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I felt that the section on Muktananda was a mischaracterization of his school, and removed the material. There is a complete article on Siddha Yoga that defines it more fully.
TheRingess 10:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section. It used way too much passive voice and cited no references. To me it read like an essay. With no scholarly references it seems to be original research. Perhaps someone could rewrite it to make subsections for each religion/path that kashmir shaivism is compared to, and provide scholarly references for readers wishing more information. TheRingess 01:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section also. It contained a lot of information already present in the previous section. Also, without scholarly references, statements like "strictly speaking, kashmir shaivism is the oldest...." seem to me to be original research TheRingess 01:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
It's my thought that links to specific schools belong on their article pages. TheRingess 02:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I reverted this material, for several reasons.
Its just my opinion, that the section about current teachers, can remain brief and readers can read further about teachers they have an interest in.
TheRingess 01:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
some theories we should add: paravak (theory of speech), matrikacakra (theory of the alphabet), pratibimbavada (theory of reflection), the thirty six tattvas, prana/cit kundalini, pramatrin, turya, ... Saiva suj 21:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There should be an article on mind-birth, for lack of a better term. As Shri Durvasa Rishi had borne Tryambaka out of his mind, I'm fairly certain Zeus of Greek mythology had done the same for Athena. Does anyone have any clues? ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 21:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I have been looking at the complex of articles Shiva, Rudra, Shaivism, History of Shaivism, Six Schools of Shaivism, Shaiva Siddhanta, etc., and see quite a bit of forking and overlap. It would be great if as many editors as possible could watchlist all of these articles and help out with an effort to figure out what should go where. Sharing effort across multiple articles may help with sourcing for all of them. Buddhipriya 22:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Would there be any object to converting the article over to use the standard sections for Notes and References as given in Wikipedia:Guide to layout? In that setup, books that come up in actual footnotes appear in the list of References. Currently the article is basically sourced from one one text on the subject, and it may be good to expand the range of sources used. Buddhipriya 04:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have reduced this section to a list of schools and scholars. It's my opinion that many of the statements made in the section as previously written were very non neutral. I think it is beyond the scope of this article to try to classify individuals contributions to Kashmir Shaivism. Also, I think any material about the scholars or teachers belongs on their articles, with a brief, neutral summary here. TheRingess 01:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Gabriel Pradiipaka is a genuine master belonging to the Triká tradition. He is a disciple of Swami Muktananda in fact. And he is a contemporary "alive" teacher. Hence I added him to the list of teachers. There is no link-spam as the user Buddhipriya insists on stating. If Buddhipriya has something personal against Gabriel Pradiipaka, he should push that aside and behave objectively. I am calling for other moderators in order to show the reason why Gabriel Pradiipaka cannot be considered a genuine contemporary Kashmir Shaivism teacher, because Buddhipriya insist on removing his name without giving any valid point 200.82.62.166 23:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC).
Dear friend, tell me where is "in my last posts" the link in my adding Gabriel Pradiipaka as "disciple of Swami Muktananda" and that's it (no link to anywhere)? Of course, people will see that name, google it and find the site. This is out of Wikipedia's control, no doubt. Besides, who are you to say that he is a non-notable practitioner? Do you know him personally? Just behold his website and think to yourself, "Who the hell am I to deny him to enter as a Kashmir Shaivism teacher?". Are you a renowned Trika scholar maybe? Now, listen up because this is serious: I am calling for other moderators because you seem not to have the necessary objectiveness and scholarship to work as one in this important section. This is a formal reclamation to Wikipedia for a change in the moderator. If the notable teachers are to be "only" from India (your country, btw, Buddhipriya), so put the title "Notable Indian teachers" and that's it. Your behavior just show a tendency to promote your own country, Buddhipriya, and there is certain ridiculous conceit in your statements regarding a teacher you don't know an iota!!! Thus, I want the opinions of other moderators who are not from India. Show valid points and I won't keep on adding the name of Gabriel Pradiipaka as a notable Kashmir Shaivism teacher. Besides, he is "alive, up and running", while the other teachers are "generally" dead 200.82.66.194 04:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Buddhipriya 05:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that the Notable proponents section should be deleted entirely because it is a spam magnet, and issues of notability are not clear. If someone is important, they should be mentioned in the article text in a cited manner and not just put into a link farm for promotional purposes. I have removed all of the redlink gurus and have tagged some of the blatant spam articles into AfD. We are basically down to just Joo, whose prolific efforts have been the main source for this unreliable article, and the work of Nityanada and Muktananda, whose vague connections with Kashmir Shaivism have recently been the subject of discussion on Siddha Yoga. I think both of them meet notability tests but I do not think they are particularly notable with regard to Kashmir Shaivism, as their chief claims to fame seem to rest upon other accomplishments. I propose removing the section entirely. How do other editors feel about this strategy? Buddhipriya 17:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
