseini brahmins who venerated Imam Hussein. A number of cults of Sufi saints, including Saibaba of Shirdi, have brahmin followers. Brahmins will also accept rituals from other religions like the muslim Satya pir and turn it into the most popular Hindu puja called Satyanarayan ! So basically brahmins are quite flexible as to who to venerate and are not always the leaders in accepting a new figure / God but merely follow other castes. Need I say any more on "Khandoba accepts "who are low in social hierachy", unlike some Brahmanical sects which kept them away" Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:06, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
When you say and I quote"Is there proof that the "true" Konkanasthas do worship Khandoba? Do Karhades or GSBs worship Khandoba?", you are casting doubt on all the references in this article and others, aren't you? Basically, you are saying the British records of 1871 are wrong but then by the same token one has the right to question everything Stanley and "criminal Gods Demon Devotees" say. As it has been mentioned before, months ago majority of the references in this article originated from just one book. Now that others have added material that dissents from your view point, you challenge that !! I don't think this befits an experienced editor like you. Sad really. By the way, Karhade are known to be Shakt and therefore mainly worship Devis rather then Dev. As mentioned earlier, GSB are not indigeneous to Maharashtra and therefore have their Kuldaivats like Shantadurga and Mangesh in Goa. These communities are really tiny and even if one excludes them and Kokanastha, one can say "vast majority of Marathi Hindu people from all strata worship Khandoba or as you are fond of saying, belong to his cult". Jonathansammy ( talk) 22:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
"Harijan" from 1871 ! Could a two year Mohandas Gandhi even speak any language let alone coin that term ? Otherwise OK for the time being or until I can dig out more references. Thanks for your cooperation. Jonathansammy ( talk) 12:42, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Khandoba. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Under this topic, it has been mentioned that Mahlsa and Banai, the wives of Martand, were incarnations of Shiva's TRADITIONAL WIVES. Parvati is Shiva's wife, but Ganga never was. Ganga was married to King Shantanu, as per Mahabharat. Also, there is no source mentioned for this information. This should be changed. Vkhat1 ( talk) 17:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:51, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
![]() | Khandoba has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Could somebody please break the last section of the page into sub paragraphs, as it is very unwieldy,possibly using sub headings. I don't have the knowledge of the text do it properly.
perfectblue 14:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The version i have created is a summary of your information. The information you had provided was in a hap hazard state. Thus to meet the wikipedia standards, i have put the info in proper English. Thatz all. I respect your sentiments for God Khandoba. Please let this version remain.
Please stop stop 'Tamil' Venu vs 'Maratha' Vishal war.
God bless. Khandoba cha chag bhal!
-- Redtigerxyz 08:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Grate. Thanks. But the destruction and infame done by Venu62 is very bad. -- Vishal1976
Dear Vishal,
Reply 2 ur "Human's canot(cannot) edite(edit) god's secred(sacred) , holy text. you can only translate." Wikipedia is not the place to translate 'god's holy text'. If the articles - on gita or Puranas or RAMAyana or Mahabharat was put translated then the article would be 1000s, maybe crores of pages!!!!!!! Same Implies to Malhari Mahatmya.
WhY don't you start a site instead where ur valuable input to this article is put? U know articles have some Kb limits.
God bless. Khandoba cha chag bhal!-- Redtigerxyz 15:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
yess. i have already this in my mind. But what about the vandalism committed by Venu62 and Meltitas etc. They gotta me banned and kidnapped my article Maratha clan system. You can gess that waht business these vandalist got to do whith these article except vandalism ?? They haven't put a single good , informative word to this articles but deliting good information. If the havent been to Jejuri or god Khandoba's temple , then what right they got to edite here. As they do not belong to Maratha caste , then one can get ther malicious , vwnoms intention to vandalise this articles. I have been to god Khandoba's temple several times and read , gathered information about Maratha caste in good , pious intention.And about your said objection that each articles have KB limits , but if Wikipedia autorities have no objection then why are you bothered ?? Those who hate god Khandoba , Maratha pepole and are non beliver do not have any right to edite here. Did i ever vandalise Tamil articles befoure this war started ?? Kee these in mind and consider my lawfuul rights .--- Vishal1976 -- Vishal Prakash Duhane
Wouldn't u be scared to read a 100 line para?-- Redtigerxyz 10:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I Vishal1976 hade transalated good information about god Jyotiba, but vandalist Venu62 and MelTitis vandalised that article and repetadely kidnnapeed the article without any justification . Can you put the short information about my post AS Shree Kedar Vijay Mr Redtigerxyz. You know that these vandalist have blocked me and they both are sock puppeters.
