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The last changes were: "Thaye Dorje's side claims, that it was established for the purpose of administring Rumtek Monastery in the absence of a Karmapa reincarnation. This actually fits with the statute of the trust, which consists of several secondary members and one central figure. The main member, the Karmapa, is the actual head of the trust. In case of the death of the main trustee, the others take over with its management by means of majority vote.
The trust has been victorious before the court in all preliminary stages without exception.
Urgyen Trinley's supporters claim that since 1981 Rumtek monastery has been primarily managed by Gyaltsap Rinpoche, who has periodically resided there. Gyaltsap Rinpoche has excused himself as a proper party from the court case and is thus not contesting in that regard any longer."
Is this reasonable and correct? I just reverted it to give the possibility to discuss it. If it is correct and neutral please add it again or correct it. Kt66 15:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know H.E. Beru Khentse Rinpoche is speaking on a balanced view on it and he never took any site of the two Karmapa candidates. So why is is mentioned as supporter of Venerable Thaye Dorje? Does anybody know more? Should we changes this? Thank you. Kt66 23:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Billion. Because you added the view as stated by Chokyie Nyima Rinpoche, I added that Mingyur Dorje Rinpoche (his brother) is also the son of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche. But we can delete my addition if it confueses the article, beacuse it is mentioned in his wiki article too. Kt66 10:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The article reports Ven. Thrangu saying that he personally knows that K16 wrote two prediction letters. Then the article states as fact that many people had read at least on the letters and that 50 copies were made of it. Then it says that the document that was inside Tai Situ's amulet is yet a third letter. Is this correct and for real? As far as I know, there are only two prediction documents that were ever claimed to exist, and one of those was later admitted by all parties to have been a fake. Neither of the two books I read about this subject mentioned anything about two other letters. What gives? - Nat Krause( Talk!) 18:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I have been checking out the Ole Nydahl page and there's info there which I think is more relevant on the Karmpa Controversy page. They are regarding his views on the Dalai Lama in the controversy and another editor in turn put in a reply to Nydahl's views and these are more relevant here rather than on Nydahl's bio page. What do you all think?-- Rico yogi 22:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The following was added to recognition section by an anon editor. I felt it should be merged in to the section on "claims by his supporters" or merged carefully with the current "Recognition of the Karmapa" section carefully balencing any different views from the two sides with sources. I do not agree that the section as it stands is POV, but this should be debated before such an edit. Billlion 17:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
View of Thaye Dorje's Supporters: They denote a central role in the process of recognition to the Sharmapas and base themselves upon an expertise of Prof. Geoffrey Samuel stützen (S16ff: http://www.karmapa.org.nz/articles/2005/geoffreysamuel.pdf). Here, the whereabouts of the traditional process of reincarnation are shown. Prof. Samuel sources for the research are Douglas and White, the Black Hat Lama of Tibet, 1976: 31-110, dealing with the text "zla wa chu shel gyi phreng ba" and oral explanations of the 16th Karmapa ). This presentation clearly contradicts the one presented above. Since the 14. century, the recognition of the Karmapa reincarnation seems to have been mainly under the authority of the Shamar Tulkus. In that way the 5. (2.Shamar), 6. (3.Shamar), 10. (Shamar 6) and 11. (Shamar 7) Karmapa-reincarnations where solely recognized by Shamar Tulkus. The 9.Karmapa was recognized by both, the 5.Shamar Tulku and the 4.Situ Tulku together and the 12. by a group that was asked to do so by the 8.Shamar Tulku. An exception is only the 8. Karmapa, who was recognized by the 3.Situ Tulku. The 7. Karmapa (recognized by the 1.Gyaltsab Tulku ) and the 13.Karmapa (by the 7.Gyaltsab Tulku ) are no real exceptions to undermine the authority of the Shamar Tulkus, because because the Shamar Tulkus of that time died almost around the same time than the respective Karmapa Tulkus and where hence unavailable. This situation changed only 1790 as the Lhasa Regime forbid the reincarnations of the Shamar Tulkus. From that time on, the Tulkus were recognized by various masters: 14. (by the 9.Situpa), the 15. (by the 9.Drukchen Rinpoche) and the 16. Karmapa (by the 11. Situ and the 2 Jamgon Kongtrul).
I think the earlier version of the text appears to be flawed. Geoffrey Samuel seems to be a neutral source (even though his research was presented as favourable evidence by Trinley Thaye Dorje's supporters in a court case, his tone and conclusions seem quite balanced and scholarly) and, in any event, he is simply summarising information found in a book written before the controversy began. Factually, the earlier version seems similar, but it appears to systematically downplay the role of the Shamarpa. Here are the discrepancies between the earlier version of this article and Samuel's research:
Samuel's research does seem to show that, between the birth of the second Shamarpa in 1339 and the banning of the lineage by the Lhasa government in the 1790s, only the 8th Karmapa was recognised by someone else when there was an adult Shamarpa available. In the time during the ban (during which there were only three Karmapas recognised), the Shamarpa no longer played this role, and Tai Situ was involved in two of three instances.
Without regard to any issues of how they are to be interpreted or explained, the facts seem more reliably described by the newer text (which sites a source, unlike the older version). We should work to combine the two versions, preserving the facts presented in the newer one.
I should also note, as an object of side research, that, going by the dates on Tai Situ, from the time of the birth of the second Tai Situ in 1450, the Tai Situ was always a minor at the time of the Karmapa's recognition, until the 13th in 1732. Somehow, this did not stop him from participating in two recognitions before that, including the single-handed recognition of the 8th Karmapa by the 3rd Tai Situ when the latter was only nine years old! Some of these dates might not be entirely reliable.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 21:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
28th of March of 2007 - 1:00 am GMT.
Facts: I think this article it is not neutral, and clearly shows preference to one of the Karmapa's candidats. It also doesn't mention that there was a third one of latin origin, among 2 or 3 more. Tai Situ Rinpoche was forbiden to enter India because he already was involved with the chinese government in the "accidental" and mysterious death of many lamas and Rinpoches who did not accept the Orgyen candidature to Karmapa, and Orgyen himself could not leave his monastery.
Now for history facts: it is not the first time that such thing happens in the Karma Kagyu Lineage, though it was not as long as this thread.
Tulkus facts: Reincarnations are not linear, as many westerner people might think, and sometimes there are many reincarnations of a relevant teacher or emanation, though they are not complete, and they must be together to work. And by destroying one another makes the picture that none had understood anything about the Buddha's Teachings, nor even the basic Abidhamma.
The reason why a Master or Emanation wants to divide him or herself nobody is sure of, but the original Master or Emanation, but it may be because he or she needs to develop his or her Mind, Heart and Mouth in a more specific way, and he or she may need two, three or more people to do all the job his or her has to do.
There are also cases when a master decides to transfer his or her consciousness instead of acquiring a new body, because he or she is in a hurry to do a particular task that keeps him or her tied to a quick return until he or she finishes the work he or she came back for.
In this case, and for the benefit of the Kagyu Lineage and the benefit of the union among Tibetan Buddhists traditions, I think both candidats are one, and should work together, and if this does not happen, it means that the Kagyu Lineage is not worth to continue in activity, because it shows how poor are the true buddhist Teachings. And I don't know who are other lineages to sign a certificate of being the H.H. the Karmapa reincarnation.
About myself, I was of bhutanese origin, and I do belong to the Drugkpa Lineage. And I trully feel very sad and dissapointed, because as Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche said, the Karma Kagyu is going to be divided in two, and an elephant will destroy it. And I am sure Karma Kagyu Lineage will be destroyed if both reincarnations cannot work together in brotherhood.
If both reincarnations agreed to share the title and burocracy soothes it and make it flexible to accept both tulkus, Karma Kagyu's activity will be fortunate and Tibetan Buddhism will stay a long time in the West, if not, Tibetan Buddhism of the Karma Kagyu will die, and all Lineages will blame it.
This article claims that Orgyen Thrinley is supported by the majority, but this support is based on the respect that every lama and Rinpoches of all Lineages have for H.H. the Dalai Lama and the gelugpas, which were the one's who recognized him as a Karmapa, violating all rules of all lineages. I do respect him as well, but this is not honest.
I guess you all are commiting a big mistake, with very bad consequences to buddhism in general, which will build a lot of bad karma to all involved, which shows the big ignorance on true buddhist teachings.
For outsiders, the list of endorsements of the different candidates by various luminaries is one of the more important parts of this article. However, I was vaguely dismayed to discover that more than one of the endorsers listed are not adults and therefore not really in a position to make an informed endorsement. For instance, we are listing, among the supporters of Urgyen Trinley Dorje: the 4th Jamgon Kongtrul, the 3rd Kalu, and the 11th Pawo, who are currently 12(?) years old, 15 years old, and 12 years old, respectively. The article doesn't say when they gave their endorsement; it may have been when they were considerably younger. In each case, their predecessors died before having an opportunity to accept or reject either candidate. We should try to figure out which of the putative endorsers are actually in a position to give their informed assent, and remove those who aren't from the list. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 21:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
That's a good point. One can't help but wonder whether we will have doubles of everyone from now on, or what. Alternate Karma Kagyu universes entirely. Sylvain1972 16:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I have just done a fairly extensive edit on this article. Since this is obviously a fairly contentious topic, I wanted to mention here that I have no personal connection to the topic at all (in fact, no prior knowledge of it whatsoever), so please be assured that my extensive edits performed today were solely for the purpose of correcting typos, grammar and punctuation, and for standardizing the way in which footnotes and references are indicated. I hope those of you working on this article find it to be improved. Maralia 18:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
How should this article treat one Dawa Sangpo Dorjee, the Sherpa claimant to the position of 17th Karmapa? Generally, I think he should be discussed minimally (his existence is confirmed by a few Indian newspaper reports and a letter appearing on the Shamarpa's http://www.karmapa-issue.org website). He is certainly a Karmapa claimaint, but he is not a very important part of the Karmapa controversy. Moreover, while it may very well be true, from a religious perspective, that Dawa Sangpo Dorjee is the true 17th Karmapa (we know for a fact that either the Shamarpa or the Tai Situ is wrong about the Karmapa's identity—perhaps they both are), but, from a secular perspective, there is basically nothing we can just a hierarch by except for his acceptance by other accepted leaders in his denomination. Dawa Sangpo Dorjee, at the current time, has none of this.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 23:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes to this page, providing an update to the Rumtek court case information and correcting the paragraph on the history of the recognition of the Karmapas. It was reverted back to its original form by someone who said my changes were biased.
I'm aware this is a touchy subject and I did not intend to offend anyone.
I'd like to know what the person who reverted the page thought was biased about the changes.
Thanks. Rebecca
Okay, let's take the paragraph on who recognized the Karmapas first. The list I used is from Buddha's Not Smiling by E. Curren. Mr. Curren is, admittedly, a student of Shamar Rinpoche. Of this information in his book he says, "This information is taken from a chart submitted in 2004 by Geoffrey Samuel, professor of anthropology at the University of Newcastle in Australia . . " as part of an affidavit in a case before the High Court of New Zealand. Curren quotes Samuel, "For the first thirteen Karmapas, their [referring to Nik Douglas and Meryl White's book Karmapa: The Black Hat Lama of Tibet, Samuel's primary source] account is based on the Zla ba chu Shel gyi phreng ba ('Moon Water Crystal Rosary') by the 8th Situ . . . supplemented by two earlier sources. For the 14th and 16th Karmapas, it is based on the spoken commentary of the 16th Karmapa. Both sources should be acceptable to all parties in the present dispute."
What source is the original from?
As to the Rumtek court case, are you disputing that the Indian Supreme Court declined to overturn the earlier courts' decisions or that the final decision is pending? I don't have access to court records, but can point to this Asia Times article from 2004 http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FG21Ad06.html .
What do you think?
Rebecca
Since I haven't had a response, I'm thinking you may want the specifics of the changes I made.
I added "Trinley" to Thaye Dorje's name and updated "As of early 2006, they have not met".
I changed the three middle paragraphs on the recognition of the Karmapas as follows:
"Karmapas are self-recognizing. That means that many incarnations (seven out of sixteen) claim very early in life to be Karmapa, recognize associates and colleagues of the previous incarnation, and have been generally remarkable for their age (see history of previous incarnations). Also, each Karmapa has left indications leading to his next re-birth, often in the form of a letter. In such letters, indications regarding the location and parentage of the next incarnation were included, though usually in a poetic form that is difficult to decipher.
However, the closest associates of the previous incarnation play a crucial role in the process of recognizing the next Karmapa. After all, it is they - adult and fully realized Buddhist masters - who have been closely associated with the previous incarnation and will have to raise and teach the new one.
The process of recognition has involved different lamas since the first recognition in the early 13th century. Of the past Karmapas, Shamar Rinpoche has recognized the 5th, 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th. Situ Rinpoche has recognized the 8th, 9th (with Shamar Rinpoche), 14th and 16th (with Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche) Karmapas. Gyaltsap Rinpoche has recognized the 7th and 13th Karmapas. The other incarnations were recognized by other Kagyupa lamas."
I just checked it and found this list: Khenpo Tcheudrak summarizes the history of the various recognitions of Karmapa in the following way:
Furthermore, among the previous Karmapas:
According to this source you can see just three are recognized by Shamarpa Rinpoche directly. Kt66
There is obviously some disagreement in the sources, but I can assure you that I have not made anything up to "push" Sharmapa. I just had a look at Karmapa, the Black Hat Lama of Tibet. In the Appendix about the Sharmapas they are credited with all of the recognitions I have listed. The book cites original Tibetan sources for this information. What do we do? Rebecca 00:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I updated the paragraphs under "Recent Developments" as follows:
"Control of Rumtek monastery, the seat of the 16th Karmapa in exile, is hotly contested between its rival claimants. In 1961 the 16th Karmapa established the Karmapa Charitable Trust under a provision of Indian law that allows reincarnate lamas to safeguard their assets in the period between their death and their reincarnation's coming of age.
