![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The Yahoo group referenced as a resource [1] is set to invited members-only. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll delete it as inaccessible. - Willmcw 20:47, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That has become a moot point because Professor MacDonald has apparently swamped the criticism by several hundred words of rebuttal. This article is growing into an autobiography by the professor. Maybe we ought to create a MacDonald responds to his critics section for his additions. I notice that he has not deigned to discuss his changes. - Willmcw 19:34, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Auto-biography:
AndyL 01:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Given the above I think we should ask Professor MacDonald to bring his corrections and edits to the talk page rather than implement them unilaterally AndyL 01:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Removed: "We should note, however, that intermarriage is easier in a statistical sense for a minority, because more partners and a wider variety of partners are available from the majority community than within the minority community itself. "
This is pov and, frankly, utter nonsense which doesn't explain a) why the Jewish intermarriage rate has increased through the twentieth century b) why it's higher than that of other minorities including minorities that are much less numerous (eg the Samaritans or the Parsees and, in North America the Amish and Sikhs) and c) has nothing to do with ethnocentrism or with MacDonald. If intermarriage is "easier" for a minority that doesn't mean a minority is bound to intermarry. Indeed, if a minority is highly exclusive or ethnocentric the "ease" of intermarriage is immaterial.
"All Jews could find non-Jewish partners if they wished, but all non-Jews could not find Jewish partners, even if they wished to do so. An equal propensity to intermarriage in minority and majority communities will therefore produce higher rates of intermarriage in the minority community."
Irrelevent and immaterial as well as somewhat tortured logic. Does this mean if 100% of Jews married gentiles Jews would be "ethnocentric" because only 5% of gentiles could marry Jews?
"Religious practice among Jews has also liberalized or declined as part of a wider process of secularization in western societies, and the Jewish historian Yuri Slezkine also argues in his book The Jewish Century (2004) that western society in general has increasingly acquired Jewish characteristics in the past century. These factors may suggest that intermarriage has increased in part because the gap between Jews and non-Jews has shrunk."
This may be relevant to an article on intermarriage but it has nothing to do with MacDonald or the question of ethnocentrism. AndyL 22:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Removed: "We should note, however, that intermarriage is easier in a statistical sense for a minority, because more partners and a wider variety of partners are available from the majority community than within the minority community itself. "
"All Jews could find non-Jewish partners if they wished, but all non-Jews could not find Jewish partners, even if they wished to do so. An equal propensity to intermarriage in minority and majority communities will therefore produce higher rates of intermarriage in the minority community."
"Religious practice among Jews has also liberalized or declined as part of a wider process of secularization in western societies, and the Jewish historian Yuri Slezkine also argues in his book The Jewish Century (2004) that western society in general has increasingly acquired Jewish characteristics in the past century. These factors may suggest that intermarriage has increased in part because the gap between Jews and non-Jews has shrunk."
Does MacDonald make these arguments himself or are you making them for him? AndyL 14:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then why are the Jews more inclined towards assimilation and intermarriage than, say, the Amish in the US or, say, Muslims in Europe or "Gypsies" in general?
And there were not more Russian people to speak to for Russian Jews in the 19th century?
Again, what does your original statement have to do with MacDonald? The article is on MacDonald, not on your own theories or apologias. AndyL 14:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
MacDonald is a published scholar and no one should object to representing his views in the article. But we need to stick to his published views. Moreover, he is not an important scholar of Jewish studies, and it sounds like most of his arguments are specultive. I don't see how they merit this much discussion. Slrubenstein 17:09, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think the "real" story here -- more than the possible anti-semitism -- is the way many social scientists, in this case a psychologist, misunderstand and misuse biology. Slrubenstein 19:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are many, many Jews who reject Marx and Freud. But if you want an explanation, here it is: Jews were excluded from European life in most places until the mid 1800s, so it is understandable that they would find theories critical of European society attractive. This relates to the whole Yiddish thing -- the reason Yiddish declined is simple: the Holocaust. Now, what is the significance of these points? They suggest that you will be able to understand more of Jewish history if you look at political, economic, and social history than if you look for some evolutionary mechanism. Slrubenstein 22:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A) Most Jews were not communists b) Most Communists were (and are) not Jews, not in any time in the history of Marxism (and no, most of the leadership of the Bolsheviks were not Jews - in fact Jewish participation in the rival Mensheviks