This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
August 7, 2003 Bradenton, FL town meeting sources:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wfeidt ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 14 August 2003 (UTC)
Was she, or was she not, chair of Choicepoint - the bunch that made the voting rolls for FL and just happened to omit thousands of voters who just happen to tend to the Democrat - and W's FL campaign manager while she was supervisor of elections for JEB? Some people - we're not all on fluoride yet - think there'd be some sort of conflict there. [1] If it's true, I think it should be mentioned; if not, it's a common misperception which should be straightened out. 142.177.15.190 01:00, 18 Apr 2004
I re-inserted this category and the excised text. It's not at all clear why the politician's public policy positions would lack relevance to her wiki article, would you please discuss your take on it? Thanks Flawiki 09:52, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I thought Gamaliel's compromise handling of the situation with regard to the stem cell matter was superior to the conflicting treatments given it by either myself or any of the three other coordinating editors. Today's edits restored a POV version of the paragraph that was previously edited to something more NPOV. Would the editor please revert to Gamaliel's no-POV version? Flawiki 20:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
Update: I've reverted Voldemort's ressurection of the offending passage. Flawiki 12:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
This article is horribly POV. There's almost nothing on how she would be the second most sextastic senator in the country, second only to Landrieu from Louisiana. And you keep putting in relevant facts about stupid things she's done! For shame! -- BarrettBrown 05:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This should be in a seperate section perhaps one describing the 2004 race (there's stuff to put in here on Schneider for ex). If the above section regarding the stem cell situation is ever resolved I'll volunteer to fix it if
201.58.189.189 doesn't want to.
Flawiki 20:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC) New sections added about about a week ago or so.
Flawiki 21:42, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
According to an article by David Park Musella of the Skeptical Inquirer, when Harris was Florida secretary of state, she ordered a formal study of "celestial drops" as a remedy for a citrus crop disease. The product was 100% hogwash. I'd like to add this to the article, but I'm not sure whether it should get its own section or what. Comments?
Okay, does ordering a formal study on a product that is then proved hogwash a bad thing or a good thing? I would have been much more horrified if "celestial drops" had been bought by the government without a study. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.108.123 ( talk) 19:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason why this categorical justification of stem cell research opposition should be noted here and not on its own page? It doesn't say anything about whether this was Harris personal motivation for voting against the measure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoplifter ( talk • contribs) 12:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I revised the "2000 Presidential Election" section from "Because Vice-President Gore had (barely) won the nation's popular vote" to "Because Vice-President Gore had won the nation's popular vote". It seems as though including "(barely)" would constitute a bias.
I don't think the word "barely" is an accurate description of a 543,816 popular vote margin, so yeah it seemed pretty biased to me. Thanks for the edit.
Mtmelendez 14:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
"This seemingly far-right Christian movement seeks to remove the separation of church and state tradition of American government." This statement isn't true as the separation of church and state is not in the US Constitution, which is the basis of American government. Nor did I find it on the website. Not to mention somewhat of a bias that those not up on American political talk would understand. Thus was it removed.
Tonight, I made quite a few minor edits and a few major ones. Please dialog with me here if you take issue with any or all them. I ask that each here afford me the courtesy of not "blanket" reverting all my edits in toto. I've put much thought into them and I am trying to be NPOV. thank you. Merecat 08:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Your condemnation of my edits is too broad to be addressed en masse [2]. Please link diffs one at a time here with your objections to each diff and I will reasonably dialog with you towards a jointly acceptable resolution for each of your objections. I suggest that we start with the three edits which bother you the most. Merecat 20:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that making demands of the type you are making is either fair or productive. See this link Talk:Florida Central Voter File to see how effective talk page dialog occurs. You may not be up to the task of consensus editing, but others are. And frankly, I take umbrage at your tone. To me, you sound condescending, verging on hostile. Merecat 02:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Please state for me why you think each of those should be re-inserted. Please take into account the ES I made for each repsective edit. I think my changes arre correct and have stated reasons for them with individual edit summaries. Merecat 02:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I made edits, I supported each edit with a distinct Edit Summary. Blanket dismissals don't suffice. Merecat 07:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Flawiki, your POV is coloring your edits here. While you may consider it controversial for a politician to address a religious group; absent confirmed reports from neutral, reliable sources who contend that he speech resulted in controversy or was itself controversial, your characterization of it as such is incorrect. And, if indeed she spoke there as a headliner, supply a citation. And, if indeed that talk stirred controvery, supply a citation. In fact, you only supplied a link to the group itself, but no link to any information about the event she spoke at. So, Harris spoke at a religious group? Big deal? Do they vote? Are any members of that group in FL? If she wins, she will be representing the whole state. Is she supposed to not speak to those people? Why, because what that group stands for offends you? Merecat 15:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Flawiki, your complaints need to be more specific. I disagree that your revert of those edits was warranted and I have restored them by reverting you. Merecat 07:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, contingent upon you 1st listing three specific things which concern you the most. Merecat 19:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The net result of including this is to push a POV view that Harris campaign is failing. You can't do that. You also have to quote someone who says it's doing well. Merecat 23:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You are 100% wrong. If you insert material, the net effect of that maertial has to be NPOV, or others are free to remove it. If you fail to address the shortcomings I have pointed out to you, I will delete that meterial. Merecat 03:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
Enough is enough. With Harris in the news, this is an important topic and many people will be visiting this page. The childish, partisan POV-pushing needs to end now. POV pushing is unacceptable no matter where it is found. The repeated tagging of this article by Merecat is disruptive, and attempts to justify this edit war by suggesting that the recounting of facts needs, as a matter of course, to be balanced by some competing (i.e. pat, political, spokesman-speak, pandering, sugar-coated) view is ridiculous and unencyclopedic.
User:Merecat's statement I cited above is a disturbing demonstration of a fundamental miscomprehension about what WP articles need to achieve; I believe deliberately so, stretching the ability to assume good faith. As a result, I believe this should be taken to mediation and a request made that the issue be reviewed; ideally, Merecat will be prevented from these disruptive edits and what amounts to a violation (in effect) of the 3R rule. I have looked through the edit history of this article, and I don't see how accusations of systematic POV pushing can be justified wrt any of the other good faith editors of this article. Please respond if there are reasonable objections to mediation, but not of the "unless we have counter-balancing quotes from Harris' campaign spokesman this is POV"-kind which is not helpful. Eusebeus 00:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following because there was no clear connection what this content had to do with Katherine Harris. Well documented though, but seemingly unrelated. If whomever author re-adds this, please make relevance more distinctive. After Miami mayor Xavier Suarez was removed from office in 1998 due to absentee ballot fraud, state election officials hired Database Technologies Inc. (DBT) of Boca Raton to scan the state's database of registered voters for felons, who are prohibited from voting by state law, and for dead people. [1] The felon "scrub lists" were supposed to remove 8,000 registered voters, but some private investigators have claimed the number is as high as 173,000. Choicepoint (the company that has since acquired DBT) claims that these numbers are "simply wrong". Choicepoint asserts that many who claimed to have been "scrubbed" had attempted to vote at precincts in which they were not registered. [2]
Those removed from the voting rolls included people with no criminal convictions but who had the same names and birthdays as the felons; others were convicted only of misdemeanors, which should not have deprived them of the right to vote. Some, such as Thomas Cooper, even lost the right to vote because of alleged crimes committed in the future (Thomas Cooper's conviction date was January 30, 2007). On Election Day 2000, some persons, including those claiming to have been erroneously listed as felons, were reportedly turned away at the polls. The use of felon "scrub lists" was strongly criticized as an attempt to disenfranchise poor and African-American voters in particular. [3] [4] More than forty states permit ex-felons to vote after they have served their time; others require a civil pardon. Florida has a complex process which requires a released prisoner to apply to a state commission, the Executive Clemency board, for a restoration of civil rights.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.223.34 ( talk) 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the word "alleged"; the sentence in question reads "[w]ould have benefited...". Suffice it to say, that's speculation. Unless a) the bill passed and b) there was actual benefit, then it's only "alleged" as to what the effect of the bill might have beeen. Think about it. Merecat 23:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
