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The former seems to be unjustifiable. The vast majority of literature in English that uses the Armenian word, rather than just the phrase "cross stone", spell it as "khatchkar". I suggest that the title for this page be changed to "khatchkar" Meowy 17:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I also note that in the references, the title of the book "Armenian Khatchkars" (Editions Erebuni, 1978) had been altered to "Armenian Khachkars". I have changed it to the actual title. Meowy 17:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The article says "Reports (see RFE/RL)" ; can anyone point out what "RFE/RL" is that I am meant to see ? John Vandenberg 13:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
RFE/RL stands for Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty. Meowy 21:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an ananymous editor who has been making persistant edits to insert the following text in the Amenaprkich section of the entry.
These Khachkars provide inscriptions which often contain important historical information. This tradition went all the way back to the Armenian masters who made cuneiform inscriptions in the Kingdoms of Armani, Mitanni and Aratta in the third and second millennia BC. [1]
Amenaprkich khatchkars do not contain any more epigraphical content than normal khatchkars, and to suggest that there is a timeline connection between khatchkars depicting the Crucifiction and cuneiform inscriptions on Uruartian and similar stele is just laughable. Meowy 19:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no Urartu in that list, this is about Armenian architects from the ancient times, of Armani etc. etc.. 75.28.36.1 22:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Amenaprkich is an ancient Khachkar dating back to the time where Mitanni and Aratta were still active. These are identically to Khachkars and are called it as well but a more ancient type, it provides historical information. The connection is what it says, it is a Khachkar where Armenian inhabitance has always been, it is clear stated please do not remove it. 75.24.236.167 02:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
References
I just want to note that the destruction section, and the heavy emphasis of destruction in Armenia both within that section and in the article as a whole seems completely wrong to me. The only source is this "Khachkar.am" website which cites no sources at all. I have never heard of these problems and though I can believe that the occasional khachkar is moved - this description of widespread movement of them in such a superstitious country seems quite unlikely, and to suggest that khachkars which are being removed are then destroyed is almost laughable. Then the claim that Noratus is being "encroached on three sides" suggests that something bad is happening there already, which it is not. Again. No proof that I can make out, certainly no notable khachkars affected, and the large emphasis on this in an article which needs a lot more info on the khachkar itself I think needs to change. -- RaffiKojian 13:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alban_xa%C3%A7_da%C5%9Flar%C4%B1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.42.44 ( talk) 09:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Please, look at article Artsakh. "It was the tenth province of the Kingdom of Armenia from 189 BC until 387 AD and afterwards a region of Caucasian Albania." Nagorno-Karabakh is a present name of the territory. That's why I think it's correct to write Nagorny-Karabakh. Wertuose ( talk) 05:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
С раннего средневековья (с 5 века как минимум) Арцах был населен армянами, это пишут все влиятельные авторы по теме.-- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 19:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Басни как раз рассказывают азербайджанские "историки" [2], и как раз ИХ концепции осуждаются и оцениваются как лженаучные. Якобсон. Хьюсен, Шнирельман и десятки других давно разоблачили фальшивки таких фальсификаторов как Давуд Ахундов или Фарида Мамедова. А самое смешное то, что вы сами признаете, что Хачкары идентифицируются как "албанские" ТОЛЬКО в Азербайджане, но в обсуждении гордо пишете "Вы забываете что знаете эту самую историю только на том уровне на котором она представлена в Армении.". Какой историк, кроме азерских книжников называет Хачкары "албанским" ? Я уверен, что вопрос не дошел до ваших мозгов, т.к. не в первые беседую с фанатиком -- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 20:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
The az interwiki is obviously wrong: the az page does not have it. Sardur ( talk) 05:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Это фальсификация истории. Вот единственный факт, который можно констатировать. "Албан хачдашляри" часть шовинистической антиармянской компании, целью которого является наглое искажение истории Карабаха, якобы для "доказывания" его не принадлежности к армянам. Ученые с мировым именем, такие как Якобсон, Хьюсен и другие, дали свою оценку. Никакого интервики не будет.-- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 23:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
You've already received your answer from the other users - there are no such thing as "Albanian khachdashes". Khachdash is just a dishonest, crude, distorted Turkic translation of the word khachk'ar. Khach is an Armenian word for "cross" and "k'ar" is the Armenian word for stone. That they are a distinctive part of Armenian culture and art is undeniable and all respectable historians agree on this. The word "khachdash" was first put into circulation by Azerbaijani "scholars" in the 1960s, who had a difficult time explaining how and why the khachkars in the Azerbaijan SSR had Armenian inscriptions and were in every sense carved by Armenians. "Dash" is the Turkish word for "stone", and so it's obvious where they got their translation from. Like other Christian Armenian monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh, such as Gandzasar and Amaras, the khachkars have been subjected to the full assault by Azeris, without any historical basis, to rechristen them not as Armenian monuments, but Caucasian Albanian. And when they realized that after 40 years no one was willing to believe their lies, they just decided to destroy them, so that no one would ever associate it with Armenians again.
