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...removed until whoever inserted it can actually be bothered to write here about why they dispute the neutrality. BaseTurnComplete ( talk) 23:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage#Pages on peerages states the following:
"A peer's article should be at "Name, (Ordinal) Rank (of) Title"…except in cases where the title is never (or hardly ever) used."
It further states:
"Wives of peers, when the title is used in the article name (the same rules apply as for substantive peers as to whether it should be), should have their married surnames."
As with Bertrand Russell, whose article is at that name rather than "Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell", this article should be at Kathleen Kennedy Cavendish. She was always known as Kathleen or "Kick" Kennedy and never as Lady Cavendish. I will move it there shortly if there are no substantive objections. Mike R ( talk) 14:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I understand that the title of this article is as it is to conform to the WikiProject rule, "Wives of peers, when the title is used in the article name, should have their married surnames." I believe, however, that this rule is unprecented, arbitrary, and that it diverges unreasonably from the usual practice of encyclopedists writing about history.
Wives of titled men are always listed by the maiden names in works of historical reference. That's because the antecedents and connections of women who marry titled noblemen and royals are of great historical and political import, and for this reason, the wives of the nobility and of royalty, too, have always and everywhere been referred to by the name of their father's family, as for example (historically speaking) "Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales", (not "Diana Windsor, Princess of Wales"). Or "Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen", instead of "Lady Jane Dudley", which was her married name.)
If the rule should stand, then it should also be applied to royalty, too, and then we would need to change the names listed in the entries for the six wives of King Henry VIII of England from:
1. Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England 2. Anne Boleyn, Queen of England 3. Jane Seymour, Queen of England 4. Anne of Cleves, Queen of England 5. Catherine Howard, Queen of England 6. Catherine Parr, Queen of England
to:
1. Catherine Tudor, Queen of England 2. Anne Tudor, Queen of England 3. Jane Tudor, Queen of England 4. Anne Tudor, Queen of England 5. Catherine Tudor, Queen of England 6. Catherine Tudor, Queen of England
I am entering these comments also on the Wikiproject Page. I hope we can fix this.
Ivain ( talk) 17:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
17:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
This article should be titled "Kathleen Kennedy", this is her common name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.95.93.71 ( talk) 04:54, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I have come here in response to MilborneOne's request. I see no objection to the article being renamed " Kathleen Kennedy", if that is what reliable sources mostly call her. I know that American women have a habit of stringing their past and present surnames together, and good luck to them, but that is still quite alien to the British, and in my view the article on this lady should be called either by her name before she was married or by her married name. A confusion of surnames should surely not be built into the name of an article which includes a courtesy title. After her marriage, Kathleen Kennedy's name was her husband's. In society, she was " Kathleen Hartington", and to a reference work her name was " Kathleen Cavendish, Marchioness of Hartington". Her name did not change when her husband died. The question is surely about what we consider her "common name"? Moonraker ( talk) 22:23, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Did she convert to Anglicanism upon her marriage, or did she stay a Roman Catholic? -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 20:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
She never converted. She remained a member of the RC church — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.127.106 ( talk) 16:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
... mentioned in the "Death" section, without forename, link, or explanation -- Y not? 21:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
one would imagine it to be the Marquess Townshend 78.144.208.101 ( talk) 02:07, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
In May 1948, Kathleen learned that her father would be traveling to Paris. In an effort to gain his consent for her upcoming plans to marry Fitzwilliam, she decided to fly to Paris to meet with her father... On May 13, 1948, Kennedy and Fitzwilliam were flying from Paris to the French Riviera for a vacation [fatal crash]
The last sentence of the second paragraph states "Kathleen died in a plane crash in 1948, flying to the south of France on holiday with her married partner The 8th Earl Fitzwilliam." The phrase "her married partner" is utterly confusing. In what way were they "married partners"? Were they married to each other? (Yes, I realize that they were not.) I presume that someone thought that "partner" was a useful term for referring to two people who were in some sort of romantic relationship, but it just raises more questions than it answers. I think it should be changed to something like "...with the 8th Earl Fitzwilliam, with whom she had become romantically involved". Thoughts? Bricology ( talk) 07:17, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved, finding consensus against 'Kathleen "Kick" Kennedy' and no consensus here for the alternative 'Kick Kennedy' ( non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs ( talk) 00:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Kathleen Cavendish, Marchioness of Hartington → Kathleen "Kick" Kennedy – I suggest that this is a case of "common name". She is far better known as JFK's sister than as a minor British aristocrat, and her death is regarded as part of the Kennedy curse. Also, she wasn't really a proper Marchioness, this is just a courtesy title, and she was only married for a few months before her husband was killed in the war. It might be nice to call her plain "Kathleen Kennedy", but we have two other people of this name on Wikipedia (her niece and the film producer) and it's not clear that she is primary. So using her well-known nickname seems like the best form of disambiguation. PatGallacher ( talk) 11:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kathleen Cavendish, Marchioness of Hartington article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
...removed until whoever inserted it can actually be bothered to write here about why they dispute the neutrality. BaseTurnComplete ( talk) 23:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage#Pages on peerages states the following:
"A peer's article should be at "Name, (Ordinal) Rank (of) Title"…except in cases where the title is never (or hardly ever) used."