If it's us as editors who are making the determination of what "would have" happened, it's a no-no because that's original research. On the other hand, if a reliable source says "would have", we can quote them. We are not to prognosticate. And in my view, an unsourced "would have" is also inherently a WP:POV violation and as such, should be barred on that basis as well. We would do best to simply quote the article that's being cited. Merecat 06:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Then the newspaper story should be quoted, not paraphrased. And the title of the newspaper story is a summary, not a fact. You must quote from the body of the newspaper article. The edit I objected to was not doing that. Merecat 02:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
regarding Riscorp
regarding MZM
Regarding the Riscorp issue, please understand - I take issue with the attempts by some here to imply that there was a quid pro quo. Harris was cleared by a state investigator. Insinuations that she did wrong regarding Riscorp, are a) false and b) POV. Elected officials submit favorable legislations all the time for local companies. Stop being so quick to only insert an anti-Harris line here. The anti-Harris partisans here are mucking up the honest history. The honest history is that sleezy companies think they can buy influence - and it's often the case that they think this. However, it's not often that elected officials knowingly take $$ either personally or via campaigns for specific acts or for legislation. The official state investigation regarding Harris/Riscorp concluded that did not happen here. Please stop trying to infer that it did! -- "Harris denied any knowledge of the scheme, was never charged with any crime and was cleared of wrongdoing by a state investigator." [9] Merecat 14:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Your statement of "If they do something that has the appearance of impropriety..." (the emphasis is mine) betrays that you misunderstand the nature of the Riscorp controversy. The "doing" involved there pertained to the receiving of defective contributions to Harris' campaign account. But it's important to understand that Harris was not personally involved in the "doing". And while her staffer may have been - as evidenced by the fact that Harris was cleared by a state investigator - Harris had no personal knowledge or involvement in the defective contributions transactions. Therefore, when you say that she needs to "be called on it", your are missing the point. The "it" which she can rightly be called on is poor oversight of her campaign staff, not the illegal act(s) by the contributor. An when you say "[i]t appeared something similar happened with MZM", you betray a biased intent to weave a misleading tapestry. With Riscorp, regarding Harris herself, the only thing which "happened" to her is that she was cleared of any wrongdoing. Now, if that's what you are saying is similar to MZM, I say your comments are premature, as MZM is still an open stinkpot. However, if you are saying that the "similarity" is that there are accusations and fingers being pointed about the illegal actions of others (not Harris's actions), well then, ok, there is some similarity. However, the similarity is passive. This is something which has happened to Harris, not something which she did. You are simply wrong in your premise of "if they do something". Harris did not "do domething" in the Riscorp issue, so by definition, there can not be something "similar" which she "did" with MZM. Regardless of what or if Harris "did" with MZM, it cannot be similar to Riscorp because the official determination there is that she did not do anything. If you are driving your car and drunk drivers hit you on two two different occassions, its true you were in two drunk driving crashes. However, if the 1st investigation clears you and states that you were sober, then the only possible similarity is that the other drivers were drunk both times - becaue you were sober the 1st time. Suffice it to say, we are still waiting to see if Harris was "sober" the 2nd time too. It think she was and time will tell. However, in the meantime, stop trying to infer that there is a tapestry of similarity here. There is not. Harris is innocent is regards to Riscorp, period. That is the end of the Riscorp story. There's no "similarity", there's no "irony", there's nothing. MZM and Riscorp have nothing whatsover to do with each other. Merecat 15:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Unless you have an agenda to push POV, the fact she was fully exonerated in Riscorp must be emphasized more that the partisan sniping of pundits in the media. Harris has been officially proven innocent regarding Riscorp. Therefore, to run with suggestions that it's "similar" to MZM - where there is still investigating under way, is simply false. If you can't get that, then I don't know what to tell you. If Harris had not been deemed innocent in Riscorp, then the snide conjectures from the media which you quote above, would have more weight. But, as it stands, they are no more relevant than if the media said she's got three heads. There has been an official factual finding of actual innocence. This is a very powerful and superceding truth. Get up out of the gutter of the media's false aspersions and look at the facts which have been proven true - not at a bunch of opinionated and false media hype. Merecat 16:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The episodes, from our editors' standpoint, are not "similar". Harris is innocent in Riscorp. Therefore, anything she did there, simply is not notable so far as the angle of "scandal" goes. Innocent means just that - didn't do anything wrong. Your breathless recitations of what did or did not happen, are aimed at implying she did do something wrong. You know that's what you are doing and you ought to stop it. Merecat 17:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
According to this archived article from NBC6.net (an NBC Afilliate [13])"Five Riscorp executives were indicted on charges of making illegal contributions in 1997, but a state investigation cleared Harris and other politicians of any wrongdoing. [14] Merecat 23:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is the same story on the web site of another FL news station [15]. I'm guessing these two news stations may be affiliated with each other. But, even if that is the case, it does not diminish that this is a news story, not an opinion piece. Merecat 23:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Look, either we accept as a fact that she was cleared or we don't. It's impossible to write coherent history, if we don't agree on the facts. If the facts are clear, we must accept them. It's only when the facts are in dispute, that we equivocate. In this instance, there can be no equivocation: Harris was cleared by a state investigation. And, since she was cleared, inferences that any open investigations of MZM are "similar" to the closed investigations of Riscorp must be avoided. There is no 'continuity of shenanigans' as the article has tried to imply. In fact, if we follow the logic of her being cleared previously, it's more likely than not that this "Neither Harris nor Goode appeared to know the donations were obtained illegally, U.S. Attorney Kenneth Wainstein said on Friday." [18] is going to be the end result of the MZM issue as well. Suffice it to say, I feel that the anti-Harris editors are leaping to conclusions here and trying to paint a picture of personal corruption where none exists. In fact, just a few days ago, this edit with the outrageous "Cunningham Scandal" template, which at that time looked like this was being inserted by Gorgonzilla into the Harris article. My aim has been to thwart POV mongers from painting with a broad brush here. There is simply not enough factual evidence being posted here which proves any personal corruption by Harris. If the editors want to focus on the poor oversight angle, which is obviously valid, then that's ok. There is no dispute that Harris' campaign failed to watch the donor gate carefully enough and allowed in $$ which was tainted on two occasions. However, I do object to and will oppose any ongoing efforts to vilify her personally as corrupt because of that. There is no proof of personal corruption and that editorial take must be foreclosed until (if ever) there is. Merecat 02:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Rollins has started attacking Harris over the Wade/MZM scandal. In particular accusing her of lying over accepting a $2800 meal from Wade. This is an absolutely blatant violation of Congressional ethics rules that even a junior staffer knows is illegal. The gift limit is $50, no exceptions, especially meals.
There can be no excuse for not mentioning the Wade issue in the introduction. Harris has been mentioned in court documents, she has lied over her involvement repeatedly, the local press is attacking her for having lied. This is page one stuff. Burying it in the article is POV.-- Gorgonzilla 14:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Merecat keeps trying to edit this article in a highly partisan fashion to eliminate references to the MZM Wade scandal. He repeatedly removes any mention of the scandal in the introduction despite the fact that Ed Rollins, the top GOP political consultant has stated that this was the reason for him quiting the Harris campaign. -- Gorgonzilla 15:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Christian bigotry has no place on the wiki. Many Muslims support Sharia. Should a politician not speak to Muslims because of that? So then, even if what you say is true, is Harris not supposed to speak to those Christians? It's simply not notable and not controversial except in a few editor's minds. Merecat 07:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I ask other editors here to stop making blanket reverts of my edits. I am making individual edits, so as to allow for maximum consensus editing opportunities. Please afford me a similar courtesy in return. Thank you. Merecat 18:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Please dialog about specific edits and stop all the complaining. Merecat 07:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What more can I say? thewolfstar 07:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Evidently you can't give actual examples. Having seen your handiwork trying to insert diatribes on the second ammendment into the Democratic party article it does not appear that you are adverse to propaganda or opinion if it matches your own prejudices. -- Gorgonzilla 12:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In reply to Gorgonzilla
First, to set the record staight, I personally detest Katherine Harris, all her cronies and everything she stands for. You apparantly do, too. However, this, like any article, should be unbiased, not a reflection of the opinion of it's editors.
This is an encyclopedia article. It should be well rounded...not biased in any direction.
These are sections in the Harris article. Here is how they read. They are statements of fact. I don't even doubt that. But it comes off like an editorial in a publication, rather than an encyclopedia article.
Florida Senate & Riscorp: dirt on Harris.. blah blah blah
International travel: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
2000 Presidential election: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
Attire and appearance: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
2002 and 2004 races: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
Controversy from the MZM Scandal: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
Then, a little later on..
Sexuality criticism: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
If some of this stuff was left in, along with other neutral sections, I wouldn't have any objection to it.