As Taron mentioned above, numerous respected academics, such as Karen Yuzbashyan, Robert Hewsen and Aleksandr Yakobson, have decried these attempts at falsification and have completely demolished Azeri arguments that these khachkars have anything to do with a people who were largely Armenianized and Georgianized in the High Middle Ages. Azeris can, and do, write whatever they want on their Wikipedia - they describe Artashat (anachronistically called "Qəmərli") as a part of "Western Azerbaijan" and the article on Armenia, for reasons quite well known, begins in 1828 A.D., neglecting to mention about three thousand years of ancient and medieval history! A better case against this level of distortion can be made but this should be enough to dissuade anyone from continuing to add the laughable "Alban khachdashlari". Pseudo-historiography has no place here.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
keep in mind that some **<redacted slur>** in work of azerbaijani propoganda like taddy sweetchowski call yerevan "western azerbaijan." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.33.90 ( talk • contribs)
A. Jakobson about khachkars and azeri falsifications (mythical "khachdashes") [3]-- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 23:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
You don't understand that, here is not a place to prove your historical achievements. In Azerbaijan this subjects are named "Alban xaç daşları", irrespective of you want it or not. So interwiki must be here, and your statements about falsifications of history and the reference to different Armenian sources do not concern a theme. -- Wertuose ( talk) 13:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
{{ editprotected|It seems that, users participating in discussion has no objections to adding interwiki. So please, solve this problem.}} -- Wertuose ( talk) 20:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Can you show us a source where a serious, peer-reviewed, scholar calls these things "khachdashes", or even attributes them a Caucasian Albanian kingdom?
The only way I can see myself accepting the inclusion of such an interwiki is when the name of the article on the Azeri Wiki is changed to "Ermeni Khachkarlari", i.e., Armenian khachkars and if the editors correctly describe the khachkar as an integral part of Armenian art. The word "Khachdash" was falsely created by Azeri and Turkish historians to shroud their Armenian identity. There are no third-party sources ascribing these khachkars to Caucasian Albania, a minor kingdom that disappeared in the ninth-tenth centuries, and in fact none actually exist. I don't see such a thing happening; you cannot constantly complain to the administrators that a number of editors are the obstacles when the material you want to insert is disingenuously dishonest. They can call these khachkars whatever they want in Azerbaijan but keep it out of here because the scholarship is unanimous: these are "Armenian khachkars".-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Simple question: is az:Alban xaç daşları article on the same topic as this? Period. I really don't want to see any other disputes about the content of this article. It either is the same topic or it's not. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 07:36, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I've reinserted it myself. What does "it's propaganda" have to do if it's on the same subject? If the issue is that THIS article is propaganda (and I better see a good rational for that argument), then discuss it. If it is THAT article is propaganda, go there and argue it. Otherwise, I'm going with the fact that multiple wikis respect that, over some random "it's propaganda" comments. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 03:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The article appears locked and uneditable. Any explanations? If any sysop has done this indefinately he or she may be de-sysopped. - maxrspct ping me 15:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
An interesting issue has arisen in the English-language Wikipedia Khachkar entry. It involves using an interwiki link to an allegedly equivalent Azeri-language Wikipedia article whose content is actually completely different from the English-language article. Meowy 19:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Btw, I'm discussing the issue on WP:az. I got this answer: " That article seems to be about Albanian khachkar. But I also see a section which contrasts it with the Armenian khachkar.". Sardur ( talk) 10:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
There appears to be some confusion about which guidelines and policies apply, and as that's something that I know more about than average, I'd like to share what I know:
Keep the link. Appreciating all that has been said above, and without having made any attempt to translate the Azeri language article, the NPOV and nationalist issues in it are to be sorted out by people who can read and write Azeri. The subject - the stones - is the same. It would be fair to find a reputable source and use it to point out any relevant attempts to rewrite the history of these stones. And that source might be acceptable even if not in English. But the link should stay. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
-- 85.100.42.44 ( talk) 16:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
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Can someone explain please what is meant by "have become the possession" in following sentence? "A large portion of khachkars, which were created in historic Armenia and surrounding regions, in modern times have become the possession of Turkey, Azerbaijan, and partly Georgia and Iran." It is a not unambiguous explanation. There are only historic Georgian areas possessed in modern times by Armenia and not vice versa. Yes, there are many Armenian Khachkars in Georgia but they were made on Georgian soil by Armenians. Thus they couldn't "become" possession of Georgia because they were from then on the possession of Georgia. The term "possession" is used incorrect with regard to Georgia.-- Serafita ( talk) 19:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
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The former seems to be unjustifiable. The vast majority of literature in English that uses the Armenian word, rather than just the phrase "cross stone", spell it as "khatchkar". I suggest that the title for this page be changed to "khatchkar" Meowy 17:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I also note that in the references, the title of the book "Armenian Khatchkars" (Editions Erebuni, 1978) had been altered to "Armenian Khachkars". I have changed it to the actual title. Meowy 17:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The article says "Reports (see RFE/RL)" ; can anyone point out what "RFE/RL" is that I am meant to see ? John Vandenberg 13:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
RFE/RL stands for Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty. Meowy 21:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an ananymous editor who has been making persistant edits to insert the following text in the Amenaprkich section of the entry.
These Khachkars provide inscriptions which often contain important historical information. This tradition went all the way back to the Armenian masters who made cuneiform inscriptions in the Kingdoms of Armani, Mitanni and Aratta in the third and second millennia BC. [1]
Amenaprkich khatchkars do not contain any more epigraphical content than normal khatchkars, and to suggest that there is a timeline connection between khatchkars depicting the Crucifiction and cuneiform inscriptions on Uruartian and similar stele is just laughable. Meowy 19:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no Urartu in that list, this is about Armenian architects from the ancient times, of Armani etc. etc.. 75.28.36.1 22:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Amenaprkich is an ancient Khachkar dating back to the time where Mitanni and Aratta were still active. These are identically to Khachkars and are called it as well but a more ancient type, it provides historical information. The connection is what it says, it is a Khachkar where Armenian inhabitance has always been, it is clear stated please do not remove it. 75.24.236.167 02:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