History at Jyotiba article :- 10:28, 20 March 2007 61.17.205.115
This is regarding the way the wives of Khandoba are addressed in the article. My suggestion would be to use Devi at start or end of the name. e.g Devi Mhalsa or Mhalsadevi. The current usage is improper and i strongly feel it should be changed. If anyone has any other suggestion please feel free discuss it. If none respond to this suggestion from me, i shall be changing the names to what i have suggested, say in a day or two. (Asro 09:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC))
The current edition of article god kandoba is vicious and defaming the god. It should be altered and those who are responsible should be punish in the court of law. In this article the god khandoba is potrated as sexy man, lusty for womens, marrying outcaste girls. If you see all the caste mention in this articles , even today they don't intermarry, marry outcaste. The meaning, tone of this article sounds very loudly to defame, insult the god Khandoba and Maratha caste and spread missleading information about god Khandoba in all world. Dose Wikipedia allows this vandalism ??? I Vishal Prakash Dudhane, User Vishal1976 have personaly visited both forts god Khandoba and did the ritual like Abhishek , Tali Bhandar etc many time in pious intention. I have talked the peoples, priests. Many of my Maratha relatives and other friends lives ther in Jejuri will certainly will not agree with current edition of this article. I expect argent, quick legal, ethical, moral actions against the vandalist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.140.159 ( talk) 08:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I bet you Redtigerxyz are not from Brahmin caste. Instead of asking refernce from those writers whose genetics, ansestory, genpool have no refrence, you should find the reasone why Brahmin caste are not allowed to enter the Khandoba temple of Jejuri and Bhavani temple of Tuljapur. This will throw a sunlight in your vicious innermind that you are carring and vandalisin all Maratha gods related article. Anyway you Brahmin are so poor, triffle to me that i even can't remember the splee of Brahmin word.-- Vishal1976 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.252.172 ( talk) 07:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's not have any personal attacks or vandalism, Vishal. Ekantik talk 03:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if any editor has a copy of the Malhari-mahatmya and if they could use it to fill in more details about the career of Khandoba? Right now the section is way too small and may look better if it is combined with the 'wives' section. I appreciate that Khandoba is generally not very well known as other divinities. Ekantik talk 03:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
As per WP:MOS, the list of temples would look much better further down the article after the 'worship' section. It isn't appropriate to begin an article with a list of temples rather than give information about Khandoba himself. What do other editors think?
P.S. I will data-mine some academic references about Khandoba when I get the time. Ekantik talk 03:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I will be reviewing this article for GA status, and should have the full review up within a couple of hours. Dana boomer ( talk) 23:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
To my mind Khandoba is another god in the Hindu pantheon like Kali, Ganesh or Vitthal or Balaji. People worshipping on of these gods don't normally have a problem also worshipping the other gods and so calling those worshipping Khandoba as belonging to his cult or sect may not be appropriate. The whole Khandoba article cites references from just one book, just one book ! Makes one wonder how it was ever given a good article status ! 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 13:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Copy-paste from my talk page: -- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:45, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Please stop adding the words nominal or few in front of Brahmin on the worship section. The colonial era gazetteer or documents based on that make abundantly clear that Khandoba was worshiped by deshastha. You correctly say, Deshastha have Khandoba as their kuldaiwat. The List of Deshastha Brahmin surnames have either Khandoba or Balaji as the male kuldaiwat with Khandoba being more common. At my deshastha grandfather's house, they used to have a 6 day Khandoba che Ghat (घट) in Margashirsha month. Given this, why are you so reluctant to add that deshastha worship Khandoba in the first sentence. Is it because you don't like brahmins being associated with so called low castes ? I know kokanastha don't worship Khandoba but practically all other Marathi castes do! Perhaps, this denotes the comparatively recent arrival of kokanstha to Maharashtra. However, that doesn't explain the adoption by a large number of kokanastha of Yogeshwari of Ambejogai as their kuldaiwat though! 