Also, the bias starts right in the first section. "In 2005, Harris' campaign accepted contributions, later shown to be illegal, from defense contractor Mitchell Wade. In March 2006 many of her staff resigned, including Ed Rollins. In response to widespread speculation that she may quit the race, Harris pledged to continue the campaign with $10 million of her own funds." This is way too much to include in the opening paragraph of an article
I hope you find what I wrote helpful. thewolfstar 16:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
You're probably right about good facts not existing. I would be surprised if good facts could be found. Just put some more neutral stuff in it. You asked "What changes to the lede would you suggest?" I just said what changes I would suggest. Take the whole bit out of the lead:
Both Thewolfstar and Flawiki are speaking honestly here. This article is a mess, but some progress has been made. Let's keep trying to make progress. Merecat 19:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Well if it's all true I don't see a problem with it. Honestly I can't think of another use for an article on any politician other than legislation they have actually passed. -- Mboverload 22:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that the sexulity criticism section should probably be knifed. The material there is essentially just a repeat without attribution of the Jon Stewart send up, which though richly deserved is impossible to explian in words. The rest however is simply a consequence of the fact that she is a scandal plagued politician. The standard metric for pol in trouble is when their own party is attacking her. That is what is going on here and the article should reflect it. The various scandals could probably be combined into a single section on 'Allegations of corruption' and the 2005 count should probably be little more than a link to the main article. -- Gorgonzilla 10:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Somebody have at these suggested changes and let's see how they look. Merecat 22:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
This whole article is a total hatchet job on this woman; worse than anything I've ever seen at Wikipedia. Is there one decent thing said about her here? If so, I can't find it. CsikosLo 14:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't have any objection to it, if it would read more like an encyclopedia article and less like an editorial or something you might find on a blog. Can't more neutral facts be found...just plain facts that don't support or incriminate her? Maggie thewolfstar 04:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Both matter. Merecat 09:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What's the actual bit of content which is under discussion here? Because I know that these sort of arguments usually go nowhere if they're not actually discussing a piece of the article, so let me save you the time: pick a word, sentence, or paragraph to discuss the merit of. The usual abstract debate on the philosophical nature of truth/verifiability/notability/good/bad tends to get old. Best, KWH 06:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
"Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families. Her late grandfather, Ben Hill Griffin, was a citrus baron and state legislator, and one of the state's largest landowners." [19].
Since when is such a fact "POV"?
"She is also one of the heirs to the fortune of Ben Hill Griffin Jr., a citrus and cattle magnate. Griffin, Harris's grandfather, is also the namesake of the stadium where the University of Florida plays football." [20].
Why do statements that revert reference to these facts keep getting deleted? -- Sholom 18:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
While nobody answered the above question, I will provide more references. Here her father is listed as one of the top 50 more important Floridians of the century. In that article you can read how his father was a US Senator, that he ran for the governorship, that he controlled nearly 300K acres of citrus, he chaired a blue-ribbon commission (appointed by the person who defeated him for governor), he donated $20 million to U. Fla., the stadium is named after him, and an auditorium at its Citrus Research and Education Center in Lake Alfred; and he was ranked as one of the richest men in America. ( Here I see a public school is named after him.) Umm, wouldn't you say that the combination of all this is "wealthy" and "influential" ? Particularly when two news sources also mentioned that (i.e., showing that this is not original research). What in the heck is POV about that? What bias is that? I can't even tell which direction the bias is supposed to be. The Kennedys are rich and influential. So are the Bushes and Rockefellers. What's the bias? I don't get it! -- Sholom 20:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
If a reliable source calls her family "influential", we can also call them that. But it must be cited. If her parents were wealthy and you can cite it, then do it. These edits were made by another and I agree with them. Either cite these characterizations or leave them out. Merecat 00:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Uh oh, election year on Wikipedia. Shit's going down. -- kizzle 03:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
"Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families. Her late grandfather, Ben Hill Griffin, was a citrus baron and state legislator, and one of the state's largest landowners." [21].
Now Dave Thomas has removed the word "wealthy" as POV. Ben Hill Griffin was on the Forbes 400 list of the richest people in America. If he was not wealthy, then the word has no meaning. Seriously, why are you people wasting everyone's time with this nonsense? Gamaliel 04:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this:
"Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families. Her late grandfather, Ben Hill Griffin, was a citrus baron and state legislator, and one of the state's largest landowners." [22].
I support Gamaliel's desire to see this reinserted, with the exception that I prefer it read:
Harris was born in Key West, Florida. Her grandfather was Ben Hill Griffin, Jr., a wealthy businessman in the cattle and citrus industries who served in the state house and senate. The Ben Hill Griffin Stadium at the University of Florida is named for him. [23]
Let's discuss this. Merecat 05:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Not all attempts at accuracy pass the POV smell test. I sense there is an attempt underfoot here to paint Harris as an elitist. I am therefore, suspicious about too much family detail. It has no bearing on her merit as a candidate and it's her political career which makes her notable. Look at the John Kerry article. The Forbes family were drug smugglers. However that's not Kerry's fault so we avoid saying it that way. Look at Ted Kennedy. His father was a rum runner and a likely mafia associate of Sam Giancana. That's not Ted's fault. Harris's grandfather may have been wealthy, but "baron" is often a pejorative when applied to wealth. Surely you must know that? Merecat 06:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Coming here from the RfC... I don't have a problem with "Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families." and the rest. Yes, "most influential" is slightly subjective, but assuming its true, its OK to include. The rest is fine too, except that I would not user the term "baron". Although use in this way has a long history, it's just a tad informal (he's not an actual Peer) and has just a bit too much negativity associated with it. How about "citrus grower"? The opening sentence and "...state's largest landowners" makes it pretty clear that we're not talking about some shlub with a little grove, here. Herostratus 06:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
CBS called him a baron, not this article. Plenty of glowing biographies of Griffin describe him as a baron and mean it in a complementary way. But that's beside the point. Nobody wants to call him a baron, we'd just like to mention the fact that he was wealthy and influential, and that was what you and Dave have objected to. Gamaliel 06:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps Harris's grandfather was influential. But to say she was "born into a wealthy and influential family" is not precise. Who in the family was wealthy? When? And who says? And properly speaking unless her parents were "influential", her family is not - not fully anyway. If grand-dad was "influential" and we can cite that, then the sentence must be re-written to make sure that it's grand-dad being referred to, not some imprecise, vague "family".
Harris was born in Key West, Florida. Her grandfather was Ben Hill Griffin, Jr., an influential, wealthy businessman in the cattle and citrus industries who served in the state house and senate. The Ben Hill Griffin Stadium at the University of Florida is named for him. [25]
How this? Merecat 17:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gamaliel, you are joshing right? CBS is not NPOV and suggesting it is grows tiresome. Was it not CBS that foisted the Killian documents spoof on the viewing audience? So what if CBS says it? Are you saying we should quote every news source verbatim on everything and even with that, we will achieve NPOV? If you demand CBS, I'm going to have to insist that you quote it something like this:
According to CBS, "Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families." citation needed Her grandfather was Ben Hill Griffin, Jr., a businessman in the cattle and citrus industries who served in the state house and senate. The Ben Hill Griffin Stadium at the University of Florida is named for him. [26]
Personally, I feel that CBS is becoming a poor source at a rapid pace, but I'm willing to be flexible here, are you? Merecat 17:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gamaliel, it's not "absurd" and please don't say that. Frankly, CBS has recently begun to tatter around the edges in regards to objectivity and accuracy. If you deny that, you are denying the truth. Even so, I didn't say to not use CBS. Rather (no pun intended), I said regarding this particular point, if we use CBS, let's use a verbatim quote. Merecat 21:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gamaliel, you are leaping to harsh conclusions. I want that in quotes to point out that's the verbatim language. I do not want any paraphrasing on this because this line of description is only being editited in here so as to label Harris as an elitist anyway. Personally, I feel we are overplaying this aspect. But since it are including this, combined with the fact that CBS has less credibility lately, it makes sense to do a verbatim quote. Merecat 23:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I took a big knife to the lede (hopefully not too big a knife) with the intent to address Thewolfstar's NPOV tagging as well as my own preference for short & sweet ledes. My intent was to remove only stuff repeated or (IMO, of course) more appropriately placed later in the article. If I toasted original stuff it was inadvertant, please go ahead and slip it back in. -- Flawiki 23:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. Most people in the country don't even know her name. She's most famous in FL for having served as Sec State and Congress, not merely for her 2000 role. Without accurate NPOV polling proof of Gamaliel's assertion, I would oppose. Merecat 23:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I repeat: Most people in the country don't even know her name. The notion that she is "famous" for 2000 exists primarily in the thinking of political junkies. Merecat 00:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
"Name recognition remained a problem for her, though..." -- March 29, 2006 Mason-Dixon Poll. [27] Merecat 05:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The Dems are jealous? Merecat 05:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeb and the Pubbies do support Harris. They have not backed off from this. Merecat 05:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
More details to aid research. Merecat 05:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to talk about the makeup issue, let's at least be fair to Harris and print her actual recent reply when questioned about that.
