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The article explains that the seven-sharp and seven-flat key signatures are rare but they have nonetheless been used. Why have they? Also, the article doesn't explain how modes play into the whole thing. I would imagine that F lydian uses the same key signature as C major, right?
-- Furrykef 05:16, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps someone should include in the articles for each key a list of songs or pieces in it? I know some do but it's not ocmprehensive enough.
That's not very logical. Most songs can be arranged in various keys by various arrangers. Look in a few songbooks that you think have at least one song in common. Look up the song in each songbook. Are they in the same key?? If the answer is yes, then try either another song or a third songbook with the same song. Georgia guy 00:50, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Is is logical!! List the songs in the recorded keys beside the artist who made it most popular. This would be an excellent resource to vocalist and music teachers who are trying to teach Guitar or Recorder to elementary kids (my situation) and you are limited on time and what they can retain. A list like this would allows folks like myself to teach a tune with A D E to 3rd through 5th grade class on the open strings of the Guitar. Since music is one of the biggest problems in public school being worked into the schedule reasonably, we are forced to utilize as many tricks as we can to improve retention, attention and cover the National Music Standards all at once.
Mr. Kreston Smith Munford Elementary Munford TN
Bartlett Music Academy and Store CEO and Private Teacher — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.4.168.5 ( talk) 16:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Anyone know of a widely used non-diatonic key signature not in the table?? Georgia guy 21:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to arrange a piece of music using the music software Sibelius, and am having trouble with the key signature. The music shows a key signature with a G flat in. I was wondering if anyone knew the name of this signature so I could enter it in Sibelius? Thanks! Hawk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.31.38 ( talk • contribs) 23:36, July 8, 2006
"...if you see a piece with a one-sharp key signature, you cannot be certain it is in G major."
The composition will be in either G major or E minor. Of course it may fleetingly move elsewhere, but if it were not principally in G maj or E min it would have a different key signature.
Relative major / Relative minor, could be better explained on this page.
If the piece is tonal it will will be composed around a tonic note, which is G if major, E if minor or some other note for other mode.
Karl 10 July 08:35 UT
We really should include a section on modes expressed through key signatures (e.g. D flat and A flat = ahavo-rabo mode) and acknowledge that these exist. Amber388 15:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you decide the key signature of a piece tuned between e.g. C and C-sharp? (Well, to be pedantic, a piece tuned a quarter-tone over C...) 85.228.206.181 12:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The start of the page says that a key signature denotes that each note is played a semitone higher or lower. This is inaccurate, a key signature shows that a note is played one half step higher or lower, not a semitone (quarter step). 72.70.158.183 21:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Dan
Who deleted the key signature graphics? unsigned comment by User:71.174.72.72 — Wahoofive ( talk) 03:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The comment was posted because, for a time, several of the images were missing.
Now they are back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.71.23.54 ( talk) 22:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
I am curious about which pitches Christian Schubart actually heard when writing of characteristics for each key signature. Modern musicians hear A to be 440 or higher, but the standard tuning of most keyboard instruments of Schubart's time (1806) was around 430. If so, would these characteristics be best heard when centered around 430, or are the characteristics "transposable"?
This turned out to be wrong so I changed it to whole tone. It's not helpful when you are trying to learn this stuff and wikipedia tells you things like this :P WikiLlama 15:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
See the discussion at Talk:Accidental (music)#Inflections vs accidentals concerning the definition of "accidental" and its relation to sharp and flat signs and key signatures. Hyacinth ( talk) 21:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
This article could use a sheet music example showing a key sig following a double bar. This image does that, but it seems a bit large for the purpose. -- Jtir ( talk) 21:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Is this just me, or does this article sound less like and article and more like a how-to guide, with all the mnemonics etc? Fairweather01 ( talk) 22:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I've added Table of Keys, which I believe is valuable as it clearly shows all the key signatures with appropriate changes in sharps and flats. I'm not sure about the name of the section, however. I've settled for Table of Keys but maybe some other name would be more appropriate. Feel free to post any thoughts about the table. OutOfTimer Wanna chat? 04:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I've made a number of layout improvements and edits. I believe the article is much clearer now and simply looks better. The most important changes are:
Reference 2 at the bottom of the page, when the page is viewed in Print format, includes extraneous material which prevents the page from printing correctly. My editing skills aren't good enough to fix this. Could someone with better skills than mine fix this? RegT ( talk) 23:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Why are flats notated as question-marks in the article text? In some places sharps also appear as question-marks, making the text very confusing to read.