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 17:23, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Redtigerxyz, How does having Khandoba as Kuldaiwat ( family deity) doesn't equate to worship ? 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 20:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Redtigerxyz The whole paragraph on Khandoba worship needs rewording to differentiate between cult worship and what it involves from benign worship by brahmin communities. I don't know what brahmin community you belong to but the The gazetteer's report for Satara says that Kokanastha worship him too. If by "cult" worship you mean blood sacrifice , sexual depravity etc. then that should be explicitly stated. When so many deshastha and upper caste Marathas have him as their kuldevata then , these families would have Khandoba's image in their household shrine (Deeoghar in Marathi) and the family will visit Jejuri or Pali after a wedding , munj etc. So the word few or nominal before brahmins may not be right when mentioning communities following Khandoba, unless you also explicitly state that "worship" applies to the more "exotic" cult worship of Khandoba. 24.187.26.104 ( talk) 14:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello Redtiger, Here are multiple references stating that brahmans worship Khandoba. the last one is from Satara talking about Kokanastha and Khandoba. I would say relying on just one reference, Criminal God.... etc. may not be a good idea for wikipedia. My maternal grandparents, who were yajurvedi deshastha had a metal khandoba on a horseback in their deoghar. Just like Navratri for Devi with "ghat basale" they used to have six days of ghat in Margashirsh with champasashthi as the last day of the festival. The various gazetteers reports also talk about worship by other so called lower castes which you may want to incorporate in the wikipedia article. Below are mostly articles talking about brahmin worship only [6], [7], [8], [9] 24.187.26.104 ( talk) 20:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Agree. the word sect would be more appropriate or even "panth". 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 16:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC) I take my words back from the previous post. To my mind Khandoba is another god in the Hindu pantheon like Kali, Ganesh or Vitthal or Balaji. People worshipping one of these gods don't normally have a problem also worshipping the other gods and so calling those worshipping Khandoba as belonging to his cult or sect may not be appropriate. The whole Khandoba article cites references from just one book, just one book ! Makes one wonder how it was ever given a good article status ? 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 13:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Well you cite 60 references, out of that 54 are from Hiltebeitel's book! May be that's why the article has the "cult flavor" and not the NPOV which it should have. One of your correspondence has cited a number of references from Gazetteers. These have a more neutral tone despite being written by the British at the height of their rule in india. 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 19:54, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Thanks.
Zuggernaut (
talk)
20:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)Burman p. 1227:"Sakama Bhakti is considered to be of a lower esteem and the lower caste people are considered to follow it. The worship of Khandoba cult is considered to be a part of Sakama Bhakti. Eknath, one of the most renowned Bhakti saints is also believed to have written disparagingly about the cult worship of Khandoba. ... In some places Khandoba is called Mallu Khan or Amjat Khan - the latter said to be a name given to Khandoba by Aurangzeb, who was compelled to flee from Khandoba's power." -- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Where did Burman discover that Sakam bhakti has a lower esteem because it is connected with people of so called lower castes? Sakama Bhakti is for the householder, nishkam bhakti is for those who have renounced the world. Sakama is translated by Sri La Bhakti Vedanta Prabhupada as frutive activities and Nishkam as pure devotion.
In Bhagwatgita 7.16 Shri Krishna describes the four types of Bhaktas;
chatur-vidha bhajante mam janah sukritinorjuna arto jijnasur artharthi dnyani cha bharatarsabha (7.16)
Arjuna (the best of the Bharats) four types of pious persons render devotional service to me, the distressed, the seeker of knowledge, the desirers of wealth, and men of wisdom.
Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada comments
“ | Adherents of the regulative principles of the scriptures, and they are called sukritinah, or those who obey the rules and regulations of scriptures, the moral and social laws, and are, more or less, devoted to the Supreme Lord. Out of these there are four classes of men—those who are sometimes distressed, those who are in need of money, those who are sometimes inquisitive, and those who are sometimes searching after knowledge of the Absolute Truth. These persons come to the Supreme Lord for devotional service under different conditions. These are not pure devotees, because they have some aspiration to fulfill in exchange for devotional service. Pure devotional service is without aspiration and without desire for material profit | ” |
Shri Vishvanath Chakravarti Thakur comments
“ | Four types worship me. Those who follow the rules of varnasrama (sukrtinah), worship me. Among them some desire relief from affliction, from calamities like sickness; some desire knowledge of atma or desire knowledge of scriptures with grammar; and some desire enjoyment in this life and the next with land, elephants, horses, women, gold and other such things. These worship me. These three are sakama grhasthas. The fourth type, the dnyani, a sannyasi with pure heart, is niskama. | ” |
Shridhar Swami comments:
“ | Sridhara Swami's Commentary
Only those who are virtuous and righteous have the qualification for devotion to the Supreme Lord. There are four categories of such qualified beings according to differences in their virtue. Those who performed virtuous deeds in previous lives worship Lord Krishna and fall into four categories: 1) artto are those distressed such as persecuted by disease. If they performed virtuous activities in past lives then they will have the opportunity to worship Lord Krishna otherwise they will be limited to worshipping minor gods and formless illusionary gods. 2) atharthi are the seekers of wealth who desire to have full facility for enjoyment in this life and their next. If they performed virtuous deeds in their past lives then they too will have the opportunity to worship Lord Krishna. 3) jijnasuh are those who desire self realisation to end the cycle of birth and death. If they performed virtuous actions in their past lives they will also have the opportunity to worship Lord Krishna. 4) dnyanis are those who have achieved atma tattva or realisation of the soul and know the Supreme Lord. If they have performed virtuous activities in their past lives then they will have the opportunity of advancing further and worshipping Lord Krishna. It should be understood that aspirants in all four categories will be forced to experience endless reincarnation until one finally evolves to attainment of devotion to Lord Krishna. |
” |
On what basis can Burman suggest that whether a bhakti is Sakam or Nishkam bhakti is related with caste and ritual? He is painting a grossly distorted picture of Hindu philosophy against what Hindu dnyanis have explained as quoted above. So Burman's views are either sheer nonsense or at best wp:fringe. Burman ibid starts with (not verbatim) "Shivaji may have been a great warrior". So who according to him can be considered unqualified great? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 02:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Does this article suggest that Ramoshi's are ex-criminals? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 03:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I guess other communities of India might say that the traditional occupation of all Marathi people was looting because that was one activity Shivaji and his successors used to built the Maratha empire. Anthropological surveys and other colonial era documents use disparaging terms about all castes including brahmins. I hope you get my point. So please be careful in how you use information about a particular community. 74.9.96.122 ( talk) 12:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Zugernaut, for a change I agree with you. I tried searching using Ramoshi +criminal and all my hits were based on British colonial era documents ( e.g. 1871 criminal tribes act ) Redtiger, Zuggernaut, we as wikipedia editors need ready references and because of copyright issues, the most easily available on the internet are from decades ago or a century ago. Unfortunately, the older ones happen to be written by europeans with views prevalent during that era. If we rely solely on these then the wikipedia article also becomes distorted. A case in point is my edit war since yesterday with Zuggernaut. I have been interested in the subject of "caste and race / genetics for nearly twenty years and have spent countless hours in the library searching for information and getting copies of articles of interest to me. ( and I am not a social scientist). I have a full copy of the Mastana et al article in annals of Human biology and my edits are faithfully based on the content of the article. However, since the article is not freely available on the web, Zuggernaut gets suspicious (perhaps natural). I have not shared the contents of that article because I just want to test the Wikipedia verifiability and ease of access policies to the fullest. Having said that, I think we should believe in Wikipedia:Assume good faith policy and not delete perfectly good edits at the first chance. Also given the times we are living in, we should also use some sensitivity in using terms such as "low castes" or ex-criminal.Shakher59 21:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs)
Redtiger, you contradict yourself ( in the Khandoba article). On one hand you say Khandoba is worshipped by communities on the fringe but then we mention deshastha brahmins and the maratha royal families as well. I think your views are blinkered by the two articles from "Criminal Gods and demon devotees" and that's why you associate Khandoba with communities on the margins of Maharashtrian society. The reality is that Khandoba more so than Vitthal is the "patron god" for all indigenous Marathi people because most castes (including deshastha brahmins) have him as their Kuldaiwat. And this is not original Research.Shakher59 13:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs)
Redtiger, you say and i quote "Khandoba cult also includes the masses and people from fringes of society, which is not always the case." when you say not always the case, are you saying that there are Hindu gods which worshipped only by hindu religious or social elites ( brahmins, kulin Maratha ,CKP etc)? if so, please let me know who these gods are ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Again Red has tripped on a rhetorical question. The Ramoshi's were branded criminal, like many other peoples by the British racist, criminal colonialists. Do you mean to say Red that just because Savarkar spent years in British prison for murder (conspiracy, abetment etc.), that makes his progency murderers?