Urgyen Trinley's followers claim that the trust was solely established for the sake of seeing to the welfare of the Karmapa's followers, to provide funds for the maintenance of the monastery, for the monks medical fees, and so forth. Thaye Dorje's supporters claim that Tai Situpa attempted an end run around the other members of the Trust and when he was unable to accomplish this, he and Gyaltsab Rinpoche took over Rumtek by force in 1993. The dispute over Rumtek has been working its way through the Indian court system every since.
In July of 2004 the Indian Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal of a group created by Gyaltsab Rinpoche and let stand an earlier decision of the Sikkim District Court and a subsequent confirmation by the High Court in New Delhi which determined that Gyaltsab's group had no legal claim to Rumtek and that the Karmapa Charitable Trust is legally entitled to manage Rumtek.
The final legal decision is still pending as of early 2006."
Comments? Rebecca
Thanks, Billion! I have a user name, but maybe I didn't sign in when I made the changes. I will from now on.
The statement about Rumtek is prefaced with "Thaye Dorje's supporters claim . . .". The only sources I have are, of course, from people who support Thaye Dorje. There's the detailed report in Buddha's Not Smiling. There's the eyewitness account by two of the 16th Karmapa's monks who were present at the takeover, which is published in the report of the International Karma Kagyu Conference in New Delhi in March of 1996. There are a number of newspaper articles that repeat the story. None of these will convince folks firmly on the other side of the divide. That's why I prefaced the statement as I did. There is no doubt that Thaye Dorje's supporters claim that Rumtek was taken over by force after other, more covert, attempts failed.
Now lets try that four tilde thing and see if it works. Rebecca 21:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not relying only on one source, although I am relying largely on sources which support Thaye Dorje. The single exception is the series of articles by Julian Gearing published in the Asia Times. Mr. Gearing has no connection to either camp and appears to have researched his articles most thoroughly. The source you cite supports Urgyen Trinley. That's fine, but I don't see that it proves anything. Since neither of us appears to have access to the court records or to an Indian lawyer, we must rely on the sources available to us. What's to be done? Rebecca 22:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
In the article you refer to, Julian Gearing writes, "Some older Karma Kagyu followers still suspect the Dalai Lama of using black magic to kill the 16th Karmapa, who died of cancer. Such extreme views, however, are not held by the majority of Tibetans." He identifies the idea as extreme and rare, so I don't think it's fair to suggest that he's trying to stir up trouble or that he is less than objective on the Karmapa issue. He does not say that he agrees with this idea, only that some people still hold it.
In the late 1970's the XVI Karmapa came to our Santa Cruz KTC for two days. I was the president of the cente at the time. The room he stayed in was usually occupied by a friend and roommate that was a Gelugpa student. (We didn't have enough Kagyu students to fill the house.) She had a picture of the Dalai Lama in her room that the 'Vajra Guards' (Trungpa's people) insisted be removed, saying that the Dalai Lama was trying to kill the Karmapa. I spoke to H.H. about the issue of the picture personally, and he said, "His Holiness and I are on very good terms." That is direct from the horse's mouth to a first person witness--me. My name is John Keefer 76.172.93.217 01:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to hear from other editors, as Kt66 suggests. Anybody have any thoughts? Rebecca 15:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Gearing is making the point that the relations between the 16th Karmapa and the Dalai Lama or at least the Dalai Lama's government-in-exile were not always cordial and that this has left some people with these extreme opinions. He's a journalist. He's reporting the opinion, not because he thinks the opinion is true, but to illustrate how some people feel about the situation.
I'm not sure that it's useful to get into a wrangle about this one sentence in the article. The ultimate point, as I see it, is that Julian Gearing is a journalist who has been covering Asia for twenty-some years and that he does not have a prior connection with either faction in the Karmapa issue. His statement regarding the Rumtek case before the Supreme Court of India (which is where we started on this) is at least as much to be trusted as the statement of the so-called "Tsurphu Labrang," which is, not surprisingly, partisan. If you don't like Gearing, then we should still be able to change this part of the article to include the claim of Thaye Dorje's supporters regarding the court cases cited.
As for the other issue of who recognized which Karmapa when, I think we may have to rewrite that part of the article to reflect the fact that different sources give us different answers. I'll work on that over the next few days and post it here. Rebecca 23:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it's going to be very difficult for us to get really neutral information on this subject no matter what we do. I've recently finished reading two books about it: Tomek Lehnert's book and The Dance of 17 Lives by Mick Brown. Neither strikes me as very fair and balanced. Lehnert gives the impression that he is not even trying to be neutral. Brown, on the other hand, tries, but he comes across as a Spiritual Tourist (the title of one of his earlier books) who was wowed by the Dalai Lama and the Urgyen Chiley Dorje people from the outset. Together, they provide a little bit of balance, but it remains quite difficult to determine what is factually true and what isn't. This is in part because both sides have engaged in their fair share of mendacity, sometimes cooperatively. For instance—althhough it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Wikipedia article yet—there is the matter of the putative "original prediction letter" from the 16th Karmapa: this was supposedly found in the mid-1980s and was enshrined in a box, where it was the object of many prostrations and a lot of veneration while the four regents (Shamarpa, Tai Situpa, Jamgon Kongtrul, and Gyaltsab Rinpoche) supposedly waited to make the contents public. The Tai Situpa later revealed that the whole thing was a lie: there had never been a prediction letter in the box at all. Mick Brown says that all four regents were in on the deception, whereas Lehnert doesn't say whether or not the Shamarpa was (you would expect he would tell you if Shamarpa wasn't). Once all of the principals have had their credibility impeached, it's hard to know what's really going on.
Looking at the revisions under discussion now, they look like a mixed bag. Some of them were just minor updates, which are a good thing and appreciated.
Kt66's version of the "self-recognizing" passage is clearly better. " Karmapas are self-recognizing. That means that many incarnations (seven out of sixteen) claim very early in life to be Karmapa" doesn't make much sense, since the first sentence implies that it should be all of them, not 7 of 16. However we phrase it, this passage is problematic and I don't know what to do about it, because there are no unbiased historical sources that I am aware of that verify the self-recognition of earlier Karmapas. It's a bit like an article on the Catholic Pope saying, "Popes are chosen by the College of Cardinals in strict submission to the will of God."
The paragraph beginning, "The process of recognition has involved many different lamas ..." contains two different issues. There's a factual claim about which Karmapas were recognised by which lamas; I can't really comment on that (we might wind up having to say, "Source X says ABC, but Source Y says DEF.") There's also a wording issue: "many" seems like a bit of an overstatement to me. The rest of the wording of the current version seems a bit confusing and should be cleaned up.
The statement that the Karmapa Trust was established "under a provision of Indian law that allows reincarnate lamas to safeguard their assets in the period between their death and their reincarnation's coming of age" needs to be factually verified. It is also potentially misleading if the Karmapa's motive for founding it was not, in fact, to safeguard his assets, or if this motive is disputed. As for, "Thaye Dorje's supporters claim that Tai Situpa attempted an end run around the other members of the Trust", I think everyone agrees that this is true, although calling it an "end-run" might be prejudicial. Whether he and Gyaltsab then proceeded to seize Rumtek by force is certainly something that the Shamarpa's side makes a great deal of; I'm not sure what the other side says about it. "In July of 2004 the Indian Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal of a group created by Gyaltsab Rinpoche and let stand an earlier decision of the Sikkim District Court and a subsequent confirmation by the High Court in New Delhi which determined that Gyaltsab's group had no legal claim to Rumtek and that the Karmapa Charitable Trust is legally entitled to manage Rumtek," is, as far as I know, completely true and it seems like an important fact to mention.
We might also want to include something about how—as far as I can tell—the Karmapa Charitable Trust is about to become irrelevant. Its bylaws state that the Karmapa becomes the sole trustee on his 21st birthday. Well, Thaye Dorje is already 21 and Urgyen Chiley Dorje will be later this year. Once that happens, one would imagine the control over KTC will become disputed just as the identity of Karmapa is disputed. That is, KTC will no longer be a separate third power. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 23:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Recently, a number of names were added to the list of people who recognise one candidate or another as the current Karmapa. This is getting to be problematic, because no sources are provided for any of these names. I can't think of a fair way to exclude some but leave others in, so, for now, I have removed everyone listed as agreeing to the recognition. These names can and should be re-added with proper citations: Here is the removed text:
"[Regarding Ogyen Trinley Dorje:] Other prominent Kagyu lamas who accept the recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje include the Ninth Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, the Ninth Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche (a former Abbot of Rumtek Monastery), the Seventh Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche and his Nalandabodhi organization, the Seventh Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche (the youngest son of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche), the Third Tenga Rinpoche, the Venerable Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, the Venerable Bokar Rinpoche, the Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche, the Venerable Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche (abbot of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra), H.E. Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche and his organization, Shambhala International, the Venerable Drupon Rinpoche, the Venerable Akong Rinpoche and his Samye Ling Monastery and Lama Norlha Rinpoche, among others. Ogyen Trinley is also recognized by several reincarnate high lamas who are currently minors, including the Fourth Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, the Eleventh Pawo Rinpoche, the Third Kalu Rinpoche, and the Twelfth Surmang Trungpa Rinpoche. All of these younger lamas were in turn recognized by Ogyen Trinley himself, or by Karma Kagyu lamas aligned with him."
"[Regarding Trinley Tayê Dorje:] Other lamas who accept his recognition are The 4th Jamgon Kongtrul Karma Migyur Drakpa Senge Trinley Kunkhyab Palzangpo, the Venerable Jigme Rinpoche (brother to Shamar Rinpoche and nephew to the 16th. Karmapa), the Very Venerable Shangpa Rinpoche, the Very Venerable Lopon Tsechu Rinpoche (who passed away in 2003), His Eminence Chogye Trichen Rinpoche, His Eminence Trungram Gyaltrul Rinpoche, H.E Lopon Tenzin Jigme Rinpoche, Ven. Nedo Kulha Rinpoche, Khenpo Chodrak Rinpoche (a former Abbot of Rumtek Monastery and nephew to the 16th. Karmapa), H.E. Chog Gyur Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche, Ngendo Rinpoche ( Dorje Lopon of the Kagyu lineage), Khenchen Tashi Paljor Rinpoche, Maniwa Sherab Gyaltsen Rinpoche, Sabchu Rinpoche, Lama Gendün Rinpoche (the meditation master and the spiritual leader of the four Dhagpos), Sangsang Rinpoche, Trinle Tulku, H.E. Karma Chagme Rinpoche, Tulku Lodrö Rabpel, Drupseng Rinpoche, Lama Tönsang, and Trehor Lama Thubten, Ven. Tshurphu Lopon Rinpoche, Ven. Minawa Jampa Gyamtso Rinpoche, Ven. Tshurphu Khentrul Rinpoche, Ven. Tulku Tsheyang Rinpoche, Ven. Lowo Tulku Rinpoche and Ven. Tulku Tenzin Rinpoche. Lama Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way organization are prominent supporters of Thaye Dorje in the West."— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 02:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Changchub ( talk) 03:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks like an attempt to move the page manually. If anyone wants to propos renaming the page this is the place to do it. Not a deletion debate after a badly executed attempt to change the name! Billlion ( talk) 16:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Agree. Hopefully this nomination will be speedily closed. Andrewa ( talk) 06:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
That there's two 17th Karmapas is something that's gone beyond initial controversy to what has now been an abiding outcome for 15 years and longer. It's become a settled fact of life in which a generation has grown up having personal recall of nothing otherwise. HH the 16th Karmapa died 27 years ago. Best practice is then to rename this " 17th Karmapa recognitions". This is in just the same way that over time we have been able to accept the Partition of India as no longer a 'controversy' and rather a settled and abiding outcome that has proved its stability over a lengthy period such as to have achieved an aspect of permanence. Sacerdote ( talk) 03:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I am sympathetic to renaming, although I think it is still a controversy, and I think people may well google for that. However the title 17th Karmapa recognitions does not sound right for an article title. To be adequately descriptive the title would have to be longer so that it is clear what it is about. How about "Controversy over the recognition of the 17th Karamaps" or "Dispute over recognition of the 17th Karmapa" Billlion ( talk) 22:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
"This matter has two aspects : the first being the practice of Buddhism, which is not brought into question by any of the centres whatsoever; the second concerning the recognition of a reincarnation, where each person has the freedom of their individual choice. Consequently it is the duty of the [French Association of Tibetan Buddhists] to accommodate all the centres and practitioners of Buddhism."
As this has been listed at WP:RM I've added the normal header and discussion areas to this page. Andrewa ( talk) 07:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
There are currently several related fields of activity regarding this article, currently called Karmapa controversy.
On 20 March, a fork of this article was created at 17th Karmapa recognitions with the edit summary The Karmapa lineage is the most ancient tulku lineage in Tibetan Buddhism, pre-dating the Dalai Lama lineage by more than...
Also on 20 March, a deletion request was opened by the user who had created the fork, for Karmapa controversy, with the reason Duplication. WP:POVFORK from 17th Karmapa recognitions. This nomination seems likely to fail.
On 22 March, with the AfD still open, a move request was opened, again by the same user, requesting this article be moved to 17th Karmapa recognitions. The request was incomplete, the article was listed at WP:RM but no discussion space created; I completed the request to allow discussion, see the Requested move section above. This nomination also seems likely to fail.
Currently, this same user is engaged in extensive editing to the article, including a minor edit war over the tone and contents of the article. The aim of this editing appears to be to water down the controversial aspects of the issue, to justify renaming it to... wait for it... 17th Karmapa recognitions.
It seems ironical to me that the self-appointed defender of such holy men should decide to try our patience so severely. But perhaps, our patience should not be limitless? Andrewa ( talk) 20:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, yes, and I see they have also reported you for allegedly breaking the 3RR... on the evidence presented there, you didn't actually break it as I'm sure you're aware, as the fourth edit was more than 24 hours after the first.