was much higher). To imply, as you and Macdonald do, that Communism or socialism are Jewish movements is absurd and it nothing but a hoary old canard trotted out by anti-Semites over the years. AndyL 14:37, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The hell it isn't. JFW | T@lk 08:43, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Has this page been protected? It appears 172 entered a protected notice at the same time I modified a sentence. Has there been a request for protection? Jayjg 20:37, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I requested it yesterday due to KBM's editing etc. I'd rather keep it for a little bit as a means of motivating MacDonald to come to the talk page rather than edit unilaterally (the other alternative is to tempban him for violating the wikipedia rules on editing articles on yourself despite being warned). AndyL 21:15, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Let's wait to see if the dispute with Jacquerie27 is resolved. AndyL 22:33, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your "understanding" but there's no need to be patronising or so casually dismissive particularly when you seem to have argued yourself into a corner and are grasping at straws in your attempts to defend MacDonald. Indeed, given your previous claim that you don't actually believe MacDonald's theory, a claim I think is somewhat dubious, you should not be surprised if one doubts your intentions. AndyL 00:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jacquerie27 writes about MacDonald, "theories that suggest Jews have had any significant negative influence on history." If this is indeed the theory, then it doesn't belong on the Jewish ethnocentrism page as it isn't about Jewish ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 01:30, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I know of no evidence to support this claim. Are there any scholars who claim this? I don't mean MacDonald, who is not an historian. Is there anyone who has researched the history of anti-Semitism who has an proof of this? Slrubenstein
What do you mean by "negative influence?" Negative in what way? Influence on what or whom? I just don't know what you mean. Negative influence "on history?" That is pretty vague. What exactly are you trying to say? Slrubenstein
Perhaps you should read the book Stalin's War Against the Jews by Arkady Vaksberg before you make too many assumptions about Jews benefitting from the Russian Revolution? Indeed, the Mensheviks had a much higher proportion of Jews among them than the Bolsheviks and they certainly didn't benefit from the October Revolution. As far as "mass Muslim immigration" to Europe is concerned, one result of that has been an increase in anti-Semitic incidents in countries such as France due to the opposition by sections of the Muslim population towards Jews so again hardly something from which Jews have benefitted. The reason for "mass Muslim immigration" isn't some nefarious Jewish plot but economics ie a labour shortage. AndyL 14:02, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Theo van Gogh had nothing to do with Jewish ethnocentrism. JFW | T@lk 23:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I repeat, I still see no evidence for "Jewish ethnocentrism." That some Jews found the USSR a safe haven, or even a paradise, for a period of time is in no way evidence of ethnocentrism. Moreover, I see no evidence that any Jewish desire to live in the USSR was in any way responsible for censorship in France or Stalin's genocides. None. We have been discussing this for days and for days I have been asking for evidence and for days Jacquerie 27 has avoided presenting any evidence. No evidence -- no verifiability -- and claims have to be deleted. this is a work of scholarship. Where is the evidence? Slrubenstein 21:05, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The above is not evidence of "ethnocentrism." You can view it as self-preservation (and approve of it) or as revenge (and disapprove of it) but neither are examples of ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 22:50, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By "Jewish Communists" I think you mean Lazar Kaganovich. When one considers he approved and participated in Stalin's purging of many Jews in the 1930s as well as the purging of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee in the 1940s, the suppression of Jewish culture etc. Not exactly the acts of an ethnocentric Jew. AndyL 11:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I see, so when he followed Stalin's orders to purge the Ukraine, Kagonovich was acting out of "Jewish ethnocentrism" but when he participated in the purges of Jews he did so out of self-preservation. How very selective of you. AndyL 22:07, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jacquerie27, at this point I can only think you are being willfully obstructionist. I have told you, repeatedly, why the examples you provide are not of ethnocentrism. I defined ethnocentrism for you and you ignore the definition. What you are talking about is not ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism means believing your culture is the best. Self-preservation, even collective preservation, need not be motivated by ethnocentrism. An ethnic group may believe that they are merely average, or even an inferior culture, and still act to defend or propomote their interests, even if it means killing others -- that is not in any way evidence of ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 18:17, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, what did Kaganovich actually do to promote Judaism? Nothing. He did quite a lot to undermine the position of the Jews in the Soviet Union, however. He's a popular "Jew bogeyman" for neo-Nazis and anti-Semites who strain to find examples of Jewish involvement in Stalinism (had since Jews were one of Stalin's targets).
