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-- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 12:43, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
-- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 14:39, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
I know he barely featured for anyone besides Ipswich, but the career section looks somewhat lopsided, is there any additional info we can find from his later club "career"? The Rambling Man ( talk) 17:15, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Dweller, I think this is easily good enough to go to GAN. What do you reckon? Or anyone else for that matter? The Rambling Man ( talk) 21:11, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Kosack ( talk · contribs) 08:42, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
I'll have a look at this one, will post a review as soon as possible.
Kosack (
talk) 08:42, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Initial review
I started making notes on this one earlier in the week but Mattythewhite took care of most of the issues I originally found so there's little else I can really find. A few minor issues and suggestions above but this is a well written piece. Placed on hold for now to look at the comments above. Kosack ( talk) 14:52, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
I think we need a footnote that some source spell it Rafferty. I presume the book has it without the r? That'd be the most likely to be authoritative, IMHO. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Was he really 15 when he went for the trial he didn't attend? What does he say in his autobiog about why he didn't travel across town? Money? Fear? And was he 18 when he signed for Ipswich? What happened in the 2-3 years in between the two? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 15:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
There's 9 years to go into that and it's the key encyclopedic part of his life, apart from the 9 caps. TRM, want to go the onerous course of expanding it, while I concentrate on copyediting elsewhere? Can go into more than one subsection. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Did he have a regular partner in crime in the Town side, presumably another centre half, but maybe a midfielder he was known to play well with? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
The visit to Carlisle when he should have been en route to Scotland for another U-23 match, is it better in the International section or where it currently is? The Rambling Man ( talk) 15:11, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
What does anyone think is needed here before we start to copyedit etc before FAC please? The Rambling Man ( talk) 17:50, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Dweller, for you weave into something decent:
Margaret (Maggie), met her at a youth club in the late 1960s/early 1970s, "love at first sight" (Finch, p. 33). Married her in 1974 (Finch, p. 54). Featured in the 15 August 1974 Radio Times in article about "footballers' wives", they were still living in a "modest club owned house" (Finch p. 55). The "going AWOL" en route to Pittodrie was recently after the birth of their first child Emma (Finch, p. 61). At the time of the bonfire incident, Maggie was eight month pregnant, Beattie didn't want her to see him, rumours afoot that she had thrown a chip pan full of hot oil over him (Finch, p. 82). Got homesick during their time in Norway, eventually returning to run a pub in Suffolk (Finch, p. 139). Maggie was a florist by trade (Finch, p. 142). Soon after Beattie's pancreatitis hospitalisation, Maggie herself became ill and developed diabetes (Finch, p. 147). He and Maggie started working as "general help" at a Portman Road hotel, which turned out to be more of a brothel; he wouldn't tolerate her working there so they quit (Finch, p. 149). During mid-1980s, Maggie was diagnosed with MS and eventually confined to a wheelchair (Finch, p. 151). Three daughters are Emma, Sarah & Louise (Finch, p. 151). The Rambling Man ( talk) 12:52, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Details on his funeral. There is some momentum behind him getting some kind of a memorial at Portman Road too, so that's worth keeping an eye on too. Nothing should stop it being progressed to FAC, as it's all just simple facts and work in hand. The Rambling Man ( talk) 17:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Mick Mills also playing every goal in the season should be a footnote. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:20, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
And the Mills and Brian Talbot bit. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 14:58, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Why did the Stoke crowd get angry with Beattie when Hunter was the villain on that occasion? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:35, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Dweller it looks okay to me, the only sticking point for me is "Beattie found himself unemployed. " starting that post-football section. It grates. Maybe this needs a little expanding based on a couple of the notes I made on Maggie above (e.g. running the hotel), but it needs splicing appropriately. The Rambling Man ( talk) 15:17, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
"The offer was soon withdrawn following Ipswich's reluctance to release Beattie to their local rivals" - if he'd retired, how could Ipswich prevent him? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:44, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
1) No apostrophe? 2) "soon after" is vague - is that what the source says?
-- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
Dweller, it's the Beat's funeral today, and with what happened at Portman Road yesterday, a dark day for everyone involved with the club. After this, is there anything you can think that is preventing us from FAC? The Rambling Man ( talk) 07:17, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Lots of material lifted from Kevin's autobigraphy. Just wondering what permission you have to use this?
Ealdgyth Cheers, I think between Robby.is.on (thanks) and me, we've covered them all. The Rambling Man ( talk) 11:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Ealdgyth, do you think we're ready for WP:FAC? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 01:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed you removed the stats for his spells with Boro and Colchester citing conflicting sources. I was just wondering what the sources were as all of the ones I would typically use, and are believed reliable, would have supported the four league matches for each. Kosack ( talk) 08:37, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Came across this article from the Harwich chairman, perhaps it could be of some use? APM ( talk) 18:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
The infobox says that he made 228 appearances and scored 24 goals at Ipswich, and 234 appearances and 24 goals in his entire career. That's just nine appearances for eight different clubs after Ipswich! In the article it says he made six appearances for Colchester, five for Middlesbrough, and five for Nybergsund IL-Trysil, and scored over 60 goals for Kongsberg IF (presumably not in a single game). The total figure in the infobox needs to be either updated or removed. 2001:BB6:4708:9258:1195:1A39:A412:1368 ( talk) 08:45, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
I am genuinely perplexed. There are two sensible guidelines, WP:NOPIPE and WP:NOTBROKEN, which explain why redirects are preferable to pipes. I have made an effort to explain how all of that applies to this article. I am asked not to " deliberately introduce redirects" but there is no explanation as to why. What am I missing here? Surtsicna ( talk) 22:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with linking to redirects. In reverting Surtsicna's edits, the article was returned to a version where centre-half was piped to Defender (association football) in one place and Association football positions#Centre-back. There is no good reason to have the same term piped to two different articles. If the redirect is linked, the term will go to the same article. If an article is ever written for "centre-half", the links will point to the new article. If the section header <no wiki>#Centre-back</no wiki> is ever changed, it will be far easier to fix any links made through a redirect than links made by piping.
There are other redirects in this article; England national under-23 football team was what Beattie played for, and articles could be written for teams prior to 1977. In the MOS for players, the redirect Striker (association football) is linked.
Avoiding redirects by piping is HARMFUL when the redirect is a subtopic that could be an article. It is not helpful to make Wikipedia links less precise. "Piping links solely to avoid redirects is generally a time-wasting exercise that can actually be detrimental"; the reverse is not true. Ipswich Town/Ipswich Town F. C. is a different matter, but blanket reversion of precise links to subtopics via redirects is not an improvement to Wikipedia. Plantdrew ( talk) 00:05, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Anyone looking for the link to WP:LAME? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:17, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
As a total outsider, I find Kosack's first comemnt in this section extremely persuasive. Can we all get on now please? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 12:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Once again, the article has centre-half piped to two different places (and the link to Defender_(association_football) would be better as Defender_(association_football)#Centre-back). Two edits by Surtsicna that had nothing to do with pipes were reverted. Please review all edits before reverting. It is not appropriate to revert edits just because they were made by editor you are having a disagreement with when some of their edits have nothing to do with the point of contention.
I don't believe that the FA reviewers actually signed off on having centre-half linked to two different articles. It was something that was overlooked (it appears what happened is that JennyOz pointed out that the infobox had Beattie listed as a central defender, and Dweller changed it to centre-half with a piped link, not realizing that centre-half used a different piped link in the body of the article). FAs are supposed to follow the Manual of Style. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Linking#Redirects supports linking to redirects rather than piping. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Linking#Piped_links_and_redirects_to_sections_of_articles especially supports linking to redirects rather than piped links to sections of articles. The piped links to subtopics were overlooked by FA reviewers, not explicitly approved by them.
Of 9 Featured Article on football players that give positions that don't have independent articles, 5 link to redirects and 4 use piped links to bypass redirects.
NOTBROKEN is not a two-way street. Redirect links are prefered in most cases, and shouldn't usually be replaced by piped links.