Perhaps it would be wise to raise unhelpful edits here after the first revert. I adhere loosely to a 1RR myself, but even with that restriction I can be some help. Andrewa ( talk) 05:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Here are some example of article called ¨controversies¨ Easter controversy, Investiture Controversy, Whitewater controversy, Global warming controversy, Japanese succession controversy, Vestments controversy. Many of them are historical and so are not controversial now. 88.104.7.89 ( talk) 19:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
My apologies to all who are involved in trying to legitimately present this issue to the public. In an attempt to protect this page from further manipulation by Sacerdote I requested that it be fully protected, however, I underestimated the speed and determination with which said User was trying to force their opinion upon the presentation of this article. Consequently, it is now fully protected in the form which Sacerdote has been trying to impose upon the page for the next 2 days. I sincerely apologize to all those seeking to reflect an accurate and NPOV on this issue for having underestimated the determination of the individual involved in this edit war.-- Changchub ( talk) 09:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
User:Sacerdote has been blocked indefinitely and the page protection reduced to semi-protection, so you should be able to edit the page without too much trouble. But please bear the above comments in mind! Andrewa ( talk) 11:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that the English translation of the prediction letter included in this article differs rather substantially from the original translation released. Does this bear mentioning here somewhere? And if so, how?-- Changchub ( talk) 02:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
And also the suppression of the lead image presenting both 17th Karmapas. I can't fathom it from any edit summary or talkpage comment supplied. Sacerdote ( talk) 05:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Please, both tell me about this. What's the image, and why should or shouldn't it be used? Andrewa ( talk) 05:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The copyright clearance of Image:CoKarmapas.JPG looks extremely dubious to me. It appears to have been assembled from two other images from Wikimedia Commons. However, one of these images is licensed under CC-A, and the attribution requirement of this licence has not been met by the creator of the new image; The other appears to have been deleted, so its copyright status is unknown. Probably the image should be deleted from Wikimedia Commons on these grounds.
The title of the image also begs the question; The image description expands it as co-claimants. The question of whether they are rivals for the title or whether (as some claim) they can both have legitimate similtaneous claims was one of the key issues in the controversy, and seems still open.
Finally, it's potentially misleading. It could be taken to be a picture of a meeting between them, which of course it is not. If both these images are to be included, there's no good reason for them to be combined in this way, rather they should be included as separate images.
So all in all, an image to avoid. Andrewa ( talk) 15:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I just had a look at http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/karmapa/kar00.php which is the page headed 17th Karmapa on the Karma Triyana Dharmachackra monastery website. It describes one of the candidates and doesn't even mention that there's another... surprise, surprise. Andrewa ( talk) 02:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody have any information about the outcome(s) of it? The Indian Supreme Court (in 2004) said that any remaining questions about Rumtek Monastery go back to the District Judge there to be sorted out between the Charitable Trust in charge of it and the Government of Sikkim. So what was decided and what was sorted out? I know one thing that happened was that an official of the Reserve Bank of India was appointed to conduct the inventory of property at the monastery. Did that happen in an orderly fashion? Was a result that they confirmed the location of the black Karmapa crown that seems to have gone missing since 1981. Oestrik ( talk) 11:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
17th Karmapa doesn't exist. Shouldn't this exist as a redirect to this page? 70.51.8.110 ( talk) 10:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm a little disgusted to see the most recent attempted whitewash, which seems to want to deny that anything was ever controversial. Oestrik, you know as well as I do that we could have a hundred cites to back up the fact that this whole affair has been controversial. And Billion, that is a perfectly legitimate quote that you deleted, cleared cited and sourced. Sylvain1972 15:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
No personal attacks please, even on banned users and alleged socks. If this really is a sock, just put in a checkuser and get it blocked. Andrewa ( talk) 02:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
[RFC request by banned user removed] Khoi khoi 21:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
ConcurredInWriting ( talk) 12:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Next time DavidYork or one of his sockpuppets makes a comment here, let's not respond to it. See WP:NOFEEDING. BTW, this talk page should probably be archived. Khoi khoi 21:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. JPG-GR ( talk) 20:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Karmapa controversy → 17th Karmapa recognitions — Completing incomplete move proposal — Andrewa ( talk) 07:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
From WP:RM:
The article is descriptive of the circumstances of dual concurrent recognitions of 17th Karmapas, not of those circumstance being termed 'controversy' in the minds of some who commentate on them. Sacerdote ( talk) 04:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Note also
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Karmapa controversy.
All told, it's a bit of a mess.
Andrewa (
talk)
08:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
From the survey above: A greater part of material I see exploring this subject matter refers to a 'Karmapa matter' or 'Karmapa issue', not a 'Karmapa controversy'. For example when French Buddhists raised an administration concern with the Dalai Lama in Sept 2000 they used the terminology 'Karmapa matter'. This surely is the sort of diplomat-speak reserved for the most delicate negotiations. We should not adopt it. Call a spade a spade and a controversy a controversy. Andrewa ( talk) 12:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I added: "The head of the Sakya school, H.H. Sakya Trizin and the present head of of the Nyingma school, H.H. Mindoling Trichen Rinpoche also recognised Urgyen Trinley Dorje as the present 17th Karmapa." this information was given me in the past, but I doubt if there is a reference for this. Does anybody know? Otherwise I feel I should remove this, if there is no valid source. Who knows something or has a source for this claim? Thank you, Kt66 15:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Although I am aware that it does not prove anything about the official stance of H.H. Sakya Trizin. I do have a photograph of Urgyen Trinley Dorje and Sakya Trizin speaking together. Something that might be taken to indicate at least some form of approval. Zenshaft 17:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I have just found the quote of that addition: "Karmapa Urgyen Trinley Dorje" by Ken Holmes, ISBN: 3-89568-027-3, page 56. So I will re-add it. -- Kt66 10:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Didn't anyone consult oracles, or perform a mo? I can't imagine that His Holiness signed off on Urgyen Trinle without at least performing a simple mo with tsampa balls, which is generally quite accurate (at least, in His Holiness hands anyway). It just seems crazy that no one would go to an oracle to check, but then, I don't know which one one would go to. I don't suppose it would be Nechung, at any rate. Anyone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.9.184.181 ( talk) 15:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The introduction states: The lineage is an important one as the Karmapa is traditionally the head of the Karma Kagyu school, one of the four main schools of Tibetan Buddhism. IMHO, " Kagyu" is one of the four main schools, not "Karma Kagyu", which is a sub-school of Kagyu, see Tibetan Buddhism#Schools and the introduction of Karmapa. So I think that sentence should be changed. BNutzer ( talk) 01:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
In External Links > Statements, interviews, documentaries, background material
please add under
the following
The link http://www.karmapa-issue.org/arguments/indian_supreme_court.htm is referenced under point 16 'Indian Supreme Court decision on Rumtek' but in fact this is a selfpublished information of an heavily involved party ( WP:SPS) and the article is no WP:RS, hence, either please remove this reference or make it neutral NPOV like "Indian Supreme Court decision on Rumtek according to supporters of Thaye Dorje". I think, the reader is mislead by claiming 'Indian Supreme Court decision on Rumtek' and linking to a WP:SPS without any approval of a WP:RS. Thanks, -- 79.4.150.9 ( talk) 13:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move per request.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 12:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Karmapa Controversy → Karmapa controversy — Usually I would just do a move like this but this article was once named Karmapa controversy and it was changed to Karmapa Controversy, so I wonder whether changing it back might be controversial. I don't believe it is a proper name so Controversy should not be capitalised, per WP:LOWERCASE. Nurg ( talk) 08:23, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Īf the Urgen Thinley Dorjee is the real Karmapa Then who is the Kaling Tulku? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.248.124.149 ( talk) 12:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
This text is removed: "In 2003, Luding Kechen Rinpoche (a Sakya lama) decided to pass the transmission of large number of Kagyu tantras to Thaye Dorje instead of the Orgyen Trinley Dorje.[24]". Reasons: In the reference it is not stated that this Sakya lama transmited the linage to Thaye Dorje instead of Orgyen Trinley Dorje. Thaye Dorje just asked for this transmission and received it (according to the cited ref). Moreover, each lama, especially young rinpoches, including also Orgyen Trinley Dorje receive every year many high teachings and transmissions. So what's the point to post here this particular one? Volovsky ( talk) 21:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
User:VictoriaGrayson tagged the article with Original Research. Could you please comment on which parts of the article you have in mind? As for Primary sources I don't see how this can be avoided. There are very few neutral sources of secondary analysis, most people knowledgeable and publishing on the subject take a firm view on one side or other of the conflict. Thanks Billlion ( talk) 06:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
The additions to the page made on March 30 2015 were un-sourced opinions about the ability of enlightened beings to contain their mindstreams. I removed as they don't follow wikipedia's NPOV guidelines. These were anonymous changes but please in future avoid placing personal opinions on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mekinna1 ( talk • contribs) 17:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
While the article mentions Beru Khyentse as a supporter of Thaye Dorje, his position seems to be a lot more layered than that. Surely it would be fair to post a link to his letter on the subject, in which he states that he has attempted to act as a peacemaker between the two sides.
Trawling round the web, it appears that there's an entire Oz-NZ subplot generated by the hostility towards Beru Khyentse over his assumed support for Thaye Dorje. It seems to involve a battle over a Karma Kagyu centre in New Zealand, possibly (I'm surmising here) the collapse of a KK centre in Sydney, (Karma Donag Choling) and problems with Beru Khyentse's land in southern NSW.
I realise it's not neccessarily the role of Wikipedia to itemise every facet of the Karma Kagyu's internecine battles. However, this site appears to be the only repository of objective, or at least, bi-partisan accounts on the Karmapa bunfight. As the contributors appear to be well-informed, would it be possible for some of you to shed some light (NPOV, of course) on these machinations involving Beru Khyentse, his supporters, adversaries and the whole Antipodean circus? Perhaps it could be given a separate heading. All I've gleaned is from the Web, here's a link to a BK site which explains the state of play and the above letter: http://www.rigpedorje.com/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=10
thankyou
Angela
buddhagirl49@yahoo.com
203.214.21.195
07:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't remember the source (somewhere on the internet), but I believe that Beru Khyentse's position is that he accepts both candidates. When Thaye Dorje came to Bodhgaya (I think) Behru Khyentse invited him to stay at his monastery. This offended the Orgyen Thinley camp so that they shunned B.K.R. B.K.R. insists that Orgyen Thinley is also welcome at his monastery but the offer has so far not been accepted.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.172.93.217 ( talk) 01:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
when Beru Khyentse came to France in 2003(?) he visited Dhagpo Kagyü Ling. A disciple of him and Ogyen Trinle told me, that the campp of Ogyen Trinle put a lot of pressure against him, as he visited Dhagpo... They wouldn't invite him anymore. Sad story . The link doesn't work. here's another with Beru's letter from 2003: https://karmapaissue.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/beru-khyentse-letter-2003.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeshe108 ( talk • contribs) 00:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I will remove the interpretation of A Song on the website. Reason: Not even the followers of Ogyen Trinle - as Thrangu Rp on the official website of Ogyen Trinle, doubts that the vajra song predicts the 16th Karmapa's flight, not the 17th's: Footnote annotations by Ven. Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche [4] Here the Karmapa is clearly predicting the future flight of the Tibetans to India. see: http://kagyuoffice.org/traditional-materials-on-recognition-of-the-17th-karmapa/a-song/
another follower of Ogyen Trinle, lama Puntsok:
"The metaphor in The Song, “the vulture soars into the expanse of the sky,” points to the fact that Situ Pema Wangchuk would die soon. His Holiness furthermore prophesied that he and his people - all monks, nuns, and lay practitioners – would be robbed of their freedom in Tibet, would have to leave their homeland and flee the only possible way, which would be to East India and Sikkim. The prophecy came true. Tibet was robbed of its independence in 1959 and His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, His Holiness the Karmapa, and many, many Tibetan Lamas were forced to flee from their own country. They were generously offered asylum in India as well as in the adjoining Himalayan Kingdoms."
About the creative way kagyuoffice deals with prophecies: https://karmapaissue.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/a-closer-look-at-the-creative-way-kagyuoffice-interprets-prophecies/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeshe108 ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
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Вопрос был решен между Кармапами в 2017 году. Так же они достигли консенсуса и в отношении поиска перерождения 15го Шамарпы — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.191.153.155 ( talk) 11:20, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Hellow my wiki friends. I added a reference to the Karmapa's first meeting, and added the topic of their 2020 meeting, "to move beyond politics and work together to recognize the next Shamarpa" Badabara ( talk) 19:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
I have not read all the references, but have tried to edit the brief reviews given to be NPOV and indicate which claimant each book supports, or is associated. Please check if you know the books better, but please do not make POV comments based on your own opinion of the controversy. Billlion 18:30, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I think, that the references should be categorized to "Thaye Dorje side", "Urgyen Trinley Dorje side" and "Neutral" references. Raphael Wegmann, 17.6.2005
Hi Billion, whoever you are. When I have made changes, than to come to the historical facts. NPOV does not mean in this case, that we are discussion the question of having a pope and a anti-pope. In our case there is a truth, and this is known. This should be the result of NPOV! Fernando
There is more than one Jigme Rinpoche, although it seems that the easiest one to find through Google (born in 1949 IIRC) is the one meant in the current version of the article. Even so, some effort to disambig it further is welcome. Luis Dantas 01:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Hi Luis, it is indeed, as referred to in the article in the same sentence, the brother of Shamar Rinpoche, so there should not be more questions. Fernando Schlottmann 31 October 2005
User:Pasdecomplot changed first paragraph from: "The recognition of the Seventeenth Karmapa, the head of the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, has been the subject of controversy."
To: "The recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the Seventeenth Karmapa, the head of the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, has been accepted by Tibetan buddhists and the Karma Kagyu school."