We need to organize this article better, put more information in and an outline of the main philosophical points of Kashmiri Shaivism. I am starting to work on this article slowly. Please review. Visarga 02:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I concur with the above notion regarding improvements; there are some major aspects of the philosophy of Kaśmir Śaivism that are absent from the current article. This point was also made some time ago. In particular, the article lists the history and origins as it should, but the treatment of the actual philosophy and practice is diminished in comparison. This should instead form the central focus of an article on the subject while the other might better be placed in an article describing 'The History and Origins of Kaśmir Śaivism'. Recent effort to include The 36 tattvas is a significant step forward, but I do not agree that it should be confined to the See Also section. Several major features still remain absent, including but not limited to:
Another aspect of the Kaśmir Śaivism article which is absent concerns the living tradition. The original sages lived and taught from their immediate and direct experience of consciousness. In other words, they did not simply expound the philosophy as an abstract idea (though I am not seeking to diminish the importance of academic translations to westerners like myself). Their students were engaged and compelled to learn from these teachers in a real and practical sense. A living transmission from teacher to disciple is central element in other eastern modes of spirituality. So it is with Kaśmir Śaivism. A recently created living person's bio article on Swami Shankarananda Saraswati is directly concerned with this living tradition. The article has been though two seperate wikipedia review processes and has emerged as being accepted for meeting the requirements of notablility and verifiability set out in WP:BLP. In one of Swami Shankarananda Saraswati's recent books Consciousness is Everything - The Yoga of Kashmir Shaivism he provides an significant original perspective on the subject and brings this ancient eastern philosophy to light in a number of practical ways. This serves to make Kaśmir Śaivism both accesible and relevant for western spiritual practitioners. So to my point. The english Wikipedia article on Kaśmir Śaivism should not just list the history and origins or cite the body of teachings, the article should also include coverage of the relevance and practice of the philosophy of Kaśmir Śaivism in the west. I am looking to extend the current article along these lines, and I am seeking input from existing contributors on how this might be most agreeably acheived. Yogidude 15:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm currently doing research on dozens of Kashmir Shaivism books in order to identify and compile a list of fundamental concepts like:
Visarga 23:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I am building up a list of references that are to become useful in writing Kashmiri Shaivism articles - initially for personal use but it might be used by anyone who researches for articles or for personal curiosity. I have even more books on the subject and I will be adding more references.
User:Visarga/Research_References The reference list in itself can become a good starting point for more in depth studies. Most of the fundamental subjects are touched, some more than once.
Visarga
21:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I made a number of minor edits and added references where requested, thus I removed the Unreliable tags.
Please add more tags where you feel they are needed. The whole article is incomplete and needs serious expanding but as to the accuracy of information, I think it is OK so far.
Also I started a new section about important concepts in Kashmir Shaivism. The user needs to know what it is all about, not just a few historic references. This section is where I envision the expansion of the article. Visarga 08:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned that some of the recent additions, e.g., [8], are going overboard in the amount of metaphysical detail. This sort of detail, which is being sourced mainly from one book, seems out of place for an encyclopedia article. I think the material should be removed, and more emphasis should be given to high-level third-party sources discussing the general issues of this tradition, not these details. The general label "Kashmir Shaivism" in fact covers a family of different traditions, and we should not be giving WP:UNDUE weight to any one source from the collection. Buddhipriya 08:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I went on and updated some sections (Kaula, Spanda and Abhinavagupta) which lacked proper citations and in some cases were undeveloped.
The Abhinavagupta section is now leading to a full blown article on Abhinavagupta I completed a few days ago. Please have a look and add your critique and ideas to the mix :-)
Step by step we are getting closer to a proper Kashmir Shaivism article. We still need to include the "Shiva Sutras" section with the "Classification of the written tradition" because they are both on the same subject. Also, the "Anuttara" section needs to become a separate article.