References
I just want to note that the destruction section, and the heavy emphasis of destruction in Armenia both within that section and in the article as a whole seems completely wrong to me. The only source is this "Khachkar.am" website which cites no sources at all. I have never heard of these problems and though I can believe that the occasional khachkar is moved - this description of widespread movement of them in such a superstitious country seems quite unlikely, and to suggest that khachkars which are being removed are then destroyed is almost laughable. Then the claim that Noratus is being "encroached on three sides" suggests that something bad is happening there already, which it is not. Again. No proof that I can make out, certainly no notable khachkars affected, and the large emphasis on this in an article which needs a lot more info on the khachkar itself I think needs to change. -- RaffiKojian 13:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alban_xa%C3%A7_da%C5%9Flar%C4%B1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.42.44 ( talk) 09:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Please, look at article Artsakh. "It was the tenth province of the Kingdom of Armenia from 189 BC until 387 AD and afterwards a region of Caucasian Albania." Nagorno-Karabakh is a present name of the territory. That's why I think it's correct to write Nagorny-Karabakh. Wertuose ( talk) 05:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
С раннего средневековья (с 5 века как минимум) Арцах был населен армянами, это пишут все влиятельные авторы по теме.-- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 19:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Басни как раз рассказывают азербайджанские "историки" [2], и как раз ИХ концепции осуждаются и оцениваются как лженаучные. Якобсон. Хьюсен, Шнирельман и десятки других давно разоблачили фальшивки таких фальсификаторов как Давуд Ахундов или Фарида Мамедова. А самое смешное то, что вы сами признаете, что Хачкары идентифицируются как "албанские" ТОЛЬКО в Азербайджане, но в обсуждении гордо пишете "Вы забываете что знаете эту самую историю только на том уровне на котором она представлена в Армении.". Какой историк, кроме азерских книжников называет Хачкары "албанским" ? Я уверен, что вопрос не дошел до ваших мозгов, т.к. не в первые беседую с фанатиком -- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 20:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
The az interwiki is obviously wrong: the az page does not have it. Sardur ( talk) 05:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Это фальсификация истории. Вот единственный факт, который можно констатировать. "Албан хачдашляри" часть шовинистической антиармянской компании, целью которого является наглое искажение истории Карабаха, якобы для "доказывания" его не принадлежности к армянам. Ученые с мировым именем, такие как Якобсон, Хьюсен и другие, дали свою оценку. Никакого интервики не будет.-- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 23:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
You've already received your answer from the other users - there are no such thing as "Albanian khachdashes". Khachdash is just a dishonest, crude, distorted Turkic translation of the word khachk'ar. Khach is an Armenian word for "cross" and "k'ar" is the Armenian word for stone. That they are a distinctive part of Armenian culture and art is undeniable and all respectable historians agree on this. The word "khachdash" was first put into circulation by Azerbaijani "scholars" in the 1960s, who had a difficult time explaining how and why the khachkars in the Azerbaijan SSR had Armenian inscriptions and were in every sense carved by Armenians. "Dash" is the Turkish word for "stone", and so it's obvious where they got their translation from. Like other Christian Armenian monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh, such as Gandzasar and Amaras, the khachkars have been subjected to the full assault by Azeris, without any historical basis, to rechristen them not as Armenian monuments, but Caucasian Albanian. And when they realized that after 40 years no one was willing to believe their lies, they just decided to destroy them, so that no one would ever associate it with Armenians again.
As Taron mentioned above, numerous respected academics, such as Karen Yuzbashyan, Robert Hewsen and Aleksandr Yakobson, have decried these attempts at falsification and have completely demolished Azeri arguments that these khachkars have anything to do with a people who were largely Armenianized and Georgianized in the High Middle Ages. Azeris can, and do, write whatever they want on their Wikipedia - they describe Artashat (anachronistically called "Qəmərli") as a part of "Western Azerbaijan" and the article on Armenia, for reasons quite well known, begins in 1828 A.D., neglecting to mention about three thousand years of ancient and medieval history! A better case against this level of distortion can be made but this should be enough to dissuade anyone from continuing to add the laughable "Alban khachdashlari". Pseudo-historiography has no place here.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
keep in mind that some **<redacted slur>** in work of azerbaijani propoganda like taddy sweetchowski call yerevan "western azerbaijan." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.33.90 ( talk • contribs)
A. Jakobson about khachkars and azeri falsifications (mythical "khachdashes") [3]-- Taron Saharyan ( talk) 23:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
You don't understand that, here is not a place to prove your historical achievements. In Azerbaijan this subjects are named "Alban xaç daşları", irrespective of you want it or not. So interwiki must be here, and your statements about falsifications of history and the reference to different Armenian sources do not concern a theme. -- Wertuose ( talk) 13:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
{{ editprotected|It seems that, users participating in discussion has no objections to adding interwiki. So please, solve this problem.}} -- Wertuose ( talk) 20:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Can you show us a source where a serious, peer-reviewed, scholar calls these things "khachdashes", or even attributes them a Caucasian Albanian kingdom?