Here's the original source:
- Harris: "I haven't worn blue eye shadow since 7th grade and some of those photographs had me in blue eye shadow.
- Fountain: "But you don't really think the newspapers doctored your photos?
- Harris: "I just question why there was blue eye shadow. But it doesn't matter. Why are we talking about this? Kathy, that's so silly. Because people care about the issues. If the media wants to talk about appearances that's different, but I'm not going to talk about it. That's demeaning to women...They don't talk about men's balding or their weight, or their diminutive size."
Hmmm.... Maybe Harris knows something about Nelson she's not telling? Merecat 05:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
And this: "The late-night chatterers, many of whom either (predictably) voted for Gore, or (thankfully) did not vote at all, ridiculed the attractive Harris’s choice of clothes and make-up. Print reporters, generally not a very stylish crowd themselves, followed suit." Found here. Merecat 05:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This section is gossipy trash, and has no place in the article. Aside from its obviously dubious notability, most of it violates WP:V by citing bloggers as its prime source. The Daily Show, also is not an appropriate source for this particular sections as it is a satirical program. I have therefore removed the entire section. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It's no big deal. Others have already said they were going to do it (see above) but just never did. So now, it's done. Move along, nothing to see here. Merecat 15:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Harris has been the subject of jokes regarding her makeup, attire and photographs. On The Tonight Show, Jay Leno said that "they had trucks in Florida bringing the ballots to Tallahassee... It's the same trucks they used to bring the makeup to Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris." [28] During the 2000-2001 season of Saturday Night Live, comedian Ana Gasteyer did an impression of Harris. [29]
In January 2005, Harris told the
Associated Press that "the jokes about my appearance–it's the computer-enhanced photos...It was like in a comic strip. They actually had blue eye shadow on front pages of newspapers and I haven't had blue eye shadow since Girl Scouts in seventh grade." On August 1, 2005, Harris was a guest on
Sean Hannity's
talk radio program on
ABC Radio. Hannity asked Harris whether the jokes bothered her, and Harris told him that "I'm actually very sensitive about those things, and it's personally painful...You know, whenever they made fun of my makeup, it was because the newspapers colorized my photograph." On August 2, 2005, Harris and her staff were asked to point to a colorized photograph. According to spokesman Adam Goodman, Harris said that "I haven't worn blue eye shadow since the seventh grade when I was in the Girl Scouts". William March of the Tampa Tribune wrote "She didn't name a newspaper that showed blue eye shadow." When asked why Harris would accuse newspapers of altering her photograph, Goodman said "I think what she's saying is the number of photographs that were run that were unflattering was large, and that was unfair because the only reason this was made a caricature built around cosmetics was because she was a woman,"
[30].
Some critics have derided Harris for apparently trying to highlight her feminine attributes in campaign appearances. In particular, some panned an appearance on Hannity & Colmes in which Harris stood in profile for the entire interview (being shown from the waist up) as an attempt to feature her breasts as prominently as possible. Video of the appearance was posted on Crooks and Liars, and bloggers such as Ana Marie Cox have provided additional photographs of Harris, with criticism. [31] [32]
The
Daily Show recently satirized Harris regarding her bosom. On the show,
Jason Jones cited the
Hannity & Colmes interview and referred to her attire at a rodeo campaign stop as "tit-hugging spandex", along with other sexually themed comments about Harris.
[33]. Harris supporters have rejoined that similar remarks about a Democratic candidate's sexual appearance would have provoked a media firestorm of allegations of "gender insensitivity" and "anti-woman" bias.
Political columnist and blogger
Michelle Malkin recently rebuked Harris's sexuality critics, charging them with "liberal sexism."
[34] However, some conservatives have also criticized Harris for her choice of tight clothing in campaign appearances.
[35]
This material
keeps finding itself wiped, restored, wiped, restored but moved, wiped again, and as of now, restored and moved back once more. It should remain (subject to further improvement) because it's sourced, it's verifiable, it's relevant, and it's notable (else why would the subject, mired in a difficult campaign, have attended?). A sage fellow editor indicated the most recent removal was because the subject headline implied that it was potentially scandalous. I understand that concern and don't necessarily disagree with it, however the material is still relevant/verifiable/notable etc. In an attempt to move on I've put it back in a temporal context where I had it a week or ago with the hope that in doing so the criticism is satisfactorily addressed. -- Flawiki 11:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Please explain to me, why is the mission of the group notable enough to mention in this article? Uh, perhaps because certain editors here consider speaking to Christians to be scandalous? If not, why was this talk section given a "gate" name ("reclaimamericagate") ala watergate, plamegate, etc? The simple fact is that Harrris has not only a right, but a duty to seek the votes of all citizens. If seeking the votes of this particular group of Christians requires that she "headline" their meeting with a talk, then so be it. No one would dare make hay about anyone speaking at NAACP or ADL. To suggest that 'Reclaim America' is so notorious that their "mission" must be hung around the neck of anyone invited to "headline" is very offensive to me. Merecat 15:26, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is the "mission" of that group being mentioned here germane to this article? Make an article for the group and mention it there. If people want to read more, they can read it there. This is nothing more than well-poisoning attempt. It's an attempt to make Harris seem vile for speaking to those who want to proselytize and convert others to their faith. It's absurd to suggest that Christians are vile enough that a goal of Godly government ought to be hung on the neck of anyone who talks to them. It's guilt by association. Where the proof that Harris herself wants to "reclaim America for Christ"? If and when she says that and we source it, then that can go in the article, but not this suggestive innuendo! For these reasons, the 2nd sentence of "The stated mission of the group is to 'come together to reclaim this land for Christ" has been deleted by me as being irrelevant and POV in regards to Harris herself. Merecat 15:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
ThuranX, I urge you to desist from making personal allegations about me. I find it offensive. Also, this speaking engagement was clearly nothing more than a campaign stop. If you want to assert that Harris is pesronally affiliated with this group and/or on a personal level, seeks to "reclaim America for Christ", then you must find reliable citations which substantiate that. As it stands, there is proof only that she spoke there as a candidate, but no proof that Harris is in league with these nefarious Christians and their zealous attempts to overthrow the Constitution in favor of the Bible. When you find a reliable source supporting your thesis regading this we can go with it, not until. The 2nd sentence should stay out. Merecat 16:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
If accurately cited to Harris, reporting her statements is fine. Merecat 16:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
No censorship has taken place, please stop saying things like that. You asserted your edits, I asserted mine and we met in the middle. It's called consensus. Also, the "sentence" you refer to was inaccurate and POV when I deleted it. Now that it's accurate, it's not POV. Frankly, I think you did a great job of helping the Harris message get out by triggering these new edits. Was that your intent? Merecat 17:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
ALright, I've had it. The sentence goes back in, as ORIGINALLY CITED, with accurate content. ThuranX 17:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
God haters RULE! ... on wikedpedia! 98.198.48.17 ( talk) 21:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I've {{protect}}ed after trying to represent both sides in that paragraph, in hope that the cooling off period thus invoked will stave off a bunch of 3RRs and let us try to resolve this on the talk page.