As the Kashmir Shaivism articles are growing in number, we will need to have a side panel like they have on Hinduism. At the moment we can count:
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I felt that the section on Muktananda was a mischaracterization of his school, and removed the material. There is a complete article on Siddha Yoga that defines it more fully.
TheRingess 10:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section. It used way too much passive voice and cited no references. To me it read like an essay. With no scholarly references it seems to be original research. Perhaps someone could rewrite it to make subsections for each religion/path that kashmir shaivism is compared to, and provide scholarly references for readers wishing more information. TheRingess 01:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section also. It contained a lot of information already present in the previous section. Also, without scholarly references, statements like "strictly speaking, kashmir shaivism is the oldest...." seem to me to be original research TheRingess 01:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
It's my thought that links to specific schools belong on their article pages. TheRingess 02:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I reverted this material, for several reasons.
Its just my opinion, that the section about current teachers, can remain brief and readers can read further about teachers they have an interest in.
TheRingess 01:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
some theories we should add: paravak (theory of speech), matrikacakra (theory of the alphabet), pratibimbavada (theory of reflection), the thirty six tattvas, prana/cit kundalini, pramatrin, turya, ... Saiva suj 21:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There should be an article on mind-birth, for lack of a better term. As Shri Durvasa Rishi had borne Tryambaka out of his mind, I'm fairly certain Zeus of Greek mythology had done the same for Athena. Does anyone have any clues? ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 21:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I have been looking at the complex of articles Shiva, Rudra, Shaivism, History of Shaivism, Six Schools of Shaivism, Shaiva Siddhanta, etc., and see quite a bit of forking and overlap. It would be great if as many editors as possible could watchlist all of these articles and help out with an effort to figure out what should go where. Sharing effort across multiple articles may help with sourcing for all of them. Buddhipriya 22:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Would there be any object to converting the article over to use the standard sections for Notes and References as given in Wikipedia:Guide to layout? In that setup, books that come up in actual footnotes appear in the list of References. Currently the article is basically sourced from one one text on the subject, and it may be good to expand the range of sources used. Buddhipriya 04:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have reduced this section to a list of schools and scholars. It's my opinion that many of the statements made in the section as previously written were very non neutral. I think it is beyond the scope of this article to try to classify individuals contributions to Kashmir Shaivism. Also, I think any material about the scholars or teachers belongs on their articles, with a brief, neutral summary here. TheRingess 01:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Gabriel Pradiipaka is a genuine master belonging to the Triká tradition. He is a disciple of Swami Muktananda in fact. And he is a contemporary "alive" teacher. Hence I added him to the list of teachers. There is no link-spam as the user Buddhipriya insists on stating. If Buddhipriya has something personal against Gabriel Pradiipaka, he should push that aside and behave objectively. I am calling for other moderators in order to show the reason why Gabriel Pradiipaka cannot be considered a genuine contemporary Kashmir Shaivism teacher, because Buddhipriya insist on removing his name without giving any valid point 200.82.62.166 23:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC).
Dear friend, tell me where is "in my last posts" the link in my adding Gabriel Pradiipaka as "disciple of Swami Muktananda" and that's it (no link to anywhere)? Of course, people will see that name, google it and find the site. This is out of Wikipedia's control, no doubt. Besides, who are you to say that he is a non-notable practitioner? Do you know him personally? Just behold his website and think to yourself, "Who the hell am I to deny him to enter as a Kashmir Shaivism teacher?". Are you a renowned Trika scholar maybe? Now, listen up because this is serious: I am calling for other moderators because you seem not to have the necessary objectiveness and scholarship to work as one in this important section. This is a formal reclamation to Wikipedia for a change in the moderator. If the notable teachers are to be "only" from India (your country, btw, Buddhipriya), so put the title "Notable Indian teachers" and that's it. Your behavior just show a tendency to promote your own country, Buddhipriya, and there is certain ridiculous conceit in your statements regarding a teacher you don't know an iota!!! Thus, I want the opinions of other moderators who are not from India. Show valid points and I won't keep on adding the name of Gabriel Pradiipaka as a notable Kashmir Shaivism teacher. Besides, he is "alive, up and running", while the other teachers are "generally" dead 200.82.66.194 04:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Buddhipriya 05:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that the Notable proponents section should be deleted entirely because it is a spam magnet, and issues of notability are not clear. If someone is important, they should be mentioned in the article text in a cited manner and not just put into a link farm for promotional purposes. I have removed all of the redlink gurus and have tagged some of the blatant spam articles into AfD. We are basically down to just Joo, whose prolific efforts have been the main source for this unreliable article, and the work of Nityanada and Muktananda, whose vague connections with Kashmir Shaivism have recently been the subject of discussion on Siddha Yoga. I think both of them meet notability tests but I do not think they are particularly notable with regard to Kashmir Shaivism, as their chief claims to fame seem to rest upon other accomplishments. I propose removing the section entirely. How do other editors feel about this strategy? Buddhipriya 17:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