Were the British criminals any better than Marathas, Pindaris, Thugs or others? Hodson first removed the clothes of Zafar’s sons and then shot them. Why did he remove their clothes, simple! he stole their jewels, must have been worth a fortune!! Iranians, Arabs, Turks, Afghans, Moghals, Siddis are known to have destroyed tens of thousands of temples and robbed their wealth, were the Marathas, Pindaris, Thugs any worse.[ [24]]. Srinagar’s only Jain temple was recently ransacked.[ [25]] Getting back to ASI and the Gazettes, we have a victorious people writing the history of their contest. They stamped the Pindaris, Thugs etc as criminal, condemned them to a life of brutal oppression. The British and Europeans have not yet stopped this racism, less than 60 years ago it was the Jews, the Roma and others by the Germans, the Jews have been rehabilitated, the Roma continued to suffer racial profiling, there are Europe’s unmenschen, but we are sourcing non-sense from these muck-raisers and anointing our people and our gods with it. It is such a shame. Shaker I had once suggested that sources not on line should be extensively quoted perhaps in footnotes, for peer review. Red don’t call Ramoshi’s or anybody else criminals. Ex or otherwise. It is saying that Vinod's pet-name is Kalya Taklya, only greatly sinister. Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 17:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
No mention of the above cry? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 17:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Redtiger, as we agreed in message exchange a few days ago, we should work on getting the whole section on Khandoba worship reworded. I also included several articles from gazeteers as references to back this up. The references mainly show that all brahmin castes including deshastha and Kokanastha worshipped Khandoba. Incidently, the references are from the 1800s. Please also read [27]. I hope you notice the word cult. Shakher59 17:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 ( talk • contribs)
“ | On fulfilment of the navas, Khandoba was offered children or the devotee would afflict pain by hook-swinging or fire-walking.[41] This type of worship is called Sakama Bhakti - worship done with an expectation of return and is considered "to be of a lower esteem".[42] | ” |
Navas is Sakam bhakti, how the navas is fulfilled, is secondary, why does this article smear Hindu deities and worship, by leading and false information? Does the source say that fire walking is Sakam bhakti, sheer nonsense and false information. Navas can be fulfilled by starting a school or sponsoring a scholar, or by offering 1.25 rupees, there is nothing gory about navas and Sakam bhakti fundamentally, how individuals fulfil it is as varied as there are devotees. The meaning of Sakam bhakti is given in adequate detail above, please modify this article Yogesh Khandke ( talk)
Redtiger, I agree your German reference says "few" but then we have references further on in the section that say that Deshastha as well as Konkanstha worship Khandoba. I also have references that say that Karhade brahmin worship Khandoba. Doesn't that constitute most of the brahmin community of Maharathra ? Now , you will once again say, oh, but "cultic worship" is different from "domestic worship". Are there vast differences ? If yu can show that then I will accept the word few before brahmins. My yajurvedi brahmin mother's side of the family had a Khandoba figure in their deoghar. I have seen many brahmin families perform "Gondhal" after a wedding or munj. So most of the "modes of worship" you mention are performed by Brahmins. Now sacrificing an animal or a bird may not be part of brahmin worship but would you regard that necessarily a "cultic" worship ?
I look forward to your comments. Anandbharti ( talk) 00:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
You say "classical brahmin", however classical brahmin way also involved taking part in the Ashvamedh Yajna when the victory horse was sacrificed ! What you should have really said is "contemporary brahmin way". Anyhow, that asides, I suggest we should change the text as follows: According to Stanley et al, Khandoba is worshipped mainly by communities lower in social hierachy but there are a few brahmin and even muslim adherents of the cult. However, earlier studies from 1800s show that Khandoba was worshipped by communities across the social strata that included royal Maratha clans as well as most brahmin communities of Maharathra.