The only way I can see myself accepting the inclusion of such an interwiki is when the name of the article on the Azeri Wiki is changed to "Ermeni Khachkarlari", i.e., Armenian khachkars and if the editors correctly describe the khachkar as an integral part of Armenian art. The word "Khachdash" was falsely created by Azeri and Turkish historians to shroud their Armenian identity. There are no third-party sources ascribing these khachkars to Caucasian Albania, a minor kingdom that disappeared in the ninth-tenth centuries, and in fact none actually exist. I don't see such a thing happening; you cannot constantly complain to the administrators that a number of editors are the obstacles when the material you want to insert is disingenuously dishonest. They can call these khachkars whatever they want in Azerbaijan but keep it out of here because the scholarship is unanimous: these are "Armenian khachkars".-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Simple question: is az:Alban xaç daşları article on the same topic as this? Period. I really don't want to see any other disputes about the content of this article. It either is the same topic or it's not. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 07:36, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I've reinserted it myself. What does "it's propaganda" have to do if it's on the same subject? If the issue is that THIS article is propaganda (and I better see a good rational for that argument), then discuss it. If it is THAT article is propaganda, go there and argue it. Otherwise, I'm going with the fact that multiple wikis respect that, over some random "it's propaganda" comments. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 03:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The article appears locked and uneditable. Any explanations? If any sysop has done this indefinately he or she may be de-sysopped. - maxrspct ping me 15:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
An interesting issue has arisen in the English-language Wikipedia Khachkar entry. It involves using an interwiki link to an allegedly equivalent Azeri-language Wikipedia article whose content is actually completely different from the English-language article. Meowy 19:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Btw, I'm discussing the issue on WP:az. I got this answer: " That article seems to be about Albanian khachkar. But I also see a section which contrasts it with the Armenian khachkar.". Sardur ( talk) 10:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
There appears to be some confusion about which guidelines and policies apply, and as that's something that I know more about than average, I'd like to share what I know:
Keep the link. Appreciating all that has been said above, and without having made any attempt to translate the Azeri language article, the NPOV and nationalist issues in it are to be sorted out by people who can read and write Azeri. The subject - the stones - is the same. It would be fair to find a reputable source and use it to point out any relevant attempts to rewrite the history of these stones. And that source might be acceptable even if not in English. But the link should stay. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
-- 85.100.42.44 ( talk) 16:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
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An image used in this article,
File:Khachkar in Etchmiadzin Cathedral.jpeg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Khachkar in Etchmiadzin Cathedral.jpeg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 14:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC) |
Can someone explain please what is meant by "have become the possession" in following sentence? "A large portion of khachkars, which were created in historic Armenia and surrounding regions, in modern times have become the possession of Turkey, Azerbaijan, and partly Georgia and Iran." It is a not unambiguous explanation. There are only historic Georgian areas possessed in modern times by Armenia and not vice versa. Yes, there are many Armenian Khachkars in Georgia but they were made on Georgian soil by Armenians. Thus they couldn't "become" possession of Georgia because they were from then on the possession of Georgia. The term "possession" is used incorrect with regard to Georgia.-- Serafita ( talk) 19:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)