This latest change by User:Pasdecomplot contradicts what a reader would logically conclude from reading this page, which is that this controversy is very much an open topic--not a closed one. Badabara ( talk) 04:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Gosh, I guess the subject of Tibetan buddhism, the process of recognition, the bigger issue of religious freedom, and the RS supporting these issues is not understood Thehittite and Badabara. In the first lines, the article fails to introduce the overall subject, the correct sequence of events, and fails to present an understanding of the process of recognition. I attempted to correct these errors. FYI, Within wiki pages, there are two similar and serious historical conflicts that have been somehow classified as "controversy", a word which implies equal weight should given to both sides, as in a disagreement, a simple spat, a she said-he said. A conflict is a more appropriate term for both the Karmapa and Panchen Lama titles, since what RS evidences is Tibetan Buddhism is actually being assaulted through the promotion of people not recognized through the historical and authentic processes. The changes I made further addressed these errors. Not disruptive, except to the incorrect reporting of historical events. Comfy Retiree I also found OR in the Karmapa conflict which then supported an incorrect summation of events. Shall I list these for you all, so we can make the necessary changes? Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 21:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Please respond Badabara and Comfy Retiree and The hittite to these comments by me and by Let's Talk. Again, you all as a group are supporting an incorrect summation of events, OR, which creates a misleading article. Where did your group come from and why is the correct sequence of events considered as disruptive? Hum? Pasdecomplot ( talk) 08:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Objective descriptions are not difficult when RS is located, examined, and the subject is understood. It appears the non-NPOV approaching OR in the intro, and in the follow sections, is asking for forgiveness: "It is difficult to produce an objective description of the events because the most important developments are known only from conflicting accounts by those involved." Huh? "Important developments" are covered in reliable sources=RS; "are known" is an odd phrase for reading/analyzing info in RS; "conflicting accounts by those involved" doesn't sound like RS. There are many brilliant sources truly specializing in Tibetan buddhism and the Kagyu school, but Geoffrey Samuels' (working out of the questionable Cardifff U in UK's Wales) quotation is the sole source cited. The entire paragraph asking for forgiveness should be deleted. I think it was, then incorrectly reverted. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the joint statement is a very important development Badabara. It would be appropriate to include its mention in the intro. I'll include it in the earlier topic. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 11:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Cardiff U, ranked in the top 400-500 universities in the world, where faculty have committed suicide and the admin is charged with curtailing freedom of speech... Badabara Geoffrey Samuels is an expert in exactly which field? Is the quotation acceptable RS? Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:17, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
There is an incorrect summation of the events in the intro, and in other sections, together which create non-NPOV approaching OR. The 'controversy' began AFTER Orgen Trinley Dorje was located, recognized, and enthroned. The article states two contenders have been put forward "since" the passing of the 16th Karmapa. This is incorrect. Two years after OTD's enthronement is when the 'controversy' began. This is an important distinction in the article, a RS-supported fact. It needs to be re-added; facts are not disruptive; blocking the inclusion of facts into an encyclopedic article is, obviously, disruptive. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 16:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Example 1:"Since the death of the sixteenth Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje, in 1981, two candidates have been put forward:"... This is incorrect & needs to be changed. The reverted edit was good; another draft option is, "After the death...., Orgyen Trinley Dorje was located, recognized by Tai Situ and the Dalai Lama, then in [19__] enthroned in Tibet. Two years later, Trinley Thaye Dorje was recognized and enthroned in India by [Shamar Rinpoche]." This is correct, and an appropriate intro to the article. The details can be provided in the following sections Badabara.
Ogyen Trinley Dorje (also spelled Urgyen Trinley Dorje, born 1985) and Trinley Thaye Dorje (born 1983)."
Both have already been enthroned as 17th Karmapa, and both independently have been performing ceremonial duties in the role of a Karmapa" Pasdecomplot ( talk) 16:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Example 2: The lumping together of both effectively reinterprets the 'controversy', which approaches OR Badabara. The enthronment of OTD occurred at the Karmapa's traditional monastery in Tibet, authorized by many spiritual leaders and attended by the Karmapa's sangha. TTD was enthroned in India, 2 years later, not in Tibet (Karmapa's seat) nor in Sikkim (16th Karmapa's seat after escaping from the Chinese). Likewise, OTD's ceremonial duties were/are performed at the seat until his escape from the Chinese in 2000; his seat in exile is/was near Dharamshala, (where his movements were again restricted). TTD's ceremonial duties are not performed at either seat, but at another monastery. These facts together make lumping nonsensical, contrary to RS, an uninformed simplification of complex issues, and non-NPOV bordering on OR. Thus, the entire lumping section should be deleted. It was deleted, then incorrectly reverted. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
SHARMAPA : the key points in RS appear to be : he was 1 of 4 regents in the search = customary; I read he secretly searched (no RS) for TTD in 1988, but didn't bring him forward as the Karmapa (normally, a recognized tulku is quickly enthroned - and nothing happened with TTD, if the 1988 search happened. why not openly search? why not recognize - unless there's a problem?); he refused to meet with regents in MAR1992 to review prediction letter (strange); in APR he left his post (not normal) after Jamyong Kongtrul died in mysterious accident (RS says Indian govt didn't investigate); in JUN he brings armed Indian army into monastery (totally unheard of) after OTD was confirmed; he wrote 2 letters rescinding his demand for forensics on prediction letter (letter located OTD); he splits with regents and sangha to later enthrone TTD without prediction documents (why not build consensus? the kongtrul lineage has different tulkus that embody different qualities of their reincarnation, but even this wasn't arrived at by consensus); I can't find specific dates/info/RS on TTD escape and enthronement; and, he mentions his fear of Indian government for not meeting OTD in Delhi. So, IMO, maybe his fear is what unhinged him. He was also the 1st Sharmapa to be recognized after a ban - but, Sharmapa pattern of creating dissent reappears with the Karmapa. I learned these points just within the last few days. RUMTEK & TSURPHU : Yes, Tsurphu is the main seat. In Rumtek monastery, story is it had already been a seat but was destroyed. 16th Karmapa rebuilt it as a seat in exile = two effective seats, I analysed. We definitely can change the words, but it's good to introduce both monasteries briefly but accurately in intro since the enthronement and present legal battles revolve around these seats and lineage holdings. NEUTRALITY So, I haven't read the re-edits, and the facts behind the RS reflect that the controversy openly began in 1994 - after a 2nd Karmapa was enthroned. Just a fact, not siding one way or the other. If a 2nd Karmapa had not been enthroned, there would be no controversy. That would be the NPOV. FOLLOWERS or issue of majority=OTD and minority=TTD seems to be an undisputed fact. If need be, we can break out these POINTS into different topics. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 14:09, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
I would considering moving the Recognition of the Karmapa under Background to the main Karmapa page because how each of Karmapas have been recognized over 900 years is not limited to the very recent controversy regarding the recognition of the current 17th Karmapa. A brief summary, perhaps specifically focusing on the controversial recognitions, would be more fitting. There is already plenty of detail (i.e. too much info) on this page, so anything to make it more concise is worth considering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk • contribs) 23:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to remove the "Circumstances leading to candidacy" section. It's an inaccurate title, and a brief background on both candidates doesn't add any valuable or additional context to the controversy, which is the subject of this page. There's already too much detail, and it's better just to dive right into the subject at hand. Both candidates already have detailed bios on their own page that readers can easily find. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 18:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm looking at splitting out the "Split recognition of the current Karmapa" section to first focus on the historical aspect of the spiritual "recognition" that occurred in the early 1990s that flows with the story (for the reader) followed later a section of who accepted this spiritual recognition and who accepts each candidate now.
The epitome of the confusion around support is is Beru Khyentse, who held a unique view that both candidates could be authentic, but now we find him more "attached" to Trinley Thaye Dorje. His son is the fourth incarnation of Jamgon Kontrol (within Thaye Dorje's lineage; a separate candidate resides within Orgyen Trinley's lineage) and is actually the second-ranking lineage holder in Thaye Dorje's lineage:
The page also needs to demonstrate the fact that the split did not just affect the Karmapa title, but every new incarnation since that time (e.g. Jamgon Kontrul, Kalu Rinpoche) has two candidates. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 20:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I believe it's difficult for an an average reader with no background to easily glean the history and current state of this topic. The overall state of the page starts with the lack of subsections and insistence on large blocks of text.
It would be more effective to break down each candidate's "case" and include "Circumstances leading to candidacy" as a leading subsection--have two separate set of verifiable assertions (i.e. references) that can live distinctly and be continually to be edited to get us towards completeness rather than quibbling over minor edits.
I'm also surprised that the subsection for "Trinley Thaye Dorje" literally has no references ([according to whom?])--it's like one big block of someone's stream of consciousness. There are plenty of resources, namely books, that could be used to fortify the information in that section, and I'm surprised that it's survived the editorial process thus far.
The awkwardness starts with the opening sentence, and I was interested in first contributing by tightening the overall language and basic organization of the page before adding or removing any information.
Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 21:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I reworked the introduction so it truly fulfills its purpose and the reader doesn't suddenly get lost in minute, context-less detail--those bits will need to be pushed into existing and new sections moving forward. The point here is to give the reader a true overview and consider that they only thing they may read is the intro. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 23:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
I've begun a restructuring of the page that should make it easier for an un-initiated reader to follow. I re-jiggered the existing sections and renamed some section titles--however further structure changes and additional sub-sections are to come. No major content changes yet but the page needs clearer and more concise language, a more logical flow and more references (and convoluted text moved from the wiki page and into references as quotes). The next step will be split out the points of contention one by one--prediction letter, authority to recognize Karmapa, and events leading up to and following recognition. There are two sets of actors, two stories and two interpretations of the events that readers need to be stepped through. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 05:07, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
In @ Anotherpinkfloydinthewall's new and unnecessarily repetitive section of Cases for... there isn't RS which actually supports TTD. Haven't found RS that even says TTD was named or identified in 1992, so the rescinded handwriting analysis request doesn't actually support him. It only reads like more opinionated POV. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 00:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Anotherpinkfloydinthewall Been pinging you. You gotta stop editing and deleting from a non-NPOV. You were pinged last night but continued editing and deleting today: "unjust" isn't in RS; "claim" vs "maintain" shows bias; the sequence of events directly before OTD was located provided balanced RS on Sharmapa, but is completely deleted from opening and subsections; deletions of other important details unbalances article; removal of most internet-based RS in favor of books is quite curious, since no one else can check RS. The excerpts aren't enough for fact checking, and most books are either balanced in favor of one or the other, a point which you make. This article needs to provide details and balance, RS, and not become a white wash for TTD and Sharmapa. Which is what it is now. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot 12:36 27 August 2020 (UTC)
The deleted RS have just been re-added (good to see the RS from their 2018/19 meetings weren't deleted), but just volunteering here, and taking the time to repair your deletions and POV. No worries. (Btw, threatening a block is not civil behavior, especially if you're not an administrator. Also, gotta ask: you do know what a 'pink floyd' is, correct?) Pasdecomplot 16:16 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I think for the most part the re-structuring can be used to achieve NPOV, though some sections look well rounded, and others are in need of development. Also, unresolved editor disputes behind the scenes show in the page and need to be cleaned up. Final outcome should be cohesive story that doesn't require in-depth knowledge of Tibetan politics. This page doesn't need to be difficult. Pasdecomplot I like the intro you and I worked towards more. Badabara ( talk) 02:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi @ Badabara. I've been working to the same goal, but focusing on the content after the opening. Addressed obvious issues, shifted repetitive info into same sections, added lots of RS. Found huge gaps of info in Recent Developments and filled them. Edited out POV from section titles where problematic but there's some awkwardness since the structure is awkward in these instances. Sections of Points for TTD and TTD versus need editing and info. Take a look, work in progress. Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 12:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot ( talk) 08:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
<------ Hi @ Badabara Please read WP:PA for comments here (stick to the content and avoid personal attacks) and WP:HA for nitpicking comments on Tibetan Buddhism (I asked in writing if there was agreement-thus, the allegation above is mischaracterization), and for comments here.
WP:RF This page in general needs to be simplified for readers. It goes too much into details that may seem "important to proving" one side is right over the other. However this page isn't about taking sides. Our goal is to give the reader an understanding of the controversy, and have a snap-shot of both sides and histories. There doesn't need to be in depth back and forth or an attempt to tell the story in full. For that, one can find many books on the subject. The controversy itself is also possibly over, as the two Karmapas have agreed to settle differences and work together to find the next Shamar Rinpoche incarnation. I'd like to see some of the fat trimmed - especially where there is repeated information, and also words with emotional or heated value. I will do this in small edits, and describe each edit. Please revert specific edits if you see I made a mistake or took out information that is important or key to the issue. I'd like help, feedback and assistance. Badabara ( talk) 04:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
This section has no sources cited and appears to be outdated, as it refers to Trinley Thaye Dorje "at present" studying under the guidance of Shamar Rinpoche. Shamar Rinpoche died in 2014. This section is in need of work. Badabara ( talk) 05:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The Buktham Letter is found 6 times in the page. Certainly it's an important facet of the Karmapa controversy, but I'm wondering if it's perhaps overly referred to. Any thoughts? Badabara ( talk) 05:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Recent developments show the two Karmapas have met. Shamar Rinpoche helped OTD obtain his paperwork to get to the US, and they met together. Shamar Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama met as well. It seems those involved at the top are amicable and issue statements that despite the complexity of the situation (Tibetan, Indian and Chinese politics) there is confidence there will be a solution that is beneficial for all. For this reason, I think this page will eventually do well to expand recent developments and trim down history to key points. Of course I mean over the years..... What do you all think? Badabara ( talk) 05:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Strangely the section "Points for Trinley Thaye Dorje" has no content. Certainly there should be a few paragraphs or bullet points here. Badabara ( talk) 05:09, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Wondering if it's possible to combine some of the categories to reduce repetition. The subject matter and history is complex, but a brief introduction to the subject does not need to be. Badabara ( talk) 06:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Welcome to those who are interesd in the Karmapa controversy especially if you are new to wikipedia. Please remember to strive for a Neutral Point of View, and that we are writing an encylopedia (see What Wikipedia is not). Also please remember to put comments in the Edit summary box so others can see what you have done, and to use this discussion page especially to discuss things on the page you disagree with so that we can try to reach a consensus. Also there have been lots of anonymous edits to this page, and it would be really nice if some of you created an account so we could get to know you better, and see who writes what. Billlion 21:12, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi Skyerise I noticed you deleted the section regarding the joint statement. Was the deletion simply because it wasn't a secondary source (primary research)? Or was there a different reason?