Also, the Circle of Fifths chart shows that F# is equivalent to Gb, but it fails to show the enharmonic correcpondences for Cb/B and C#/Db. ~ ~ ~ ~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.241.2 ( talk) 04:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
The article's good.
Suggested improvement - show how key signatures of naturals are used to change from the current key to CM/Am during a piece of music. Don't need to give examples of all sigs. I'd do it, but don't have any software to make the graphics.
Kevgermany ( talk) 22:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Showing a key signature change from a key with more sharps/flats to a key with fewer sharps/flats (the choice matters; it cannot be a change from sharps to flats or flats to sharps.) Specifically, whether a change from D major to G major key signature is written:
C natural, F sharp
or
F sharp, C natural
I've seen this kind of change written in both ways. Georgia guy ( talk) 17:34, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
How popular is it for certain composers to put sharps or flats in octaves other than the standard locations?? For your info, check out:
http://www.guitarland.com/Music10/MusFund/Maj_Key_Sig/MajKeySig.html
and look at the info on where the sharps or flats are placed. A few Wikipedia articles say that the standard rules mentioned on that page are occasionally violated by certain composers. Specifically, check out info in G major, B major, and C-flat major. They reveal that certain composers violate the rules on where to place the sharps or flats. Georgia guy ( talk) 23:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification? Hyacinth ( talk) 13:35, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
In each of the articles about individual key signatures, there is something about the mood or feel that the key signature creates. Maybe there should be something in the article about that. E-sub-n ( talk) 00:10, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Play a song twice, first in the key of G major, then in E-flat major. Compare how each version of the song sounds. To me, G major sounds like a "daytime" key; while E-flat major is more "nighttime". (If this example of a problem is not the subject of this section, please illustrate a problem that is.) Georgia guy ( talk) 18:02, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be the feel of different keys, rather than their key signatures (which are notational conventions)? Hyacinth ( talk) 00:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I notice an optical illusion in the sharp key signature images. The sharps on lines look thinner than the sharps on the spaces. Georgia guy ( talk) 15:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Why and where is this article too technical? How should it be cleaned up? Hyacinth ( talk) 00:42, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
However, the connection is not absolute; a piece with a one-sharp key signature is not necessarily in the key of G major, and likewise, a piece in G major may not always be written with a one-sharp key signature.
This sentence is found in the article. Any common reasons for this?? Here's an example:
I was using Musipedia to search for the melody of "Parade of the Wooden Soldiers"; specifically the first few notes:
The toy shop door is locked up tight and everything is quiet for the night
The arrangement of the result I got was in C major, but they put in the G major key signature, putting a natural sign on the F that goes with the word "locked" and in the phrase "quiet for"; the notes G-F♯-F♮ were written, which is correct, but the F♯ was written without a sharp sign because they gave it the G major key signature even though the true key is C major. Is it common for songs (arrangements of songs already written; not necessarily songs newly written) to have the wrong key signature?? The sentence being discussed definitely needs a lot of attention, especially by someone who can give common reasons for this. Georgia guy ( talk) 14:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
The mnemonics are getting out of hand. It's become an attraction for creativity and not encyclopedic. WikiHow is for stuff like that. — Wahoofive ( talk) 15:15, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm a poor writer, so feel free to edit for grammer, etc., but I suggest the article should state something along these lines at the very beginning: Musical notation uses a set of horizontal lines with spaces between them, called the staff, to indicate the correct pitch to be played by placing a marker, called a note, on the appropriate line or space. The staff would be too large and difficult to read if it had a line or space for every pitch so the staff that's used has fewer lines and spaces but accomodates the extra, homeless, pitches by using symbols, called sharps and flats, to indicate a given note on the staff is to be a pitch that is not indicated normally by the line or space it's on. When a piece of music routinely uses these homeless pitches that require sharps or flats on given lines or spaces, it is more convenient to place the sharps or flats on the proper places at the beginning of the score and save the trouble of placing them everywhere they would otherwise be needed. The collection of sharps or flats at the beginning of the score is called a key signature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jklmnopqrst ( talk • contribs) 11:03, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The images of staves indicating key signatures (in the "Table" section) are inconsistently sized and proportioned. I reduced the size of the recently added ones (8 sharps/flats), but they're in a different format from the others. I'm hoping someone fluent with the graphics involved can sort this out. - Special-T ( talk) 22:36, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
The neological names of the 15 clavisignatures (key signatures) are;
1: "Zeroaccident"/"zeroalteration": Zero sharp and zero flat;
2: "Heptadiesis"/"sevensharp" and "fiveflat"/"pentabemol": Seven sharps and five flats
3: "Didiesis"/"twosharp": Two sharps;
4: "Threeflat"/"tribemol": Three flats;
5: "Foursharp"/"tetradiesis": Four sharps;
6: "Monobemol"/"oneflat": one flat;
7: "Hexadiesis"/"sixsharp" and "hexabemol"/"sixflat": Six sharps and six flats;
8: "Monodiesis"/"onesharp": One sharp;
9: "Fourflat"/"tetrabemol": Four flats;
10: "Threesharp"/"tridiesis": Three sharps;
11: "Dibemol"/"twoflat": Two flats;
12: "Fivesharp"/"pentadiesis" and "heptabemol"/"sevenflat": Five sharps and seven flats.