I see this as nothing but a revival of the Nazi claim of "Judeo-Bolshevism", why else the rather tortured insinuation that Marx was Judeocentric if not to hold Jews guilty by association for Marxism which the right claims was a project aimed to destroy western civilization. AndyL 00:14, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No, I'm seeing him as reviving a Nazi claim that Communism (which they called Judeo-Bolshevism) was really a Jewish attempt to impose Jewish values on Europe. You've conveniently passed over the word "claim" in my original sentence. You've also conveniently dodged my point about your rather tortured claim that Marx was a "subconscious" ethnocentric Jew and that you're basically making the facts fit the theory (tunnel vision) since, if Marxism is part of a Jewish strategy then Marx has to be an ethnocentric Jew despite all evidence to the contrary. Good thing the theory isn't known as Englesism or you'd really have a problem. AndyL 16:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've had an open mind about J27 for over a year, but at this point, after days of extensive discussion on this and another page, it seems pretty clear to me that he is anti-Semitic. He is incapable of responding to reasonable discussion of this material, because he instinctively rejects any criticism of his views as further evidence of Jewish power or attempts to promote their influence -- a classic example of anti-Semitism. Slrubenstein 19:32, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What is the basis for the section starting: MacDonald's views are compatible with the views of many evolutionary scientists, including: which goes on to lists three books? On who's authority do we know that they are compatible with MacDonald's theory, and is being compatible the same as supporting? - Willmcw 18:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The other editors have asked MacDonald time and again to stop making changes to his own article without first discussing them. We have had the page protected briefly in order to discourage him, but he has never made any comment or response. Since this is not an autobiography, and it is a colaborative project, MacDonald's refusal to participate in Wikipedia according to our norms is frustrating. - Willmcw 18:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Auto-biography:
Alot of this section should be merged into Jewish ethnocentrism. I'll probably do that once things settle down. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 21:21, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The anon identified himself as MacDonald in one of his earlier edits. I believe his exact statement was "I am Kevin B. MacDonald" AndyL 22:01, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Given the Wikipedia guidelines regarding autobiography I think any edits by MacDonald should be removed until he discusses them in talk. AndyL 22:12, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Good job, things are looking much cleaner and more readable. Glad to see the politeness here and in the edit summaries too, I think the article is reflecting that progress. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 22:00, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As the subject of this page, I have indeed edited it in order to bring some semblance of sanity to it. When I started, it was completely one-sidede: MacDonald is a notorious antisemite and all his theories have been proven wrong. I will continue to edit the page until forced to stop. I can't understand the point of the most recent edit. I had placed the material on Zionism as a strategy to avoid assimilation and intermarriage in the section on assimilation and intermarraige because the thread of the other editors was to imply that Judaism as an ethnically pure group has effectively ceased to exist because of current intermarriage rates in the United States. I repeat, it is only in Western societies that Jews have ever had any tendency to intermarry, and a prime motivation of Zionists was to prevent this by establishing an ethnostate. To place that in a separate section on "MacDonald's Peronal Rebuttals" and then say "MacDonald feels that racial separatism . . ." is ridiculous because the reader completely loses the context and because there are dozens of references supporting this point; it's not a personal prejudice or irrational attitude on my part. Kevin MacDonald
Frankly, I do not think that the people who wrote the original article and have been engaged in this have been in the least bit objective. This is why I began writing. So now it's back to what it was before the recent round of edits. I don't mind the removal of the comment citing Slezkine's work, but if it is restored, I insist on providing my viewpoint on the relationship between Western culture and Judaism. And I don't see why the followoing comment by me was removed: (Obviously, intermarriage is not an issue in Israel. Indeed, racial separatism and deep concern about Jewish assimilation and intermarriage in Europe was a prime motivation of many of the early Zionists (reviewed in Separation and Its Discontents, Ch. 5). For example, for Jewish racial theorist Elias Auerbach, Zionism would return Jews “back into the position they enjoyed before the nineteenth century—politically autonomous, culturally whole, and racially pure” (Efron, J. M. (1994). Defenders of the Race: Jewish Doctors and Race Science in Fin-de-Siècle Europe. New Haven: Yale University Press, p. 136)." Or the comment that "moreover, he notes that the leadership of the Jewish community continues to be in the hands of ethnically committed Jews who are strongly opposed to intermarriage." They are certainly germane to the discussion, since the people criticizing me are trying to show that Judaism has no ethnic content. KM
Your comment was removed because you were informed some time ago that you were required to discuss edits on this page rather than implement them unilaterally and you chose to ignore that requirement. AndyL 00:49, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
" I repeat, it is only in Western societies that Jews have ever had any tendency to intermarry, and a prime motivation of Zionists was to prevent this by establishing an ethnostate."