I know you have fixation on Stanley's book and as mentioned before, your reliance on just that reference is not a good idea for an article with GA rating ! Well, you have said there are 100 other references but some of those are miinor and you try your best to reduce their importance. For example, when an old reference said Kokanstatha worship Khandoba, you tried to localize it by saying it only happened in Nasik district. Well, Nasik is not that far from Mumbai or Pune and the Nasik community therefore could not have been that isolated. Anyhow, I hope you get my point. Well , I have to thank you for keeping an eye on this article, however I still think relying on Stanley's reference kind of gives a sensationalized picture of Khandoba worship to those not familiar with Hindu culture. Anandbharti ( talk) 12:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Agree, not all kokanstha worship Khandoba but then they account for may be 20% of Maharashtrian brahmin population ( I will submit references later). So if you believe, I am telling the truth, then the sentence should read "a few brahmins do not not worship him". I am a deshastha but have never visited Jejuri and frankly I am not that religious, however, I do not want cultural practices of my relations to be a minority pursuit. Yes, I dug out the references for Ratnagiri and Nasik and other disricts too under an anonymous ID and we have had discussion on this section before . References from the 1800s say that ,hindus belonging to almost all Maharashtrian castes worshipped Khandoba with the exception of Kokanastha. Does this finding give credence to the theory that Kokanastha have not been in Maharashtra for that long? Don't get me wrong, half of my close relations have kokanstha brahmin blood in them. Here I am just trying to get the article to reflect reality rather than the POV of just one book, that's all. Anandbharti ( talk) 16:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Nobody is dragging you into Kokanstha v Deshastha debate. it is your intransigence, I don't understand. If 20% is is huge then what would you call the deshastha number which is reported to be much larger than kokanstha ? I could not find direct references to karhade, saraswat or devrukhe worshipping khandoba but then karhades are supposed to be shakt ( devotees of Shakti, the godess) and therefore more likely to worship Bhavani or Mahalaxmi etc. Saraswats are immigrants from goa and therefore revere Mangesh. Devrukhe, I have to say I could not find direct reference, however , they are a much smaller community than either deshastha or kokanastha. In my opinion , you believe, that unless one can write something verbatim from a reference then only it is allowed to be included into wikipedia, otherwise it is OR. A case in point is the sentence we have dispute on. That is straight from Sontheimer's book. As far as criticizing Khandoba worship by the kokanastha, you failed to mention the Christian missionaries. Do you expect christians, especially the missionaries , to respect any Hindu Gods or practices ? I don't even know why you cared to put that sentence in the article. As far as non-brahmin priests are concerned, that was the case with a number of shiva temples in Maharastra. from , first hand experience, I can tell you, the Gurav or shaiv brahmins, of Alandi resent the brahmins for usurping the Guravs' role in being priests to the samadshi of Sant Dnyaneshwar ! During my search I found another report that interestingly mentions Khandoba worship amongst brahmins by Kokanastha only. [31]. i will add that to the article.
I suggest we change "few " to "a significant number" and finish this matter. Anandbharti ( talk) 22:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Please go ahead and make the changes. Anandbharti ( talk) 14:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
This is OK, as per our discussion. That kind of says that indigenous Marathi hindu castes from all levels of social hierarchy worship him. Anandbharti ( talk) 22:02, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
I propose the following changes to the section worship. It unnecessarily goes into details as to who in which district worships Khandoba especially amongst the brahmins. Please comment.
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular. [1] The cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a " Denotified tribe", [2] [3] the former " untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims. [4] [5] Though the Brahmin presence in the cult is nominal, Deshastha Brahmins [6] [7] (constituting of 60% of Maharashtra's Brahmins), as well as the Kokanastha Brahmins - in Nashik and Satara - do worship Khandoba, some imitating the Deshastha Brahmins. [8] The Deshastha Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, [7] as well as the royal families like Gaikwads and Holkars worship Khandoba as their family deity ( Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by tribals, kings, merchants, Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers. [9] One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)". [1]
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular. [1] According to Stanley in 1977,the cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a " Denotified tribe", [2] [3] the former " untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims. [4] [5] However,in contrast to Stanley, earlier British colonial accounts from more than a century ago record worship of Khandoba across all castes including the various brahmin subcastes such as Deshastha, Kokanastha and Karhade. Deshastha Brahmins [6] [7] [8] The Deshastha Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, [7] as well as the royal families like Gaikwads and Holkars worship Khandoba as their family deity ( Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by tribals, kings, merchants, Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers. [9] One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)". [1]
Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