Here is the material as it stood pre-protection:
Absent a ReclaimAmerica article I think the above could be expanded either to include mentioning its directory Gary Cass who seems to be notable on his own, or perhaps this article itself could use a religion in government policy position note as the subject's own speech topic at the conference was Bringing Faith to the Public Forum-- Flawiki 17:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I object to the title of this section as being anti-Christian bigotry. Accordingly, I have striken one word. Merecat 17:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
More insults from ThuranX, thanks guy. Also, I too like the edit as it stands now. But, I don't know what a "religion in government policy position note" is and I think that might open a new can of worms. Also "Bringing Faith to the Public Forum" does not equate to "religion in government policy", at least no how I see it. Merecat 18:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
August 7, 2003 Bradenton, FL town meeting sources:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wfeidt ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 14 August 2003 (UTC)
Was she, or was she not, chair of Choicepoint - the bunch that made the voting rolls for FL and just happened to omit thousands of voters who just happen to tend to the Democrat - and W's FL campaign manager while she was supervisor of elections for JEB? Some people - we're not all on fluoride yet - think there'd be some sort of conflict there. [1] If it's true, I think it should be mentioned; if not, it's a common misperception which should be straightened out. 142.177.15.190 01:00, 18 Apr 2004
I re-inserted this category and the excised text. It's not at all clear why the politician's public policy positions would lack relevance to her wiki article, would you please discuss your take on it? Thanks Flawiki 09:52, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I thought Gamaliel's compromise handling of the situation with regard to the stem cell matter was superior to the conflicting treatments given it by either myself or any of the three other coordinating editors. Today's edits restored a POV version of the paragraph that was previously edited to something more NPOV. Would the editor please revert to Gamaliel's no-POV version? Flawiki 20:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
Update: I've reverted Voldemort's ressurection of the offending passage. Flawiki 12:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
This article is horribly POV. There's almost nothing on how she would be the second most sextastic senator in the country, second only to Landrieu from Louisiana. And you keep putting in relevant facts about stupid things she's done! For shame! -- BarrettBrown 05:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This should be in a seperate section perhaps one describing the 2004 race (there's stuff to put in here on Schneider for ex). If the above section regarding the stem cell situation is ever resolved I'll volunteer to fix it if
201.58.189.189 doesn't want to.
Flawiki 20:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC) New sections added about about a week ago or so.
Flawiki 21:42, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
According to an article by David Park Musella of the Skeptical Inquirer, when Harris was Florida secretary of state, she ordered a formal study of "celestial drops" as a remedy for a citrus crop disease. The product was 100% hogwash. I'd like to add this to the article, but I'm not sure whether it should get its own section or what. Comments?
Okay, does ordering a formal study on a product that is then proved hogwash a bad thing or a good thing? I would have been much more horrified if "celestial drops" had been bought by the government without a study. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.108.123 ( talk) 19:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason why this categorical justification of stem cell research opposition should be noted here and not on its own page? It doesn't say anything about whether this was Harris personal motivation for voting against the measure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoplifter ( talk • contribs) 12:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I revised the "2000 Presidential Election" section from "Because Vice-President Gore had (barely) won the nation's popular vote" to "Because Vice-President Gore had won the nation's popular vote". It seems as though including "(barely)" would constitute a bias.
I don't think the word "barely" is an accurate description of a 543,816 popular vote margin, so yeah it seemed pretty biased to me. Thanks for the edit.
Mtmelendez 14:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
"This seemingly far-right Christian movement seeks to remove the separation of church and state tradition of American government." This statement isn't true as the separation of church and state is not in the US Constitution, which is the basis of American government. Nor did I find it on the website. Not to mention somewhat of a bias that those not up on American political talk would understand. Thus was it removed.
Tonight, I made quite a few minor edits and a few major ones. Please dialog with me here if you take issue with any or all them. I ask that each here afford me the courtesy of not "blanket" reverting all my edits in toto. I've put much thought into them and I am trying to be NPOV. thank you. Merecat 08:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Your condemnation of my edits is too broad to be addressed en masse [2]. Please link diffs one at a time here with your objections to each diff and I will reasonably dialog with you towards a jointly acceptable resolution for each of your objections. I suggest that we start with the three edits which bother you the most. Merecat 20:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that making demands of the type you are making is either fair or productive. See this link Talk:Florida Central Voter File to see how effective talk page dialog occurs. You may not be up to the task of consensus editing, but others are. And frankly, I take umbrage at your tone. To me, you sound condescending, verging on hostile. Merecat 02:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Please state for me why you think each of those should be re-inserted. Please take into account the ES I made for each repsective edit. I think my changes arre correct and have stated reasons for them with individual edit summaries. Merecat 02:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I made edits, I supported each edit with a distinct Edit Summary. Blanket dismissals don't suffice. Merecat 07:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Flawiki, your POV is coloring your edits here. While you may consider it controversial for a politician to address a religious group; absent confirmed reports from neutral, reliable sources who contend that he speech resulted in controversy or was itself controversial, your characterization of it as such is incorrect. And, if indeed she spoke there as a headliner, supply a citation. And, if indeed that talk stirred controvery, supply a citation. In fact, you only supplied a link to the group itself, but no link to any information about the event she spoke at. So, Harris spoke at a religious group? Big deal? Do they vote? Are any members of that group in FL? If she wins, she will be representing the whole state. Is she supposed to not speak to those people? Why, because what that group stands for offends you? Merecat 15:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Flawiki, your complaints need to be more specific. I disagree that your revert of those edits was warranted and I have restored them by reverting you. Merecat 07:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, contingent upon you 1st listing three specific things which concern you the most. Merecat 19:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The net result of including this is to push a POV view that Harris campaign is failing. You can't do that. You also have to quote someone who says it's doing well. Merecat 23:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You are 100% wrong. If you insert material, the net effect of that maertial has to be NPOV, or others are free to remove it. If you fail to address the shortcomings I have pointed out to you, I will delete that meterial. Merecat 03:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
Enough is enough. With Harris in the news, this is an important topic and many people will be visiting this page. The childish, partisan POV-pushing needs to end now. POV pushing is unacceptable no matter where it is found. The repeated tagging of this article by Merecat is disruptive, and attempts to justify this edit war by suggesting that the recounting of facts needs, as a matter of course, to be balanced by some competing (i.e. pat, political, spokesman-speak, pandering, sugar-coated) view is ridiculous and unencyclopedic.
User:Merecat's statement I cited above is a disturbing demonstration of a fundamental miscomprehension about what WP articles need to achieve; I believe deliberately so, stretching the ability to assume good faith. As a result, I believe this should be taken to mediation and a request made that the issue be reviewed; ideally, Merecat will be prevented from these disruptive edits and what amounts to a violation (in effect) of the 3R rule. I have looked through the edit history of this article, and I don't see how accusations of systematic POV pushing can be justified wrt any of the other good faith editors of this article. Please respond if there are reasonable objections to mediation, but not of the "unless we have counter-balancing quotes from Harris' campaign spokesman this is POV"-kind which is not helpful. Eusebeus 00:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following because there was no clear connection what this content had to do with Katherine Harris. Well documented though, but seemingly unrelated. If whomever author re-adds this, please make relevance more distinctive. After Miami mayor Xavier Suarez was removed from office in 1998 due to absentee ballot fraud, state election officials hired Database Technologies Inc. (DBT) of Boca Raton to scan the state's database of registered voters for felons, who are prohibited from voting by state law, and for dead people. [1] The felon "scrub lists" were supposed to remove 8,000 registered voters, but some private investigators have claimed the number is as high as 173,000. Choicepoint (the company that has since acquired DBT) claims that these numbers are "simply wrong". Choicepoint asserts that many who claimed to have been "scrubbed" had attempted to vote at precincts in which they were not registered. [2]
Those removed from the voting rolls included people with no criminal convictions but who had the same names and birthdays as the felons; others were convicted only of misdemeanors, which should not have deprived them of the right to vote. Some, such as Thomas Cooper, even lost the right to vote because of alleged crimes committed in the future (Thomas Cooper's conviction date was January 30, 2007). On Election Day 2000, some persons, including those claiming to have been erroneously listed as felons, were reportedly turned away at the polls. The use of felon "scrub lists" was strongly criticized as an attempt to disenfranchise poor and African-American voters in particular. [3] [4] More than forty states permit ex-felons to vote after they have served their time; others require a civil pardon. Florida has a complex process which requires a released prisoner to apply to a state commission, the Executive Clemency board, for a restoration of civil rights.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.223.34 ( talk) 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the word "alleged"; the sentence in question reads "[w]ould have benefited...". Suffice it to say, that's speculation. Unless a) the bill passed and b) there was actual benefit, then it's only "alleged" as to what the effect of the bill might have beeen. Think about it. Merecat 23:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