Dr. MacDonald, it is my understanding that your focus is on Ashkenazi Jews and not on other Jewish ethnicities as it's been pointed out that Jews are actually quite racially diverse. So, if your focus is on Ashkenazi Jews, then the fact that the rate of intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jews is quite high is a central point. In fact, it is not just in the United States and "the West" that Ashkenazi intermarriage rates are high but in Eastern Europe, in particular Russia and the rest of the ex-Soviet Union and Latin America and wherever Ashkenazis live including Israel (where only a minority of Ashkenazi are) where they are intermarrying with Jews of other ethnicities. So if the rate of intermarriage is high among Ashkenazi Jews in general doesn't that throw a spanner in your claims about Ashkenazi ethnocentricity? If, on the other hand, you claim that Jews in general are ethnocentric, not just Ashkenazi Jews, how do you explain the vast racial diversity within Judaism ie the fact that you have Ashkenazi Jews who look European, Shephardic Jews and Mizrachi Jews who look Arabic, African Jews who look African, South Asian Jews who look South Asian, Chinese Jews who look Chinese. If Jews are ethnocentric how could this occur? AndyL 01:01, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Now it doesn't make any sense at all. I will try to get it into some kind of shape. I deleted the last paragraph because it in no way reflects my views and, as it was, it implied that this was one of my personal rebuttals. KM
But the comments as they stand do not make any sense, partly because they don't make clear what they are referring to. If you are going to have a section titled MacDonald's personal rebuttals, then I should edit it. KM
Okay, I will not do any more editing. It's still not very well organized but I think it makes more sense. KM
I'm still wondering about the issue I brought up:
It could go into the article. AndyL 10:13, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, I am not going to edit the article further. The Thomas et al data, which is based on mtDNA and is therefore really only one genetic locus, do indicate more genetic diversity between the various Jewish groups than the earlier data indicated. The autosomal data reviewed in A People THat Shall Dwell Alone show that all of the main Jewish populations have a Middle Eastern origin, and I think in the long run this will be corroborated by more sophisticated studies. Oriental Jews remained in the Middle East and North Africa where genetically segregated groups were the norm; there was no intermarriage. (This is the basis for my point about the fundamentally different cultural origins of Jews.) Part of the Sephardic population was absorbed by Spain as a result of the Inquisition which was basically an attempt to force Jews to assimilate to Spanish culture. (It's interesting that communities of crypto-Sephardic Jews have continued to be discovered beginning in the 20th century and most recently in the Southwestern US). The rest left Spain but remained in genetically segregated communities, mainly in North Africa, and the Near East (Turkey). I don't see a general tendency for Ashkenazim to intermarry. By all accounts, there was no intermarriage at all prior to the Enlightenment which was a consequence of Western culture. (Jews were regarded by Enlightenment intellectuals as hopelessly backward.) As Jews began to be influenced by the Enlightenment, the result was the greatest upheaval in Jewish culture in their history. Many Jews began to be more assimilated (e.g., the Reform movement which only exists in Western cultures and is absent even from Israel), and this led to some intermarraige, but genetically segregated groups continued to exist even in Western Europe and now in the US. Because the Enlightenment came last to Eastern Europe, these trends occurred much later in those areas.
"The Thomas et al data, which is based on mtDNA and is therefore really only one genetic locus, do indicate more genetic diversity between the various Jewish groups than the earlier data indicated. "
Doesn't this contradict your claims of ethnocentricity? How did this genetic diversity occur? AndyL 15:05, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The extent of genetic admixture is independent of ethnocentrism which is influenced by a set of psychological mechanisms. That is, Ashkenazi Jews could very well be extremely ethnocentric, as in my view they are, even though there was some genetic admixture with local women when the group originated. As to how Jewish populations got the level of genetic admixture they do have, you will have to read the Thomas et al study which is linked to in the body of the article. KM
Many times in this discussion it has come down to one question, posed by MacDonald an J27: "If those Jews aren't being ethnocentric, why do they oppose intermarriage?" I have two comments. First, if they really cannot imagine another reason for opposing intermarriage, then they lack imagination. Most behaviors have many possible causes and a scientist -- in order to develop a hypothesis, must be able to imagine different possible causes. If there is only one possible cause, then you are talking about faith, not science. Second, why is it that they are posing the question on this talk page? That they do so indicates that they have done inadequate research, because they should of course be posing the question to Jews who oppose intermarriage. If they did serious research, spending enough time getting to know and talking to Jews who hold this view, they would discover other reasons. This too is a matter of good science -- empirical research. To propose an argument about why people do things, without having done adequate research, again indicates that MacDonald's position is more a matter of faith than science. Slrubenstein 19:39, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Preserving one's own culture for its own sake is not ethnocentric. Slrubenstein 19:46, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Have these personal rebuttals been published anywhere, in any journal or book? If not then they break the No original research rule and don't belong in the article. AndyL 21:51, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There's a difference between coming onto wikipedia and writing your own rebuttals and citing rebuttals which have already been published. The former is original research, the latter is not. What I am asking is which of these categories does the "MacDonald's personal rebuttals" section fall under. The fact that he is the author and has had *other* material published does not change the fact that his opinions are original research if they aren't already published (ie been approved by peer review ). AndyL 22:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Taking the "personal" out of the section heading doesn't stop the comments from being original research if they haven't already been published elsewhere, btw. AndyL 22:31, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The Yahoo group referenced as a resource [1] is set to invited members-only. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll delete it as inaccessible. - Willmcw 20:47, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That has become a moot point because Professor MacDonald has apparently swamped the criticism by several hundred words of rebuttal. This article is growing into an autobiography by the professor. Maybe we ought to create a MacDonald responds to his critics section for his additions. I notice that he has not deigned to discuss his changes. - Willmcw 19:34, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Auto-biography:
AndyL 01:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Given the above I think we should ask Professor MacDonald to bring his corrections and edits to the talk page rather than implement them unilaterally AndyL 01:06, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Removed: "We should note, however, that intermarriage is easier in a statistical sense for a minority, because more partners and a wider variety of partners are available from the majority community than within the minority community itself. "
This is pov and, frankly, utter nonsense which doesn't explain a) why the Jewish intermarriage rate has increased through the twentieth century b) why it's higher than that of other minorities including minorities that are much less numerous (eg the Samaritans or the Parsees and, in North America the Amish and Sikhs) and c) has nothing to do with ethnocentrism or with MacDonald. If intermarriage is "easier" for a minority that doesn't mean a minority is bound to intermarry. Indeed, if a minority is highly exclusive or ethnocentric the "ease" of intermarriage is immaterial.