Just want to make sure we're on the same page, before I add the section using secondary sources. Badabara ( talk) 22:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The last changes were: "Thaye Dorje's side claims, that it was established for the purpose of administring Rumtek Monastery in the absence of a Karmapa reincarnation. This actually fits with the statute of the trust, which consists of several secondary members and one central figure. The main member, the Karmapa, is the actual head of the trust. In case of the death of the main trustee, the others take over with its management by means of majority vote.
The trust has been victorious before the court in all preliminary stages without exception.
Urgyen Trinley's supporters claim that since 1981 Rumtek monastery has been primarily managed by Gyaltsap Rinpoche, who has periodically resided there. Gyaltsap Rinpoche has excused himself as a proper party from the court case and is thus not contesting in that regard any longer."
Is this reasonable and correct? I just reverted it to give the possibility to discuss it. If it is correct and neutral please add it again or correct it. Kt66 15:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know H.E. Beru Khentse Rinpoche is speaking on a balanced view on it and he never took any site of the two Karmapa candidates. So why is is mentioned as supporter of Venerable Thaye Dorje? Does anybody know more? Should we changes this? Thank you. Kt66 23:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Billion. Because you added the view as stated by Chokyie Nyima Rinpoche, I added that Mingyur Dorje Rinpoche (his brother) is also the son of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche. But we can delete my addition if it confueses the article, beacuse it is mentioned in his wiki article too. Kt66 10:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The article reports Ven. Thrangu saying that he personally knows that K16 wrote two prediction letters. Then the article states as fact that many people had read at least on the letters and that 50 copies were made of it. Then it says that the document that was inside Tai Situ's amulet is yet a third letter. Is this correct and for real? As far as I know, there are only two prediction documents that were ever claimed to exist, and one of those was later admitted by all parties to have been a fake. Neither of the two books I read about this subject mentioned anything about two other letters. What gives? - Nat Krause( Talk!) 18:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I have been checking out the Ole Nydahl page and there's info there which I think is more relevant on the Karmpa Controversy page. They are regarding his views on the Dalai Lama in the controversy and another editor in turn put in a reply to Nydahl's views and these are more relevant here rather than on Nydahl's bio page. What do you all think?-- Rico yogi 22:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The following was added to recognition section by an anon editor. I felt it should be merged in to the section on "claims by his supporters" or merged carefully with the current "Recognition of the Karmapa" section carefully balencing any different views from the two sides with sources. I do not agree that the section as it stands is POV, but this should be debated before such an edit. Billlion 17:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
View of Thaye Dorje's Supporters: They denote a central role in the process of recognition to the Sharmapas and base themselves upon an expertise of Prof. Geoffrey Samuel stützen (S16ff: http://www.karmapa.org.nz/articles/2005/geoffreysamuel.pdf). Here, the whereabouts of the traditional process of reincarnation are shown. Prof. Samuel sources for the research are Douglas and White, the Black Hat Lama of Tibet, 1976: 31-110, dealing with the text "zla wa chu shel gyi phreng ba" and oral explanations of the 16th Karmapa ). This presentation clearly contradicts the one presented above. Since the 14. century, the recognition of the Karmapa reincarnation seems to have been mainly under the authority of the Shamar Tulkus. In that way the 5. (2.Shamar), 6. (3.Shamar), 10. (Shamar 6) and 11. (Shamar 7) Karmapa-reincarnations where solely recognized by Shamar Tulkus. The 9.Karmapa was recognized by both, the 5.Shamar Tulku and the 4.Situ Tulku together and the 12. by a group that was asked to do so by the 8.Shamar Tulku. An exception is only the 8. Karmapa, who was recognized by the 3.Situ Tulku. The 7. Karmapa (recognized by the 1.Gyaltsab Tulku ) and the 13.Karmapa (by the 7.Gyaltsab Tulku ) are no real exceptions to undermine the authority of the Shamar Tulkus, because because the Shamar Tulkus of that time died almost around the same time than the respective Karmapa Tulkus and where hence unavailable. This situation changed only 1790 as the Lhasa Regime forbid the reincarnations of the Shamar Tulkus. From that time on, the Tulkus were recognized by various masters: 14. (by the 9.Situpa), the 15. (by the 9.Drukchen Rinpoche) and the 16. Karmapa (by the 11. Situ and the 2 Jamgon Kongtrul).
I think the earlier version of the text appears to be flawed. Geoffrey Samuel seems to be a neutral source (even though his research was presented as favourable evidence by Trinley Thaye Dorje's supporters in a court case, his tone and conclusions seem quite balanced and scholarly) and, in any event, he is simply summarising information found in a book written before the controversy began. Factually, the earlier version seems similar, but it appears to systematically downplay the role of the Shamarpa. Here are the discrepancies between the earlier version of this article and Samuel's research:
Samuel's research does seem to show that, between the birth of the second Shamarpa in 1339 and the banning of the lineage by the Lhasa government in the 1790s, only the 8th Karmapa was recognised by someone else when there was an adult Shamarpa available. In the time during the ban (during which there were only three Karmapas recognised), the Shamarpa no longer played this role, and Tai Situ was involved in two of three instances.
Without regard to any issues of how they are to be interpreted or explained, the facts seem more reliably described by the newer text (which sites a source, unlike the older version). We should work to combine the two versions, preserving the facts presented in the newer one.
I should also note, as an object of side research, that, going by the dates on Tai Situ, from the time of the birth of the second Tai Situ in 1450, the Tai Situ was always a minor at the time of the Karmapa's recognition, until the 13th in 1732. Somehow, this did not stop him from participating in two recognitions before that, including the single-handed recognition of the 8th Karmapa by the 3rd Tai Situ when the latter was only nine years old! Some of these dates might not be entirely reliable.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 21:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
28th of March of 2007 - 1:00 am GMT.
Facts: I think this article it is not neutral, and clearly shows preference to one of the Karmapa's candidats. It also doesn't mention that there was a third one of latin origin, among 2 or 3 more. Tai Situ Rinpoche was forbiden to enter India because he already was involved with the chinese government in the "accidental" and mysterious death of many lamas and Rinpoches who did not accept the Orgyen candidature to Karmapa, and Orgyen himself could not leave his monastery.
Now for history facts: it is not the first time that such thing happens in the Karma Kagyu Lineage, though it was not as long as this thread.
Tulkus facts: Reincarnations are not linear, as many westerner people might think, and sometimes there are many reincarnations of a relevant teacher or emanation, though they are not complete, and they must be together to work. And by destroying one another makes the picture that none had understood anything about the Buddha's Teachings, nor even the basic Abidhamma.
The reason why a Master or Emanation wants to divide him or herself nobody is sure of, but the original Master or Emanation, but it may be because he or she needs to develop his or her Mind, Heart and Mouth in a more specific way, and he or she may need two, three or more people to do all the job his or her has to do.
There are also cases when a master decides to transfer his or her consciousness instead of acquiring a new body, because he or she is in a hurry to do a particular task that keeps him or her tied to a quick return until he or she finishes the work he or she came back for.
In this case, and for the benefit of the Kagyu Lineage and the benefit of the union among Tibetan Buddhists traditions, I think both candidats are one, and should work together, and if this does not happen, it means that the Kagyu Lineage is not worth to continue in activity, because it shows how poor are the true buddhist Teachings. And I don't know who are other lineages to sign a certificate of being the H.H. the Karmapa reincarnation.
About myself, I was of bhutanese origin, and I do belong to the Drugkpa Lineage. And I trully feel very sad and dissapointed, because as Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche said, the Karma Kagyu is going to be divided in two, and an elephant will destroy it. And I am sure Karma Kagyu Lineage will be destroyed if both reincarnations cannot work together in brotherhood.
If both reincarnations agreed to share the title and burocracy soothes it and make it flexible to accept both tulkus, Karma Kagyu's activity will be fortunate and Tibetan Buddhism will stay a long time in the West, if not, Tibetan Buddhism of the Karma Kagyu will die, and all Lineages will blame it.
This article claims that Orgyen Thrinley is supported by the majority, but this support is based on the respect that every lama and Rinpoches of all Lineages have for H.H. the Dalai Lama and the gelugpas, which were the one's who recognized him as a Karmapa, violating all rules of all lineages. I do respect him as well, but this is not honest.
I guess you all are commiting a big mistake, with very bad consequences to buddhism in general, which will build a lot of bad karma to all involved, which shows the big ignorance on true buddhist teachings.
For outsiders, the list of endorsements of the different candidates by various luminaries is one of the more important parts of this article. However, I was vaguely dismayed to discover that more than one of the endorsers listed are not adults and therefore not really in a position to make an informed endorsement. For instance, we are listing, among the supporters of Urgyen Trinley Dorje: the 4th Jamgon Kongtrul, the 3rd Kalu, and the 11th Pawo, who are currently 12(?) years old, 15 years old, and 12 years old, respectively. The article doesn't say when they gave their endorsement; it may have been when they were considerably younger. In each case, their predecessors died before having an opportunity to accept or reject either candidate. We should try to figure out which of the putative endorsers are actually in a position to give their informed assent, and remove those who aren't from the list. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 21:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
That's a good point. One can't help but wonder whether we will have doubles of everyone from now on, or what. Alternate Karma Kagyu universes entirely. Sylvain1972 16:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I have just done a fairly extensive edit on this article. Since this is obviously a fairly contentious topic, I wanted to mention here that I have no personal connection to the topic at all (in fact, no prior knowledge of it whatsoever), so please be assured that my extensive edits performed today were solely for the purpose of correcting typos, grammar and punctuation, and for standardizing the way in which footnotes and references are indicated. I hope those of you working on this article find it to be improved. Maralia 18:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
How should this article treat one Dawa Sangpo Dorjee, the Sherpa claimant to the position of 17th Karmapa? Generally, I think he should be discussed minimally (his existence is confirmed by a few Indian newspaper reports and a letter appearing on the Shamarpa's http://www.karmapa-issue.org website). He is certainly a Karmapa claimaint, but he is not a very important part of the Karmapa controversy. Moreover, while it may very well be true, from a religious perspective, that Dawa Sangpo Dorjee is the true 17th Karmapa (we know for a fact that either the Shamarpa or the Tai Situ is wrong about the Karmapa's identity—perhaps they both are), but, from a secular perspective, there is basically nothing we can just a hierarch by except for his acceptance by other accepted leaders in his denomination. Dawa Sangpo Dorjee, at the current time, has none of this.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 23:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes to this page, providing an update to the Rumtek court case information and correcting the paragraph on the history of the recognition of the Karmapas. It was reverted back to its original form by someone who said my changes were biased.
I'm aware this is a touchy subject and I did not intend to offend anyone.
I'd like to know what the person who reverted the page thought was biased about the changes.
Thanks. Rebecca
Okay, let's take the paragraph on who recognized the Karmapas first. The list I used is from Buddha's Not Smiling by E. Curren. Mr. Curren is, admittedly, a student of Shamar Rinpoche. Of this information in his book he says, "This information is taken from a chart submitted in 2004 by Geoffrey Samuel, professor of anthropology at the University of Newcastle in Australia . . " as part of an affidavit in a case before the High Court of New Zealand. Curren quotes Samuel, "For the first thirteen Karmapas, their [referring to Nik Douglas and Meryl White's book Karmapa: The Black Hat Lama of Tibet, Samuel's primary source] account is based on the Zla ba chu Shel gyi phreng ba ('Moon Water Crystal Rosary') by the 8th Situ . . . supplemented by two earlier sources. For the 14th and 16th Karmapas, it is based on the spoken commentary of the 16th Karmapa. Both sources should be acceptable to all parties in the present dispute."
What source is the original from?
As to the Rumtek court case, are you disputing that the Indian Supreme Court declined to overturn the earlier courts' decisions or that the final decision is pending? I don't have access to court records, but can point to this Asia Times article from 2004 http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FG21Ad06.html .
What do you think?
Rebecca
Since I haven't had a response, I'm thinking you may want the specifics of the changes I made.
I added "Trinley" to Thaye Dorje's name and updated "As of early 2006, they have not met".
I changed the three middle paragraphs on the recognition of the Karmapas as follows:
"Karmapas are self-recognizing. That means that many incarnations (seven out of sixteen) claim very early in life to be Karmapa, recognize associates and colleagues of the previous incarnation, and have been generally remarkable for their age (see history of previous incarnations). Also, each Karmapa has left indications leading to his next re-birth, often in the form of a letter. In such letters, indications regarding the location and parentage of the next incarnation were included, though usually in a poetic form that is difficult to decipher.
However, the closest associates of the previous incarnation play a crucial role in the process of recognizing the next Karmapa. After all, it is they - adult and fully realized Buddhist masters - who have been closely associated with the previous incarnation and will have to raise and teach the new one.
The process of recognition has involved different lamas since the first recognition in the early 13th century. Of the past Karmapas, Shamar Rinpoche has recognized the 5th, 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th. Situ Rinpoche has recognized the 8th, 9th (with Shamar Rinpoche), 14th and 16th (with Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche) Karmapas. Gyaltsap Rinpoche has recognized the 7th and 13th Karmapas. The other incarnations were recognized by other Kagyupa lamas."
I just checked it and found this list: Khenpo Tcheudrak summarizes the history of the various recognitions of Karmapa in the following way:
Furthermore, among the previous Karmapas:
According to this source you can see just three are recognized by Shamarpa Rinpoche directly. Kt66
There is obviously some disagreement in the sources, but I can assure you that I have not made anything up to "push" Sharmapa. I just had a look at Karmapa, the Black Hat Lama of Tibet. In the Appendix about the Sharmapas they are credited with all of the recognitions I have listed. The book cites original Tibetan sources for this information. What do we do? Rebecca 00:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I updated the paragraphs under "Recent Developments" as follows:
"Control of Rumtek monastery, the seat of the 16th Karmapa in exile, is hotly contested between its rival claimants. In 1961 the 16th Karmapa established the Karmapa Charitable Trust under a provision of Indian law that allows reincarnate lamas to safeguard their assets in the period between their death and their reincarnation's coming of age.
