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With due respect to Hindus and Buddhists.
Should only Christians write about Angels, Devils, Heaven, etc. ? I'm sure there are Hindus, Buddhists who have written about these.
Should only Japanese write about Zen and Karate? Many Americans have written about Zen.
Angels, Devils, Heaven, Karma, etc. are ubiquitous , well known, universal concepts known all over the world, by the average man on the street and not limited to one religion, system of thought, etc.
A 'daemon' is a computer server. It is also a Greek concept meaning something like guarding spirit. Many Hindu programmers know the Greek concept as well. The best people to explain Greek concepts to Hindus are other Hindus (I think) already familiar with the concepts. e.g. a Hindu interpretation of 'Daemon' (with Hindu orientation). For this same line of thinking, there is a 'Western interpretation' with western orientation. Newbies to any system of thought, might get bogged down and confused with all other details and deep Hindu concepts. Intertwining creates confusion. Care must be given to make things easy to understand and familiarity with the orientation of the (Western, Christian, Muslim, etc. ) reader.-- Jondel 03:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The concept of Karma is also becoming more ubiquitous even in the Western (Christian) world. People for example attribute bad luck to 'Karma' for example. For some people (with western orientation) who can not accept suffering('ITS UNFAIR!' etc.. ) , the Karma concept offers a way of controlling destiny and becoming more responsible, I think. (It is fair. It was always fair. Your are responsible.)
BTW , I don't claim to be an authority on Western interpretation of Karma so in the same wikipedia spirit, anyone or everyone with authoritive or good sources are invited to contribute, edit and delete if need be.
Anyway, a Western interpretion or conceptualization of Karma is bound to come out .-- Jondel 01:24, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have added this article to Category:New religious movements, not because the concept itself is new (obviously), but because of the growing section in this article on its treatment by the new religious movements. -- Gary D 19:04, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Karma can become a very sophisticated , complicated subject.
However the concept satisfies a need to believe that
The Universe and Life is Just and Fire (in the light of injustice).
That we are in control and responsible for our circumstances.
That the Golden Rule(Reciprocity), Rules.--
Jondel 03:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's well-known that differing and 'evolving' (or rather diverging) opinions on the topic of Karma have emerged. But no one is restricting free interpretation of it. What the intention of categorizing these concepts is is to establish their original and standard associations. As an original concept, karma is first found in the Upanishads (Hindu tradition) and soon thereafter in Buddhism. These two religions, each millenia old, developed the concept and its existence today is grounded in Hinduism and Buddhism. If it is a valid and accepted part of "New Age" doctrine, then there is no restricting its inclusion in a New Age category. However the article will surely reflect "karma"s history as an Indian philosophical and religious concept and acknowledge much later trends, indeed trends that mark only at best 150 years of a nearly 3000 year span, later in the article with due space.
As for concepts of "karma" meaning bad-luck or Western misconceptions about the original idea: how a pure and neutral "cause-and-effect" reactionary framework of cosmic being devolved into 'bad luck' is interesting insofar as a footnote regarding erroneous modern usage is concerned. Large sections documenting misinterpretations of karma seem out-of-place. However, more on-the-ball comments on Theosophical or New-Age syncretistic traditions and how their use of Hindu and/or Buddhist philosophy affects people today and their view of karma seem appropriate. But then again, caution must be taken to represent karma faithfully as it is seen today: about 1.5 billion people (Hindus and Buddhists, also Sikhs and Jains) view it traditionally, retaining its original and non-radical evolution. The twisted ideas of Madonna-generation teens and how they see 'karma' meaning bad luck or a cool eastern word implying moral bank-credits from a Radiohead song are not primary references for the topic of karma, though I wouldn't object to brief mentions of it.
This leads me (a little out of order) to your paragraph on how "Care must be given to make things easy to understand and familiarity with the orientation of the (Western, Christian, Muslim, etc. ) reader." An encyclopaedia, and for that matter, any academic or scholarly dissertation/article on a given subject, attempts to present facts and reasonable consensus-understandings in an unbiased manner. Considerations of the reader's ethnicity, gender, or (a)-religious leaning factor in only inasmuch as one tries not to reveal one's own prejudices. To tailor a reading on karma to pinpoint the view of every religious or philosophical group in the world and its particular reaction to it would be an exercise in futility. This includes presenting it as the "Indian version" of the Golden rule. It includes a coherent and sophisticated system of ethics and spiritual ideas. Thus, one should present what karma is and weigh the distribution and presentation of thoughts according to its history. In this sense, it stands to reason that the Hindu and Buddhist stand, the two oldest and the progenitors of any modern non-Hindu-Buddhist understandings, would constitute most of the article. Would one rattle off an Indian philosophical rebuttal and/or reaction to Platonic ideas of "Forms" for half the Plato article? I think not. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 03:50, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
I see you are very erudite.
I respect the Hinduistic heiritage of Karma and I don't question your knowledge and don't advocate any deletions from the Hindu/Buddhist interpretions. No one questions that it is first found in the Upanishads. I understand the need for original and standard associations and it should be kept. I also agree that the Madonna generation teenagers are not authorities or good sources on Karma,.
Actually, the concept of Karma made me very happy when I had a spiritual search. Although I am Catholic in my upbringing.
Please consider the need.
Don't you think that Hinduists and Buddhists don't need this knowledge (unless it is as a reference)as much as those with out the same Indian orientation?
There will be many who will reach the limits of their faiths or system of beliefs and even crisis and will seek other justifications. Most would come from non-Indian orientations. For myself, it helped to explain suffering or injustice.
For example, many overtly Christians can not accept an eternal hell of Christianity and and this causes a lot of dilemnas and contradictions and confusion in the Christian faith. There are probably overt communists who want to believe there is a purpose to it all .
Much more suffering may also be caused by an improper understanding of Karma. (I hope I 'm not evangelizing here.) For example , Communists who say 'The end justifies the means'.
Even if it is a bit of an exercise in futility , please do try to make it it easier to understand for the Madonna generation teens, Atheists, Muslims, Christians and non-Hindus and non-Buddhist people. Who are you helping? Are you being relevant?
The more sophisticated and intertwining with other concepts the more confused the reader can become.
The concept is evolving but shouldn't really diverge. If the concept was totally erased from all human memory, it should emerge again like Mathematics, counting, etc.. Perhaps it should be studied more. But effort must be made to make it understandable and simple for all.
Within in the first 50 years of the the last century, Communism was believed in by more than one third of world because it's propagators made it easy to understand and believe in for the common man, pheasants, proletariats, etc... Karma as a concept is more reliable and enlightening than Communism. The end does not justify the means. Just as effort to make communism easy to understand for all. The concept of Karma shoul be made easy to understand and with orientations to the particular type of people.
I agree that the concept shouldn't come from but 'Madonna-generation' teens but it should be explainable in a language understood by them.
I don't want to tailor a reading on karma to pinpoint the view of every religious or philosophical group but a large portion of the world is Christian , Muslim and Atheist. I think it is not an exercise in futility if the a great portion of world is Christian , Muslim and atheist and as universal concept is explained in their 'language'. Intertwining Karma with other Hindu/ Buddhist/ Jainist concepts are likely to invite confusion and disinterest.
Really, many Indians, Hindus and Buddhistsdon't seem too be concerned about Platonic forms, etc. There is probably no need for an Indian interpretation for Platonic concepts, the 'Golden Rule 'etc.. On the other hand many Westerners are however are concerned with Karma as best as it can be understood, and believe it to be a real active operating principle and are investigating it as well as other oriental concepts to complement their (Christian, ) system of beliefs.
Who are you helping?
What do people really need to know?
Please be simple in explanation, and avoid intertwining with other Hindu concepts as it encourages confusion. I also advocate consensus-understandings in an unbiased manner. However, if I see a need or vacuum , I try tofill it.
-- Jondel 06:11, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I like the recent additions especially the ' spiritual physics of being' which expresses the principle very well. I hope Karma doesn't become an abstract concept with no relevance to day to day living.
I will to try conclude this discussion but still feel one last paragraph after the second in the introduction will satisfy my 'Western framework or interpretation' . Also we do have to cater to the lazy . (e.g. wiki - 'super fast' definition)
I can't help but target 'spiritually bankrupt' people because honestly , I 've had my own spiritual bankrupcy which conventional Christianity could not answer. I also hope it will discourage people from thingking 'The end justifies the means'.
Anyway, certain issues need to be addressed or else somebody will repeat this discussion ("Here we go again.").
I don't want the integrity of the definition sacrificed from its orignal context but would like very much to isolate it from other intertwining confusing Hindu concepts as much as possible. I do believe in Karma as an active operating principle like Mathematics and Gravity. Ignorance doesn't mean immunity. You get hurt by it. In this light, the concept shouldn't diverge much from its core definition.
I would like to insert a third paragraph in the introduction relating to the following themes.
The core elements which I believe (and propose)constitute Karma are: (They expanded on in Parabadha and Samchita sections) 1. Action and reaction (Yes , already defined in the article, I'm placing it here for reference) 2. Relations , Reciprocity in behaviour , human relations. Love and Hate. You attract the people you love and hate until the relationship energy is resolved. (Parabadha). 3. The individual is responsibe of his current and future situations . According to some Buddhists source even physical appearence and form. 4. Acts have far more reaching consequences than normally perceived which may extend beyond the individual's life. 5. Current abilities and talents are the result of Karma. DNA and genes only accomodate Karma. 6. (Sanchita, Samskara) One's personality and inclinations is determined by Karma.
I know, no one is restricting me. But anyone is welcome to add based on the themes above. The descriptions, which I will try to add, if possible should be brief, and with as little as possible reference to Hindu concepts. Such that a Catholic priest or Western teenager can refer to as if he were talking about Gravity.
I can't help but identify with Cayce since he had a very strong Christian foundation yet referred to Hindu Karma and Reincarnation. It bothered him as a Christian but had to reconcile both beliefs (or truths), with Christianity. The Cayce readings, however are very disorganized.
I don't mean to be myopic but pls, lets not be sarcastic. Also about Hindus and Plato. I don't mean that Hindus are not interested in Plato. But the interest in Karma is much greater for Westeners for Karma . A good working definition for daily use seems to be needed that can be readily understood by Westerners . (A 'wiki' super fast definition)
Let's keep the Avatar, Jesus and Krishna subjects out. They belong to another discussion.
Again the recent edits are good at the intro.
Karma and reincarnation were revelation for me and had a powerful impact that's why discuss this.
I believe I've said most of what I need to say (the core elements) and a Western framework which I feel the current paragraph and the one above will satisfy. So thanks for your and views for the time being. -- Jondel 08:22, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I appreciate your desire to be clear and discuss, and this is proving quite fruitive. But I fail to see why your insecurities about Karma being involved in other Hindu concepts should be catered to. We're not secularizing what began as a religious (and still is mostly) a religious topic. We're presenting it as it is. Recent Western interest doesn't change its background. For instance, the Hindu metaphysics involving yugas (ages), atman (soul) that reincarnates through multiple lives, the evolution of the soul, the possibility of transcendence through yoga, meditation, bhakti (devotion), these are all fundamental Hindu ideas in which karma grew up. We can't act as if it has nothing to do with each other! THat's just being silly and prejudiced.
As for Hindus, they have plenty of interest in Plato, moreso than Westerners being that Plato and Western philosophy is a standard part of Western education in Indian schools (which are largely English-medium) whereas karma is a marginalized "Southeastern religions" study course for Western colleges. And trust me, I should know, having been schooled in both India and America.
I appreciate desire for universalism, but karma is clearly too firmly rooted in Buddhism and Hinduism to dismiss the religious contexts in which it burgeoned. We can deal with syncretic Western (re)interpretations later in the article. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 19:09, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
I appreciate your efforts to keep the Karma definition firmly rooted in its Hindu and Buddhist framework and I think it should continue. Else the definition might evolve into something very different.
I will be confining my definitions/additions to the Western interpretation /framework section. That way, the Hindu/Buddhist framework is left intact.
I don't dispute that Hindu have plenty interest in Plato. Please don't misinterpret me. I think Karma studies shouldn't be marginalized.
The reason a 'secular' version is needed is , like all laws, ignorance doesn't grant immunity . You only get hurt. (Learn Karma the hardway). It is real (I believe).
Besides some people are adverse to 'religion'. What is seen as religion by one person can be an active real operating ('secular/scientific') principle to another.
Presenting with intertwining concepts or other Hindu concepts is like presenting Quantum Physics without going through Calculus, High School Physics, Math, etc..
I don't mean to be prejudiced in isolating a concept from other Hindu concepts but understanding comes in stages. I have no prejudice, in fact I am reading other Hindu material like Shankara, Patanjali, Yoga. (I can't help but reflect how these 'universal' principles operate within a Christian context. ) . BTW, the other wikipedia pages on the same are very enlightening and informative. [--No , I 'm not going to insist on simplifying or creating Western frameworks on those other pages. ] . I feel that a step by step approach is better.
Anyway, I edited/inserted a section (Health, Relationships, Abilities, Talents etc..)and made a few references to Hindu concept like Parabadha and Sanchita and inserted the core elements that I need to see. I hope it reflects Hindu and Buddhists concepts well but they are based on Cayce readings. I hope it will also be more relevant to a Western audience. I hope the definition does not diverge or evolve to something different. Unless the section I inserted is not agreeable to all, there is little for me to say. I'm signing out.
BTW, isn't Kismet an Arabic word? (Or Arabic world according to Wikipedia, somebody correct this(?).) Is this Sanskrit or a Hindu concept ?-- Jondel 06:44, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the burgeoning size of this section, particularly because a lot of it doesn't 1) seem appropriate and 2) present anything new. Some of the sections sound like moral apothegms and others represent certain ideas of 'collective karma' (and other such thoughts) as if they were established, brought to new light or revolutionized by Cayce (and new schools in the West), none of which things is true. Also, beyond these two problems, these sections are meant to be either brief elucidations of karma or mentions of influential systems utilizing karma; I understand Cayce and the supposedly 'new western' looks are ostensibly both of these, but in actuality neither is Cayce (or the West) so looming a figure nor the information and theories so original as to merit devouring half the article. I'm not going to excise any material that is not mentioned elsewhere, though the Cayce examples don't seem appropriate and at best should be featured on a separate 'Cayce' article; {with)in a week or so, I'll be trimming it down substantially.
I do not believe in Karma. Why? Think of all the children with cool and loving families (therefore fairly unlikely to commit "mortal sins") getting brutally raped and beaten to deaths due to racial/social class hate/vendetta. Think of the poor children in Sudan or Ethiopia starving to deaths whilst sick from AIDs. Karma tells me that all these children deserved to die horrific deaths because they have, or would all commit crimes in their lives had they lived. Karma tells me, Africa is a place of bad Karma, because it has so much suffering, and people are only Africans because they have bad Karma. I do not believe in this, and I do not want to believe that there are people who would believe in Karma based on these grounds. Please do prove my interpretation wrong. RZ heretic 01:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Why should we? This is NOT a forum!-- 81.164.134.236 08:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Good deeds bring good karma. In buddhism, there is no good or bad karma. Nothing is determined as good or bad. It's all up to how you interpret it. So it's just karma. Not good, not bad, just karma. Karma is everything that happens. Satanicbowlerhat 05:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Go to a Buddhist temple and ask a Buddhist monk about this. They have the authority to explain about karma in details in a way that truly impacts. Levin10 07:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a forum for discussing thoughts on the subject in the article — rather, the talk page's only purpose is to discuss changes made to the article. Belief in the subject of the article is irrelevant to the article's quality and therefore should not be discussed here. -- Jeames ( Talk to me!) 02:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I Think u got the day-to-day meaning of karma wrong.Karma tells that all these children had to die horrific deaths not because of what they would have done,but because of what they had done in their previous births.The concept of reincarnation is intrinsic to the concept of karma.The deepest meaning of what can be attributed to your argument is that,actually "nothing in this world is as is",ie there is no such thing as absolute enjoyment or bliss etc.It all depends on one's perception of a subject.A person in suffering,may feel dejected or sad,while another in the same pain,may think of it as a way of dissolving his karma.
AdamHolt 16:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC) You can also take the idea of karma, or cause and effect, on whatever level you wish. For example, you don't believe in karma, but nonetheless you react in certain ways based on this disbelief. Then, due to the way you act, you both have certain impressions planted in your mind, and also other people react to your actions- perhaps you're angry or something like that. Due to ignorance, you don't know all of the results of your actions, which then causes basically unwanted or unseen results, since you didn't see the full scope of each action. So, you don't have to think of Africa as having bad karma in the sense of necessarily evil karma or something like that, but that due to ignorance people may have gotten into situations where they raped others, beat them, etc, and due to not understanding that this does not just end there but has results, ended up being born in Africa under bad circumstances. Hopefully they will learn from it and not repeat the actions, and I don't really know that what I'm saying is 100% true, but nonetheless we all make causes of future results. And we don't always know, or at most rarely know, the full results of our actions.
I found the article sort of confusing. In the first paragraph, it says "Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward. Karma simply deals with what is," but throughout the article it talks about karma as being about these things: "In the popular American Series My name is Earl, Earl (played by Jason Lee) becomes the victim of karma but eventually realises that he must make up for all the bad things he's done in order to stop being punished." "Spirituality or a belief that virtue is rewarded and sin creates suffering eventually leads to a belief in Karma." "Some observers have compared the action of karma to Western notions of sin and judgment by God or gods, while others understand karma as an inherent principle of the universe without the intervention of any supernatural Being." et cetera
I understand that the concept is inherently confusing and that many different definitions exist, but I think that this is a pretty important point to address. Does karma contain moral judgement, or is it merely a causal explanation? In the idea of karma, is there some objective standard of moral behavior, or is the distinction entirely subjective, based on what the individual desires or doesn't (as is described in the "Karma on a practical level" section)?
NC/04.17.07 Karma - The Essence of the Law The Law of Karma is not so easy to grasp. The first thing to note about the law is that it rests upon the pillars of Causation. "It signifies that nothing can happen without a sufficient cause in the moral as in the physical world - that each life with all its pains and pleasures is the necessary result of the actions of past lives and becomes in turn the cause, through its own activities, of future births." In fact 'Karma'is nothing but a name given to this causal theory when practically aplied to the life of humans or other conscious beings. It has got nothing to do with virtue, sin, punishment or rewards. None would reward and punish until and unless 'I' myself would be there to execute an action. And once an action is executed the reaction takes its own course. Indian orthodox schools like the Samkhya and Mimangsa hold that this reaction being autonomous takes its own course, while others like the Nyaya and Vaiseshika maintain that Karma is unconcious and hence needs the guiding control of God. 'Karma', no doubt is subjective which is why it is roundly taken as the cycle of 'desire' and its consequent action. As the soul desires and acts it reaps the fruits of action and returns to this world for performing further actions.
There is a word "Karma", passed on from the past, but nowadays it is rare to find someone who knows correctly what Karma is. What do we call Karma and what is Karma ? Karma is something that exists in the source which moves oneself, lets have a look carefully how the Karma which is in the source, is made.
What is Karma ?
submitted by: Paul S
From karma:
"Life is a cycle of conceptual rebirths evident in what can be defined as consciousness. Far from being a strictly action/reaction agent, karma is at work during our physical lives albeit in an unfathomable manner at times (ie. great beings who suffer much)."
I think I actually agree with that. But I'm not sure. Can it be said any more clearly??
*Also* -- we need to phrase this in a neutral manner, not "X is", but "Some people think X is", or "X may be regarded as ..."
Thanks!!
I think the opening sentence puts karma in the context of Eastern religion; it's not necessary to pepper the entire article with "Some people think..." and "It is believed by some that...". Besides, that's just bad style. ;-) -- Stephen Gilbert
' Karma as a term is often misunderstood to mean specific accumulation of a sort of negative energy from misdeeds (compare with aspects of the Golden Rule). In fact, while karma includes this concept just because it includes the consequences of all human existence, it is really about accumulation of worldliness, in the sense of worldliness inhibiting spiritual passage. '
===Request: Explain Diff with Karma and Christian sin; and Karmic implications of Thoughts=== Somebody, please explain a difference in the concepts of Christian sin and karma. e.g. Something like sin deals with punishment and reward for good behaviour, etc. Also, Christianity does deal not much with thoughts. For example , is bad karma created by wrong thoughts, resentments, hate, etc.? Please place under the Christianity paragraph. Thanks Jondel 07:06, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)~~
We should only use the most specific pertinent categories; i.e., if Karma is a Hindu and Buddhist philosophical concept, it shouldn't also be categorized as "Hinduism" or "Buddhism". -- कुक्कुरोवाच| Talk‽ 20:24, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the burgeoning size of this section, particularly because a lot of it doesn't 1) seem appropriate and 2) present anything new. Some of the sections sound like moral apothegms and others represent certain ideas of 'collective karma' (and other such thoughts) as if they were established, brought to new light or revolutionized by Cayce (and new schools in the West), none of which things is true. Also, beyond these two problems, these sections are meant to be either brief elucidations of karma or mentions of influential systems utilizing karma; I understand Cayce and the supposedly 'new western' looks are ostensibly both of these, but in actuality neither is Cayce (or the West) so looming a figure nor the information and theories so original as to merit devouring half the article. I'm not going to excise any material that is not mentioned elsewhere, though the Cayce examples don't seem appropriate and at best should be featured on a separate 'Cayce' article; {with)in a week or so, I'll be trimming it down substantially.
So, anyone else bothered by the characterization of Newton's 3rd law as 'action is reaction'? A more proper statement of it is 'for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'. Stated this way it loses any real connection to karma and should be removed IMHO.
I like the concept of Karma. I makes me awake. I see myself quite smoking because I see the cause not the fun of smoking. I see the result of extreme pain and suffering.
I wrote a brief, very simple definition at the begining. The article is long and detailed, but someone simply wanting to know what karma stands for would have had a hard time. I am sure it will help the uninitiated. -- Subramanian 19:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I changed one sentence in the last paragraph to the section "Buddhism" in the hopes it more closley approximates the original author's intent. I guessed it was either vandalism or an unintentional scramble. Comments?
what is this supposed to mean?
Cynics tend to twist it around to "No good deed goes unpunished"
i needed to put that somewhere :) - and no, i'm not a cynic :P -- — Nate | Talk 13:04, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
24.155.158.226 17:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)Daniel
Umm... what's the deal with the Akashic Records/Karmic Lords foofawraw in the intro? I don't remember that coming up in any of my Asian religions classes.... — grant -- 15:19, 2 Sep 05 == == == == == == ==]]]]''
In one sense, there is a similarity. Both karma and the teaching of Jesus on what he calls “sin”—both include the idea that man can and does do things wrong and evil. That there is something wrong with the human race is somewhat included in both of these concepts. But the differences are great. The source of our problem and how to counteract it are very different in the teaching of Jesus. The Bible teaches that man lives once, and then after death there is judgment. Karma assumes many lifetimes in order to escape the cycle of birth and death and be freed from the web of Samsara. Jesus teaches that all men accrue a debt that comes from one life of deeds, motives, words, and thoughts that are bent or evil. In the teaching of Jesus, having more than one lifetime would only make the problem worse, the Visa debt would simply climb higher and higher. The solution to sin is also deeper in the Christian teaching, in that deeds and meditation are not acceptable balances to the problem. Jesus teaches that God is absolutely perfect and demands this from His creatures as well. Man cannot make up for evil deeds with good deeds, because the standard is not a balance of good and evil, but goodness and purity and perfection. The Visa bill that is due is not payable in money or in pilgrimages or good deeds: in fact it is the lack of the fullness of these in a complete way that brings the debt due. Jesus also reveals that God is compassionate and full of grace. The teaching and life of Jesus is that He came as God in the flesh, the only incarnation of God among men, and that He went to a cross intentionally-- to pay the debt for all the world’s sin. As the only perfect man, he was qualified to pay the debt. As God incarnate he has the full weight to pay for the sins of the entire world. The way of forgiveness is simply to address the Visa bills: “payable by Jesus.”
I am not here to Judge or think on behalf of God (thus creates cult) on the judgment of Hitler or the communist Doctor, The 'Karma' (Which associated with reincarnation) is no way related to bible or Christianity, I would like to remove the passage which reads "Parallels in Christianity" I am really not here to debate what is right and what is wrong, it is a blasphemy to say that bible supports eastern version of ‘Karma’
>it is a blasphemy to say that bible supports eastern version of ‘Karma’
As a Christian, I do believe in karma to an extent. Someone who claims to have received grace must strive to live a life worthy of that grace. James 2 tells us that faith without works is dead, and Galatians 6 assures us that, as a man sows, thus shall he reap.
Please remove the Christianity reference from this article as Christianity doesn't support Hindu version of 'Karma' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Karma2Grace ( talk • contribs) .
Christian teachings does not include the idea of Karma saying otherwise is simply ridiculing the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, Salvation in Christianity is purely by Grace
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast
Although some out of context parallels (in the article) made by 19th century eastern (cult) Gurus came to west to preach eastern views, those verses primarily teach, On Judgment day every one need pay the price for rejecting Christ
Karma is NOT a natural Law, Spiritism is NOT a sub branch of Christianity, Who ever believe in karma will better qualified as a Hindu than Christian
I would like to let it recorded here that I have added the following:
under the "Parallels in western religions" section just to try to conciliate things, but I don´t think this article is the proper place for such a paragraph. This is the Karma article, and the paragraph above simply studies christianity and grace. But for the sake of clarity, and peace, if it is needed, so be it. As for 20040302's comment on expanding the parallels so that it will not consider christianity alone, I fully agree, but I can´t write about any other western faith related to karma. Could people help? Does Sufism have any parallel, for instance? Subramanian talk 20:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. Karma2Grace has made this edit and I feel it´s rather agressive, redundant and derogatory to certain christian sects, but I think I have contributed already and I would prefer if someone else impartially analizes it. Could someone help? Thanks! Subramanian talk 20:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear Subramanian , I don't see any wrong or derogatory information provided in my change (If so pls point that out), I don't think a sect which belives in Reincarnation and Karma will be Christian (than Hindu), None of the main line christians will accept "spritists" as christians.-- Karma2Grace 20:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, people! Actually, Spiritism (also referred wrongly as "Kardecism"), which is a Christian religion, also states its opinion about karma. The doctrine says that karma exists, but it is not irreversible, as its subject can have its karma turned lighter or even be free of its expiation, according to his behaviour in the actual life. In the same way, it can be turned worse. Any comments about this, please write me a particular brief message. Rafael "Banzai" 22:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
To receive the Grace of God, I believe Christians need to have true faith and accept Jesus as their savior into their life. In addition, there are many more undertakings before they can truly consider themselves as Christians.
Through their sincere actions/intentions to want to receive God's grace, Christians have already generated in themselves a karma. This karmic action results in an effect - the down flow of God’s Grace to the persons concerned. As a result, the faithful Christians, following the teachings and abiding in the Truth are saved in the manner as described by the Bible scriptures. This is exactly what Karma for Christians is all about: the earnest and continual devotion to Jesus and God will bring forth the outcome: salvation. This is the Law of cause and effect. That is Karma. When your mind constantly turns inwards while you pray and rest in True Reality, you become one with Jesus and with God. Other faiths have different way to achieve unity consciousness. For example, the Hindus and Buddhists- they practise stillness of the mind to free themselves from the worldly attachments. This way they are in contact with the Voidness, the One, and the True Reality. Simply put, each religion has a different path to salvation. Ultimately, what truly counts is the earnest devotion of each and everyone to practise self-cultivation to achieve purity of the mind and heart: You will bear fruits through your devotion in prayers, through belief in Jesus, through acquiring the transcendental wisdom of Buddha, through meditation, through self-examination of transgressions and sincere repentance of sins, through chanting, through outpouring of loving-kindness, compassion and universal love, through helping your fellow beings, through being truthful and honest, through stillness etc. Those doings that come deep from your inner self are what really count because those actions and intentions are seeds that will bear fruits. The continual cultivation and purification of the heart and mind will lead one closer to spiritual realization and eternity. (e.g. emancipation from cycles of re-births for the Buddhists and attainment of Kingdom of Heaven for Christians etc) Self-cultivation is never a one-off thing and it requires continual devotion and practices. That way, our life becomes meaningful and our living purposeful. - John
I examined the former seven paragraphs of under the parallels section, and most of it has decayed into a discussion on the relative merits/demerits of faith and grace, which do not really have much to do with Parallels to Karma. Therefore excuse the large editorial swipe - and it's replacement with a paragraph that draws out the analog of Karma with God the Judge.
I propose that we add an additional paragraph that deals with the redundancy of both God the Judge and Karma - but this is far more to do with those religions that assert both (Hinduism, Spiritism, etc), rather than those religions which do not (mainstream Christianity).
As for the issues of Karma vs. Grace, it may be possible to add yet another paragraph concerning that - (and once again, Grace is a concept we find in Hinduism - and the Grace vs. Karma arguments have a history related to the Hinduism vs. Buddhism dialogues, rather than anything to do with Christianity)
Lastly, there are enough pages on WP for quotes from the bible - and IMO this article is not an appropriate forum; generally, non-christians do not accept the bible as having any divine authority or mandate. If we wish to quote from scriptures concerning Karma, that is fine - but quoting from scriptures to concern ourselves with Grace in Christianity is - IMO - severely off-topic. ( 20040302 09:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC))
Karma in Hinduism is a better repository for the 'Hinduism Small' template. I have adjusted the template, this article, and Karma in Hinduism to match. ( 20040302 09:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC))
This article, like the article
Bible and reincarnation, is being submited to an
anathema of current-days, regarding the issue of the 'Law of Karma' in
Christian religion, by users which want keep a biased vision of the social-cultural reality defended by the literal radicalism in mainstream denominations (
Evangelists,
Protestants,
Catholics,...) and through these invious actions are trying to throw into oblivion alternative views (
Esoteric Christianity groups,
Spiritism, ...) which are able show through intellectual
logic the existence of the 'Law of Karma' and 'Reincarnation' in the Teachings of the
Christ and are able also to help us to re-acquire the forgotten faith in
God our Father.
These destructive actions of the mainstream denomination(s) were done also in the past through long centuries (almost two millenia) of
persecution, suffering and death to the labeled "
heretics" (
Alexandria
Gnostics,
Cathars,
Knights Templar, Operative
Masonry, Mystical
Rosicrucians, and others) which were taughting the "mysteries", spoken by the
Christ, to a minority prepared to receive them with the mind of a "little child".
And these mainstream churches still expect to acquire "salvation", and preach it to other fellow human beings, through the example of these invious actions! Don't be
hypocrite! IT IS TIME things change as we have now a developed
mind which can "think", the basic information is available around us and individual freedom is being acquired!
P.S.: Eastern and western religions, all alike, will have to give place to the new world Religion as their Teachings, as sound and deep as they are, stop at one point: the point where the Mission of the
Christ becomes "the Way" to all of them and to all of us, human beings in a "vigil" state of
consciousness (remember the words of the
Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (
John 14:6;
KJV) and "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." (John 16:12)).
Best regards, In Christian Fellowship ("GOD IS LIGHT. If we walk in the Light as He is in the Light we have FELLOWSHIP one with another.")
Below is the most NPOV introduction to the theme, brought to us by user
Subramanian, which was sadly deleted: --
194.65.22.226
22:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
GalaazV
A large majority of christians belive that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith, and that to think otherwise is offensive. For them, the idea of the Abrahamic God, dispersing decisions through ineffable and omniscient judgements, makes the concept of karma redundant. Therefore, only God through grace can save humans in the afterlife; humankind is usually thought to be too sinful to achieve salvation through its own means. Traditional doctrine on forgiveness and remission of sins is very different from the belief that one is eternally caught in the cycle of cause and effect, in this life and beyond. Most interpretations of christianity do not emphasize the religious importance of intentions or thoughts (called volition), a major point of karma.
A sizable number of Christians, however, have a different view on this, embracing the concepts of Karma and reincarnation fully. Followers of Esoteric Christianity, Spiritism and others believe that grace of God alone offers humankind the possibility to grow, evolve and stand on its own. To them, Karma is considered a learning tool, through an endless number of repeating opportunities that God eternally gives to everyone. The role of grace, here, is creating the world where this learning can occur, and helping every man and woman meticulously along the way, sometimes even in miraculous events, but carefully as if not to spoil the learning of such children as they grow.
Also, karma is thought by some Jesuit theologians to be consistent with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
Christian teachings do not usually include the idea of Karma, although some parallels can be made, such as in the Golden Rule and as exemplified by biblical verses:
The concept of intervention by grace, very strong in christianism, is not alien to dharma- and karma-based religions, such as Hinduism, but it is not central; grace rather works changing the natural karmic flow ^ .
It still not going along with Christianity, According to Bible, Job was righteous and certified by God but he was allowed to suffer. Karma is not a synonym for 'Good Works' rather it always inseparable from Reincarnation. Good works in Christianity is an "effect" of salvation not a cause! -- Karma2Grace 13:55, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Just wondering if there would be room in this section of the article to draw a comparison between karma as a description of cause and effect in the terms of past, present and future action, and the Norse concept of wyrd which is concerned with the same sort of thing. I'll wait and see if there's agreement rather than just insert it straight out! Kantiandream 14:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, there is an element of this section fundamentally wrong, but i don't want to simply remove it as i think the original author could reword it and still make his point... karma is NOT A JUDGE, it has no intrinsic capacity to do so. it is merely the description of the link between cause and effect. all other assumptions based on retribution etc are subsequent and not the concept itself. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
194.81.255.254 (
talk)
12:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The word "karma" is of course regularly applied to the explicitly-scored experience or "point" systems implemented in various open, on-line communities, those that attempt to reward good behavior (and punish undesired behavior) in a fair and group-consensual but automatic and impartial way, without the need for godlike administrators to dole out favors or capriciously punish suspected wrongdoers. Slashdot's moderation system is the best-known example, but I'm pretty sure the concept is widespread. The question is, does this usage deserve a section in this article, or a separate article? (This sense is mentioned on the Karma (disambiguation) page, but it points broadly to the slashdot and GameFAQs message boards articles, not specifically to a discussion of karma point systems in general, which I think would be appropriate, somewhere.) Steve Summit ( talk) 17:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Karma exists throughout the universe. It is simply the law of action and reaction at work. For every action there is a reaction. If the action is bad then the reaction is bad. If the action is good then the reaction will be good. This is a Divine Law in the universe. It has nothing to with religion at all. It is merely a Divine Spiritual Law. Religion has nothing, whatsoever, too do with spirituality. I make this comment simply because it is what I found in my studies on the subject of Karma. -- Bumpusmills1 18:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the external link * Charred mouse burns house. Not only is the link itself broken, but the story it refers to is irrelevant to the topic, and of dubious origin. See Urban Legends Mouse Fire-- Sentience 07:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
OK so the link has died but the story lives on - I don't know where you found that link from (denouncing the story)but this link shows that the story indeed happened as reported. Some people denoounce WWII concentration camps - does that means we remove any refernce to them from the wiki - I think not! The ABC is the Australian Government's TV station, and the story is to be added in as an external link as it is relevant and according to the story it DID happen. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1544597.htm
Who cares about the mouse? This article is a great example of one the underlying problems w/ Wikipedia: 15 or 20 ppl have seen fit to edit in their ideas about what 'karma' is or isn't, and reoughly 3 of them seem to have a) any clue about the technical meaning(s) of the word, or b) any clue about 'reference' or 'encyclopedic'. There is so much wrong with this article now.
And why, you quite correctly ask, have I not stopped whining and did something about it? Dunno, exactly, except I got distracted with a pleasant little reworking of the article on Kardecism, and now I'm tired. We shall see how the karmic threads weave themselves around my spirit tomorrow... Eaglizard 11:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Reading this article on 24 September 2006: this article makes less and less sense the further into it one reads. Grammatical and spelling errors are one thing; incoherent sentence structure and bad programming analogies that make no sense and have no citation whatsoever are a problem. I'm not a wikipedian, but if this article doesn't need cleanup I don't know what does.
'Karma means "(the result of) action", generally taken as a term that comprises the entire cycle douglas of cause and effect.'
What, may I ask, is a cycle douglas? --Nickinuu 02:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I find, in the intro paragraph: "Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. Individuals go through certain processes and accompanying experiences poop throughout their lives which they have chosen, and those would be based on the results of their own creations: "karma"." POOP? Surely, this isnot what the original author intended. I know not what to change it to, however, this reference needs to be changed...it may work if you think enough about it, but frankly, this is nowhere near a professional standard of work. 64.241.37.140 19:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Even more ... The main paragraph begins with *Karma is stupid and i hate it!!!!* And there seems to be no way of editing it away.
this article displays a lack of understanding of the concept of karma in buddhist and hindu religion, is poorly written, and has almost no references.
The following paragraphs seem to contradict one another (the first stating that only the Moksha state prevents karma from accumulating, the second stating that the Turiya state also does so even before achievement of the Moksha state). I do not know enough on the subject to fix this properly, hopefully someone will though. Seraphimblade 19:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Actions do not create karma (good or bad) only when the actions are performed by an individual in the state of Moksha. Such a person is called "Stithaprajna". Adi Sankara gave the dictum of "Akarmaiva Moksha" which means "Moksha can be attained only by doing, not by a process of effort". All actions performed by one in the state of Moksha are termed as Dharma.
The Hindus believe that everything in the Universe is in the state of creation, maintenance or destruction. The Hindu trinity of Gods Brahma (creator), Vishnu (maintainer) and Shiva (Destroyer) correspond to the states of creation, maintenance and destruction. At the thought level, the mind creates a thought, maintains (follows) it for some time and the thought ultimately dies down (perhaps to be replaced by another thought). The Hindus believe there is a fourth state of being (called Turiya) where the mind is not engaged in thinking but just observes the thoughts. Actions in the Turiya state do not create karma. The practice of meditation is aimed at giving individuals the experience of being in the Turiya state. An individual who is constantly in the Turiya state is said to have attained Moksha. In such an individual, actions happen as a response to events (and not because of thought process); such actions do not result in accumulation of Karma.
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With due respect to Hindus and Buddhists.
Should only Christians write about Angels, Devils, Heaven, etc. ? I'm sure there are Hindus, Buddhists who have written about these.
Should only Japanese write about Zen and Karate? Many Americans have written about Zen.
Angels, Devils, Heaven, Karma, etc. are ubiquitous , well known, universal concepts known all over the world, by the average man on the street and not limited to one religion, system of thought, etc.
A 'daemon' is a computer server. It is also a Greek concept meaning something like guarding spirit. Many Hindu programmers know the Greek concept as well. The best people to explain Greek concepts to Hindus are other Hindus (I think) already familiar with the concepts. e.g. a Hindu interpretation of 'Daemon' (with Hindu orientation). For this same line of thinking, there is a 'Western interpretation' with western orientation. Newbies to any system of thought, might get bogged down and confused with all other details and deep Hindu concepts. Intertwining creates confusion. Care must be given to make things easy to understand and familiarity with the orientation of the (Western, Christian, Muslim, etc. ) reader.-- Jondel 03:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The concept of Karma is also becoming more ubiquitous even in the Western (Christian) world. People for example attribute bad luck to 'Karma' for example. For some people (with western orientation) who can not accept suffering('ITS UNFAIR!' etc.. ) , the Karma concept offers a way of controlling destiny and becoming more responsible, I think. (It is fair. It was always fair. Your are responsible.)
BTW , I don't claim to be an authority on Western interpretation of Karma so in the same wikipedia spirit, anyone or everyone with authoritive or good sources are invited to contribute, edit and delete if need be.
Anyway, a Western interpretion or conceptualization of Karma is bound to come out .-- Jondel 01:24, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have added this article to Category:New religious movements, not because the concept itself is new (obviously), but because of the growing section in this article on its treatment by the new religious movements. -- Gary D 19:04, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Karma can become a very sophisticated , complicated subject.
However the concept satisfies a need to believe that
The Universe and Life is Just and Fire (in the light of injustice).
That we are in control and responsible for our circumstances.
That the Golden Rule(Reciprocity), Rules.--
Jondel 03:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's well-known that differing and 'evolving' (or rather diverging) opinions on the topic of Karma have emerged. But no one is restricting free interpretation of it. What the intention of categorizing these concepts is is to establish their original and standard associations. As an original concept, karma is first found in the Upanishads (Hindu tradition) and soon thereafter in Buddhism. These two religions, each millenia old, developed the concept and its existence today is grounded in Hinduism and Buddhism. If it is a valid and accepted part of "New Age" doctrine, then there is no restricting its inclusion in a New Age category. However the article will surely reflect "karma"s history as an Indian philosophical and religious concept and acknowledge much later trends, indeed trends that mark only at best 150 years of a nearly 3000 year span, later in the article with due space.
As for concepts of "karma" meaning bad-luck or Western misconceptions about the original idea: how a pure and neutral "cause-and-effect" reactionary framework of cosmic being devolved into 'bad luck' is interesting insofar as a footnote regarding erroneous modern usage is concerned. Large sections documenting misinterpretations of karma seem out-of-place. However, more on-the-ball comments on Theosophical or New-Age syncretistic traditions and how their use of Hindu and/or Buddhist philosophy affects people today and their view of karma seem appropriate. But then again, caution must be taken to represent karma faithfully as it is seen today: about 1.5 billion people (Hindus and Buddhists, also Sikhs and Jains) view it traditionally, retaining its original and non-radical evolution. The twisted ideas of Madonna-generation teens and how they see 'karma' meaning bad luck or a cool eastern word implying moral bank-credits from a Radiohead song are not primary references for the topic of karma, though I wouldn't object to brief mentions of it.
This leads me (a little out of order) to your paragraph on how "Care must be given to make things easy to understand and familiarity with the orientation of the (Western, Christian, Muslim, etc. ) reader." An encyclopaedia, and for that matter, any academic or scholarly dissertation/article on a given subject, attempts to present facts and reasonable consensus-understandings in an unbiased manner. Considerations of the reader's ethnicity, gender, or (a)-religious leaning factor in only inasmuch as one tries not to reveal one's own prejudices. To tailor a reading on karma to pinpoint the view of every religious or philosophical group in the world and its particular reaction to it would be an exercise in futility. This includes presenting it as the "Indian version" of the Golden rule. It includes a coherent and sophisticated system of ethics and spiritual ideas. Thus, one should present what karma is and weigh the distribution and presentation of thoughts according to its history. In this sense, it stands to reason that the Hindu and Buddhist stand, the two oldest and the progenitors of any modern non-Hindu-Buddhist understandings, would constitute most of the article. Would one rattle off an Indian philosophical rebuttal and/or reaction to Platonic ideas of "Forms" for half the Plato article? I think not. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 03:50, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
I see you are very erudite.
I respect the Hinduistic heiritage of Karma and I don't question your knowledge and don't advocate any deletions from the Hindu/Buddhist interpretions. No one questions that it is first found in the Upanishads. I understand the need for original and standard associations and it should be kept. I also agree that the Madonna generation teenagers are not authorities or good sources on Karma,.
Actually, the concept of Karma made me very happy when I had a spiritual search. Although I am Catholic in my upbringing.
Please consider the need.
Don't you think that Hinduists and Buddhists don't need this knowledge (unless it is as a reference)as much as those with out the same Indian orientation?
There will be many who will reach the limits of their faiths or system of beliefs and even crisis and will seek other justifications. Most would come from non-Indian orientations. For myself, it helped to explain suffering or injustice.
For example, many overtly Christians can not accept an eternal hell of Christianity and and this causes a lot of dilemnas and contradictions and confusion in the Christian faith. There are probably overt communists who want to believe there is a purpose to it all .
Much more suffering may also be caused by an improper understanding of Karma. (I hope I 'm not evangelizing here.) For example , Communists who say 'The end justifies the means'.
Even if it is a bit of an exercise in futility , please do try to make it it easier to understand for the Madonna generation teens, Atheists, Muslims, Christians and non-Hindus and non-Buddhist people. Who are you helping? Are you being relevant?
The more sophisticated and intertwining with other concepts the more confused the reader can become.
The concept is evolving but shouldn't really diverge. If the concept was totally erased from all human memory, it should emerge again like Mathematics, counting, etc.. Perhaps it should be studied more. But effort must be made to make it understandable and simple for all.
Within in the first 50 years of the the last century, Communism was believed in by more than one third of world because it's propagators made it easy to understand and believe in for the common man, pheasants, proletariats, etc... Karma as a concept is more reliable and enlightening than Communism. The end does not justify the means. Just as effort to make communism easy to understand for all. The concept of Karma shoul be made easy to understand and with orientations to the particular type of people.
I agree that the concept shouldn't come from but 'Madonna-generation' teens but it should be explainable in a language understood by them.
I don't want to tailor a reading on karma to pinpoint the view of every religious or philosophical group but a large portion of the world is Christian , Muslim and Atheist. I think it is not an exercise in futility if the a great portion of world is Christian , Muslim and atheist and as universal concept is explained in their 'language'. Intertwining Karma with other Hindu/ Buddhist/ Jainist concepts are likely to invite confusion and disinterest.
Really, many Indians, Hindus and Buddhistsdon't seem too be concerned about Platonic forms, etc. There is probably no need for an Indian interpretation for Platonic concepts, the 'Golden Rule 'etc.. On the other hand many Westerners are however are concerned with Karma as best as it can be understood, and believe it to be a real active operating principle and are investigating it as well as other oriental concepts to complement their (Christian, ) system of beliefs.
Who are you helping?
What do people really need to know?
Please be simple in explanation, and avoid intertwining with other Hindu concepts as it encourages confusion. I also advocate consensus-understandings in an unbiased manner. However, if I see a need or vacuum , I try tofill it.
-- Jondel 06:11, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I like the recent additions especially the ' spiritual physics of being' which expresses the principle very well. I hope Karma doesn't become an abstract concept with no relevance to day to day living.
I will to try conclude this discussion but still feel one last paragraph after the second in the introduction will satisfy my 'Western framework or interpretation' . Also we do have to cater to the lazy . (e.g. wiki - 'super fast' definition)
I can't help but target 'spiritually bankrupt' people because honestly , I 've had my own spiritual bankrupcy which conventional Christianity could not answer. I also hope it will discourage people from thingking 'The end justifies the means'.
Anyway, certain issues need to be addressed or else somebody will repeat this discussion ("Here we go again.").
I don't want the integrity of the definition sacrificed from its orignal context but would like very much to isolate it from other intertwining confusing Hindu concepts as much as possible. I do believe in Karma as an active operating principle like Mathematics and Gravity. Ignorance doesn't mean immunity. You get hurt by it. In this light, the concept shouldn't diverge much from its core definition.
I would like to insert a third paragraph in the introduction relating to the following themes.
The core elements which I believe (and propose)constitute Karma are: (They expanded on in Parabadha and Samchita sections) 1. Action and reaction (Yes , already defined in the article, I'm placing it here for reference) 2. Relations , Reciprocity in behaviour , human relations. Love and Hate. You attract the people you love and hate until the relationship energy is resolved. (Parabadha). 3. The individual is responsibe of his current and future situations . According to some Buddhists source even physical appearence and form. 4. Acts have far more reaching consequences than normally perceived which may extend beyond the individual's life. 5. Current abilities and talents are the result of Karma. DNA and genes only accomodate Karma. 6. (Sanchita, Samskara) One's personality and inclinations is determined by Karma.
I know, no one is restricting me. But anyone is welcome to add based on the themes above. The descriptions, which I will try to add, if possible should be brief, and with as little as possible reference to Hindu concepts. Such that a Catholic priest or Western teenager can refer to as if he were talking about Gravity.
I can't help but identify with Cayce since he had a very strong Christian foundation yet referred to Hindu Karma and Reincarnation. It bothered him as a Christian but had to reconcile both beliefs (or truths), with Christianity. The Cayce readings, however are very disorganized.
I don't mean to be myopic but pls, lets not be sarcastic. Also about Hindus and Plato. I don't mean that Hindus are not interested in Plato. But the interest in Karma is much greater for Westeners for Karma . A good working definition for daily use seems to be needed that can be readily understood by Westerners . (A 'wiki' super fast definition)
Let's keep the Avatar, Jesus and Krishna subjects out. They belong to another discussion.
Again the recent edits are good at the intro.
Karma and reincarnation were revelation for me and had a powerful impact that's why discuss this.
I believe I've said most of what I need to say (the core elements) and a Western framework which I feel the current paragraph and the one above will satisfy. So thanks for your and views for the time being. -- Jondel 08:22, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I appreciate your desire to be clear and discuss, and this is proving quite fruitive. But I fail to see why your insecurities about Karma being involved in other Hindu concepts should be catered to. We're not secularizing what began as a religious (and still is mostly) a religious topic. We're presenting it as it is. Recent Western interest doesn't change its background. For instance, the Hindu metaphysics involving yugas (ages), atman (soul) that reincarnates through multiple lives, the evolution of the soul, the possibility of transcendence through yoga, meditation, bhakti (devotion), these are all fundamental Hindu ideas in which karma grew up. We can't act as if it has nothing to do with each other! THat's just being silly and prejudiced.
As for Hindus, they have plenty of interest in Plato, moreso than Westerners being that Plato and Western philosophy is a standard part of Western education in Indian schools (which are largely English-medium) whereas karma is a marginalized "Southeastern religions" study course for Western colleges. And trust me, I should know, having been schooled in both India and America.
I appreciate desire for universalism, but karma is clearly too firmly rooted in Buddhism and Hinduism to dismiss the religious contexts in which it burgeoned. We can deal with syncretic Western (re)interpretations later in the article. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 19:09, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
I appreciate your efforts to keep the Karma definition firmly rooted in its Hindu and Buddhist framework and I think it should continue. Else the definition might evolve into something very different.
I will be confining my definitions/additions to the Western interpretation /framework section. That way, the Hindu/Buddhist framework is left intact.
I don't dispute that Hindu have plenty interest in Plato. Please don't misinterpret me. I think Karma studies shouldn't be marginalized.
The reason a 'secular' version is needed is , like all laws, ignorance doesn't grant immunity . You only get hurt. (Learn Karma the hardway). It is real (I believe).
Besides some people are adverse to 'religion'. What is seen as religion by one person can be an active real operating ('secular/scientific') principle to another.
Presenting with intertwining concepts or other Hindu concepts is like presenting Quantum Physics without going through Calculus, High School Physics, Math, etc..
I don't mean to be prejudiced in isolating a concept from other Hindu concepts but understanding comes in stages. I have no prejudice, in fact I am reading other Hindu material like Shankara, Patanjali, Yoga. (I can't help but reflect how these 'universal' principles operate within a Christian context. ) . BTW, the other wikipedia pages on the same are very enlightening and informative. [--No , I 'm not going to insist on simplifying or creating Western frameworks on those other pages. ] . I feel that a step by step approach is better.
Anyway, I edited/inserted a section (Health, Relationships, Abilities, Talents etc..)and made a few references to Hindu concept like Parabadha and Sanchita and inserted the core elements that I need to see. I hope it reflects Hindu and Buddhists concepts well but they are based on Cayce readings. I hope it will also be more relevant to a Western audience. I hope the definition does not diverge or evolve to something different. Unless the section I inserted is not agreeable to all, there is little for me to say. I'm signing out.
BTW, isn't Kismet an Arabic word? (Or Arabic world according to Wikipedia, somebody correct this(?).) Is this Sanskrit or a Hindu concept ?-- Jondel 06:44, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the burgeoning size of this section, particularly because a lot of it doesn't 1) seem appropriate and 2) present anything new. Some of the sections sound like moral apothegms and others represent certain ideas of 'collective karma' (and other such thoughts) as if they were established, brought to new light or revolutionized by Cayce (and new schools in the West), none of which things is true. Also, beyond these two problems, these sections are meant to be either brief elucidations of karma or mentions of influential systems utilizing karma; I understand Cayce and the supposedly 'new western' looks are ostensibly both of these, but in actuality neither is Cayce (or the West) so looming a figure nor the information and theories so original as to merit devouring half the article. I'm not going to excise any material that is not mentioned elsewhere, though the Cayce examples don't seem appropriate and at best should be featured on a separate 'Cayce' article; {with)in a week or so, I'll be trimming it down substantially.
I do not believe in Karma. Why? Think of all the children with cool and loving families (therefore fairly unlikely to commit "mortal sins") getting brutally raped and beaten to deaths due to racial/social class hate/vendetta. Think of the poor children in Sudan or Ethiopia starving to deaths whilst sick from AIDs. Karma tells me that all these children deserved to die horrific deaths because they have, or would all commit crimes in their lives had they lived. Karma tells me, Africa is a place of bad Karma, because it has so much suffering, and people are only Africans because they have bad Karma. I do not believe in this, and I do not want to believe that there are people who would believe in Karma based on these grounds. Please do prove my interpretation wrong. RZ heretic 01:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Why should we? This is NOT a forum!-- 81.164.134.236 08:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Good deeds bring good karma. In buddhism, there is no good or bad karma. Nothing is determined as good or bad. It's all up to how you interpret it. So it's just karma. Not good, not bad, just karma. Karma is everything that happens. Satanicbowlerhat 05:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Go to a Buddhist temple and ask a Buddhist monk about this. They have the authority to explain about karma in details in a way that truly impacts. Levin10 07:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a forum for discussing thoughts on the subject in the article — rather, the talk page's only purpose is to discuss changes made to the article. Belief in the subject of the article is irrelevant to the article's quality and therefore should not be discussed here. -- Jeames ( Talk to me!) 02:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I Think u got the day-to-day meaning of karma wrong.Karma tells that all these children had to die horrific deaths not because of what they would have done,but because of what they had done in their previous births.The concept of reincarnation is intrinsic to the concept of karma.The deepest meaning of what can be attributed to your argument is that,actually "nothing in this world is as is",ie there is no such thing as absolute enjoyment or bliss etc.It all depends on one's perception of a subject.A person in suffering,may feel dejected or sad,while another in the same pain,may think of it as a way of dissolving his karma.
AdamHolt 16:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC) You can also take the idea of karma, or cause and effect, on whatever level you wish. For example, you don't believe in karma, but nonetheless you react in certain ways based on this disbelief. Then, due to the way you act, you both have certain impressions planted in your mind, and also other people react to your actions- perhaps you're angry or something like that. Due to ignorance, you don't know all of the results of your actions, which then causes basically unwanted or unseen results, since you didn't see the full scope of each action. So, you don't have to think of Africa as having bad karma in the sense of necessarily evil karma or something like that, but that due to ignorance people may have gotten into situations where they raped others, beat them, etc, and due to not understanding that this does not just end there but has results, ended up being born in Africa under bad circumstances. Hopefully they will learn from it and not repeat the actions, and I don't really know that what I'm saying is 100% true, but nonetheless we all make causes of future results. And we don't always know, or at most rarely know, the full results of our actions.
I found the article sort of confusing. In the first paragraph, it says "Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward. Karma simply deals with what is," but throughout the article it talks about karma as being about these things: "In the popular American Series My name is Earl, Earl (played by Jason Lee) becomes the victim of karma but eventually realises that he must make up for all the bad things he's done in order to stop being punished." "Spirituality or a belief that virtue is rewarded and sin creates suffering eventually leads to a belief in Karma." "Some observers have compared the action of karma to Western notions of sin and judgment by God or gods, while others understand karma as an inherent principle of the universe without the intervention of any supernatural Being." et cetera
I understand that the concept is inherently confusing and that many different definitions exist, but I think that this is a pretty important point to address. Does karma contain moral judgement, or is it merely a causal explanation? In the idea of karma, is there some objective standard of moral behavior, or is the distinction entirely subjective, based on what the individual desires or doesn't (as is described in the "Karma on a practical level" section)?
NC/04.17.07 Karma - The Essence of the Law The Law of Karma is not so easy to grasp. The first thing to note about the law is that it rests upon the pillars of Causation. "It signifies that nothing can happen without a sufficient cause in the moral as in the physical world - that each life with all its pains and pleasures is the necessary result of the actions of past lives and becomes in turn the cause, through its own activities, of future births." In fact 'Karma'is nothing but a name given to this causal theory when practically aplied to the life of humans or other conscious beings. It has got nothing to do with virtue, sin, punishment or rewards. None would reward and punish until and unless 'I' myself would be there to execute an action. And once an action is executed the reaction takes its own course. Indian orthodox schools like the Samkhya and Mimangsa hold that this reaction being autonomous takes its own course, while others like the Nyaya and Vaiseshika maintain that Karma is unconcious and hence needs the guiding control of God. 'Karma', no doubt is subjective which is why it is roundly taken as the cycle of 'desire' and its consequent action. As the soul desires and acts it reaps the fruits of action and returns to this world for performing further actions.
There is a word "Karma", passed on from the past, but nowadays it is rare to find someone who knows correctly what Karma is. What do we call Karma and what is Karma ? Karma is something that exists in the source which moves oneself, lets have a look carefully how the Karma which is in the source, is made.
What is Karma ?
submitted by: Paul S
From karma:
"Life is a cycle of conceptual rebirths evident in what can be defined as consciousness. Far from being a strictly action/reaction agent, karma is at work during our physical lives albeit in an unfathomable manner at times (ie. great beings who suffer much)."
I think I actually agree with that. But I'm not sure. Can it be said any more clearly??
*Also* -- we need to phrase this in a neutral manner, not "X is", but "Some people think X is", or "X may be regarded as ..."
Thanks!!
I think the opening sentence puts karma in the context of Eastern religion; it's not necessary to pepper the entire article with "Some people think..." and "It is believed by some that...". Besides, that's just bad style. ;-) -- Stephen Gilbert
' Karma as a term is often misunderstood to mean specific accumulation of a sort of negative energy from misdeeds (compare with aspects of the Golden Rule). In fact, while karma includes this concept just because it includes the consequences of all human existence, it is really about accumulation of worldliness, in the sense of worldliness inhibiting spiritual passage. '
===Request: Explain Diff with Karma and Christian sin; and Karmic implications of Thoughts=== Somebody, please explain a difference in the concepts of Christian sin and karma. e.g. Something like sin deals with punishment and reward for good behaviour, etc. Also, Christianity does deal not much with thoughts. For example , is bad karma created by wrong thoughts, resentments, hate, etc.? Please place under the Christianity paragraph. Thanks Jondel 07:06, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)~~
We should only use the most specific pertinent categories; i.e., if Karma is a Hindu and Buddhist philosophical concept, it shouldn't also be categorized as "Hinduism" or "Buddhism". -- कुक्कुरोवाच| Talk‽ 20:24, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the burgeoning size of this section, particularly because a lot of it doesn't 1) seem appropriate and 2) present anything new. Some of the sections sound like moral apothegms and others represent certain ideas of 'collective karma' (and other such thoughts) as if they were established, brought to new light or revolutionized by Cayce (and new schools in the West), none of which things is true. Also, beyond these two problems, these sections are meant to be either brief elucidations of karma or mentions of influential systems utilizing karma; I understand Cayce and the supposedly 'new western' looks are ostensibly both of these, but in actuality neither is Cayce (or the West) so looming a figure nor the information and theories so original as to merit devouring half the article. I'm not going to excise any material that is not mentioned elsewhere, though the Cayce examples don't seem appropriate and at best should be featured on a separate 'Cayce' article; {with)in a week or so, I'll be trimming it down substantially.
So, anyone else bothered by the characterization of Newton's 3rd law as 'action is reaction'? A more proper statement of it is 'for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'. Stated this way it loses any real connection to karma and should be removed IMHO.
I like the concept of Karma. I makes me awake. I see myself quite smoking because I see the cause not the fun of smoking. I see the result of extreme pain and suffering.
I wrote a brief, very simple definition at the begining. The article is long and detailed, but someone simply wanting to know what karma stands for would have had a hard time. I am sure it will help the uninitiated. -- Subramanian 19:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
I changed one sentence in the last paragraph to the section "Buddhism" in the hopes it more closley approximates the original author's intent. I guessed it was either vandalism or an unintentional scramble. Comments?
what is this supposed to mean?
Cynics tend to twist it around to "No good deed goes unpunished"
i needed to put that somewhere :) - and no, i'm not a cynic :P -- — Nate | Talk 13:04, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
24.155.158.226 17:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)Daniel
Umm... what's the deal with the Akashic Records/Karmic Lords foofawraw in the intro? I don't remember that coming up in any of my Asian religions classes.... — grant -- 15:19, 2 Sep 05 == == == == == == ==]]]]''
In one sense, there is a similarity. Both karma and the teaching of Jesus on what he calls “sin”—both include the idea that man can and does do things wrong and evil. That there is something wrong with the human race is somewhat included in both of these concepts. But the differences are great. The source of our problem and how to counteract it are very different in the teaching of Jesus. The Bible teaches that man lives once, and then after death there is judgment. Karma assumes many lifetimes in order to escape the cycle of birth and death and be freed from the web of Samsara. Jesus teaches that all men accrue a debt that comes from one life of deeds, motives, words, and thoughts that are bent or evil. In the teaching of Jesus, having more than one lifetime would only make the problem worse, the Visa debt would simply climb higher and higher. The solution to sin is also deeper in the Christian teaching, in that deeds and meditation are not acceptable balances to the problem. Jesus teaches that God is absolutely perfect and demands this from His creatures as well. Man cannot make up for evil deeds with good deeds, because the standard is not a balance of good and evil, but goodness and purity and perfection. The Visa bill that is due is not payable in money or in pilgrimages or good deeds: in fact it is the lack of the fullness of these in a complete way that brings the debt due. Jesus also reveals that God is compassionate and full of grace. The teaching and life of Jesus is that He came as God in the flesh, the only incarnation of God among men, and that He went to a cross intentionally-- to pay the debt for all the world’s sin. As the only perfect man, he was qualified to pay the debt. As God incarnate he has the full weight to pay for the sins of the entire world. The way of forgiveness is simply to address the Visa bills: “payable by Jesus.”
I am not here to Judge or think on behalf of God (thus creates cult) on the judgment of Hitler or the communist Doctor, The 'Karma' (Which associated with reincarnation) is no way related to bible or Christianity, I would like to remove the passage which reads "Parallels in Christianity" I am really not here to debate what is right and what is wrong, it is a blasphemy to say that bible supports eastern version of ‘Karma’
>it is a blasphemy to say that bible supports eastern version of ‘Karma’
As a Christian, I do believe in karma to an extent. Someone who claims to have received grace must strive to live a life worthy of that grace. James 2 tells us that faith without works is dead, and Galatians 6 assures us that, as a man sows, thus shall he reap.
Please remove the Christianity reference from this article as Christianity doesn't support Hindu version of 'Karma' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Karma2Grace ( talk • contribs) .
Christian teachings does not include the idea of Karma saying otherwise is simply ridiculing the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, Salvation in Christianity is purely by Grace
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast
Although some out of context parallels (in the article) made by 19th century eastern (cult) Gurus came to west to preach eastern views, those verses primarily teach, On Judgment day every one need pay the price for rejecting Christ
Karma is NOT a natural Law, Spiritism is NOT a sub branch of Christianity, Who ever believe in karma will better qualified as a Hindu than Christian
I would like to let it recorded here that I have added the following:
under the "Parallels in western religions" section just to try to conciliate things, but I don´t think this article is the proper place for such a paragraph. This is the Karma article, and the paragraph above simply studies christianity and grace. But for the sake of clarity, and peace, if it is needed, so be it. As for 20040302's comment on expanding the parallels so that it will not consider christianity alone, I fully agree, but I can´t write about any other western faith related to karma. Could people help? Does Sufism have any parallel, for instance? Subramanian talk 20:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello. Karma2Grace has made this edit and I feel it´s rather agressive, redundant and derogatory to certain christian sects, but I think I have contributed already and I would prefer if someone else impartially analizes it. Could someone help? Thanks! Subramanian talk 20:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear Subramanian , I don't see any wrong or derogatory information provided in my change (If so pls point that out), I don't think a sect which belives in Reincarnation and Karma will be Christian (than Hindu), None of the main line christians will accept "spritists" as christians.-- Karma2Grace 20:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, people! Actually, Spiritism (also referred wrongly as "Kardecism"), which is a Christian religion, also states its opinion about karma. The doctrine says that karma exists, but it is not irreversible, as its subject can have its karma turned lighter or even be free of its expiation, according to his behaviour in the actual life. In the same way, it can be turned worse. Any comments about this, please write me a particular brief message. Rafael "Banzai" 22:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
To receive the Grace of God, I believe Christians need to have true faith and accept Jesus as their savior into their life. In addition, there are many more undertakings before they can truly consider themselves as Christians.
Through their sincere actions/intentions to want to receive God's grace, Christians have already generated in themselves a karma. This karmic action results in an effect - the down flow of God’s Grace to the persons concerned. As a result, the faithful Christians, following the teachings and abiding in the Truth are saved in the manner as described by the Bible scriptures. This is exactly what Karma for Christians is all about: the earnest and continual devotion to Jesus and God will bring forth the outcome: salvation. This is the Law of cause and effect. That is Karma. When your mind constantly turns inwards while you pray and rest in True Reality, you become one with Jesus and with God. Other faiths have different way to achieve unity consciousness. For example, the Hindus and Buddhists- they practise stillness of the mind to free themselves from the worldly attachments. This way they are in contact with the Voidness, the One, and the True Reality. Simply put, each religion has a different path to salvation. Ultimately, what truly counts is the earnest devotion of each and everyone to practise self-cultivation to achieve purity of the mind and heart: You will bear fruits through your devotion in prayers, through belief in Jesus, through acquiring the transcendental wisdom of Buddha, through meditation, through self-examination of transgressions and sincere repentance of sins, through chanting, through outpouring of loving-kindness, compassion and universal love, through helping your fellow beings, through being truthful and honest, through stillness etc. Those doings that come deep from your inner self are what really count because those actions and intentions are seeds that will bear fruits. The continual cultivation and purification of the heart and mind will lead one closer to spiritual realization and eternity. (e.g. emancipation from cycles of re-births for the Buddhists and attainment of Kingdom of Heaven for Christians etc) Self-cultivation is never a one-off thing and it requires continual devotion and practices. That way, our life becomes meaningful and our living purposeful. - John
I examined the former seven paragraphs of under the parallels section, and most of it has decayed into a discussion on the relative merits/demerits of faith and grace, which do not really have much to do with Parallels to Karma. Therefore excuse the large editorial swipe - and it's replacement with a paragraph that draws out the analog of Karma with God the Judge.
I propose that we add an additional paragraph that deals with the redundancy of both God the Judge and Karma - but this is far more to do with those religions that assert both (Hinduism, Spiritism, etc), rather than those religions which do not (mainstream Christianity).
As for the issues of Karma vs. Grace, it may be possible to add yet another paragraph concerning that - (and once again, Grace is a concept we find in Hinduism - and the Grace vs. Karma arguments have a history related to the Hinduism vs. Buddhism dialogues, rather than anything to do with Christianity)
Lastly, there are enough pages on WP for quotes from the bible - and IMO this article is not an appropriate forum; generally, non-christians do not accept the bible as having any divine authority or mandate. If we wish to quote from scriptures concerning Karma, that is fine - but quoting from scriptures to concern ourselves with Grace in Christianity is - IMO - severely off-topic. ( 20040302 09:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC))
Karma in Hinduism is a better repository for the 'Hinduism Small' template. I have adjusted the template, this article, and Karma in Hinduism to match. ( 20040302 09:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC))
This article, like the article
Bible and reincarnation, is being submited to an
anathema of current-days, regarding the issue of the 'Law of Karma' in
Christian religion, by users which want keep a biased vision of the social-cultural reality defended by the literal radicalism in mainstream denominations (
Evangelists,
Protestants,
Catholics,...) and through these invious actions are trying to throw into oblivion alternative views (
Esoteric Christianity groups,
Spiritism, ...) which are able show through intellectual
logic the existence of the 'Law of Karma' and 'Reincarnation' in the Teachings of the
Christ and are able also to help us to re-acquire the forgotten faith in
God our Father.
These destructive actions of the mainstream denomination(s) were done also in the past through long centuries (almost two millenia) of
persecution, suffering and death to the labeled "
heretics" (
Alexandria
Gnostics,
Cathars,
Knights Templar, Operative
Masonry, Mystical
Rosicrucians, and others) which were taughting the "mysteries", spoken by the
Christ, to a minority prepared to receive them with the mind of a "little child".
And these mainstream churches still expect to acquire "salvation", and preach it to other fellow human beings, through the example of these invious actions! Don't be
hypocrite! IT IS TIME things change as we have now a developed
mind which can "think", the basic information is available around us and individual freedom is being acquired!
P.S.: Eastern and western religions, all alike, will have to give place to the new world Religion as their Teachings, as sound and deep as they are, stop at one point: the point where the Mission of the
Christ becomes "the Way" to all of them and to all of us, human beings in a "vigil" state of
consciousness (remember the words of the
Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (
John 14:6;
KJV) and "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." (John 16:12)).
Best regards, In Christian Fellowship ("GOD IS LIGHT. If we walk in the Light as He is in the Light we have FELLOWSHIP one with another.")
Below is the most NPOV introduction to the theme, brought to us by user
Subramanian, which was sadly deleted: --
194.65.22.226
22:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
GalaazV
A large majority of christians belive that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith, and that to think otherwise is offensive. For them, the idea of the Abrahamic God, dispersing decisions through ineffable and omniscient judgements, makes the concept of karma redundant. Therefore, only God through grace can save humans in the afterlife; humankind is usually thought to be too sinful to achieve salvation through its own means. Traditional doctrine on forgiveness and remission of sins is very different from the belief that one is eternally caught in the cycle of cause and effect, in this life and beyond. Most interpretations of christianity do not emphasize the religious importance of intentions or thoughts (called volition), a major point of karma.
A sizable number of Christians, however, have a different view on this, embracing the concepts of Karma and reincarnation fully. Followers of Esoteric Christianity, Spiritism and others believe that grace of God alone offers humankind the possibility to grow, evolve and stand on its own. To them, Karma is considered a learning tool, through an endless number of repeating opportunities that God eternally gives to everyone. The role of grace, here, is creating the world where this learning can occur, and helping every man and woman meticulously along the way, sometimes even in miraculous events, but carefully as if not to spoil the learning of such children as they grow.
Also, karma is thought by some Jesuit theologians to be consistent with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
Christian teachings do not usually include the idea of Karma, although some parallels can be made, such as in the Golden Rule and as exemplified by biblical verses:
The concept of intervention by grace, very strong in christianism, is not alien to dharma- and karma-based religions, such as Hinduism, but it is not central; grace rather works changing the natural karmic flow ^ .
It still not going along with Christianity, According to Bible, Job was righteous and certified by God but he was allowed to suffer. Karma is not a synonym for 'Good Works' rather it always inseparable from Reincarnation. Good works in Christianity is an "effect" of salvation not a cause! -- Karma2Grace 13:55, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Just wondering if there would be room in this section of the article to draw a comparison between karma as a description of cause and effect in the terms of past, present and future action, and the Norse concept of wyrd which is concerned with the same sort of thing. I'll wait and see if there's agreement rather than just insert it straight out! Kantiandream 14:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, there is an element of this section fundamentally wrong, but i don't want to simply remove it as i think the original author could reword it and still make his point... karma is NOT A JUDGE, it has no intrinsic capacity to do so. it is merely the description of the link between cause and effect. all other assumptions based on retribution etc are subsequent and not the concept itself. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
194.81.255.254 (
talk)
12:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The word "karma" is of course regularly applied to the explicitly-scored experience or "point" systems implemented in various open, on-line communities, those that attempt to reward good behavior (and punish undesired behavior) in a fair and group-consensual but automatic and impartial way, without the need for godlike administrators to dole out favors or capriciously punish suspected wrongdoers. Slashdot's moderation system is the best-known example, but I'm pretty sure the concept is widespread. The question is, does this usage deserve a section in this article, or a separate article? (This sense is mentioned on the Karma (disambiguation) page, but it points broadly to the slashdot and GameFAQs message boards articles, not specifically to a discussion of karma point systems in general, which I think would be appropriate, somewhere.) Steve Summit ( talk) 17:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Karma exists throughout the universe. It is simply the law of action and reaction at work. For every action there is a reaction. If the action is bad then the reaction is bad. If the action is good then the reaction will be good. This is a Divine Law in the universe. It has nothing to with religion at all. It is merely a Divine Spiritual Law. Religion has nothing, whatsoever, too do with spirituality. I make this comment simply because it is what I found in my studies on the subject of Karma. -- Bumpusmills1 18:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the external link * Charred mouse burns house. Not only is the link itself broken, but the story it refers to is irrelevant to the topic, and of dubious origin. See Urban Legends Mouse Fire-- Sentience 07:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
OK so the link has died but the story lives on - I don't know where you found that link from (denouncing the story)but this link shows that the story indeed happened as reported. Some people denoounce WWII concentration camps - does that means we remove any refernce to them from the wiki - I think not! The ABC is the Australian Government's TV station, and the story is to be added in as an external link as it is relevant and according to the story it DID happen. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1544597.htm
Who cares about the mouse? This article is a great example of one the underlying problems w/ Wikipedia: 15 or 20 ppl have seen fit to edit in their ideas about what 'karma' is or isn't, and reoughly 3 of them seem to have a) any clue about the technical meaning(s) of the word, or b) any clue about 'reference' or 'encyclopedic'. There is so much wrong with this article now.
And why, you quite correctly ask, have I not stopped whining and did something about it? Dunno, exactly, except I got distracted with a pleasant little reworking of the article on Kardecism, and now I'm tired. We shall see how the karmic threads weave themselves around my spirit tomorrow... Eaglizard 11:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Reading this article on 24 September 2006: this article makes less and less sense the further into it one reads. Grammatical and spelling errors are one thing; incoherent sentence structure and bad programming analogies that make no sense and have no citation whatsoever are a problem. I'm not a wikipedian, but if this article doesn't need cleanup I don't know what does.
'Karma means "(the result of) action", generally taken as a term that comprises the entire cycle douglas of cause and effect.'
What, may I ask, is a cycle douglas? --Nickinuu 02:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I find, in the intro paragraph: "Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. Individuals go through certain processes and accompanying experiences poop throughout their lives which they have chosen, and those would be based on the results of their own creations: "karma"." POOP? Surely, this isnot what the original author intended. I know not what to change it to, however, this reference needs to be changed...it may work if you think enough about it, but frankly, this is nowhere near a professional standard of work. 64.241.37.140 19:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Even more ... The main paragraph begins with *Karma is stupid and i hate it!!!!* And there seems to be no way of editing it away.
this article displays a lack of understanding of the concept of karma in buddhist and hindu religion, is poorly written, and has almost no references.
The following paragraphs seem to contradict one another (the first stating that only the Moksha state prevents karma from accumulating, the second stating that the Turiya state also does so even before achievement of the Moksha state). I do not know enough on the subject to fix this properly, hopefully someone will though. Seraphimblade 19:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Actions do not create karma (good or bad) only when the actions are performed by an individual in the state of Moksha. Such a person is called "Stithaprajna". Adi Sankara gave the dictum of "Akarmaiva Moksha" which means "Moksha can be attained only by doing, not by a process of effort". All actions performed by one in the state of Moksha are termed as Dharma.
The Hindus believe that everything in the Universe is in the state of creation, maintenance or destruction. The Hindu trinity of Gods Brahma (creator), Vishnu (maintainer) and Shiva (Destroyer) correspond to the states of creation, maintenance and destruction. At the thought level, the mind creates a thought, maintains (follows) it for some time and the thought ultimately dies down (perhaps to be replaced by another thought). The Hindus believe there is a fourth state of being (called Turiya) where the mind is not engaged in thinking but just observes the thoughts. Actions in the Turiya state do not create karma. The practice of meditation is aimed at giving individuals the experience of being in the Turiya state. An individual who is constantly in the Turiya state is said to have attained Moksha. In such an individual, actions happen as a response to events (and not because of thought process); such actions do not result in accumulation of Karma.