"All Jews could find non-Jewish partners if they wished, but all non-Jews could not find Jewish partners, even if they wished to do so. An equal propensity to intermarriage in minority and majority communities will therefore produce higher rates of intermarriage in the minority community."
Irrelevent and immaterial as well as somewhat tortured logic. Does this mean if 100% of Jews married gentiles Jews would be "ethnocentric" because only 5% of gentiles could marry Jews?
"Religious practice among Jews has also liberalized or declined as part of a wider process of secularization in western societies, and the Jewish historian Yuri Slezkine also argues in his book The Jewish Century (2004) that western society in general has increasingly acquired Jewish characteristics in the past century. These factors may suggest that intermarriage has increased in part because the gap between Jews and non-Jews has shrunk."
This may be relevant to an article on intermarriage but it has nothing to do with MacDonald or the question of ethnocentrism. AndyL 22:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Removed: "We should note, however, that intermarriage is easier in a statistical sense for a minority, because more partners and a wider variety of partners are available from the majority community than within the minority community itself. "
"All Jews could find non-Jewish partners if they wished, but all non-Jews could not find Jewish partners, even if they wished to do so. An equal propensity to intermarriage in minority and majority communities will therefore produce higher rates of intermarriage in the minority community."
"Religious practice among Jews has also liberalized or declined as part of a wider process of secularization in western societies, and the Jewish historian Yuri Slezkine also argues in his book The Jewish Century (2004) that western society in general has increasingly acquired Jewish characteristics in the past century. These factors may suggest that intermarriage has increased in part because the gap between Jews and non-Jews has shrunk."
Does MacDonald make these arguments himself or are you making them for him? AndyL 14:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then why are the Jews more inclined towards assimilation and intermarriage than, say, the Amish in the US or, say, Muslims in Europe or "Gypsies" in general?
And there were not more Russian people to speak to for Russian Jews in the 19th century?
Again, what does your original statement have to do with MacDonald? The article is on MacDonald, not on your own theories or apologias. AndyL 14:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
MacDonald is a published scholar and no one should object to representing his views in the article. But we need to stick to his published views. Moreover, he is not an important scholar of Jewish studies, and it sounds like most of his arguments are specultive. I don't see how they merit this much discussion. Slrubenstein 17:09, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think the "real" story here -- more than the possible anti-semitism -- is the way many social scientists, in this case a psychologist, misunderstand and misuse biology. Slrubenstein 19:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are many, many Jews who reject Marx and Freud. But if you want an explanation, here it is: Jews were excluded from European life in most places until the mid 1800s, so it is understandable that they would find theories critical of European society attractive. This relates to the whole Yiddish thing -- the reason Yiddish declined is simple: the Holocaust. Now, what is the significance of these points? They suggest that you will be able to understand more of Jewish history if you look at political, economic, and social history than if you look for some evolutionary mechanism. Slrubenstein 22:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A) Most Jews were not communists b) Most Communists were (and are) not Jews, not in any time in the history of Marxism (and no, most of the leadership of the Bolsheviks were not Jews - in fact Jewish participation in the rival Mensheviks was much higher). To imply, as you and Macdonald do, that Communism or socialism are Jewish movements is absurd and it nothing but a hoary old canard trotted out by anti-Semites over the years. AndyL 14:37, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The hell it isn't. JFW | T@lk 08:43, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Has this page been protected? It appears 172 entered a protected notice at the same time I modified a sentence. Has there been a request for protection? Jayjg 20:37, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I requested it yesterday due to KBM's editing etc. I'd rather keep it for a little bit as a means of motivating MacDonald to come to the talk page rather than edit unilaterally (the other alternative is to tempban him for violating the wikipedia rules on editing articles on yourself despite being warned). AndyL 