Urgyen Trinley's followers claim that the trust was solely established for the sake of seeing to the welfare of the Karmapa's followers, to provide funds for the maintenance of the monastery, for the monks medical fees, and so forth. Thaye Dorje's supporters claim that Tai Situpa attempted an end run around the other members of the Trust and when he was unable to accomplish this, he and Gyaltsab Rinpoche took over Rumtek by force in 1993. The dispute over Rumtek has been working its way through the Indian court system every since.
In July of 2004 the Indian Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal of a group created by Gyaltsab Rinpoche and let stand an earlier decision of the Sikkim District Court and a subsequent confirmation by the High Court in New Delhi which determined that Gyaltsab's group had no legal claim to Rumtek and that the Karmapa Charitable Trust is legally entitled to manage Rumtek.
The final legal decision is still pending as of early 2006."
Comments? Rebecca
Thanks, Billion! I have a user name, but maybe I didn't sign in when I made the changes. I will from now on.
The statement about Rumtek is prefaced with "Thaye Dorje's supporters claim . . .". The only sources I have are, of course, from people who support Thaye Dorje. There's the detailed report in Buddha's Not Smiling. There's the eyewitness account by two of the 16th Karmapa's monks who were present at the takeover, which is published in the report of the International Karma Kagyu Conference in New Delhi in March of 1996. There are a number of newspaper articles that repeat the story. None of these will convince folks firmly on the other side of the divide. That's why I prefaced the statement as I did. There is no doubt that Thaye Dorje's supporters claim that Rumtek was taken over by force after other, more covert, attempts failed.
Now lets try that four tilde thing and see if it works. Rebecca 21:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not relying only on one source, although I am relying largely on sources which support Thaye Dorje. The single exception is the series of articles by Julian Gearing published in the Asia Times. Mr. Gearing has no connection to either camp and appears to have researched his articles most thoroughly. The source you cite supports Urgyen Trinley. That's fine, but I don't see that it proves anything. Since neither of us appears to have access to the court records or to an Indian lawyer, we must rely on the sources available to us. What's to be done? Rebecca 22:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
In the article you refer to, Julian Gearing writes, "Some older Karma Kagyu followers still suspect the Dalai Lama of using black magic to kill the 16th Karmapa, who died of cancer. Such extreme views, however, are not held by the majority of Tibetans." He identifies the idea as extreme and rare, so I don't think it's fair to suggest that he's trying to stir up trouble or that he is less than objective on the Karmapa issue. He does not say that he agrees with this idea, only that some people still hold it.
In the late 1970's the XVI Karmapa came to our Santa Cruz KTC for two days. I was the president of the cente at the time. The room he stayed in was usually occupied by a friend and roommate that was a Gelugpa student. (We didn't have enough Kagyu students to fill the house.) She had a picture of the Dalai Lama in her room that the 'Vajra Guards' (Trungpa's people) insisted be removed, saying that the Dalai Lama was trying to kill the Karmapa. I spoke to H.H. about the issue of the picture personally, and he said, "His Holiness and I are on very good terms." That is direct from the horse's mouth to a first person witness--me. My name is John Keefer 76.172.93.217 01:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to hear from other editors, as Kt66 suggests. Anybody have any thoughts? Rebecca 15:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Gearing is making the point that the relations between the 16th Karmapa and the Dalai Lama or at least the Dalai Lama's government-in-exile were not always cordial and that this has left some people with these extreme opinions. He's a journalist. He's reporting the opinion, not because he thinks the opinion is true, but to illustrate how some people feel about the situation.
I'm not sure that it's useful to get into a wrangle about this one sentence in the article. The ultimate point, as I see it, is that Julian Gearing is a journalist who has been covering Asia for twenty-some years and that he does not have a prior connection with either faction in the Karmapa issue. His statement regarding the Rumtek case before the Supreme Court of India (which is where we started on this) is at least as much to be trusted as the statement of the so-called "Tsurphu Labrang," which is, not surprisingly, partisan. If you don't like Gearing, then we should still be able to change this part of the article to include the claim of Thaye Dorje's supporters regarding the court cases cited.
As for the other issue of who recognized which Karmapa when, I think we may have to rewrite that part of the article to reflect the fact that different sources give us different answers. I'll work on that over the next few days and post it here. Rebecca 23:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it's going to be very difficult for us to get really neutral information on this subject no matter what we do. I've recently finished reading two books about it: Tomek Lehnert's book and The Dance of 17 Lives by Mick Brown. Neither strikes me as very fair and balanced. Lehnert gives the impression that he is not even trying to be neutral. Brown, on the other hand, tries, but he comes across as a Spiritual Tourist (the title of one of his earlier books) who was wowed by the Dalai Lama and the Urgyen Chiley Dorje people from the outset. Together, they provide a little bit of balance, but it remains quite difficult to determine what is factually true and what isn't. This is in part because both sides have engaged in their fair share of mendacity, sometimes cooperatively. For instance—althhough it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Wikipedia article yet—there is the matter of the putative "original prediction letter" from the 16th Karmapa: this was supposedly found in the mid-1980s and was enshrined in a box, where it was the object of many prostrations and a lot of veneration while the four regents (Shamarpa, Tai Situpa, Jamgon Kongtrul, and Gyaltsab Rinpoche) supposedly waited to make the contents public. The Tai Situpa later revealed that the whole thing was a lie: there had never been a prediction letter in the box at all. Mick Brown says that all four regents were in on the deception, whereas Lehnert doesn't say whether or not the Shamarpa was (you would expect he would tell you if Shamarpa wasn't). Once all of the principals have had their credibility impeached, it's hard to know what's really going on.
Looking at the revisions under discussion now, they look like a mixed bag. Some of them were just minor updates, which are a good thing and appreciated.
Kt66's version of the "self-recognizing" passage is clearly better. " Karmapas are self-recognizing. That means that many incarnations (seven out of sixteen) claim very early in life to be Karmapa" doesn't make much sense, since the first sentence implies that it should be all of them, not 7 of 16. However we phrase it, this passage is problematic and I don't know what to do about it, because there are no unbiased historical sources that I am aware of that verify the self-recognition of earlier Karmapas. It's a bit like an article on the Catholic Pope saying, "Popes are chosen by the College of Cardinals in strict submission to the will of God."
The paragraph beginning, "The process of recognition has involved many different lamas ..." contains two different issues. There's a factual claim about which Karmapas were recognised by which lamas; I can't really comment on that (we might wind up having to say, "Source X says ABC, but Source Y says DEF.") There's also a wording issue: "many" seems like a bit of an overstatement to me. The rest of the wording of the current version seems a bit confusing and should be cleaned up.
The statement that the Karmapa Trust was established "under a provision of Indian law that allows reincarnate lamas to safeguard their assets in the period between their death and their reincarnation's coming of age" needs to be factually verified. It is also potentially misleading if the Karmapa's motive for founding it was not, in fact, to safeguard his assets, or if this motive is disputed. As for, "Thaye Dorje's supporters claim that Tai Situpa attempted an end run around the other members of the Trust", I think everyone agrees that this is true, although calling it an "end-run" might be prejudicial. Whether he and Gyaltsab then proceeded to seize Rumtek by force is certainly something that the Shamarpa's side makes a great deal of; I'm not sure what the other side says about it. "In July of 2004 the Indian Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal of a group created by Gyaltsab Rinpoche and let stand an earlier decision of the Sikkim District Court and a subsequent confirmation by the High Court in New Delhi which determined that Gyaltsab's group had no legal claim to Rumtek and that the Karmapa Charitable Trust is legally entitled to manage Rumtek," is, as far as I know, completely true and it seems like an important fact to mention.
We might also want to include something about how—as far as I can tell—the Karmapa Charitable Trust is about to become irrelevant. Its bylaws state that the Karmapa becomes the sole trustee on his 21st birthday. Well, Thaye Dorje is already 21 and Urgyen Chiley Dorje will be later this year. Once that happens, one would imagine the control over KTC will become disputed just as the identity of Karmapa is disputed. That is, KTC will no longer be a separate third power. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 23:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Recently, a number of names were added to the list of people who recognise one candidate or another as the current Karmapa. This is getting to be problematic, because no sources are provided for any of these names. I can't think of a fair way to exclude some but leave others in, so, for now, I have removed everyone listed as agreeing to the recognition. These names can and should be re-added with proper citations: Here is the removed text:
"[Regarding Ogyen Trinley Dorje:] Other prominent Kagyu lamas who accept the recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje include the Ninth Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, the Ninth Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche (a former Abbot of Rumtek Monastery), the Seventh Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche and his Nalandabodhi organization, the Seventh Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche (the youngest son of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche), the Third Tenga Rinpoche, the Venerable Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, the Venerable Bokar Rinpoche, the Third Bardor Tulku Rinpoche, the Venerable Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche (abbot of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra), H.E. Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche and his organization, Shambhala International, the Venerable Drupon Rinpoche, the Venerable Akong Rinpoche and his Samye Ling Monastery and Lama Norlha Rinpoche, among others. Ogyen Trinley is also recognized by several reincarnate high lamas who are currently minors, including the Fourth Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, the Eleventh Pawo Rinpoche, the Third Kalu Rinpoche, and the Twelfth Surmang Trungpa Rinpoche. All of these younger lamas were in turn recognized by Ogyen Trinley himself, or by Karma Kagyu lamas aligned with him."
"[Regarding Trinley Tayê Dorje:] Other lamas who accept his recognition are The 4th Jamgon Kongtrul Karma Migyur Drakpa Senge Trinley Kunkhyab Palzangpo, the Venerable Jigme Rinpoche (brother to Shamar Rinpoche and nephew to the 16th. Karmapa), the Very Venerable Shangpa Rinpoche, the Very Venerable Lopon Tsechu Rinpoche (who passed away in 2003), His Eminence Chogye Trichen Rinpoche, His Eminence Trungram Gyaltrul Rinpoche, H.E Lopon Tenzin Jigme Rinpoche, Ven. Nedo Kulha Rinpoche, Khenpo Chodrak Rinpoche (a former Abbot of Rumtek Monastery and nephew to the 16th. Karmapa), H.E. Chog Gyur Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche, Ngendo Rinpoche ( Dorje Lopon of the Kagyu lineage), Khenchen Tashi Paljor Rinpoche, Maniwa Sherab Gyaltsen Rinpoche, Sabchu Rinpoche, Lama Gendün Rinpoche (the meditation master and the spiritual leader of the four Dhagpos), Sangsang Rinpoche, Trinle Tulku, H.E. Karma Chagme Rinpoche, Tulku Lodrö Rabpel, Drupseng Rinpoche, Lama Tönsang, and Trehor Lama Thubten, Ven. Tshurphu Lopon Rinpoche, Ven. Minawa Jampa Gyamtso Rinpoche, Ven. Tshurphu Khentrul Rinpoche, Ven. Tulku Tsheyang Rinpoche, Ven. Lowo Tulku Rinpoche and Ven. Tulku Tenzin Rinpoche. Lama Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way organization are prominent supporters of Thaye Dorje in the West."— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 02:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Changchub ( talk) 03:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks like an attempt to move the page manually. If anyone wants to propos renaming the page this is the place to do it. Not a deletion debate after a badly executed attempt to change the name! Billlion ( talk) 16:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Agree. Hopefully this nomination will be speedily closed. Andrewa ( talk) 06:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
That there's two 17th Karmapas is something that's gone beyond initial controversy to what has now been an abiding outcome for 15 years and longer. It's become a settled fact of life in which a generation has grown up having personal recall of nothing otherwise. HH the 16th Karmapa died 27 years ago. Best practice is then to rename this " 17th Karmapa recognitions". This is in just the same way that over time we have been able to accept the Partition of India as no longer a 'controversy' and rather a settled and abiding outcome that has proved its stability over a lengthy period such as to have achieved an aspect of permanence. Sacerdote ( talk) 03:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I am sympathetic to renaming, although I think it is still a controversy, and I think people may well google for that. However the title 17th Karmapa recognitions does not sound right for an article title. To be adequately descriptive the title would have to be longer so that it is clear what it is about. How about "Controversy over the recognition of the 17th Karamaps" or "Dispute over recognition of the 17th Karmapa" Billlion ( talk) 22:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
"This matter has two aspects : the first being the practice of Buddhism, which is not brought into question by any of the centres whatsoever; the second concerning the recognition of a reincarnation, where each person has the freedom of their individual choice. Consequently it is the duty of the [French Association of Tibetan Buddhists] to accommodate all the centres and practitioners of Buddhism."
As this has been listed at WP:RM I've added the normal header and discussion areas to this page. Andrewa ( talk) 07:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
There are currently several related fields of activity regarding this article, currently called Karmapa controversy.
On 20 March, a fork of this article was created at 17th Karmapa recognitions with the edit summary The Karmapa lineage is the most ancient tulku lineage in Tibetan Buddhism, pre-dating the Dalai Lama lineage by more than...
Also on 20 March, a deletion request was opened by the user who had created the fork, for Karmapa controversy, with the reason Duplication. WP:POVFORK from 17th Karmapa recognitions. This nomination seems likely to fail.
On 22 March, with the AfD still open, a move request was opened, again by the same user, requesting this article be moved to 17th Karmapa recognitions. The request was incomplete, the article was listed at WP:RM but no discussion space created; I completed the request to allow discussion, see the Requested move section above. This nomination also seems likely to fail.
Currently, this same user is engaged in extensive editing to the article, including a minor edit war over the tone and contents of the article. The aim of this editing appears to be to water down the controversial aspects of the issue, to justify renaming it to... wait for it... 17th Karmapa recognitions.
It seems ironical to me that the self-appointed defender of such holy men should decide to try our patience so severely. But perhaps, our patience should not be limitless? Andrewa ( talk) 20:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, yes, and I see they have also reported you for allegedly breaking the 3RR... on the evidence presented there, you didn't actually break it as I'm sure you're aware, as the fourth edit was more than 24 hours after the first.