189.50.182.128 ( talk) 11:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
The following passage appears in the lede: "Each symbol applies to all notes in the same pitch class—for example, a flat on the third line of the treble staff (as in the diagram) indicates that all notes appearing as Bs are played as B-flats. This convention was not universal until the late Baroque and early Classical period..."
While it's true that some earlier signatures contain accidentals in more than one octave, I don't think it was ever the case that the key signature didn't apply to all octaves — a sharp on the top line of the treble staff also applied to the bottom space since the inception of signatures. Unless someone has some evidence to the contrary, I'm going to rewrite this to make it clearer.
Also, the term "pitch class" is unnecessary technical jargon. I'll remove that too. — Wahoofive ( talk) 16:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I decided to take out the reference to signatures with accidentals on multiple octaves, since it's not part of standard notation; such historical rarities don't really deserve to be in the lede (it's mentioned lower down under "Earlier notation styles"). I also, despite your pushback, took out the reference to pitch classes (although you can re-add it if you really want), partly because it's not really accurate: B flat and A sharp are the same pitch class, but B flat and the B an octave above or below are different classes. The signature changes the pitch class of the affected notes, but this seems overly burdensome to have to explain. — Wahoofive ( talk) 16:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think anyone reading a general article on key signatures is likely to have seen anything except 12TET tuning and standard key signatures. Info about other tuning systems or key sigs with double/triple flats/sharps is good to mention here, but it needs to be very clear to the general reader that these situations don't occur in any written music they're likely to encounter. 99% of professional musicians won't even encounter these (most of us have never even seen C-flat as a key sig). These general music articles often become unclear because they drift into technical details or rare situations. - Special-T ( talk) 19:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Key signature article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
The article explains that the seven-sharp and seven-flat key signatures are rare but they have nonetheless been used. Why have they? Also, the article doesn't explain how modes play into the whole thing. I would imagine that F lydian uses the same key signature as C major, right?
-- Furrykef 05:16, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps someone should include in the articles for each key a list of songs or pieces in it? I know some do but it's not ocmprehensive enough.
That's not very logical. Most songs can be arranged in various keys by various arrangers. Look in a few songbooks that you think have at least one song in common. Look up the song in each songbook. Are they in the same key?? If the answer is yes, then try either another song or a third songbook with the same song. Georgia guy 00:50, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Is is logical!! List the songs in the recorded keys beside the artist who made it most popular. This would be an excellent resource to vocalist and music teachers who are trying to teach Guitar or Recorder to elementary kids (my situation) and you are limited on time and what they can retain. A list like this would allows folks like myself to teach a tune with A D E to 3rd through 5th grade class on the open strings of the Guitar. Since music is one of the biggest problems in public school being worked into the schedule reasonably, we are forced to utilize as many tricks as we can to improve retention, attention and cover the National Music Standards all at once.
Mr. Kreston Smith Munford Elementary Munford TN
Bartlett Music Academy and Store CEO and Private Teacher — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.4.168.5 ( talk) 16:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Anyone know of a widely used non-diatonic key signature not in the table?? Georgia guy 21:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to arrange a piece of music using the music software Sibelius, and am having trouble with the key signature. The music shows a key signature with a G flat in. I was wondering if anyone knew the name of this signature so I could enter it in Sibelius? Thanks! Hawk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.31.38 ( talk • contribs) 23:36, July 8, 2006
"...if you see a piece with a one-sharp key signature, you cannot be certain it is in G major."
The composition will be in either G major or E minor. Of course it may fleetingly move elsewhere, but if it were not principally in G maj or E min it would have a different key signature.
Relative major / Relative minor, could be better explained on this page.
If the piece is tonal it will will be composed around a tonic note, which is G if major, E if minor or some other note for other mode.