21:15, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Let's wait to see if the dispute with Jacquerie27 is resolved. AndyL 22:33, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your "understanding" but there's no need to be patronising or so casually dismissive particularly when you seem to have argued yourself into a corner and are grasping at straws in your attempts to defend MacDonald. Indeed, given your previous claim that you don't actually believe MacDonald's theory, a claim I think is somewhat dubious, you should not be surprised if one doubts your intentions. AndyL 00:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jacquerie27 writes about MacDonald, "theories that suggest Jews have had any significant negative influence on history." If this is indeed the theory, then it doesn't belong on the Jewish ethnocentrism page as it isn't about Jewish ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 01:30, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I know of no evidence to support this claim. Are there any scholars who claim this? I don't mean MacDonald, who is not an historian. Is there anyone who has researched the history of anti-Semitism who has an proof of this? Slrubenstein
What do you mean by "negative influence?" Negative in what way? Influence on what or whom? I just don't know what you mean. Negative influence "on history?" That is pretty vague. What exactly are you trying to say? Slrubenstein
Perhaps you should read the book Stalin's War Against the Jews by Arkady Vaksberg before you make too many assumptions about Jews benefitting from the Russian Revolution? Indeed, the Mensheviks had a much higher proportion of Jews among them than the Bolsheviks and they certainly didn't benefit from the October Revolution. As far as "mass Muslim immigration" to Europe is concerned, one result of that has been an increase in anti-Semitic incidents in countries such as France due to the opposition by sections of the Muslim population towards Jews so again hardly something from which Jews have benefitted. The reason for "mass Muslim immigration" isn't some nefarious Jewish plot but economics ie a labour shortage. AndyL 14:02, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Theo van Gogh had nothing to do with Jewish ethnocentrism. JFW | T@lk 23:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I repeat, I still see no evidence for "Jewish ethnocentrism." That some Jews found the USSR a safe haven, or even a paradise, for a period of time is in no way evidence of ethnocentrism. Moreover, I see no evidence that any Jewish desire to live in the USSR was in any way responsible for censorship in France or Stalin's genocides. None. We have been discussing this for days and for days I have been asking for evidence and for days Jacquerie 27 has avoided presenting any evidence. No evidence -- no verifiability -- and claims have to be deleted. this is a work of scholarship. Where is the evidence? Slrubenstein 21:05, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The above is not evidence of "ethnocentrism." You can view it as self-preservation (and approve of it) or as revenge (and disapprove of it) but neither are examples of ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 22:50, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By "Jewish Communists" I think you mean Lazar Kaganovich. When one considers he approved and participated in Stalin's purging of many Jews in the 1930s as well as the purging of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee in the 1940s, the suppression of Jewish culture etc. Not exactly the acts of an ethnocentric Jew. AndyL 11:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I see, so when he followed Stalin's orders to purge the Ukraine, Kagonovich was acting out of "Jewish ethnocentrism" but when he participated in the purges of Jews he did so out of self-preservation. How very selective of you. AndyL 22:07, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jacquerie27, at this point I can only think you are being willfully obstructionist. I have told you, repeatedly, why the examples you provide are not of ethnocentrism. I defined ethnocentrism for you and you ignore the definition. What you are talking about is not ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism means believing your culture is the best. Self-preservation, even collective preservation, need not be motivated by ethnocentrism. An ethnic group may believe that they are merely average, or even an inferior culture, and still act to defend or propomote their interests, even if it means killing others -- that is not in any way evidence of ethnocentrism. Slrubenstein 18:17, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, what did Kaganovich actually do to promote Judaism? Nothing. He did quite a lot to undermine the position of the Jews in the Soviet Union, however. He's a popular "Jew bogeyman" for neo-Nazis and anti-Semites who strain to find examples of Jewish involvement in Stalinism (had since Jews were one of Stalin's targets).