Perhaps it would be wise to raise unhelpful edits here after the first revert. I adhere loosely to a 1RR myself, but even with that restriction I can be some help. Andrewa ( talk) 05:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Here are some example of article called ¨controversies¨ Easter controversy, Investiture Controversy, Whitewater controversy, Global warming controversy, Japanese succession controversy, Vestments controversy. Many of them are historical and so are not controversial now. 88.104.7.89 ( talk) 19:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
My apologies to all who are involved in trying to legitimately present this issue to the public. In an attempt to protect this page from further manipulation by Sacerdote I requested that it be fully protected, however, I underestimated the speed and determination with which said User was trying to force their opinion upon the presentation of this article. Consequently, it is now fully protected in the form which Sacerdote has been trying to impose upon the page for the next 2 days. I sincerely apologize to all those seeking to reflect an accurate and NPOV on this issue for having underestimated the determination of the individual involved in this edit war.-- Changchub ( talk) 09:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
User:Sacerdote has been blocked indefinitely and the page protection reduced to semi-protection, so you should be able to edit the page without too much trouble. But please bear the above comments in mind! Andrewa ( talk) 11:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that the English translation of the prediction letter included in this article differs rather substantially from the original translation released. Does this bear mentioning here somewhere? And if so, how?-- Changchub ( talk) 02:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
And also the suppression of the lead image presenting both 17th Karmapas. I can't fathom it from any edit summary or talkpage comment supplied. Sacerdote ( talk) 05:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Please, both tell me about this. What's the image, and why should or shouldn't it be used? Andrewa ( talk) 05:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The copyright clearance of Image:CoKarmapas.JPG looks extremely dubious to me. It appears to have been assembled from two other images from Wikimedia Commons. However, one of these images is licensed under CC-A, and the attribution requirement of this licence has not been met by the creator of the new image; The other appears to have been deleted, so its copyright status is unknown. Probably the image should be deleted from Wikimedia Commons on these grounds.
The title of the image also begs the question; The image description expands it as co-claimants. The question of whether they are rivals for the title or whether (as some claim) they can both have legitimate similtaneous claims was one of the key issues in the controversy, and seems still open.
Finally, it's potentially misleading. It could be taken to be a picture of a meeting between them, which of course it is not. If both these images are to be included, there's no good reason for them to be combined in this way, rather they should be included as separate images.
So all in all, an image to avoid. Andrewa ( talk) 15:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I just had a look at http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/karmapa/kar00.php which is the page headed 17th Karmapa on the Karma Triyana Dharmachackra monastery website. It describes one of the candidates and doesn't even mention that there's another... surprise, surprise. Andrewa ( talk) 02:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody have any information about the outcome(s) of it? The Indian Supreme Court (in 2004) said that any remaining questions about Rumtek Monastery go back to the District Judge there to be sorted out between the Charitable Trust in charge of it and the Government of Sikkim. So what was decided and what was sorted out? I know one thing that happened was that an official of the Reserve Bank of India was appointed to conduct the inventory of property at the monastery. Did that happen in an orderly fashion? Was a result that they confirmed the location of the black Karmapa crown that seems to have gone missing since 1981. Oestrik ( talk) 11:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
17th Karmapa doesn't exist. Shouldn't this exist as a redirect to this page? 70.51.8.110 ( talk) 10:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm a little disgusted to see the most recent attempted whitewash, which seems to want to deny that anything was ever controversial. Oestrik, you know as well as I do that we could have a hundred cites to back up the fact that this whole affair has been controversial. And Billion, that is a perfectly legitimate quote that you deleted, cleared cited and sourced. Sylvain1972 15:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
No personal attacks please, even on banned users and alleged socks. If this really is a sock, just put in a checkuser and get it blocked. Andrewa ( talk) 02:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
[RFC request by banned user removed] Khoi khoi 21:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
ConcurredInWriting ( talk) 12:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Next time DavidYork or one of his sockpuppets makes a comment here, let's not respond to it. See WP:NOFEEDING. BTW, this talk page should probably be archived. Khoi khoi 21:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. JPG-GR ( talk) 20:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Karmapa controversy → 17th Karmapa recognitions — Completing incomplete move proposal — Andrewa ( talk) 07:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
From WP:RM:
The article is descriptive of the circumstances of dual concurrent recognitions of 17th Karmapas, not of those circumstance being termed 'controversy' in the minds of some who commentate on them. Sacerdote ( talk) 04:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Note also
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Karmapa controversy.
All told, it's a bit of a mess.
Andrewa (
talk)
08:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
From the survey above: A greater part of material I see exploring this subject matter refers to a 'Karmapa matter' or 'Karmapa issue', not a 'Karmapa controversy'. For example when French Buddhists raised an administration concern with the Dalai Lama in Sept 2000 they used the terminology 'Karmapa matter'. This surely is the sort of diplomat-speak reserved for the most delicate negotiations. We should not adopt it. Call a spade a spade and a controversy a controversy. Andrewa ( talk) 12:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I added: "The head of the Sakya school, H.H. Sakya Trizin and the present head of of the Nyingma school, H.H. Mindoling Trichen Rinpoche also recognised Urgyen Trinley Dorje as the present 17th Karmapa." this information was given me in the past, but I doubt if there is a reference for this. Does anybody know? Otherwise I feel I should remove this, if there is no valid source. Who knows something or has a source for this claim? Thank you, Kt66 15:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Although I am aware that it does not prove anything about the official stance of H.H. Sakya Trizin. I do have a photograph of Urgyen Trinley Dorje and Sakya Trizin speaking together. Something that might be taken to indicate at least some form of approval. Zenshaft 17:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I have just found the quote of that addition: "Karmapa Urgyen Trinley Dorje" by Ken Holmes, ISBN: 3-89568-027-3, page 56. So I will re-add it. -- Kt66 10:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Didn't anyone consult oracles, or perform a mo? I can't imagine that His Holiness signed off on Urgyen Trinle without at least performing a simple mo with tsampa balls, which is generally quite accurate (at least, in His Holiness hands anyway). It just seems crazy that no one would go to an oracle to check, but then, I don't know which one one would go to. I don't suppose it would be Nechung, at any rate. Anyone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.9.184.181 ( talk) 15:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The introduction states: The lineage is an important one as the Karmapa is traditionally the head of the Karma Kagyu school, one of the four main schools of Tibetan Buddhism. IMHO, " Kagyu" is one of the four main schools, not "Karma Kagyu", which is a sub-school of Kagyu, see Tibetan Buddhism#Schools and the introduction of Karmapa. So I think that sentence should be changed. BNutzer ( talk) 01:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
In External Links > Statements, interviews, documentaries, background material
please add under
the following
The link http://www.karmapa-issue.org/arguments/indian_supreme_court.htm is referenced under point 16 'Indian Supreme Court decision on Rumtek' but in fact this is a selfpublished information of an heavily involved party ( WP:SPS) and the article is no WP:RS, hence, either please remove this reference or make it neutral NPOV like "Indian Supreme Court decision on Rumtek according to supporters of Thaye Dorje". I think, the reader is mislead by claiming 'Indian Supreme Court decision on Rumtek' and linking to a WP:SPS without any approval of a WP:RS. Thanks, -- 79.4.150.9 ( talk) 13:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move per request.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 12:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Karmapa Controversy → Karmapa controversy — Usually I would just do a move like this but this article was once named Karmapa controversy and it was changed to Karmapa Controversy, so I wonder whether changing it back might be controversial. I don't believe it is a proper name so Controversy should not be capitalised, per WP:LOWERCASE. Nurg ( talk) 08:23, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Īf the Urgen Thinley Dorjee is the real Karmapa Then who is the Kaling Tulku? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.248.124.149 ( talk) 12:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
This text is removed: "In 2003, Luding Kechen Rinpoche (a Sakya lama) decided to pass the transmission of large number of Kagyu tantras to Thaye Dorje instead of the Orgyen Trinley Dorje.[24]". Reasons: In the reference it is not stated that this Sakya lama transmited the linage to Thaye Dorje instead of Orgyen Trinley Dorje. Thaye Dorje just asked for this transmission and received it (according to the cited ref). Moreover, each lama, especially young rinpoches, including also Orgyen Trinley Dorje receive every year many high teachings and transmissions. So what's the point to post here this particular one? Volovsky ( talk) 21:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
User:VictoriaGrayson tagged the article with Original Research. Could you please comment on which parts of the article you have in mind? As for Primary sources I don't see how this can be avoided. There are very few neutral sources of secondary analysis, most people knowledgeable and publishing on the subject take a firm view on one side or other of the conflict. Thanks Billlion ( talk) 06:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
The additions to the page made on March 30 2015 were un-sourced opinions about the ability of enlightened beings to contain their mindstreams. I removed as they don't follow wikipedia's NPOV guidelines. These were anonymous changes but please in future avoid placing personal opinions on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mekinna1 ( talk • contribs) 17:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
While the article mentions Beru Khyentse as a supporter of Thaye Dorje, his position seems to be a lot more layered than that. Surely it would be fair to post a link to his letter on the subject, in which he states that he has attempted to act as a peacemaker between the two sides.
Trawling round the web, it appears that there's an entire Oz-NZ subplot generated by the hostility towards Beru Khyentse over his assumed support for Thaye Dorje. It seems to involve a battle over a Karma Kagyu centre in New Zealand, possibly (I'm surmising here) the collapse of a KK centre in Sydney, (Karma Donag Choling) and problems with Beru Khyentse's land in southern NSW.
I realise it's not neccessarily the role of Wikipedia to itemise every facet of the Karma Kagyu's internecine battles. However, this site appears to be the only repository of objective, or at least, bi-partisan accounts on the Karmapa bunfight. As the contributors appear to be well-informed, would it be possible for some of you to shed some light (NPOV, of course) on these machinations involving Beru Khyentse, his supporters, adversaries and the whole Antipodean circus? Perhaps it could be given a separate heading. All I've gleaned is from the Web, here's a link to a BK site which explains the state of play and the above letter: http://www.rigpedorje.com/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=10
thankyou
Angela
buddhagirl49@yahoo.com
203.214.21.195
07:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't remember the source (somewhere on the internet), but I believe that Beru Khyentse's position is that he accepts both candidates. When Thaye Dorje came to Bodhgaya (I think) Behru Khyentse invited him to stay at his monastery. This offended the Orgyen Thinley camp so that they shunned B.K.R. B.K.R. insists that Orgyen Thinley is also welcome at his monastery but the offer has so far not been accepted.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.172.93.217 ( talk) 01:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
when Beru Khyentse came to France in 2003(?) he visited Dhagpo Kagyü Ling. A disciple of him and Ogyen Trinle told me, that the campp of Ogyen Trinle put a lot of pressure against him, as he visited Dhagpo... They wouldn't invite him anymore. Sad story . The link doesn't work. here's another with Beru's letter from 2003: https://karmapaissue.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/beru-khyentse-letter-2003.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeshe108 ( talk • contribs) 00:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I will remove the interpretation of A Song on the website. Reason: Not even the followers of Ogyen Trinle - as Thrangu Rp on the official website of Ogyen Trinle, doubts that the vajra song predicts the 16th Karmapa's flight, not the 17th's: Footnote annotations by Ven. Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche [4] Here the Karmapa is clearly predicting the future flight of the Tibetans to India. see: http://kagyuoffice.org/traditional-materials-on-recognition-of-the-17th-karmapa/a-song/
another follower of Ogyen Trinle, lama Puntsok:
"The metaphor in The Song, “the vulture soars into the expanse of the sky,” points to the fact that Situ Pema Wangchuk would die soon. His Holiness furthermore prophesied that he and his people - all monks, nuns, and lay practitioners – would be robbed of their freedom in Tibet, would have to leave their homeland and flee the only possible way, which would be to East India and Sikkim. The prophecy came true. Tibet was robbed of its independence in 1959 and His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, His Holiness the Karmapa, and many, many Tibetan Lamas were forced to flee from their own country. They were generously offered asylum in India as well as in the adjoining Himalayan Kingdoms."
About the creative way kagyuoffice deals with prophecies: https://karmapaissue.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/a-closer-look-at-the-creative-way-kagyuoffice-interprets-prophecies/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeshe108 ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
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Вопрос был решен между Кармапами в 2017 году. Так же они достигли консенсуса и в отношении поиска перерождения 15го Шамарпы — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.191.153.155 ( talk) 11:20, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Hellow my wiki friends. I added a reference to the Karmapa's first meeting, and added the topic of their 2020 meeting, "to move beyond politics and work together to recognize the next Shamarpa" Badabara ( talk) 19:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
I have not read all the references, but have tried to edit the brief reviews given to be NPOV and indicate which claimant each book supports, or is associated. Please check if you know the books better, but please do not make POV comments based on your own opinion of the controversy. Billlion 18:30, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I think, that the references should be categorized to "Thaye Dorje side", "Urgyen Trinley Dorje side" and "Neutral" references. Raphael Wegmann, 17.6.2005
Hi Billion, whoever you are. When I have made changes, than to come to the historical facts. NPOV does not mean in this case, that we are discussion the question of having a pope and a anti-pope. In our case there is a truth, and this is known. This should be the result of NPOV! Fernando
There is more than one Jigme Rinpoche, although it seems that the easiest one to find through Google (born in 1949 IIRC) is the one meant in the current version of the article. Even so, some effort to disambig it further is welcome. Luis Dantas 01:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Hi Luis, it is indeed, as referred to in the article in the same sentence, the brother of Shamar Rinpoche, so there should not be more questions. Fernando Schlottmann 31 October 2005
User:Pasdecomplot changed first paragraph from: "The recognition of the Seventeenth Karmapa, the head of the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, has been the subject of controversy."
To: "The recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the Seventeenth Karmapa, the head of the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, has been accepted by Tibetan buddhists and the Karma Kagyu school."