We need to organize this article better, put more information in and an outline of the main philosophical points of Kashmiri Shaivism. I am starting to work on this article slowly. Please review. Visarga 02:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I concur with the above notion regarding improvements; there are some major aspects of the philosophy of Kaśmir Śaivism that are absent from the current article. This point was also made some time ago. In particular, the article lists the history and origins as it should, but the treatment of the actual philosophy and practice is diminished in comparison. This should instead form the central focus of an article on the subject while the other might better be placed in an article describing 'The History and Origins of Kaśmir Śaivism'. Recent effort to include The 36 tattvas is a significant step forward, but I do not agree that it should be confined to the See Also section. Several major features still remain absent, including but not limited to:
Another aspect of the Kaśmir Śaivism article which is absent concerns the living tradition. The original sages lived and taught from their immediate and direct experience of consciousness. In other words, they did not simply expound the philosophy as an abstract idea (though I am not seeking to diminish the importance of academic translations to westerners like myself). Their students were engaged and compelled to learn from these teachers in a real and practical sense. A living transmission from teacher to disciple is central element in other eastern modes of spirituality. So it is with Kaśmir Śaivism. A recently created living person's bio article on Swami Shankarananda Saraswati is directly concerned with this living tradition. The article has been though two seperate wikipedia review processes and has emerged as being accepted for meeting the requirements of notablility and verifiability set out in WP:BLP. In one of Swami Shankarananda Saraswati's recent books Consciousness is Everything - The Yoga of Kashmir Shaivism he provides an significant original perspective on the subject and brings this ancient eastern philosophy to light in a number of practical ways. This serves to make Kaśmir Śaivism both accesible and relevant for western spiritual practitioners. So to my point. The english Wikipedia article on Kaśmir Śaivism should not just list the history and origins or cite the body of teachings, the article should also include coverage of the relevance and practice of the philosophy of Kaśmir Śaivism in the west. I am looking to extend the current article along these lines, and I am seeking input from existing contributors on how this might be most agreeably acheived. Yogidude 15:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm currently doing research on dozens of Kashmir Shaivism books in order to identify and compile a list of fundamental concepts like:
Visarga 23:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I am building up a list of references that are to become useful in writing Kashmiri Shaivism articles - initially for personal use but it might be used by anyone who researches for articles or for personal curiosity. I have even more books on the subject and I will be adding more references.
User:Visarga/Research_References The reference list in itself can become a good starting point for more in depth studies. Most of the fundamental subjects are touched, some more than once.
Visarga
21:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I made a number of minor edits and added references where requested, thus I removed the Unreliable tags.
Please add more tags where you feel they are needed. The whole article is incomplete and needs serious expanding but as to the accuracy of information, I think it is OK so far.
Also I started a new section about important concepts in Kashmir Shaivism. The user needs to know what it is all about, not just a few historic references. This section is where I envision the expansion of the article. Visarga 08:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned that some of the recent additions, e.g., [8], are going overboard in the amount of metaphysical detail. This sort of detail, which is being sourced mainly from one book, seems out of place for an encyclopedia article. I think the material should be removed, and more emphasis should be given to high-level third-party sources discussing the general issues of this tradition, not these details. The general label "Kashmir Shaivism" in fact covers a family of different traditions, and we should not be giving WP:UNDUE weight to any one source from the collection. Buddhipriya 08:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I went on and updated some sections (Kaula, Spanda and Abhinavagupta) which lacked proper citations and in some cases were undeveloped.
The Abhinavagupta section is now leading to a full blown article on Abhinavagupta I completed a few days ago. Please have a look and add your critique and ideas to the mix :-)
Step by step we are getting closer to a proper Kashmir Shaivism article. We still need to include the "Shiva Sutras" section with the "Classification of the written tradition" because they are both on the same subject. Also, the "Anuttara" section needs to become a separate article.
As the Kashmir Shaivism articles are growing in number, we will need to have a side panel like they have on Hinduism. At the moment we can count: