This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article contained a fair amount of nonsense, and hardly anything is sourced. For the monent I've altered it to agree with Theravada doctrine, except where it specifically refers to Mahayana. I hope people who know about other schools can note any differences. Peter jackson 14:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
karma-Buddhism Yahoo Group with researched posts Dhammapal 12:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm note sure how the following quote from the page makes sense: "In Buddhism, Karma is simply there as a guide and an indication of what the reason for your present state is and how one's future can be made better by self effort. Fatalism and pre-determinism is the anti-thesis of the notion of perfection or self-conquest -- which is the primary aim of Buddhism." In particular, Buddhism never advocates any "self effort" as there is no "self" to excert the effort, and an enlightened being only observes (hence, generating no karma). There are no goals of "perfection or self-conquest" in Buddhism, only the idea of realizing the truth (since an elightened being has no clinging, it can't possibly have goals). It seems as the entire passage is wrong, but I don't feel I have sufficient knowledge to modify the article.
I'm not sure that the revisions improve the article. This article lacks citations for assertions such as Karma only refers to "cause" -- and this is important because if you look at the way Karma is generally used everywhere, nobody uses such a definition in practice. This might be a place where one should talk about the different views of Karma within Buddhism rather than adding a sectarian view and not citing the source other than a personality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.74.203 ( talk) 00:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
someone needs to explain the meaning of "arhaticide" please. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.114.107 ( talk) 21:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
This sutta is given as a source for a claim which is controversial in some circles about whether or not karma is the supreme natural law. The Theravada position seems to be that it is just one of several laws, but I'm trying to clarify my understanding. However, I can't find this sutta online; or else I did find it but didn't see how it supported the claim -- see http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/011-phasuviharavaggo-e.html linked from http://www.suttacentral.net/disp_sutta.php?subdivision_id=63&subdivision_name=Pañcaka%20Nipāta&collection_name=Pali&division=AN&acronym=5&type=Subdivision Paxfeline ( talk) 07:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
In the section on "Karmic action & karmic results vs. general causes and general results", we find the following text: "The theory of karma is not deterministic, in part because past karma is not viewed as the only causal mechanism causing the present. In the case of diseases, for instance, he gives a list of other causes which may result in disease in addition to karma (AN.5.110)"
This reasoning is fallacious. If a given type of event can be brought about by multiple types of causes, it doesn't either: A) Imply that causation by a given type of cause (here, karma) is non-deterministic (i.e. that that type of cause "could have" failed to bring about that effect in any given case), or B) That there is not deterministic causation by the whole list of possible types of causes.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here whereby "the doctrine of karma is deterministic" is confused with "the doctrine of karma holds that karma is the only type of cause." I'm not expert enough to correct this confidently, but I would be pleased if someone who was took care of this. Human fella ( talk) 07:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I reverted these because reliably sourced sections were deleted and too many tags were added to what are clearly reliable sources. You may not agree with David Loy (and I myself don't), but he is an academic who is published widely and his opinions are valid in the section. Sylvain1972 ( talk) 14:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
A few notes on my edits:
Anyhow, I don't know if there is anything else you disagreed with, but that's because you didn't say what you disagreed with and why. If you have any other problems, please let me know, and we'll discuss them. -- Jrtayloriv ( talk) 15:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
This article is amazingly thorough. Perhaps we should aim to get some recognition for this. Credit goes mostly to Sylvain! Mitsube ( talk) 05:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
The article, directly under the Mahayana heading, contains this quote without any context:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu, a Theravādin monk, speculates that the development of the karma doctrine in the direction of determinism necessitated the development of the Mahāyāna concepts of Buddha-nature and savior Buddhas (see Pure land):
[I]n later centuries, when the principle of freedom was
forgotten ... Past bad kamma was seen as so totally deterministic that there seemed no way around it unless you assumed either an innate Buddha in the mind that could overpower it, or an external Buddha who would save you from it.
- Thanissaro Bhikkhu, "Freedom from Buddha-nature", page 4. Available online: [3].
Now, I do not know exactly why Thanissaro Bhikkhu is being used as an expert on Mahayana, because he is certainly not a specialist in this area. He is widely respected in Theravada Buddhism, but there should be no illusions that he is NPOV regarding Mahayana. His writings often contain tinges of spite and derision regarding Mahayana or bodhisattvas, or subtle attempts to write them off as being spurious inventions. In this case, Mahayana belongs to the dark "later days" of Indian Buddhism when "freedom" had been forgotten, and all the ignorant Buddhists could do was cling to nonsensical whims about savior buddhas. Frankly, this sort of quote isn't even on the NPOV radar, so I have removed it from the article. Tengu800 ( talk) 00:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I can´t find this sutta online. Can you please offer a link or cite the original (English) quotation? Actually I am not sure if it is a good thing to cite this specific sutta at all. I think it is too fatalistic for an introductory text to karma without further explanation. Pilgrim72 ( talk) 12:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
This does not seem to be a correct reference to sutta 3 in the Digha Nikaya (DN). In a commonly used English translation (Maurice Walshe) there is no subsection 217 to DN 3. Konetidy ( talk) 17:36, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
The question of the Holocaust also occurs in the Jew in the Lotus: A Poet's Re-Discovery of Jewish Identity in Buddhist India, which describes a group of Jewish religious leaders who meet with the Dalai Lama. They ask one of the Dalai Lama's party, a Buddhist scholar named Geshe Sonam Rinchen, if the Holocaust would be attributed to past karma in the traditional Buddhist view, and he affirms that it would. The author is "shocked and a little outraged," because, like Loy, he felt it "sounded like blaming the victim."[125]
I don't dispute the source of the above, but OTOH it doesn't suggest that there was any opportunity for a rejoinder either. I have no published source, but oral explanations from teachers of the same lineages as Geshe Sonam Rinchen have repeatedly clarified this issue as follows:
There are also all sorts of other problems about using terms like 'victim blame' - the notion of blame is not present in Buddhism, in that the agent of one's actions is not the person, but the intentions arising in a mental continuum. Instead we are, as Dennett (1992) puts it, “centers of narrative gravity.” That is not to say that persons or their actions do not exist, but rather to say that our mode of existence is merely conventional, merely imputed. (For more on this see Garfield 2006 and Newland 2009). If we are to ascribe agency and responsibility (notions that underpin the idea of both 'victim' and 'blame') then we will be ascribing agency and responsibility to the nominal entity of 'person' only.
Moreover, and this is probably the most central issue in terms of the purpose of Karma in Buddhism, is that it is used as a didactic methodology for establishing a strong grounding in responsibility for one's actions, and it most emphatically is not used for explaining historic events. The entire emphasis of Karma within Buddhism is the inevitability of consequences to one's actions. ( 20040302 ( talk) 11:36, 26 September 2013 (UTC))
Perhaps some of the experts who wrote this article might like to look over the main Karma article? I've tagged it as "needs attention of expert" because it says many things that are not in accord with Buddhist ideas of karma.
First, a minor point, the Karma#Buddhism section says "Most types of karmas, with good or bad results, will keep one within the wheel of saṃsāra, while others will liberate one to nirvāna" - do any Buddhists say this? I thought that nirvana was liberation from cycles of karma - how can karma liberate you from karma?
Then the Karma#Corollaries_and_controversies section attributes difficulties to Buddhist ideas of karma making many false assumptions about what those ideas are.
I don't feel able to correct the article myself. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 17:11, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
This presentation of karma looks accurate, but I have not yet found any sources that present karma in the same manner, using similar language. So I am storing this text here so that we can research and determine the source for this presentation--specifically the presentation of karma as "within the group or groups of cause in the chain of cause and effect". I think this explanation is explaining karma with the context of the twelve links, which is important to note, but it is a somewhat advanced explanation, and not how karma is typically presented to beginners.
First, thanks so much, Dorje108, for fixing the Karma article.
Just to say - this isn't directly to do with this article like the Karma article, just a mention in the intro. Also, like karma, it is a word that's easily misunderstood by Westerners, and has different shades of interpretation in Buddhism.
So anyway - just drawing attention in case anyone wants to take a look at it. The Omniscience#Omniscience_in_Buddhist_India section is highly technical (I haven't much idea what it is about myself). And I think there are useful things that could be said there to introduce the Buddhist idea of omniscience and especially its special characteristics compared with Western ideas.
See Talk:Omniscience#Omniscience_in_Buddhism_-_needs_more_work. Though once again I don't feel at all qualified to do that myself.
So - I just wondered if you Dorje108 or anyone else would like to have a look at it also.
Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 15:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I've moved (...) "Transfer of merit" to Merit (Buddhism). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
This article contains the same mass of popular notions as does/did the article on the four truths. Not "action", but "intention" is central to the Buddhist notion of karma. The emphasis on "action" is the Jain/Hindu understanding. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
10:22, 25 November 2014 compared to 23:31, 3 November 2014
Best regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Karma_in_Buddhism&diff=635624203&oldid=632340477
I'm sorry for the effort which was invested in collcting all those quotes - but it was really unreadable, and not encyclopedic. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 22:12, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Jonathan, just to be sure that I understand your position correctly, are you asserting that texts by Buddhist writers and teachers (who do not have Western academic training) should be considered primary sources? Dorje108 17:53, 30 November 2014 (previously unsigned cmt)
Improve pages wherever you can, and do not worry about leaving them imperfect. Preserve the value that others add, even if they "did it wrong" (try to fix it rather than delete it).
see: Wikipedia:Editing policy
Robert Walker ( talk) 17:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I understand that this page is currently going through an agonizing process of consensus making. Still, I would like to divert the attention of the editors involved and point to a view regarding early Buddhism where karma and rebirth is thought to have not existed, and that these concepts were later day introduction. Here is an article which discusses this view point. The fact that it is quite old (from 1966) might mean that there are other such articles out there. But then, it might also be a fringe view. Peace. Manoguru ( talk) 06:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Stop filling the articles with non-academic material. VictoriaGrayson Talk 20:36, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
"Bhikshus, intention is kamma, I say! Having intended, one creates karma through body, through speech, and through the mind"
This famous statement is often misunderstood. "The Buddha's utterance does not establish a mathematical equivalence between cetanaa [volition] and kamma, such that every instance of volition must be considered kamma. As the second part of his statement shows, his words mean that cetanaais the decisive factor in action, that which motivates action and confers upon action the ethical significance intrinsic to the idea of kamma. This implies that the ethical evaluation of a deed is to be based on the cetanaa from which it springs, so that a deed has no kammic efficacy apart from the cetanaa to which it gives expression. The statement does not imply that cetanaa[volition] (in the non-arahant) is always and invariably kamma."
Bodhi Bihikku, 1998, "A critical examination of Nanavira Thera's "A note on paticcasumuppada", Budhist studies review, 1998.
"The basic ideas is that kleshas ("disturbing emotions"), cetanā ("volition"), or taṇhā ("thirst", "craving") create impressions, tendencies or "seeds" in the mind. These impressions, or "seeds", will inevitably ripen into a future result or fruition"
Oh my, Robert: I took the patience to read through the first of your comments in this single thread. The crucial line is "
cetanaa is the decisive factor in action". I've added four words: "intentional actions, driven by". So the sentence now reads "The basic ideas is that intentional actions, driven by kleshas ("disturbing emotions"),[web 4] cetanā ("volition"),[3] or taṇhā ("thirst", "craving")[12] create impressions,[web 5][note 7] tendencies[web 5] or "seeds" in the mind." 5 references, one note. Do you really have to make so much fuzz? The valuable remarks get drowned in it; that's a pity.
The statement "The statement does not imply that
cetanaa[volition] (in the non-arahant) is always and invariably kamma" is the kind of statement on which the various traditions tend to disagree. I don't expect that kind of nuance from soemone like Piya Tan; "Free Booklets Series - Buddhism For The Millions" says it all. See also
[4]; the believers even disagree among themselves.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk! 08:02, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
"I have discussed in this book almost everything which is commonly accepted as the essential and fundamental teaching of Buddha. These are the doctrines of the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Five Aggregates, Karma, Rebirth, Conditioned Genesis (Paticcasamuppāda), the doctrine of No-Soul (Anatta), Satipatthāna (the Setting-up of Mindfulness)....
The term Theravāda-Hinayāna or 'Small Vehicle' is no longer used in informed circles- could be translated as 'the School of the Elders' (theras), and Mahāyāna as 'Great Vehicle'. They are used of the two main forms of Buddhism known in the world today. Theravāda, which is regarded as the original orthodox Buddhism, is followed in Ceylon, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, and Chittagong in East Pakistan. Mahāyāna, which developed relatively later, is followed in other Buddhist countries like China, Japan, Tibet, Mongolia, etc. There are certain differences, mainly with regard to some beliefs, practices and observances between these two schools, but on the most important teachings of the Buddha, such as those discussed here, Theravāda and Mahāyāna are unanimously agreed."
Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly. |
Hans Wolfgang Schumann (1997), Boeddhisme. Stichter, scholen, systemen (Buddhismus. Stifter, Schule und systeme (1973)), Uitgeverij Asoka, p.84:
In translation:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
The RfC by Dorje108 states that:
"I propose that texts written by Buddhist writers and teachers that explain basic Buddhist concepts should be considered secondary sources as long as they meet the criteria specified in the guidelines (regardless of whether or not the writer has Western academic training). Do you support this?"
Please see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Buddhism
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article contained a fair amount of nonsense, and hardly anything is sourced. For the monent I've altered it to agree with Theravada doctrine, except where it specifically refers to Mahayana. I hope people who know about other schools can note any differences. Peter jackson 14:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
karma-Buddhism Yahoo Group with researched posts Dhammapal 12:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm note sure how the following quote from the page makes sense: "In Buddhism, Karma is simply there as a guide and an indication of what the reason for your present state is and how one's future can be made better by self effort. Fatalism and pre-determinism is the anti-thesis of the notion of perfection or self-conquest -- which is the primary aim of Buddhism." In particular, Buddhism never advocates any "self effort" as there is no "self" to excert the effort, and an enlightened being only observes (hence, generating no karma). There are no goals of "perfection or self-conquest" in Buddhism, only the idea of realizing the truth (since an elightened being has no clinging, it can't possibly have goals). It seems as the entire passage is wrong, but I don't feel I have sufficient knowledge to modify the article.
I'm not sure that the revisions improve the article. This article lacks citations for assertions such as Karma only refers to "cause" -- and this is important because if you look at the way Karma is generally used everywhere, nobody uses such a definition in practice. This might be a place where one should talk about the different views of Karma within Buddhism rather than adding a sectarian view and not citing the source other than a personality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.74.203 ( talk) 00:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
someone needs to explain the meaning of "arhaticide" please. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.114.107 ( talk) 21:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
This sutta is given as a source for a claim which is controversial in some circles about whether or not karma is the supreme natural law. The Theravada position seems to be that it is just one of several laws, but I'm trying to clarify my understanding. However, I can't find this sutta online; or else I did find it but didn't see how it supported the claim -- see http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/011-phasuviharavaggo-e.html linked from http://www.suttacentral.net/disp_sutta.php?subdivision_id=63&subdivision_name=Pañcaka%20Nipāta&collection_name=Pali&division=AN&acronym=5&type=Subdivision Paxfeline ( talk) 07:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
In the section on "Karmic action & karmic results vs. general causes and general results", we find the following text: "The theory of karma is not deterministic, in part because past karma is not viewed as the only causal mechanism causing the present. In the case of diseases, for instance, he gives a list of other causes which may result in disease in addition to karma (AN.5.110)"
This reasoning is fallacious. If a given type of event can be brought about by multiple types of causes, it doesn't either: A) Imply that causation by a given type of cause (here, karma) is non-deterministic (i.e. that that type of cause "could have" failed to bring about that effect in any given case), or B) That there is not deterministic causation by the whole list of possible types of causes.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here whereby "the doctrine of karma is deterministic" is confused with "the doctrine of karma holds that karma is the only type of cause." I'm not expert enough to correct this confidently, but I would be pleased if someone who was took care of this. Human fella ( talk) 07:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I reverted these because reliably sourced sections were deleted and too many tags were added to what are clearly reliable sources. You may not agree with David Loy (and I myself don't), but he is an academic who is published widely and his opinions are valid in the section. Sylvain1972 ( talk) 14:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
A few notes on my edits:
Anyhow, I don't know if there is anything else you disagreed with, but that's because you didn't say what you disagreed with and why. If you have any other problems, please let me know, and we'll discuss them. -- Jrtayloriv ( talk) 15:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
This article is amazingly thorough. Perhaps we should aim to get some recognition for this. Credit goes mostly to Sylvain! Mitsube ( talk) 05:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
The article, directly under the Mahayana heading, contains this quote without any context:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu, a Theravādin monk, speculates that the development of the karma doctrine in the direction of determinism necessitated the development of the Mahāyāna concepts of Buddha-nature and savior Buddhas (see Pure land):
[I]n later centuries, when the principle of freedom was
forgotten ... Past bad kamma was seen as so totally deterministic that there seemed no way around it unless you assumed either an innate Buddha in the mind that could overpower it, or an external Buddha who would save you from it.
- Thanissaro Bhikkhu, "Freedom from Buddha-nature", page 4. Available online: [3].
Now, I do not know exactly why Thanissaro Bhikkhu is being used as an expert on Mahayana, because he is certainly not a specialist in this area. He is widely respected in Theravada Buddhism, but there should be no illusions that he is NPOV regarding Mahayana. His writings often contain tinges of spite and derision regarding Mahayana or bodhisattvas, or subtle attempts to write them off as being spurious inventions. In this case, Mahayana belongs to the dark "later days" of Indian Buddhism when "freedom" had been forgotten, and all the ignorant Buddhists could do was cling to nonsensical whims about savior buddhas. Frankly, this sort of quote isn't even on the NPOV radar, so I have removed it from the article. Tengu800 ( talk) 00:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I can´t find this sutta online. Can you please offer a link or cite the original (English) quotation? Actually I am not sure if it is a good thing to cite this specific sutta at all. I think it is too fatalistic for an introductory text to karma without further explanation. Pilgrim72 ( talk) 12:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
This does not seem to be a correct reference to sutta 3 in the Digha Nikaya (DN). In a commonly used English translation (Maurice Walshe) there is no subsection 217 to DN 3. Konetidy ( talk) 17:36, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
The question of the Holocaust also occurs in the Jew in the Lotus: A Poet's Re-Discovery of Jewish Identity in Buddhist India, which describes a group of Jewish religious leaders who meet with the Dalai Lama. They ask one of the Dalai Lama's party, a Buddhist scholar named Geshe Sonam Rinchen, if the Holocaust would be attributed to past karma in the traditional Buddhist view, and he affirms that it would. The author is "shocked and a little outraged," because, like Loy, he felt it "sounded like blaming the victim."[125]
I don't dispute the source of the above, but OTOH it doesn't suggest that there was any opportunity for a rejoinder either. I have no published source, but oral explanations from teachers of the same lineages as Geshe Sonam Rinchen have repeatedly clarified this issue as follows:
There are also all sorts of other problems about using terms like 'victim blame' - the notion of blame is not present in Buddhism, in that the agent of one's actions is not the person, but the intentions arising in a mental continuum. Instead we are, as Dennett (1992) puts it, “centers of narrative gravity.” That is not to say that persons or their actions do not exist, but rather to say that our mode of existence is merely conventional, merely imputed. (For more on this see Garfield 2006 and Newland 2009). If we are to ascribe agency and responsibility (notions that underpin the idea of both 'victim' and 'blame') then we will be ascribing agency and responsibility to the nominal entity of 'person' only.
Moreover, and this is probably the most central issue in terms of the purpose of Karma in Buddhism, is that it is used as a didactic methodology for establishing a strong grounding in responsibility for one's actions, and it most emphatically is not used for explaining historic events. The entire emphasis of Karma within Buddhism is the inevitability of consequences to one's actions. ( 20040302 ( talk) 11:36, 26 September 2013 (UTC))
Perhaps some of the experts who wrote this article might like to look over the main Karma article? I've tagged it as "needs attention of expert" because it says many things that are not in accord with Buddhist ideas of karma.
First, a minor point, the Karma#Buddhism section says "Most types of karmas, with good or bad results, will keep one within the wheel of saṃsāra, while others will liberate one to nirvāna" - do any Buddhists say this? I thought that nirvana was liberation from cycles of karma - how can karma liberate you from karma?
Then the Karma#Corollaries_and_controversies section attributes difficulties to Buddhist ideas of karma making many false assumptions about what those ideas are.
I don't feel able to correct the article myself. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 17:11, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
This presentation of karma looks accurate, but I have not yet found any sources that present karma in the same manner, using similar language. So I am storing this text here so that we can research and determine the source for this presentation--specifically the presentation of karma as "within the group or groups of cause in the chain of cause and effect". I think this explanation is explaining karma with the context of the twelve links, which is important to note, but it is a somewhat advanced explanation, and not how karma is typically presented to beginners.
First, thanks so much, Dorje108, for fixing the Karma article.
Just to say - this isn't directly to do with this article like the Karma article, just a mention in the intro. Also, like karma, it is a word that's easily misunderstood by Westerners, and has different shades of interpretation in Buddhism.
So anyway - just drawing attention in case anyone wants to take a look at it. The Omniscience#Omniscience_in_Buddhist_India section is highly technical (I haven't much idea what it is about myself). And I think there are useful things that could be said there to introduce the Buddhist idea of omniscience and especially its special characteristics compared with Western ideas.
See Talk:Omniscience#Omniscience_in_Buddhism_-_needs_more_work. Though once again I don't feel at all qualified to do that myself.
So - I just wondered if you Dorje108 or anyone else would like to have a look at it also.
Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 15:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I've moved (...) "Transfer of merit" to Merit (Buddhism). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
This article contains the same mass of popular notions as does/did the article on the four truths. Not "action", but "intention" is central to the Buddhist notion of karma. The emphasis on "action" is the Jain/Hindu understanding. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
10:22, 25 November 2014 compared to 23:31, 3 November 2014
Best regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Karma_in_Buddhism&diff=635624203&oldid=632340477
I'm sorry for the effort which was invested in collcting all those quotes - but it was really unreadable, and not encyclopedic. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 22:12, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Jonathan, just to be sure that I understand your position correctly, are you asserting that texts by Buddhist writers and teachers (who do not have Western academic training) should be considered primary sources? Dorje108 17:53, 30 November 2014 (previously unsigned cmt)
Improve pages wherever you can, and do not worry about leaving them imperfect. Preserve the value that others add, even if they "did it wrong" (try to fix it rather than delete it).
see: Wikipedia:Editing policy
Robert Walker ( talk) 17:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I understand that this page is currently going through an agonizing process of consensus making. Still, I would like to divert the attention of the editors involved and point to a view regarding early Buddhism where karma and rebirth is thought to have not existed, and that these concepts were later day introduction. Here is an article which discusses this view point. The fact that it is quite old (from 1966) might mean that there are other such articles out there. But then, it might also be a fringe view. Peace. Manoguru ( talk) 06:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Stop filling the articles with non-academic material. VictoriaGrayson Talk 20:36, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
"Bhikshus, intention is kamma, I say! Having intended, one creates karma through body, through speech, and through the mind"
This famous statement is often misunderstood. "The Buddha's utterance does not establish a mathematical equivalence between cetanaa [volition] and kamma, such that every instance of volition must be considered kamma. As the second part of his statement shows, his words mean that cetanaais the decisive factor in action, that which motivates action and confers upon action the ethical significance intrinsic to the idea of kamma. This implies that the ethical evaluation of a deed is to be based on the cetanaa from which it springs, so that a deed has no kammic efficacy apart from the cetanaa to which it gives expression. The statement does not imply that cetanaa[volition] (in the non-arahant) is always and invariably kamma."
Bodhi Bihikku, 1998, "A critical examination of Nanavira Thera's "A note on paticcasumuppada", Budhist studies review, 1998.
"The basic ideas is that kleshas ("disturbing emotions"), cetanā ("volition"), or taṇhā ("thirst", "craving") create impressions, tendencies or "seeds" in the mind. These impressions, or "seeds", will inevitably ripen into a future result or fruition"
Oh my, Robert: I took the patience to read through the first of your comments in this single thread. The crucial line is "
cetanaa is the decisive factor in action". I've added four words: "intentional actions, driven by". So the sentence now reads "The basic ideas is that intentional actions, driven by kleshas ("disturbing emotions"),[web 4] cetanā ("volition"),[3] or taṇhā ("thirst", "craving")[12] create impressions,[web 5][note 7] tendencies[web 5] or "seeds" in the mind." 5 references, one note. Do you really have to make so much fuzz? The valuable remarks get drowned in it; that's a pity.
The statement "The statement does not imply that
cetanaa[volition] (in the non-arahant) is always and invariably kamma" is the kind of statement on which the various traditions tend to disagree. I don't expect that kind of nuance from soemone like Piya Tan; "Free Booklets Series - Buddhism For The Millions" says it all. See also
[4]; the believers even disagree among themselves.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk! 08:02, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
"I have discussed in this book almost everything which is commonly accepted as the essential and fundamental teaching of Buddha. These are the doctrines of the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Five Aggregates, Karma, Rebirth, Conditioned Genesis (Paticcasamuppāda), the doctrine of No-Soul (Anatta), Satipatthāna (the Setting-up of Mindfulness)....
The term Theravāda-Hinayāna or 'Small Vehicle' is no longer used in informed circles- could be translated as 'the School of the Elders' (theras), and Mahāyāna as 'Great Vehicle'. They are used of the two main forms of Buddhism known in the world today. Theravāda, which is regarded as the original orthodox Buddhism, is followed in Ceylon, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, and Chittagong in East Pakistan. Mahāyāna, which developed relatively later, is followed in other Buddhist countries like China, Japan, Tibet, Mongolia, etc. There are certain differences, mainly with regard to some beliefs, practices and observances between these two schools, but on the most important teachings of the Buddha, such as those discussed here, Theravāda and Mahāyāna are unanimously agreed."
Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly. |
Hans Wolfgang Schumann (1997), Boeddhisme. Stichter, scholen, systemen (Buddhismus. Stifter, Schule und systeme (1973)), Uitgeverij Asoka, p.84:
In translation:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
The RfC by Dorje108 states that:
"I propose that texts written by Buddhist writers and teachers that explain basic Buddhist concepts should be considered secondary sources as long as they meet the criteria specified in the guidelines (regardless of whether or not the writer has Western academic training). Do you support this?"
Please see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Buddhism
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)