This seems to be a broader issue with football editors having an attitude towards redirect links that is out of step with the rest of Wikipedia. I spent way too much time reading through WP:FOOTBALL talk page archives yesterday (this is the first football related article I'm aware of having edited). Linking to British football clubs in the style of [[Ipswich Town F.C.|Ipswich Town]] has consensus among football editors (although this is not documented anywhere outside of talk page archives). As I understand it, this because British football clubs are commonly referred to without the F.C., but are frequently ambiguous with another topic (e.g. a city). F.C. is used in titles for consistent disambiguation, but is not displayed in text reflecting common usage. OK, that's fine. However, German football clubs are frequently referred to with initials such as VfB ( WP:KARLSRUHER), so should not take piped links that omit the initials. Some football editors have taken what is a sensible practice for linking British football clubs to mean that all links to redirects should be avoided. That is not in line with broader practice on Wikipedia.
There is a thread in WPLFOOTBALL archives where an editor asks where a potential link to "asdet" should be piped to. It shouldn't be piped anywhere. There should be a redirect for asdet so the next editor who wants to link it doesn't have to figure out all over again where it should go. In this thread from 2 days ago, an editor is questioning the use of piped links to not display F.C. for American football clubs. Does this practice really have consensus for non-British clubs (it certainly doesn't for German ones)? In this thread from 2 weeks ago, an editor notices that linking practice for British clubs means that players such as Willis Rippon are linked to a club that didn't exist at the time they played for it, and the club they played for isn't mentioned anywhere in the linked article. How does that help readers?
There is nothing wrong with linking to redirects. In some cases there is nothing wrong with using pipes to bypass a redirect. Pipes should not be used to bypass a redirect that is a subtopic of the article it targets. Pipes should not be used to bypass a redirect that is a historical name of an entity. Plantdrew ( talk) 15:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the following sentence is strictly correct: "Beattie accepted a lit cigarette from a fan and smoked it whilst collecting his FA Cup winner's medal in 1978". Having just watched footage on YouTube he certainly wasn't smoking a cigarette whilst actually collecting his medal though it's possible that he had one in his hand whilst walking up and may have dropped it before receiving his medal. Nevertheless, I think the sentence is at the very least a bit misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solatha ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Kevin Beattie is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 16, 2019. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kevin Beattie article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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-- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 12:43, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
-- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 14:39, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
I know he barely featured for anyone besides Ipswich, but the career section looks somewhat lopsided, is there any additional info we can find from his later club "career"? The Rambling Man ( talk) 17:15, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Dweller, I think this is easily good enough to go to GAN. What do you reckon? Or anyone else for that matter? The Rambling Man ( talk) 21:11, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Kosack ( talk · contribs) 08:42, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
I'll have a look at this one, will post a review as soon as possible.
Kosack (
talk) 08:42, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Initial review
I started making notes on this one earlier in the week but Mattythewhite took care of most of the issues I originally found so there's little else I can really find. A few minor issues and suggestions above but this is a well written piece. Placed on hold for now to look at the comments above. Kosack ( talk) 14:52, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
I think we need a footnote that some source spell it Rafferty. I presume the book has it without the r? That'd be the most likely to be authoritative, IMHO. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Was he really 15 when he went for the trial he didn't attend? What does he say in his autobiog about why he didn't travel across town? Money? Fear? And was he 18 when he signed for Ipswich? What happened in the 2-3 years in between the two? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 15:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
There's 9 years to go into that and it's the key encyclopedic part of his life, apart from the 9 caps. TRM, want to go the onerous course of expanding it, while I concentrate on copyediting elsewhere? Can go into more than one subsection. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Did he have a regular partner in crime in the Town side, presumably another centre half, but maybe a midfielder he was known to play well with? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
The visit to Carlisle when he should have been en route to Scotland for another U-23 match, is it better in the International section or where it currently is? The Rambling Man ( talk) 15:11, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
What does anyone think is needed here before we start to copyedit etc before FAC please? The Rambling Man ( talk) 17:50, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Dweller, for you weave into something decent:
Margaret (Maggie), met her at a youth club in the late 1960s/early 1970s, "love at first sight" (Finch, p. 33). Married her in 1974 (Finch, p. 54). Featured in the 15 August 1974 Radio Times in article about "footballers' wives", they were still living in a "modest club owned house" (Finch p. 55). The "going AWOL" en route to Pittodrie was recently after the birth of their first child Emma (Finch, p. 61). At the time of the bonfire incident, Maggie was eight month pregnant, Beattie didn't want her to see him, rumours afoot that she had thrown a chip pan full of hot oil over him (Finch, p. 82). Got homesick during their time in Norway, eventually returning to run a pub in Suffolk (Finch, p. 139). Maggie was a florist by trade (Finch, p. 142). Soon after Beattie's pancreatitis hospitalisation, Maggie herself became ill and developed diabetes (Finch, p. 147). He and Maggie started working as "general help" at a Portman Road hotel, which turned out to be more of a brothel; he wouldn't tolerate her working there so they quit (Finch, p. 149). During mid-1980s, Maggie was diagnosed with MS and eventually confined to a wheelchair (Finch, p. 151). Three daughters are Emma, Sarah & Louise (Finch, p. 151). The Rambling Man ( talk) 12:52, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Details on his funeral. There is some momentum behind him getting some kind of a memorial at Portman Road too, so that's worth keeping an eye on too. Nothing should stop it being progressed to FAC, as it's all just simple facts and work in hand. The Rambling Man ( talk) 17:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Mick Mills also playing every goal in the season should be a footnote. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:20, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
And the Mills and Brian Talbot bit. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 14:58, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Why did the Stoke crowd get angry with Beattie when Hunter was the villain on that occasion? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:35, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Dweller it looks okay to me, the only sticking point for me is "Beattie found himself unemployed. " starting that post-football section. It grates. Maybe this needs a little expanding based on a couple of the notes I made on Maggie above (e.g. running the hotel), but it needs splicing appropriately. The Rambling Man ( talk) 15:17, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
"The offer was soon withdrawn following Ipswich's reluctance to release Beattie to their local rivals" - if he'd retired, how could Ipswich prevent him? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:44, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
1) No apostrophe? 2) "soon after" is vague - is that what the source says?
-- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
Dweller, it's the Beat's funeral today, and with what happened at Portman Road yesterday, a dark day for everyone involved with the club. After this, is there anything you can think that is preventing us from FAC? The Rambling Man ( talk) 07:17, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Lots of material lifted from Kevin's autobigraphy. Just wondering what permission you have to use this?
Ealdgyth Cheers, I think between Robby.is.on (thanks) and me, we've covered them all. The Rambling Man ( talk) 11:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Ealdgyth, do you think we're ready for WP:FAC? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 01:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed you removed the stats for his spells with Boro and Colchester citing conflicting sources. I was just wondering what the sources were as all of the ones I would typically use, and are believed reliable, would have supported the four league matches for each. Kosack ( talk) 08:37, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Came across this article from the Harwich chairman, perhaps it could be of some use? APM ( talk) 18:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
The infobox says that he made 228 appearances and scored 24 goals at Ipswich, and 234 appearances and 24 goals in his entire career. That's just nine appearances for eight different clubs after Ipswich! In the article it says he made six appearances for Colchester, five for Middlesbrough, and five for Nybergsund IL-Trysil, and scored over 60 goals for Kongsberg IF (presumably not in a single game). The total figure in the infobox needs to be either updated or removed. 2001:BB6:4708:9258:1195:1A39:A412:1368 ( talk) 08:45, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
I am genuinely perplexed. There are two sensible guidelines, WP:NOPIPE and WP:NOTBROKEN, which explain why redirects are preferable to pipes. I have made an effort to explain how all of that applies to this article. I am asked not to " deliberately introduce redirects" but there is no explanation as to why. What am I missing here? Surtsicna ( talk) 22:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with linking to redirects. In reverting Surtsicna's edits, the article was returned to a version where centre-half was piped to Defender (association football) in one place and Association football positions#Centre-back. There is no good reason to have the same term piped to two different articles. If the redirect is linked, the term will go to the same article. If an article is ever written for "centre-half", the links will point to the new article. If the section header <no wiki>#Centre-back</no wiki> is ever changed, it will be far easier to fix any links made through a redirect than links made by piping.
There are other redirects in this article; England national under-23 football team was what Beattie played for, and articles could be written for teams prior to 1977. In the MOS for players, the redirect Striker (association football) is linked.