It further states:
"Wives of peers, when the title is used in the article name (the same rules apply as for substantive peers as to whether it should be), should have their married surnames."
As with Bertrand Russell, whose article is at that name rather than "Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell", this article should be at Kathleen Kennedy Cavendish. She was always known as Kathleen or "Kick" Kennedy and never as Lady Cavendish. I will move it there shortly if there are no substantive objections. Mike R ( talk) 14:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I understand that the title of this article is as it is to conform to the WikiProject rule, "Wives of peers, when the title is used in the article name, should have their married surnames." I believe, however, that this rule is unprecented, arbitrary, and that it diverges unreasonably from the usual practice of encyclopedists writing about history.
Wives of titled men are always listed by the maiden names in works of historical reference. That's because the antecedents and connections of women who marry titled noblemen and royals are of great historical and political import, and for this reason, the wives of the nobility and of royalty, too, have always and everywhere been referred to by the name of their father's family, as for example (historically speaking) "Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales", (not "Diana Windsor, Princess of Wales"). Or "Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen", instead of "Lady Jane Dudley", which was her married name.)
If the rule should stand, then it should also be applied to royalty, too, and then we would need to change the names listed in the entries for the six wives of King Henry VIII of England from:
1. Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England 2. Anne Boleyn, Queen of England 3. Jane Seymour, Queen of England 4. Anne of Cleves, Queen of England 5. Catherine Howard, Queen of England 6. Catherine Parr, Queen of England
to:
1. Catherine Tudor, Queen of England 2. Anne Tudor, Queen of England 3. Jane Tudor, Queen of England 4. Anne Tudor, Queen of England 5. Catherine Tudor, Queen of England 6. Catherine Tudor, Queen of England
I am entering these comments also on the Wikiproject Page. I hope we can fix this.
Ivain ( talk) 17:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
17:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
This article should be titled "Kathleen Kennedy", this is her common name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.95.93.71 ( talk) 04:54, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I have come here in response to MilborneOne's request. I see no objection to the article being renamed " Kathleen Kennedy", if that is what reliable sources mostly call her. I know that American women have a habit of stringing their past and present surnames together, and good luck to them, but that is still quite alien to the British, and in my view the article on this lady should be called either by her name before she was married or by her married name. A confusion of surnames should surely not be built into the name of an article which includes a courtesy title. After her marriage, Kathleen Kennedy's name was her husband's. In society, she was " Kathleen Hartington", and to a reference work her name was " Kathleen Cavendish, Marchioness of Hartington". Her name did not change when her husband died. The question is surely about what we consider her "common name"? Moonraker ( talk) 22:23, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Did she convert to Anglicanism upon her marriage, or did she stay a Roman Catholic? -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 20:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
She never converted. She remained a member of the RC church — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.127.106 ( talk) 16:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
... mentioned in the "Death" section, without forename, link, or explanation -- Y not? 21:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
one would imagine it to be the Marquess Townshend 78.144.208.101 ( talk) 02:07, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
In May 1948, Kathleen learned that her father would be traveling to Paris. In an effort to gain his consent for her upcoming plans to marry Fitzwilliam, she decided to fly to Paris to meet with her father... On May 13, 1948, Kennedy and Fitzwilliam were flying from Paris to the French Riviera for a vacation [fatal crash]
The last sentence of the second paragraph states "Kathleen died in a plane crash in 1948, flying to the south of France on holiday with her married partner The 8th Earl Fitzwilliam." The phrase "her married partner" is utterly confusing. In what way were they "married partners"? Were they married to each other? (Yes, I realize that they were not.) I presume that someone thought that "partner" was a useful term for referring to two people who were in some sort of romantic relationship, but it just raises more questions than it answers. I think it should be changed to something like "...with the 8th Earl Fitzwilliam, with whom she had become romantically involved". Thoughts? Bricology ( talk) 07:17, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved, finding consensus against 'Kathleen "Kick" Kennedy' and no consensus here for the alternative 'Kick Kennedy' ( non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs ( talk) 00:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Kathleen Cavendish, Marchioness of Hartington → Kathleen "Kick" Kennedy – I suggest that this is a case of "common name". She is far better known as JFK's sister than as a minor British aristocrat, and her death is regarded as part of the Kennedy curse. Also, she wasn't really a proper Marchioness, this is just a courtesy title, and she was only married for a few months before her husband was killed in the war. It might be nice to call her plain "Kathleen Kennedy", but we have two other people of this name on Wikipedia (her niece and the film producer) and it's not clear that she is primary. So using her well-known nickname seems like the best form of disambiguation. PatGallacher ( talk) 11:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)