If it's us as editors who are making the determination of what "would have" happened, it's a no-no because that's original research. On the other hand, if a reliable source says "would have", we can quote them. We are not to prognosticate. And in my view, an unsourced "would have" is also inherently a WP:POV violation and as such, should be barred on that basis as well. We would do best to simply quote the article that's being cited. Merecat 06:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Then the newspaper story should be quoted, not paraphrased. And the title of the newspaper story is a summary, not a fact. You must quote from the body of the newspaper article. The edit I objected to was not doing that. Merecat 02:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
regarding Riscorp
regarding MZM
Regarding the Riscorp issue, please understand - I take issue with the attempts by some here to imply that there was a quid pro quo. Harris was cleared by a state investigator. Insinuations that she did wrong regarding Riscorp, are a) false and b) POV. Elected officials submit favorable legislations all the time for local companies. Stop being so quick to only insert an anti-Harris line here. The anti-Harris partisans here are mucking up the honest history. The honest history is that sleezy companies think they can buy influence - and it's often the case that they think this. However, it's not often that elected officials knowingly take $$ either personally or via campaigns for specific acts or for legislation. The official state investigation regarding Harris/Riscorp concluded that did not happen here. Please stop trying to infer that it did! -- "Harris denied any knowledge of the scheme, was never charged with any crime and was cleared of wrongdoing by a state investigator." [9] Merecat 14:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Your statement of "If they do something that has the appearance of impropriety..." (the emphasis is mine) betrays that you misunderstand the nature of the Riscorp controversy. The "doing" involved there pertained to the receiving of defective contributions to Harris' campaign account. But it's important to understand that Harris was not personally involved in the "doing". And while her staffer may have been - as evidenced by the fact that Harris was cleared by a state investigator - Harris had no personal knowledge or involvement in the defective contributions transactions. Therefore, when you say that she needs to "be called on it", your are missing the point. The "it" which she can rightly be called on is poor oversight of her campaign staff, not the illegal act(s) by the contributor. An when you say "[i]t appeared something similar happened with MZM", you betray a biased intent to weave a misleading tapestry. With Riscorp, regarding Harris herself, the only thing which "happened" to her is that she was cleared of any wrongdoing. Now, if that's what you are saying is similar to MZM, I say your comments are premature, as MZM is still an open stinkpot. However, if you are saying that the "similarity" is that there are accusations and fingers being pointed about the illegal actions of others (not Harris's actions), well then, ok, there is some similarity. However, the similarity is passive. This is something which has happened to Harris, not something which she did. You are simply wrong in your premise of "if they do something". Harris did not "do domething" in the Riscorp issue, so by definition, there can not be something "similar" which she "did" with MZM. Regardless of what or if Harris "did" with MZM, it cannot be similar to Riscorp because the official determination there is that she did not do anything. If you are driving your car and drunk drivers hit you on two two different occassions, its true you were in two drunk driving crashes. However, if the 1st investigation clears you and states that you were sober, then the only possible similarity is that the other drivers were drunk both times - becaue you were sober the 1st time. Suffice it to say, we are still waiting to see if Harris was "sober" the 2nd time too. It think she was and time will tell. However, in the meantime, stop trying to infer that there is a tapestry of similarity here. There is not. Harris is innocent is regards to Riscorp, period. That is the end of the Riscorp story. There's no "similarity", there's no "irony", there's nothing. MZM and Riscorp have nothing whatsover to do with each other. Merecat 15:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Unless you have an agenda to push POV, the fact she was fully exonerated in Riscorp must be emphasized more that the partisan sniping of pundits in the media. Harris has been officially proven innocent regarding Riscorp. Therefore, to run with suggestions that it's "similar" to MZM - where there is still investigating under way, is simply false. If you can't get that, then I don't know what to tell you. If Harris had not been deemed innocent in Riscorp, then the snide conjectures from the media which you quote above, would have more weight. But, as it stands, they are no more relevant than if the media said she's got three heads. There has been an official factual finding of actual innocence. This is a very powerful and superceding truth. Get up out of the gutter of the media's false aspersions and look at the facts which have been proven true - not at a bunch of opinionated and false media hype. Merecat 16:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The episodes, from our editors' standpoint, are not "similar". Harris is innocent in Riscorp. Therefore, anything she did there, simply is not notable so far as the angle of "scandal" goes. Innocent means just that - didn't do anything wrong. Your breathless recitations of what did or did not happen, are aimed at implying she did do something wrong. You know that's what you are doing and you ought to stop it. Merecat 17:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
According to this archived article from NBC6.net (an NBC Afilliate [13])"Five Riscorp executives were indicted on charges of making illegal contributions in 1997, but a state investigation cleared Harris and other politicians of any wrongdoing. [14] Merecat 23:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is the same story on the web site of another FL news station [15]. I'm guessing these two news stations may be affiliated with each other. But, even if that is the case, it does not diminish that this is a news story, not an opinion piece. Merecat 23:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Look, either we accept as a fact that she was cleared or we don't. It's impossible to write coherent history, if we don't agree on the facts. If the facts are clear, we must accept them. It's only when the facts are in dispute, that we equivocate. In this instance, there can be no equivocation: Harris was cleared by a state investigation. And, since she was cleared, inferences that any open investigations of MZM are "similar" to the closed investigations of Riscorp must be avoided. There is no 'continuity of shenanigans' as the article has tried to imply. In fact, if we follow the logic of her being cleared previously, it's more likely than not that this "Neither Harris nor Goode appeared to know the donations were obtained illegally, U.S. Attorney Kenneth Wainstein said on Friday." [18] is going to be the end result of the MZM issue as well. Suffice it to say, I feel that the anti-Harris editors are leaping to conclusions here and trying to paint a picture of personal corruption where none exists. In fact, just a few days ago, this edit with the outrageous "Cunningham Scandal" template, which at that time looked like this was being inserted by Gorgonzilla into the Harris article. My aim has been to thwart POV mongers from painting with a broad brush here. There is simply not enough factual evidence being posted here which proves any personal corruption by Harris. If the editors want to focus on the poor oversight angle, which is obviously valid, then that's ok. There is no dispute that Harris' campaign failed to watch the donor gate carefully enough and allowed in $$ which was tainted on two occasions. However, I do object to and will oppose any ongoing efforts to vilify her personally as corrupt because of that. There is no proof of personal corruption and that editorial take must be foreclosed until (if ever) there is. Merecat 02:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Rollins has started attacking Harris over the Wade/MZM scandal. In particular accusing her of lying over accepting a $2800 meal from Wade. This is an absolutely blatant violation of Congressional ethics rules that even a junior staffer knows is illegal. The gift limit is $50, no exceptions, especially meals.
There can be no excuse for not mentioning the Wade issue in the introduction. Harris has been mentioned in court documents, she has lied over her involvement repeatedly, the local press is attacking her for having lied. This is page one stuff. Burying it in the article is POV.-- Gorgonzilla 14:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Merecat keeps trying to edit this article in a highly partisan fashion to eliminate references to the MZM Wade scandal. He repeatedly removes any mention of the scandal in the introduction despite the fact that Ed Rollins, the top GOP political consultant has stated that this was the reason for him quiting the Harris campaign. -- Gorgonzilla 15:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Christian bigotry has no place on the wiki. Many Muslims support Sharia. Should a politician not speak to Muslims because of that? So then, even if what you say is true, is Harris not supposed to speak to those Christians? It's simply not notable and not controversial except in a few editor's minds. Merecat 07:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I ask other editors here to stop making blanket reverts of my edits. I am making individual edits, so as to allow for maximum consensus editing opportunities. Please afford me a similar courtesy in return. Thank you. Merecat 18:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Please dialog about specific edits and stop all the complaining. Merecat 07:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What more can I say? thewolfstar 07:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Evidently you can't give actual examples. Having seen your handiwork trying to insert diatribes on the second ammendment into the Democratic party article it does not appear that you are adverse to propaganda or opinion if it matches your own prejudices. -- Gorgonzilla 12:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In reply to Gorgonzilla
First, to set the record staight, I personally detest Katherine Harris, all her cronies and everything she stands for. You apparantly do, too. However, this, like any article, should be unbiased, not a reflection of the opinion of it's editors.
This is an encyclopedia article. It should be well rounded...not biased in any direction.
These are sections in the Harris article. Here is how they read. They are statements of fact. I don't even doubt that. But it comes off like an editorial in a publication, rather than an encyclopedia article.
Florida Senate & Riscorp: dirt on Harris.. blah blah blah
International travel: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
2000 Presidential election: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
Attire and appearance: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
2002 and 2004 races: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
Controversy from the MZM Scandal: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
Then, a little later on..
Sexuality criticism: dirt on Harris..blah blah blah
If some of this stuff was left in, along with other neutral sections, I wouldn't have any objection to it.
Also, the bias starts right in the first section. "In 2005, Harris' campaign accepted contributions, later shown to be illegal, from defense contractor Mitchell Wade. In March 2006 many of her staff resigned, including Ed Rollins. In response to widespread speculation that she may quit the race, Harris pledged to continue the campaign with $10 million of her own funds." This is way too much to include in the opening paragraph of an article
I hope you find what I wrote helpful. thewolfstar 16:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
You're probably right about good facts not existing. I would be surprised if good facts could be found. Just put some more neutral stuff in it. You asked "What changes to the lede would you suggest?" I just said what changes I would suggest. Take the whole bit out of the lead:
Both Thewolfstar and Flawiki are speaking honestly here. This article is a mess, but some progress has been made. Let's keep trying to make progress. Merecat 19:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Well if it's all true I don't see a problem with it. Honestly I can't think of another use for an article on any politician other than legislation they have actually passed. -- Mboverload 22:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that the sexulity criticism section should probably be knifed. The material there is essentially just a repeat without attribution of the Jon Stewart send up, which though richly deserved is impossible to explian in words. The rest however is simply a consequence of the fact that she is a scandal plagued politician. The standard metric for pol in trouble is when their own party is attacking her. That is what is going on here and the article should reflect it. The various scandals could probably be combined into a single section on 'Allegations of corruption' and the 2005 count should probably be little more than a link to the main article. -- Gorgonzilla 10:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Somebody have at these suggested changes and let's see how they look. Merecat 22:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
This whole article is a total hatchet job on this woman; worse than anything I've ever seen at Wikipedia. Is there one decent thing said about her here? If so, I can't find it. CsikosLo 14:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't have any objection to it, if it would read more like an encyclopedia article and less like an editorial or something you might find on a blog. Can't more neutral facts be found...just plain facts that don't support or incriminate her? Maggie thewolfstar 04:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Both matter. Merecat 09:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What's the actual bit of content which is under discussion here? Because I know that these sort of arguments usually go nowhere if they're not actually discussing a piece of the article, so let me save you the time: pick a word, sentence, or paragraph to discuss the merit of. The usual abstract debate on the philosophical nature of truth/verifiability/notability/good/bad tends to get old. Best, KWH 06:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
"Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families. Her late grandfather, Ben Hill Griffin, was a citrus baron and state legislator, and one of the state's largest landowners." [19].
Since when is such a fact "POV"?
"She is also one of the heirs to the fortune of Ben Hill Griffin Jr., a citrus and cattle magnate. Griffin, Harris's grandfather, is also the namesake of the stadium where the University of Florida plays football." [20].
Why do statements that revert reference to these facts keep getting deleted? -- Sholom 18:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
While nobody answered the above question, I will provide more references. Here her father is listed as one of the top 50 more important Floridians of the century. In that article you can read how his father was a US Senator, that he ran for the governorship, that he controlled nearly 300K acres of citrus, he chaired a blue-ribbon commission (appointed by the person who defeated him for governor), he donated $20 million to U. Fla., the stadium is named after him, and an auditorium at its Citrus Research and Education Center in Lake Alfred; and he was ranked as one of the richest men in America. ( Here I see a public school is named after him.) Umm, wouldn't you say that the combination of all this is "wealthy" and "influential" ? Particularly when two news sources also mentioned that (i.e., showing that this is not original research). What in the heck is POV about that? What bias is that? I can't even tell which direction the bias is supposed to be. The Kennedys are rich and influential. So are the Bushes and Rockefellers. What's the bias? I don't get it! -- Sholom 20:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
If a reliable source calls her family "influential", we can also call them that. But it must be cited. If her parents were wealthy and you can cite it, then do it. These edits were made by another and I agree with them. Either cite these characterizations or leave them out. Merecat 00:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Uh oh, election year on Wikipedia. Shit's going down. -- kizzle 03:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
"Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families. Her late grandfather, Ben Hill Griffin, was a citrus baron and state legislator, and one of the state's largest landowners." [21].
Now Dave Thomas has removed the word "wealthy" as POV. Ben Hill Griffin was on the Forbes 400 list of the richest people in America. If he was not wealthy, then the word has no meaning. Seriously, why are you people wasting everyone's time with this nonsense? Gamaliel 04:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this:
"Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families. Her late grandfather, Ben Hill Griffin, was a citrus baron and state legislator, and one of the state's largest landowners." [22].
I support Gamaliel's desire to see this reinserted, with the exception that I prefer it read:
Harris was born in Key West, Florida. Her grandfather was Ben Hill Griffin, Jr., a wealthy businessman in the cattle and citrus industries who served in the state house and senate. The Ben Hill Griffin Stadium at the University of Florida is named for him. [23]
Let's discuss this. Merecat 05:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Not all attempts at accuracy pass the POV smell test. I sense there is an attempt underfoot here to paint Harris as an elitist. I am therefore, suspicious about too much family detail. It has no bearing on her merit as a candidate and it's her political career which makes her notable. Look at the John Kerry article. The Forbes family were drug smugglers. However that's not Kerry's fault so we avoid saying it that way. Look at Ted Kennedy. His father was a rum runner and a likely mafia associate of Sam Giancana. That's not Ted's fault. Harris's grandfather may have been wealthy, but "baron" is often a pejorative when applied to wealth. Surely you must know that? Merecat 06:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Coming here from the RfC... I don't have a problem with "Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families." and the rest. Yes, "most influential" is slightly subjective, but assuming its true, its OK to include. The rest is fine too, except that I would not user the term "baron". Although use in this way has a long history, it's just a tad informal (he's not an actual Peer) and has just a bit too much negativity associated with it. How about "citrus grower"? The opening sentence and "...state's largest landowners" makes it pretty clear that we're not talking about some shlub with a little grove, here. Herostratus 06:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
CBS called him a baron, not this article. Plenty of glowing biographies of Griffin describe him as a baron and mean it in a complementary way. But that's beside the point. Nobody wants to call him a baron, we'd just like to mention the fact that he was wealthy and influential, and that was what you and Dave have objected to. Gamaliel 06:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps Harris's grandfather was influential. But to say she was "born into a wealthy and influential family" is not precise. Who in the family was wealthy? When? And who says? And properly speaking unless her parents were "influential", her family is not - not fully anyway. If grand-dad was "influential" and we can cite that, then the sentence must be re-written to make sure that it's grand-dad being referred to, not some imprecise, vague "family".
Harris was born in Key West, Florida. Her grandfather was Ben Hill Griffin, Jr., an influential, wealthy businessman in the cattle and citrus industries who served in the state house and senate. The Ben Hill Griffin Stadium at the University of Florida is named for him. [25]
How this? Merecat 17:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gamaliel, you are joshing right? CBS is not NPOV and suggesting it is grows tiresome. Was it not CBS that foisted the Killian documents spoof on the viewing audience? So what if CBS says it? Are you saying we should quote every news source verbatim on everything and even with that, we will achieve NPOV? If you demand CBS, I'm going to have to insist that you quote it something like this:
According to CBS, "Harris is a member of one of Florida's wealthiest and most influential families." citation needed Her grandfather was Ben Hill Griffin, Jr., a businessman in the cattle and citrus industries who served in the state house and senate. The Ben Hill Griffin Stadium at the University of Florida is named for him. [26]
Personally, I feel that CBS is becoming a poor source at a rapid pace, but I'm willing to be flexible here, are you? Merecat 17:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gamaliel, it's not "absurd" and please don't say that. Frankly, CBS has recently begun to tatter around the edges in regards to objectivity and accuracy. If you deny that, you are denying the truth. Even so, I didn't say to not use CBS. Rather (no pun intended), I said regarding this particular point, if we use CBS, let's use a verbatim quote. Merecat 21:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gamaliel, you are leaping to harsh conclusions. I want that in quotes to point out that's the verbatim language. I do not want any paraphrasing on this because this line of description is only being editited in here so as to label Harris as an elitist anyway. Personally, I feel we are overplaying this aspect. But since it are including this, combined with the fact that CBS has less credibility lately, it makes sense to do a verbatim quote. Merecat 23:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I took a big knife to the lede (hopefully not too big a knife) with the intent to address Thewolfstar's NPOV tagging as well as my own preference for short & sweet ledes. My intent was to remove only stuff repeated or (IMO, of course) more appropriately placed later in the article. If I toasted original stuff it was inadvertant, please go ahead and slip it back in. -- Flawiki 23:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. Most people in the country don't even know her name. She's most famous in FL for having served as Sec State and Congress, not merely for her 2000 role. Without accurate NPOV polling proof of Gamaliel's assertion, I would oppose. Merecat 23:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I repeat: Most people in the country don't even know her name. The notion that she is "famous" for 2000 exists primarily in the thinking of political junkies. Merecat 00:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
"Name recognition remained a problem for her, though..." -- March 29, 2006 Mason-Dixon Poll. [27] Merecat 05:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The Dems are jealous? Merecat 05:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeb and the Pubbies do support Harris. They have not backed off from this. Merecat 05:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
More details to aid research. Merecat 05:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to talk about the makeup issue, let's at least be fair to Harris and print her actual recent reply when questioned about that.