Avoiding redirects by piping is HARMFUL when the redirect is a subtopic that could be an article. It is not helpful to make Wikipedia links less precise. "Piping links solely to avoid redirects is generally a time-wasting exercise that can actually be detrimental"; the reverse is not true. Ipswich Town/Ipswich Town F. C. is a different matter, but blanket reversion of precise links to subtopics via redirects is not an improvement to Wikipedia. Plantdrew ( talk) 00:05, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Anyone looking for the link to WP:LAME? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 10:17, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
As a total outsider, I find Kosack's first comemnt in this section extremely persuasive. Can we all get on now please? -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 12:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Once again, the article has centre-half piped to two different places (and the link to Defender_(association_football) would be better as Defender_(association_football)#Centre-back). Two edits by Surtsicna that had nothing to do with pipes were reverted. Please review all edits before reverting. It is not appropriate to revert edits just because they were made by editor you are having a disagreement with when some of their edits have nothing to do with the point of contention.
I don't believe that the FA reviewers actually signed off on having centre-half linked to two different articles. It was something that was overlooked (it appears what happened is that JennyOz pointed out that the infobox had Beattie listed as a central defender, and Dweller changed it to centre-half with a piped link, not realizing that centre-half used a different piped link in the body of the article). FAs are supposed to follow the Manual of Style. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Linking#Redirects supports linking to redirects rather than piping. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Linking#Piped_links_and_redirects_to_sections_of_articles especially supports linking to redirects rather than piped links to sections of articles. The piped links to subtopics were overlooked by FA reviewers, not explicitly approved by them.
Of 9 Featured Article on football players that give positions that don't have independent articles, 5 link to redirects and 4 use piped links to bypass redirects.
NOTBROKEN is not a two-way street. Redirect links are prefered in most cases, and shouldn't usually be replaced by piped links.
This seems to be a broader issue with football editors having an attitude towards redirect links that is out of step with the rest of Wikipedia. I spent way too much time reading through WP:FOOTBALL talk page archives yesterday (this is the first football related article I'm aware of having edited). Linking to British football clubs in the style of [[Ipswich Town F.C.|Ipswich Town]] has consensus among football editors (although this is not documented anywhere outside of talk page archives). As I understand it, this because British football clubs are commonly referred to without the F.C., but are frequently ambiguous with another topic (e.g. a city). F.C. is used in titles for consistent disambiguation, but is not displayed in text reflecting common usage. OK, that's fine. However, German football clubs are frequently referred to with initials such as VfB ( WP:KARLSRUHER), so should not take piped links that omit the initials. Some football editors have taken what is a sensible practice for linking British football clubs to mean that all links to redirects should be avoided. That is not in line with broader practice on Wikipedia.
There is a thread in WPLFOOTBALL archives where an editor asks where a potential link to "asdet" should be piped to. It shouldn't be piped anywhere. There should be a redirect for asdet so the next editor who wants to link it doesn't have to figure out all over again where it should go. In this thread from 2 days ago, an editor is questioning the use of piped links to not display F.C. for American football clubs. Does this practice really have consensus for non-British clubs (it certainly doesn't for German ones)? In this thread from 2 weeks ago, an editor notices that linking practice for British clubs means that players such as Willis Rippon are linked to a club that didn't exist at the time they played for it, and the club they played for isn't mentioned anywhere in the linked article. How does that help readers?
There is nothing wrong with linking to redirects. In some cases there is nothing wrong with using pipes to bypass a redirect. Pipes should not be used to bypass a redirect that is a subtopic of the article it targets. Pipes should not be used to bypass a redirect that is a historical name of an entity. Plantdrew ( talk) 15:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the following sentence is strictly correct: "Beattie accepted a lit cigarette from a fan and smoked it whilst collecting his FA Cup winner's medal in 1978". Having just watched footage on YouTube he certainly wasn't smoking a cigarette whilst actually collecting his medal though it's possible that he had one in his hand whilst walking up and may have dropped it before receiving his medal. Nevertheless, I think the sentence is at the very least a bit misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solatha ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 2 November 2020 (UTC)