I see this as nothing but a revival of the Nazi claim of "Judeo-Bolshevism", why else the rather tortured insinuation that Marx was Judeocentric if not to hold Jews guilty by association for Marxism which the right claims was a project aimed to destroy western civilization. AndyL 00:14, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No, I'm seeing him as reviving a Nazi claim that Communism (which they called Judeo-Bolshevism) was really a Jewish attempt to impose Jewish values on Europe. You've conveniently passed over the word "claim" in my original sentence. You've also conveniently dodged my point about your rather tortured claim that Marx was a "subconscious" ethnocentric Jew and that you're basically making the facts fit the theory (tunnel vision) since, if Marxism is part of a Jewish strategy then Marx has to be an ethnocentric Jew despite all evidence to the contrary. Good thing the theory isn't known as Englesism or you'd really have a problem. AndyL 16:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've had an open mind about J27 for over a year, but at this point, after days of extensive discussion on this and another page, it seems pretty clear to me that he is anti-Semitic. He is incapable of responding to reasonable discussion of this material, because he instinctively rejects any criticism of his views as further evidence of Jewish power or attempts to promote their influence -- a classic example of anti-Semitism. Slrubenstein 19:32, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What is the basis for the section starting: MacDonald's views are compatible with the views of many evolutionary scientists, including: which goes on to lists three books? On who's authority do we know that they are compatible with MacDonald's theory, and is being compatible the same as supporting? - Willmcw 18:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The other editors have asked MacDonald time and again to stop making changes to his own article without first discussing them. We have had the page protected briefly in order to discourage him, but he has never made any comment or response. Since this is not an autobiography, and it is a colaborative project, MacDonald's refusal to participate in Wikipedia according to our norms is frustrating. - Willmcw 18:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Auto-biography:
Alot of this section should be merged into Jewish ethnocentrism. I'll probably do that once things settle down. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 21:21, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The anon identified himself as MacDonald in one of his earlier edits. I believe his exact statement was "I am Kevin B. MacDonald" AndyL 22:01, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Given the Wikipedia guidelines regarding autobiography I think any edits by MacDonald should be removed until he discusses them in talk. AndyL 22:12, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Good job, things are looking much cleaner and more readable. Glad to see the politeness here and in the edit summaries too, I think the article is reflecting that progress. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 22:00, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As the subject of this page, I have indeed edited it in order to bring some semblance of sanity to it. When I started, it was completely one-sidede: MacDonald is a notorious antisemite and all his theories have been proven wrong. I will continue to edit the page until forced to stop. I can't understand the point of the most recent edit. I had placed the material on Zionism as a strategy to avoid assimilation and intermarriage in the section on assimilation and intermarraige because the thread of the other editors was to imply that Judaism as an ethnically pure group has effectively ceased to exist because of current intermarriage rates in the United States. I repeat, it is only in Western societies that Jews have ever had any tendency to intermarry, and a prime motivation of Zionists was to prevent this by establishing an ethnostate. To place that in a separate section on "MacDonald's Peronal Rebuttals" and then say "MacDonald feels that racial separatism . . ." is ridiculous because the reader completely loses the context and because there are dozens of references supporting this point; it's not a personal prejudice or irrational attitude on my part. Kevin MacDonald
Frankly, I do not think that the people who wrote the original article and have been engaged in this have been in the least bit objective. This is why I began writing. So now it's back to what it was before the recent round of edits. I don't mind the removal of the comment citing Slezkine's work, but if it is restored, I insist on providing my viewpoint on the relationship between Western culture and Judaism. And I don't see why the followoing comment by me was removed: (Obviously, intermarriage is not an issue in Israel. Indeed, racial separatism and deep concern about Jewish assimilation and intermarriage in Europe was a prime motivation of many of the early Zionists (reviewed in Separation and Its Discontents, Ch. 5). For example, for Jewish racial theorist Elias Auerbach, Zionism would return Jews “back into the position they enjoyed before the nineteenth century—politically autonomous, culturally whole, and racially pure” (Efron, J. M. (1994). Defenders of the Race: Jewish Doctors and Race Science in Fin-de-Siècle Europe. New Haven: Yale University Press, p. 136)." Or the comment that "moreover, he notes that the leadership of the Jewish community continues to be in the hands of ethnically committed Jews who are strongly opposed to intermarriage." They are certainly germane to the discussion, since the people criticizing me are trying to show that Judaism has no ethnic content. KM
Your comment was removed because you were informed some time ago that you were required to discuss edits on this page rather than implement them unilaterally and you chose to ignore that requirement. AndyL 00:49, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
" I repeat, it is only in Western societies that Jews have ever had any tendency to intermarry, and a prime motivation of Zionists was to prevent this by establishing an ethnostate."