This latest change by User:Pasdecomplot contradicts what a reader would logically conclude from reading this page, which is that this controversy is very much an open topic--not a closed one. Badabara ( talk) 04:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Gosh, I guess the subject of Tibetan buddhism, the process of recognition, the bigger issue of religious freedom, and the RS supporting these issues is not understood Thehittite and Badabara. In the first lines, the article fails to introduce the overall subject, the correct sequence of events, and fails to present an understanding of the process of recognition. I attempted to correct these errors. FYI, Within wiki pages, there are two similar and serious historical conflicts that have been somehow classified as "controversy", a word which implies equal weight should given to both sides, as in a disagreement, a simple spat, a she said-he said. A conflict is a more appropriate term for both the Karmapa and Panchen Lama titles, since what RS evidences is Tibetan Buddhism is actually being assaulted through the promotion of people not recognized through the historical and authentic processes. The changes I made further addressed these errors. Not disruptive, except to the incorrect reporting of historical events. Comfy Retiree I also found OR in the Karmapa conflict which then supported an incorrect summation of events. Shall I list these for you all, so we can make the necessary changes? Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 21:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Please respond Badabara and Comfy Retiree and The hittite to these comments by me and by Let's Talk. Again, you all as a group are supporting an incorrect summation of events, OR, which creates a misleading article. Where did your group come from and why is the correct sequence of events considered as disruptive? Hum? Pasdecomplot ( talk) 08:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Objective descriptions are not difficult when RS is located, examined, and the subject is understood. It appears the non-NPOV approaching OR in the intro, and in the follow sections, is asking for forgiveness: "It is difficult to produce an objective description of the events because the most important developments are known only from conflicting accounts by those involved." Huh? "Important developments" are covered in reliable sources=RS; "are known" is an odd phrase for reading/analyzing info in RS; "conflicting accounts by those involved" doesn't sound like RS. There are many brilliant sources truly specializing in Tibetan buddhism and the Kagyu school, but Geoffrey Samuels' (working out of the questionable Cardifff U in UK's Wales) quotation is the sole source cited. The entire paragraph asking for forgiveness should be deleted. I think it was, then incorrectly reverted. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the joint statement is a very important development Badabara. It would be appropriate to include its mention in the intro. I'll include it in the earlier topic. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 11:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Cardiff U, ranked in the top 400-500 universities in the world, where faculty have committed suicide and the admin is charged with curtailing freedom of speech... Badabara Geoffrey Samuels is an expert in exactly which field? Is the quotation acceptable RS? Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:17, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
There is an incorrect summation of the events in the intro, and in other sections, together which create non-NPOV approaching OR. The 'controversy' began AFTER Orgen Trinley Dorje was located, recognized, and enthroned. The article states two contenders have been put forward "since" the passing of the 16th Karmapa. This is incorrect. Two years after OTD's enthronement is when the 'controversy' began. This is an important distinction in the article, a RS-supported fact. It needs to be re-added; facts are not disruptive; blocking the inclusion of facts into an encyclopedic article is, obviously, disruptive. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 16:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Example 1:"Since the death of the sixteenth Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje, in 1981, two candidates have been put forward:"... This is incorrect & needs to be changed. The reverted edit was good; another draft option is, "After the death...., Orgyen Trinley Dorje was located, recognized by Tai Situ and the Dalai Lama, then in [19__] enthroned in Tibet. Two years later, Trinley Thaye Dorje was recognized and enthroned in India by [Shamar Rinpoche]." This is correct, and an appropriate intro to the article. The details can be provided in the following sections Badabara.
Ogyen Trinley Dorje (also spelled Urgyen Trinley Dorje, born 1985) and Trinley Thaye Dorje (born 1983)."
Both have already been enthroned as 17th Karmapa, and both independently have been performing ceremonial duties in the role of a Karmapa" Pasdecomplot ( talk) 16:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Example 2: The lumping together of both effectively reinterprets the 'controversy', which approaches OR Badabara. The enthronment of OTD occurred at the Karmapa's traditional monastery in Tibet, authorized by many spiritual leaders and attended by the Karmapa's sangha. TTD was enthroned in India, 2 years later, not in Tibet (Karmapa's seat) nor in Sikkim (16th Karmapa's seat after escaping from the Chinese). Likewise, OTD's ceremonial duties were/are performed at the seat until his escape from the Chinese in 2000; his seat in exile is/was near Dharamshala, (where his movements were again restricted). TTD's ceremonial duties are not performed at either seat, but at another monastery. These facts together make lumping nonsensical, contrary to RS, an uninformed simplification of complex issues, and non-NPOV bordering on OR. Thus, the entire lumping section should be deleted. It was deleted, then incorrectly reverted. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
SHARMAPA : the key points in RS appear to be : he was 1 of 4 regents in the search = customary; I read he secretly searched (no RS) for TTD in 1988, but didn't bring him forward as the Karmapa (normally, a recognized tulku is quickly enthroned - and nothing happened with TTD, if the 1988 search happened. why not openly search? why not recognize - unless there's a problem?); he refused to meet with regents in MAR1992 to review prediction letter (strange); in APR he left his post (not normal) after Jamyong Kongtrul died in mysterious accident (RS says Indian govt didn't investigate); in JUN he brings armed Indian army into monastery (totally unheard of) after OTD was confirmed; he wrote 2 letters rescinding his demand for forensics on prediction letter (letter located OTD); he splits with regents and sangha to later enthrone TTD without prediction documents (why not build consensus? the kongtrul lineage has different tulkus that embody different qualities of their reincarnation, but even this wasn't arrived at by consensus); I can't find specific dates/info/RS on TTD escape and enthronement; and, he mentions his fear of Indian government for not meeting OTD in Delhi. So, IMO, maybe his fear is what unhinged him. He was also the 1st Sharmapa to be recognized after a ban - but, Sharmapa pattern of creating dissent reappears with the Karmapa. I learned these points just within the last few days. RUMTEK & TSURPHU : Yes, Tsurphu is the main seat. In Rumtek monastery, story is it had already been a seat but was destroyed. 16th Karmapa rebuilt it as a seat in exile = two effective seats, I analysed. We definitely can change the words, but it's good to introduce both monasteries briefly but accurately in intro since the enthronement and present legal battles revolve around these seats and lineage holdings. NEUTRALITY So, I haven't read the re-edits, and the facts behind the RS reflect that the controversy openly began in 1994 - after a 2nd Karmapa was enthroned. Just a fact, not siding one way or the other. If a 2nd Karmapa had not been enthroned, there would be no controversy. That would be the NPOV. FOLLOWERS or issue of majority=OTD and minority=TTD seems to be an undisputed fact. If need be, we can break out these POINTS into different topics. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 14:09, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
I would considering moving the Recognition of the Karmapa under Background to the main Karmapa page because how each of Karmapas have been recognized over 900 years is not limited to the very recent controversy regarding the recognition of the current 17th Karmapa. A brief summary, perhaps specifically focusing on the controversial recognitions, would be more fitting. There is already plenty of detail (i.e. too much info) on this page, so anything to make it more concise is worth considering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk • contribs) 23:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to remove the "Circumstances leading to candidacy" section. It's an inaccurate title, and a brief background on both candidates doesn't add any valuable or additional context to the controversy, which is the subject of this page. There's already too much detail, and it's better just to dive right into the subject at hand. Both candidates already have detailed bios on their own page that readers can easily find. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 18:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm looking at splitting out the "Split recognition of the current Karmapa" section to first focus on the historical aspect of the spiritual "recognition" that occurred in the early 1990s that flows with the story (for the reader) followed later a section of who accepted this spiritual recognition and who accepts each candidate now.
The epitome of the confusion around support is is Beru Khyentse, who held a unique view that both candidates could be authentic, but now we find him more "attached" to Trinley Thaye Dorje. His son is the fourth incarnation of Jamgon Kontrol (within Thaye Dorje's lineage; a separate candidate resides within Orgyen Trinley's lineage) and is actually the second-ranking lineage holder in Thaye Dorje's lineage:
The page also needs to demonstrate the fact that the split did not just affect the Karmapa title, but every new incarnation since that time (e.g. Jamgon Kontrul, Kalu Rinpoche) has two candidates. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 20:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I believe it's difficult for an an average reader with no background to easily glean the history and current state of this topic. The overall state of the page starts with the lack of subsections and insistence on large blocks of text.
It would be more effective to break down each candidate's "case" and include "Circumstances leading to candidacy" as a leading subsection--have two separate set of verifiable assertions (i.e. references) that can live distinctly and be continually to be edited to get us towards completeness rather than quibbling over minor edits.
I'm also surprised that the subsection for "Trinley Thaye Dorje" literally has no references ([according to whom?])--it's like one big block of someone's stream of consciousness. There are plenty of resources, namely books, that could be used to fortify the information in that section, and I'm surprised that it's survived the editorial process thus far.
The awkwardness starts with the opening sentence, and I was interested in first contributing by tightening the overall language and basic organization of the page before adding or removing any information.
Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 21:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I reworked the introduction so it truly fulfills its purpose and the reader doesn't suddenly get lost in minute, context-less detail--those bits will need to be pushed into existing and new sections moving forward. The point here is to give the reader a true overview and consider that they only thing they may read is the intro. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 23:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
I've begun a restructuring of the page that should make it easier for an un-initiated reader to follow. I re-jiggered the existing sections and renamed some section titles--however further structure changes and additional sub-sections are to come. No major content changes yet but the page needs clearer and more concise language, a more logical flow and more references (and convoluted text moved from the wiki page and into references as quotes). The next step will be split out the points of contention one by one--prediction letter, authority to recognize Karmapa, and events leading up to and following recognition. There are two sets of actors, two stories and two interpretations of the events that readers need to be stepped through. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 05:07, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
In @ Anotherpinkfloydinthewall's new and unnecessarily repetitive section of Cases for... there isn't RS which actually supports TTD. Haven't found RS that even says TTD was named or identified in 1992, so the rescinded handwriting analysis request doesn't actually support him. It only reads like more opinionated POV. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 00:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Anotherpinkfloydinthewall Been pinging you. You gotta stop editing and deleting from a non-NPOV. You were pinged last night but continued editing and deleting today: "unjust" isn't in RS; "claim" vs "maintain" shows bias; the sequence of events directly before OTD was located provided balanced RS on Sharmapa, but is completely deleted from opening and subsections; deletions of other important details unbalances article; removal of most internet-based RS in favor of books is quite curious, since no one else can check RS. The excerpts aren't enough for fact checking, and most books are either balanced in favor of one or the other, a point which you make. This article needs to provide details and balance, RS, and not become a white wash for TTD and Sharmapa. Which is what it is now. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot 12:36 27 August 2020 (UTC)
The deleted RS have just been re-added (good to see the RS from their 2018/19 meetings weren't deleted), but just volunteering here, and taking the time to repair your deletions and POV. No worries. (Btw, threatening a block is not civil behavior, especially if you're not an administrator. Also, gotta ask: you do know what a 'pink floyd' is, correct?) Pasdecomplot 16:16 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I think for the most part the re-structuring can be used to achieve NPOV, though some sections look well rounded, and others are in need of development. Also, unresolved editor disputes behind the scenes show in the page and need to be cleaned up. Final outcome should be cohesive story that doesn't require in-depth knowledge of Tibetan politics. This page doesn't need to be difficult. Pasdecomplot I like the intro you and I worked towards more. Badabara ( talk) 02:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi @ Badabara. I've been working to the same goal, but focusing on the content after the opening. Addressed obvious issues, shifted repetitive info into same sections, added lots of RS. Found huge gaps of info in Recent Developments and filled them. Edited out POV from section titles where problematic but there's some awkwardness since the structure is awkward in these instances. Sections of Points for TTD and TTD versus need editing and info. Take a look, work in progress. Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 12:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot ( talk) 08:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
<------ Hi @ Badabara Please read WP:PA for comments here (stick to the content and avoid personal attacks) and WP:HA for nitpicking comments on Tibetan Buddhism (I asked in writing if there was agreement-thus, the allegation above is mischaracterization), and for comments here.
WP:RF This page in general needs to be simplified for readers. It goes too much into details that may seem "important to proving" one side is right over the other. However this page isn't about taking sides. Our goal is to give the reader an understanding of the controversy, and have a snap-shot of both sides and histories. There doesn't need to be in depth back and forth or an attempt to tell the story in full. For that, one can find many books on the subject. The controversy itself is also possibly over, as the two Karmapas have agreed to settle differences and work together to find the next Shamar Rinpoche incarnation. I'd like to see some of the fat trimmed - especially where there is repeated information, and also words with emotional or heated value. I will do this in small edits, and describe each edit. Please revert specific edits if you see I made a mistake or took out information that is important or key to the issue. I'd like help, feedback and assistance. Badabara ( talk) 04:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
This section has no sources cited and appears to be outdated, as it refers to Trinley Thaye Dorje "at present" studying under the guidance of Shamar Rinpoche. Shamar Rinpoche died in 2014. This section is in need of work. Badabara ( talk) 05:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The Buktham Letter is found 6 times in the page. Certainly it's an important facet of the Karmapa controversy, but I'm wondering if it's perhaps overly referred to. Any thoughts? Badabara ( talk) 05:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Recent developments show the two Karmapas have met. Shamar Rinpoche helped OTD obtain his paperwork to get to the US, and they met together. Shamar Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama met as well. It seems those involved at the top are amicable and issue statements that despite the complexity of the situation (Tibetan, Indian and Chinese politics) there is confidence there will be a solution that is beneficial for all. For this reason, I think this page will eventually do well to expand recent developments and trim down history to key points. Of course I mean over the years..... What do you all think? Badabara ( talk) 05:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Strangely the section "Points for Trinley Thaye Dorje" has no content. Certainly there should be a few paragraphs or bullet points here. Badabara ( talk) 05:09, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Wondering if it's possible to combine some of the categories to reduce repetition. The subject matter and history is complex, but a brief introduction to the subject does not need to be. Badabara ( talk) 06:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Welcome to those who are interesd in the Karmapa controversy especially if you are new to wikipedia. Please remember to strive for a Neutral Point of View, and that we are writing an encylopedia (see What Wikipedia is not). Also please remember to put comments in the Edit summary box so others can see what you have done, and to use this discussion page especially to discuss things on the page you disagree with so that we can try to reach a consensus. Also there have been lots of anonymous edits to this page, and it would be really nice if some of you created an account so we could get to know you better, and see who writes what. Billlion 21:12, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi Skyerise I noticed you deleted the section regarding the joint statement. Was the deletion simply because it wasn't a secondary source (primary research)? Or was there a different reason?
Just want to make sure we're on the same page, before I add the section using secondary sources. Badabara ( talk) 22:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)