OK. In that case we have to explicitly separate the the two modes of worship. How about this ? Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular. [1]. Furthermore, the mode of worship can be differentiated into the "cultic" and mainstream. According to Stanley in 1977, the cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a " Denotified tribe", [10] [11] the former " untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims. [4] [12]. In contrast to Stanley, earlier British colonial accounts from more than a century ago record worship of Khandoba across all castes including the various brahmin subcastes. [13] [7] [14]. The mainstream worship of Khandoba by the above mentioned Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, [7] as well as the royal families like Baroda Gaikwads and Indore Holkars consists of treating him as their family deity ( Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers. [15] One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)". [1]
Mr./Ms. Red Tiger, why are you so hung up on Kokanastha when there are references at least from two districts that mention this community worshipping Khandoba ? Also can you point out any other Marathi Hindu community not worshipping Khandoba ? Also,the beginning of the paragraph dwells on groups lower in hierachy engaging in the cult but then towards the end the paragraph mentions worship by Deshastha, CKP and the Maratha Royal families. In earlier talks with other editors, you have alluded to cultic worship being different from "regular" worship (sattvic bhakti) because the former has a more "exotic" (Rakshashi bhakti?) element to it. in the present article, there seems to be less emphasis on the sattvic element. My relations have a copper figure of Khandoba riding on a horse in their deoghar is worshiped on a daily basis with all the other gods. This type of sattvic worship does not get a mention in the article. I really would like to see this resolved because for me this paragraph has not been satisfactory at all. Like it or not, kokanstha, Eknath and Christian missionaries not withstanding, almost all Marathi Hindu communities worship or have worshipped Khandoba. By adding fluff like 60% of brahmins etc. or "what about kokanastha from Konkan", I feel you try to justify your original thesis that khandoba is the god of those Marathi people who are low in social hierachy Jonathansammy ( talk) 16:56, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Red tiger, Looks better now. However, not to my satisfaction yet. As I said before, we are not differentiating cult from domestic/ Kuldevta worship and that muddles the whole section for somebody not familiar with the topic. In your opinion, if cult and other worship is the same then you have to get rid of "nominal brahmin presence" and say "most brahmins or something similar. Also, when I get more information from my relations (backed, of course by suitable references), on the domestic worship and Khandoba ghatasthapna in Margashirsha , I will add it to this section.
As for response to your comments, can you name one Marathi Hindu community, and not one or two persons, who condemn Khandoba worship ? As established from references earlier, Kokanastha around parts of Maharashtra do worship him so you can not include that community. As you have said in earlier discussions , you are not Kokanastha so you do not have first hand knowledge on that matter. I am a brahmin and as such, I have to say, brahmins will adopt worship of any God as long as there is "Dakshina" to be made. The actor Sunil Dutt belonged to a community called Husseini brahmins who venerated Imam Hussein. A number of cults of Sufi saints, including Saibaba of Shirdi, have brahmin followers. Brahmins will also accept rituals from other religions like the muslim Satya pir and turn it into the most popular Hindu puja called Satyanarayan ! So basically brahmins are quite flexible as to who to venerate and are not always the leaders in accepting a new figure / God but merely follow other castes. Need I say any more on "Khandoba accepts "who are low in social hierachy", unlike some Brahmanical sects which kept them away" Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:06, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
When you say and I quote"Is there proof that the "true" Konkanasthas do worship Khandoba? Do Karhades or GSBs worship Khandoba?", you are casting doubt on all the references in this article and others, aren't you? Basically, you are saying the British records of 1871 are wrong but then by the same token one has the right to question everything Stanley and "criminal Gods Demon Devotees" say. As it has been mentioned before, months ago majority of the references in this article originated from just one book. Now that others have added material that dissents from your view point, you challenge that !! I don't think this befits an experienced editor like you. Sad really. By the way, Karhade are known to be Shakt and therefore mainly worship Devis rather then Dev. As mentioned earlier, GSB are not indigeneous to Maharashtra and therefore have their Kuldaivats like Shantadurga and Mangesh in Goa. These communities are really tiny and even if one excludes them and Kokanastha, one can say "vast majority of Marathi Hindu people from all strata worship Khandoba or as you are fond of saying, belong to his cult". Jonathansammy ( talk) 22:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
"Harijan" from 1871 ! Could a two year Mohandas Gandhi even speak any language let alone coin that term ? Otherwise OK for the time being or until I can dig out more references. Thanks for your cooperation. Jonathansammy ( talk) 12:42, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Khandoba. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Under this topic, it has been mentioned that Mahlsa and Banai, the wives of Martand, were incarnations of Shiva's TRADITIONAL WIVES. Parvati is Shiva's wife, but Ganga never was. Ganga was married to King Shantanu, as per Mahabharat. Also, there is no source mentioned for this information. This should be changed. Vkhat1 ( talk) 17:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:51, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)