Karl 10 July 08:35 UT
We really should include a section on modes expressed through key signatures (e.g. D flat and A flat = ahavo-rabo mode) and acknowledge that these exist. Amber388 15:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you decide the key signature of a piece tuned between e.g. C and C-sharp? (Well, to be pedantic, a piece tuned a quarter-tone over C...) 85.228.206.181 12:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The start of the page says that a key signature denotes that each note is played a semitone higher or lower. This is inaccurate, a key signature shows that a note is played one half step higher or lower, not a semitone (quarter step). 72.70.158.183 21:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Dan
Who deleted the key signature graphics? unsigned comment by User:71.174.72.72 — Wahoofive ( talk) 03:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The comment was posted because, for a time, several of the images were missing.
Now they are back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.71.23.54 ( talk) 22:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
I am curious about which pitches Christian Schubart actually heard when writing of characteristics for each key signature. Modern musicians hear A to be 440 or higher, but the standard tuning of most keyboard instruments of Schubart's time (1806) was around 430. If so, would these characteristics be best heard when centered around 430, or are the characteristics "transposable"?
This turned out to be wrong so I changed it to whole tone. It's not helpful when you are trying to learn this stuff and wikipedia tells you things like this :P WikiLlama 15:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
See the discussion at Talk:Accidental (music)#Inflections vs accidentals concerning the definition of "accidental" and its relation to sharp and flat signs and key signatures. Hyacinth ( talk) 21:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
This article could use a sheet music example showing a key sig following a double bar. This image does that, but it seems a bit large for the purpose. -- Jtir ( talk) 21:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Is this just me, or does this article sound less like and article and more like a how-to guide, with all the mnemonics etc? Fairweather01 ( talk) 22:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I've added Table of Keys, which I believe is valuable as it clearly shows all the key signatures with appropriate changes in sharps and flats. I'm not sure about the name of the section, however. I've settled for Table of Keys but maybe some other name would be more appropriate. Feel free to post any thoughts about the table. OutOfTimer Wanna chat? 04:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I've made a number of layout improvements and edits. I believe the article is much clearer now and simply looks better. The most important changes are:
Reference 2 at the bottom of the page, when the page is viewed in Print format, includes extraneous material which prevents the page from printing correctly. My editing skills aren't good enough to fix this. Could someone with better skills than mine fix this? RegT ( talk) 23:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Why are flats notated as question-marks in the article text? In some places sharps also appear as question-marks, making the text very confusing to read.
Also, the Circle of Fifths chart shows that F# is equivalent to Gb, but it fails to show the enharmonic correcpondences for Cb/B and C#/Db. ~ ~ ~ ~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.241.2 ( talk) 04:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
The article's good.
Suggested improvement - show how key signatures of naturals are used to change from the current key to CM/Am during a piece of music. Don't need to give examples of all sigs. I'd do it, but don't have any software to make the graphics.
Kevgermany ( talk) 22:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Showing a key signature change from a key with more sharps/flats to a key with fewer sharps/flats (the choice matters; it cannot be a change from sharps to flats or flats to sharps.) Specifically, whether a change from D major to G major key signature is written:
C natural, F sharp
or
F sharp, C natural
I've seen this kind of change written in both ways. Georgia guy ( talk) 17:34, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
How popular is it for certain composers to put sharps or flats in octaves other than the standard locations?? For your info, check out:
http://www.guitarland.com/Music10/MusFund/Maj_Key_Sig/MajKeySig.html
and look at the info on where the sharps or flats are placed. A few Wikipedia articles say that the standard rules mentioned on that page are occasionally violated by certain composers. Specifically, check out info in G major, B major, and C-flat major. They reveal that certain composers violate the rules on where to place the sharps or flats. Georgia guy ( talk) 23:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification? Hyacinth ( talk) 13:35, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
In each of the articles about individual key signatures, there is something about the mood or feel that the key signature creates. Maybe there should be something in the article about that. E-sub-n ( talk) 00:10, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Play a song twice, first in the key of G major, then in E-flat major. Compare how each version of the song sounds. To me, G major sounds like a "daytime" key; while E-flat major is more "nighttime". (If this example of a problem is not the subject of this section, please illustrate a problem that is.) Georgia guy ( talk) 18:02, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be the feel of different keys, rather than their key signatures (which are notational conventions)? Hyacinth ( talk) 00:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I notice an optical illusion in the sharp key signature images. The sharps on lines look thinner than the sharps on the spaces. Georgia guy ( talk) 15:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Why and where is this article too technical? How should it be cleaned up? Hyacinth ( talk) 00:42, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
However, the connection is not absolute; a piece with a one-sharp key signature is not necessarily in the key of G major, and likewise, a piece in G major may not always be written with a one-sharp key signature.