Here's the original source:
- Harris: "I haven't worn blue eye shadow since 7th grade and some of those photographs had me in blue eye shadow.
- Fountain: "But you don't really think the newspapers doctored your photos?
- Harris: "I just question why there was blue eye shadow. But it doesn't matter. Why are we talking about this? Kathy, that's so silly. Because people care about the issues. If the media wants to talk about appearances that's different, but I'm not going to talk about it. That's demeaning to women...They don't talk about men's balding or their weight, or their diminutive size."
Hmmm.... Maybe Harris knows something about Nelson she's not telling? Merecat 05:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
And this: "The late-night chatterers, many of whom either (predictably) voted for Gore, or (thankfully) did not vote at all, ridiculed the attractive Harris’s choice of clothes and make-up. Print reporters, generally not a very stylish crowd themselves, followed suit." Found here. Merecat 05:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This section is gossipy trash, and has no place in the article. Aside from its obviously dubious notability, most of it violates WP:V by citing bloggers as its prime source. The Daily Show, also is not an appropriate source for this particular sections as it is a satirical program. I have therefore removed the entire section. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It's no big deal. Others have already said they were going to do it (see above) but just never did. So now, it's done. Move along, nothing to see here. Merecat 15:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Harris has been the subject of jokes regarding her makeup, attire and photographs. On The Tonight Show, Jay Leno said that "they had trucks in Florida bringing the ballots to Tallahassee... It's the same trucks they used to bring the makeup to Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris." [28] During the 2000-2001 season of Saturday Night Live, comedian Ana Gasteyer did an impression of Harris. [29]
In January 2005, Harris told the
Associated Press that "the jokes about my appearance–it's the computer-enhanced photos...It was like in a comic strip. They actually had blue eye shadow on front pages of newspapers and I haven't had blue eye shadow since Girl Scouts in seventh grade." On August 1, 2005, Harris was a guest on
Sean Hannity's
talk radio program on
ABC Radio. Hannity asked Harris whether the jokes bothered her, and Harris told him that "I'm actually very sensitive about those things, and it's personally painful...You know, whenever they made fun of my makeup, it was because the newspapers colorized my photograph." On August 2, 2005, Harris and her staff were asked to point to a colorized photograph. According to spokesman Adam Goodman, Harris said that "I haven't worn blue eye shadow since the seventh grade when I was in the Girl Scouts". William March of the Tampa Tribune wrote "She didn't name a newspaper that showed blue eye shadow." When asked why Harris would accuse newspapers of altering her photograph, Goodman said "I think what she's saying is the number of photographs that were run that were unflattering was large, and that was unfair because the only reason this was made a caricature built around cosmetics was because she was a woman,"
[30].
Some critics have derided Harris for apparently trying to highlight her feminine attributes in campaign appearances. In particular, some panned an appearance on Hannity & Colmes in which Harris stood in profile for the entire interview (being shown from the waist up) as an attempt to feature her breasts as prominently as possible. Video of the appearance was posted on Crooks and Liars, and bloggers such as Ana Marie Cox have provided additional photographs of Harris, with criticism. [31] [32]
The
Daily Show recently satirized Harris regarding her bosom. On the show,
Jason Jones cited the
Hannity & Colmes interview and referred to her attire at a rodeo campaign stop as "tit-hugging spandex", along with other sexually themed comments about Harris.
[33]. Harris supporters have rejoined that similar remarks about a Democratic candidate's sexual appearance would have provoked a media firestorm of allegations of "gender insensitivity" and "anti-woman" bias.
Political columnist and blogger
Michelle Malkin recently rebuked Harris's sexuality critics, charging them with "liberal sexism."
[34] However, some conservatives have also criticized Harris for her choice of tight clothing in campaign appearances.
[35]
This material
keeps finding itself wiped, restored, wiped, restored but moved, wiped again, and as of now, restored and moved back once more. It should remain (subject to further improvement) because it's sourced, it's verifiable, it's relevant, and it's notable (else why would the subject, mired in a difficult campaign, have attended?). A sage fellow editor indicated the most recent removal was because the subject headline implied that it was potentially scandalous. I understand that concern and don't necessarily disagree with it, however the material is still relevant/verifiable/notable etc. In an attempt to move on I've put it back in a temporal context where I had it a week or ago with the hope that in doing so the criticism is satisfactorily addressed. -- Flawiki 11:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Please explain to me, why is the mission of the group notable enough to mention in this article? Uh, perhaps because certain editors here consider speaking to Christians to be scandalous? If not, why was this talk section given a "gate" name ("reclaimamericagate") ala watergate, plamegate, etc? The simple fact is that Harrris has not only a right, but a duty to seek the votes of all citizens. If seeking the votes of this particular group of Christians requires that she "headline" their meeting with a talk, then so be it. No one would dare make hay about anyone speaking at NAACP or ADL. To suggest that 'Reclaim America' is so notorious that their "mission" must be hung around the neck of anyone invited to "headline" is very offensive to me. Merecat 15:26, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is the "mission" of that group being mentioned here germane to this article? Make an article for the group and mention it there. If people want to read more, they can read it there. This is nothing more than well-poisoning attempt. It's an attempt to make Harris seem vile for speaking to those who want to proselytize and convert others to their faith. It's absurd to suggest that Christians are vile enough that a goal of Godly government ought to be hung on the neck of anyone who talks to them. It's guilt by association. Where the proof that Harris herself wants to "reclaim America for Christ"? If and when she says that and we source it, then that can go in the article, but not this suggestive innuendo! For these reasons, the 2nd sentence of "The stated mission of the group is to 'come together to reclaim this land for Christ" has been deleted by me as being irrelevant and POV in regards to Harris herself. Merecat 15:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
ThuranX, I urge you to desist from making personal allegations about me. I find it offensive. Also, this speaking engagement was clearly nothing more than a campaign stop. If you want to assert that Harris is pesronally affiliated with this group and/or on a personal level, seeks to "reclaim America for Christ", then you must find reliable citations which substantiate that. As it stands, there is proof only that she spoke there as a candidate, but no proof that Harris is in league with these nefarious Christians and their zealous attempts to overthrow the Constitution in favor of the Bible. When you find a reliable source supporting your thesis regading this we can go with it, not until. The 2nd sentence should stay out. Merecat 16:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
If accurately cited to Harris, reporting her statements is fine. Merecat 16:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
No censorship has taken place, please stop saying things like that. You asserted your edits, I asserted mine and we met in the middle. It's called consensus. Also, the "sentence" you refer to was inaccurate and POV when I deleted it. Now that it's accurate, it's not POV. Frankly, I think you did a great job of helping the Harris message get out by triggering these new edits. Was that your intent? Merecat 17:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
ALright, I've had it. The sentence goes back in, as ORIGINALLY CITED, with accurate content. ThuranX 17:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
God haters RULE! ... on wikedpedia! 98.198.48.17 ( talk) 21:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I've {{protect}}ed after trying to represent both sides in that paragraph, in hope that the cooling off period thus invoked will stave off a bunch of 3RRs and let us try to resolve this on the talk page.
Here is the material as it stood pre-protection:
Absent a ReclaimAmerica article I think the above could be expanded either to include mentioning its directory Gary Cass who seems to be notable on his own, or perhaps this article itself could use a religion in government policy position note as the subject's own speech topic at the conference was Bringing Faith to the Public Forum-- Flawiki 17:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I object to the title of this section as being anti-Christian bigotry. Accordingly, I have striken one word. Merecat 17:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
More insults from ThuranX, thanks guy. Also, I too like the edit as it stands now. But, I don't know what a "religion in government policy position note" is and I think that might open a new can of worms. Also "Bringing Faith to the Public Forum" does not equate to "religion in government policy", at least no how I see it. Merecat 18:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)