Dr. MacDonald, it is my understanding that your focus is on Ashkenazi Jews and not on other Jewish ethnicities as it's been pointed out that Jews are actually quite racially diverse. So, if your focus is on Ashkenazi Jews, then the fact that the rate of intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jews is quite high is a central point. In fact, it is not just in the United States and "the West" that Ashkenazi intermarriage rates are high but in Eastern Europe, in particular Russia and the rest of the ex-Soviet Union and Latin America and wherever Ashkenazis live including Israel (where only a minority of Ashkenazi are) where they are intermarrying with Jews of other ethnicities. So if the rate of intermarriage is high among Ashkenazi Jews in general doesn't that throw a spanner in your claims about Ashkenazi ethnocentricity? If, on the other hand, you claim that Jews in general are ethnocentric, not just Ashkenazi Jews, how do you explain the vast racial diversity within Judaism ie the fact that you have Ashkenazi Jews who look European, Shephardic Jews and Mizrachi Jews who look Arabic, African Jews who look African, South Asian Jews who look South Asian, Chinese Jews who look Chinese. If Jews are ethnocentric how could this occur? AndyL 01:01, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Now it doesn't make any sense at all. I will try to get it into some kind of shape. I deleted the last paragraph because it in no way reflects my views and, as it was, it implied that this was one of my personal rebuttals. KM
But the comments as they stand do not make any sense, partly because they don't make clear what they are referring to. If you are going to have a section titled MacDonald's personal rebuttals, then I should edit it. KM
Okay, I will not do any more editing. It's still not very well organized but I think it makes more sense. KM
I'm still wondering about the issue I brought up:
It could go into the article. AndyL 10:13, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, I am not going to edit the article further. The Thomas et al data, which is based on mtDNA and is therefore really only one genetic locus, do indicate more genetic diversity between the various Jewish groups than the earlier data indicated. The autosomal data reviewed in A People THat Shall Dwell Alone show that all of the main Jewish populations have a Middle Eastern origin, and I think in the long run this will be corroborated by more sophisticated studies. Oriental Jews remained in the Middle East and North Africa where genetically segregated groups were the norm; there was no intermarriage. (This is the basis for my point about the fundamentally different cultural origins of Jews.) Part of the Sephardic population was absorbed by Spain as a result of the Inquisition which was basically an attempt to force Jews to assimilate to Spanish culture. (It's interesting that communities of crypto-Sephardic Jews have continued to be discovered beginning in the 20th century and most recently in the Southwestern US). The rest left Spain but remained in genetically segregated communities, mainly in North Africa, and the Near East (Turkey). I don't see a general tendency for Ashkenazim to intermarry. By all accounts, there was no intermarriage at all prior to the Enlightenment which was a consequence of Western culture. (Jews were regarded by Enlightenment intellectuals as hopelessly backward.) As Jews began to be influenced by the Enlightenment, the result was the greatest upheaval in Jewish culture in their history. Many Jews began to be more assimilated (e.g., the Reform movement which only exists in Western cultures and is absent even from Israel), and this led to some intermarraige, but genetically segregated groups continued to exist even in Western Europe and now in the US. Because the Enlightenment came last to Eastern Europe, these trends occurred much later in those areas.
"The Thomas et al data, which is based on mtDNA and is therefore really only one genetic locus, do indicate more genetic diversity between the various Jewish groups than the earlier data indicated. "
Doesn't this contradict your claims of ethnocentricity? How did this genetic diversity occur? AndyL 15:05, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The extent of genetic admixture is independent of ethnocentrism which is influenced by a set of psychological mechanisms. That is, Ashkenazi Jews could very well be extremely ethnocentric, as in my view they are, even though there was some genetic admixture with local women when the group originated. As to how Jewish populations got the level of genetic admixture they do have, you will have to read the Thomas et al study which is linked to in the body of the article. KM
Many times in this discussion it has come down to one question, posed by MacDonald an J27: "If those Jews aren't being ethnocentric, why do they oppose intermarriage?" I have two comments. First, if they really cannot imagine another reason for opposing intermarriage, then they lack imagination. Most behaviors have many possible causes and a scientist -- in order to develop a hypothesis, must be able to imagine different possible causes. If there is only one possible cause, then you are talking about faith, not science. Second, why is it that they are posing the question on this talk page? That they do so indicates that they have done inadequate research, because they should of course be posing the question to Jews who oppose intermarriage. If they did serious research, spending enough time getting to know and talking to Jews who hold this view, they would discover other reasons. This too is a matter of good science -- empirical research. To propose an argument about why people do things, without having done adequate research, again indicates that MacDonald's position is more a matter of faith than science. Slrubenstein 19:39, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Preserving one's own culture for its own sake is not ethnocentric. Slrubenstein 19:46, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Have these personal rebuttals been published anywhere, in any journal or book? If not then they break the No original research rule and don't belong in the article. AndyL 21:51, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There's a difference between coming onto wikipedia and writing your own rebuttals and citing rebuttals which have already been published. The former is original research, the latter is not. What I am asking is which of these categories does the "MacDonald's personal rebuttals" section fall under. The fact that he is the author and has had *other* material published does not change the fact that his opinions are original research if they aren't already published (ie been approved by peer review ). AndyL 22:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Taking the "personal" out of the section heading doesn't stop the comments from being original research if they haven't already been published elsewhere, btw. AndyL 22:31, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)