This sentence is found in the article. Any common reasons for this?? Here's an example:
I was using Musipedia to search for the melody of "Parade of the Wooden Soldiers"; specifically the first few notes:
The toy shop door is locked up tight and everything is quiet for the night
The arrangement of the result I got was in C major, but they put in the G major key signature, putting a natural sign on the F that goes with the word "locked" and in the phrase "quiet for"; the notes G-F♯-F♮ were written, which is correct, but the F♯ was written without a sharp sign because they gave it the G major key signature even though the true key is C major. Is it common for songs (arrangements of songs already written; not necessarily songs newly written) to have the wrong key signature?? The sentence being discussed definitely needs a lot of attention, especially by someone who can give common reasons for this. Georgia guy ( talk) 14:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
The mnemonics are getting out of hand. It's become an attraction for creativity and not encyclopedic. WikiHow is for stuff like that. — Wahoofive ( talk) 15:15, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm a poor writer, so feel free to edit for grammer, etc., but I suggest the article should state something along these lines at the very beginning: Musical notation uses a set of horizontal lines with spaces between them, called the staff, to indicate the correct pitch to be played by placing a marker, called a note, on the appropriate line or space. The staff would be too large and difficult to read if it had a line or space for every pitch so the staff that's used has fewer lines and spaces but accomodates the extra, homeless, pitches by using symbols, called sharps and flats, to indicate a given note on the staff is to be a pitch that is not indicated normally by the line or space it's on. When a piece of music routinely uses these homeless pitches that require sharps or flats on given lines or spaces, it is more convenient to place the sharps or flats on the proper places at the beginning of the score and save the trouble of placing them everywhere they would otherwise be needed. The collection of sharps or flats at the beginning of the score is called a key signature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jklmnopqrst ( talk • contribs) 11:03, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The images of staves indicating key signatures (in the "Table" section) are inconsistently sized and proportioned. I reduced the size of the recently added ones (8 sharps/flats), but they're in a different format from the others. I'm hoping someone fluent with the graphics involved can sort this out. - Special-T ( talk) 22:36, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
The neological names of the 15 clavisignatures (key signatures) are;
1: "Zeroaccident"/"zeroalteration": Zero sharp and zero flat;
2: "Heptadiesis"/"sevensharp" and "fiveflat"/"pentabemol": Seven sharps and five flats
3: "Didiesis"/"twosharp": Two sharps;
4: "Threeflat"/"tribemol": Three flats;
5: "Foursharp"/"tetradiesis": Four sharps;
6: "Monobemol"/"oneflat": one flat;
7: "Hexadiesis"/"sixsharp" and "hexabemol"/"sixflat": Six sharps and six flats;
8: "Monodiesis"/"onesharp": One sharp;
9: "Fourflat"/"tetrabemol": Four flats;
10: "Threesharp"/"tridiesis": Three sharps;
11: "Dibemol"/"twoflat": Two flats;
12: "Fivesharp"/"pentadiesis" and "heptabemol"/"sevenflat": Five sharps and seven flats.
189.50.182.128 ( talk) 11:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
The following passage appears in the lede: "Each symbol applies to all notes in the same pitch class—for example, a flat on the third line of the treble staff (as in the diagram) indicates that all notes appearing as Bs are played as B-flats. This convention was not universal until the late Baroque and early Classical period..."
While it's true that some earlier signatures contain accidentals in more than one octave, I don't think it was ever the case that the key signature didn't apply to all octaves — a sharp on the top line of the treble staff also applied to the bottom space since the inception of signatures. Unless someone has some evidence to the contrary, I'm going to rewrite this to make it clearer.
Also, the term "pitch class" is unnecessary technical jargon. I'll remove that too. — Wahoofive ( talk) 16:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I decided to take out the reference to signatures with accidentals on multiple octaves, since it's not part of standard notation; such historical rarities don't really deserve to be in the lede (it's mentioned lower down under "Earlier notation styles"). I also, despite your pushback, took out the reference to pitch classes (although you can re-add it if you really want), partly because it's not really accurate: B flat and A sharp are the same pitch class, but B flat and the B an octave above or below are different classes. The signature changes the pitch class of the affected notes, but this seems overly burdensome to have to explain. — Wahoofive ( talk) 16:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think anyone reading a general article on key signatures is likely to have seen anything except 12TET tuning and standard key signatures. Info about other tuning systems or key sigs with double/triple flats/sharps is good to mention here, but it needs to be very clear to the general reader that these situations don't occur in any written music they're likely to encounter. 99% of professional musicians won't even encounter these (most of us have never even seen C-flat as a key sig). These general music articles often become unclear because they drift into technical details or rare situations. - Special-T ( talk) 19:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)