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Please feel free to revise and expand on the issue of Wolff's knowledge of the Holocaust. -- Jstalin 17:02, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Who was involved in the later trial, because Treblinka was something that all humanity simply should be made aware of. 86.149.209.189 23:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
"...Despite this, he openly admits in the television documentary The World At War that he witnessed an execution of Jewish prisoners with Himmler, going so far as to describe the splatter of brains on Himmler's coat...." - There is no mentioning in the World at War episode of the ethnicity or reasons of the prisoners being shot. So please take out the "Jewish" from the article. -- 41.14.211.41 ( talk) 23:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
By any standard, Wolff gets a 'free pass' in this article - much as he did in life. There's no mention of the CIA's role in protecting him in the post-WW2 years.
I believe his son, Thorismond, also went into the advertising game and handled some big tobacco accounts in West Germany. Father and son, both dealers in death. Surely there's material for a TV special. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justwanderinby ( talk • contribs) 03:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Heydrich didn't have friend in the SS and not particulary with Wolff !!-- Bobybarman34 ( talk) 12:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Wolff continually displayed his anti-semitism throughout his career. After the war he was interviewed by CIC and others in the US Military, he made bigoted remarks as a matter of course. He complained about his inprisonment, whining about in comparison to the death of thousands of Jews. "A Jew is killed in the gas chamber in a few seconds, without having any idea or knowing it. My comrades and I have been allowed to die once every night for 21 months. This is much more Inhumane than the extermination used on the Jews. Too much has been grossly exaggerated." Jochen Von Lang, 'Top Nazi SS General Karl Wolff: the man between hitler and himmler,' New York, Enigma Books, 2005. Hesweeney ( talk) 21:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Please see the comparison to web content on http://ahnen.greyfalcon.us/rahn.html (sidebar). It matches word for word the unsourced content from this article. Sometimes it's hard to tell which content is the original one and which one is the mirror cite, but in this case I suspect that "greyfalcon" is the original source, due to unusual word choices such as "Messrs Heidemann and Kujau" and because of generally well rounded prose. Note that the "soap opera" content is not part of greyfalcon's narrative; it must have been added later.
I would like more opinions on this. K.e.coffman ( talk) 23:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
I've restored the awards section and added citations. There has been no less than four attempts in the past few months to blank this information. Karl Wolff is one of the most extensively researched of SS generals and his award information is of academic interest. If there is an effort to blank it, this needs to be discussed with consensus, especially since this is now cited information. - O.R. Comms 02:00, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
If there is further issue with this, the matter should really be taken up at the military history discussion boards to get consensus. Right now, this appears to be simply the opinion of a few users that these Nazi and SS awards are not noteworthy and should not be included, perhaps simply because they are SS and Nazi awards. There is no basis in Wikipedia policy for this; if there were, then by your own logic, we should be removing the National Defense Service Medal and Air Force Longevity Service Ribbon from all United States military articles. And what of all the service medals and colonial medals of the United Kingdom, to say nothing about the self imposed orders and people's medals of the communist regimes. As one can see, it doesn't stand up. This has also been discussed before and the blanking of Nazi Germany awards and decorations has always been frowned upon. - O.R. Comms 04:43, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Yours is not a "dead horse", but a horse of straw. In this discussion no one critical of the detailed awards section has implicated "that those adding them somehow favor the Nazis". That seems to be the universal way to fend off any argument by shedding a bad light on the other party. Neither did I suggest that this article is about "whitewash". I argued that awards are treated with an undue depth of detail. I also relied heavily on WP:SCHOLARSHIP, which is part of RS, and under the section headline Scholarship it reads Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible, which is very close to my wording "articles should rely on scholarly material when available". Further I refer to WP:INDISCRIMINATE: To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. And I do not know of an exception to WP:OR, according to which "veteran editor"s are to be trusted, because of good faith, and because they have personally reviewed the records directly at the Archives. So far I did not claim that "the official records are not to be trusted", although I should have, because dates which are found in personal files of SS-men are not per se correct. You don't have to believe me, of course, although I consider myself to be a "veteran editor" as well, but I can provide a citation by historian Dieter Pohl or just take notice of Rudolf Höß' date of birth. I have to say that I perceive tips and tricks for research trips to the National Archive in College Park as arrogant and disrespectful. Although there is a significant number of editors in support of award lists, I do not see a "general consensus" for such a broad proposal like "lesser decorations such as campaign and service awards" should be included, "when such awards may be cited in reliable sources to include official service records and discharge/retirement government documents". This means nothing else than: Anything goes, because these documents mention pretty much every award imaginable. But now I know how "general consensus" and certain "Wikipedia policies" come about.-- Assayer ( talk) 02:53, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
A list of awards is normal, but the SS Honour Ring and SS Julleuchter veer into the indiscriminate, since Wikipedia is geared towards the general reader, and not the collector of Third Reich memorabilia. There's nothing inherently informative about the SS ring, since (as I understand) all SS men received one. Various badges and non-combat decorations, such as the Memel Medal, could also go. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:09, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Re: "So, in fact, to have ether the SS ring or sword was considered an exceptional honor
" -- this does not jive with Wikipedia's own articles on the topic:
K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:25, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
I hope that answers some of the questions here for why these three items should stay in awards lists. - O.R. Comms 16:33, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
were not automatically given out", when ""in World War II virtually the entire SS leadership, including the Waffen-SS and Gestapo, had been given the ring" -- ? K.e.coffman ( talk) 07:29, 20 December 2016 (UTC
if they were issued to this fellow and we have a reliable source for it, there is no good reason why they shouldn't be listed" -- what would be the encyclopedic reason for doing so, if they are being cited to a primary source without any context? How does this enhance the reader's understanding of the subject?
were decorations for exceptional service to the SS which were personally presented by Himmler", while the Wikipedia article on the SS ring does not state that. I hope that OberRanks can clarify. K.e.coffman ( talk) 07:27, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
I have generally been of the opinion that except for long service awards (congrats you failed to quit or be killed!) or 'wounded' awards (congrats! you failed to duck!) awards/medals for X should be included. Only in death does duty end ( talk) 16:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
The result of the above discussion appears to be that Wikipedia articles should include lists of official state and military awards and decorations, including lesser decorations such as campaign and service awards, when such awards may be cited in reliable sources to include official service records and discharge/retirement government documents. While there is still some contention about including these lists in articles, there are literally hundreds of Wikipeida articles on military and political figures that provide award lists in this fashion. With that said, I recommend the following:
As this talk page discussion has gotten grossly out of control, I have recommended the above thread by archived in an attempt to end this circular debate which was also starting to infringe upon WP:AGF, WP:CIV, and WP:NPA. I highly encourage subsequent comments should be made in an appropriate discussion page as follows:
I highly recommend that this talk page should not spin into another discussion about the merits of including award lists in Wikipedia articles. That is clearly outside the scope of this single article on Karl Wolff. - O.R. Comms 05:29, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
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After the war, Wolff was forced to leave the army after the reduction of the German armed forces following the terms imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. In December 1918 Wolff joined a Hessian Freikorps - sounds somewhat illogical. Leaving the army, December 1918, because of terms imposed end of June, 1919 - ? -- 129.187.244.19 ( talk) 05:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
This reads like pop-culture trivia, with sources to match and the language of: Wolff testified...; Wolff maintained... and weak arguments by a nn author. I propose that a shortened version be moved into "Later life" since these claims were popularised by the 1972 documentary. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:23, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Karl Wolff article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Please feel free to revise and expand on the issue of Wolff's knowledge of the Holocaust. -- Jstalin 17:02, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Who was involved in the later trial, because Treblinka was something that all humanity simply should be made aware of. 86.149.209.189 23:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
"...Despite this, he openly admits in the television documentary The World At War that he witnessed an execution of Jewish prisoners with Himmler, going so far as to describe the splatter of brains on Himmler's coat...." - There is no mentioning in the World at War episode of the ethnicity or reasons of the prisoners being shot. So please take out the "Jewish" from the article. -- 41.14.211.41 ( talk) 23:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
By any standard, Wolff gets a 'free pass' in this article - much as he did in life. There's no mention of the CIA's role in protecting him in the post-WW2 years.
I believe his son, Thorismond, also went into the advertising game and handled some big tobacco accounts in West Germany. Father and son, both dealers in death. Surely there's material for a TV special. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justwanderinby ( talk • contribs) 03:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Heydrich didn't have friend in the SS and not particulary with Wolff !!-- Bobybarman34 ( talk) 12:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Wolff continually displayed his anti-semitism throughout his career. After the war he was interviewed by CIC and others in the US Military, he made bigoted remarks as a matter of course. He complained about his inprisonment, whining about in comparison to the death of thousands of Jews. "A Jew is killed in the gas chamber in a few seconds, without having any idea or knowing it. My comrades and I have been allowed to die once every night for 21 months. This is much more Inhumane than the extermination used on the Jews. Too much has been grossly exaggerated." Jochen Von Lang, 'Top Nazi SS General Karl Wolff: the man between hitler and himmler,' New York, Enigma Books, 2005. Hesweeney ( talk) 21:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Please see the comparison to web content on http://ahnen.greyfalcon.us/rahn.html (sidebar). It matches word for word the unsourced content from this article. Sometimes it's hard to tell which content is the original one and which one is the mirror cite, but in this case I suspect that "greyfalcon" is the original source, due to unusual word choices such as "Messrs Heidemann and Kujau" and because of generally well rounded prose. Note that the "soap opera" content is not part of greyfalcon's narrative; it must have been added later.
I would like more opinions on this. K.e.coffman ( talk) 23:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
I've restored the awards section and added citations. There has been no less than four attempts in the past few months to blank this information. Karl Wolff is one of the most extensively researched of SS generals and his award information is of academic interest. If there is an effort to blank it, this needs to be discussed with consensus, especially since this is now cited information. - O.R. Comms 02:00, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
If there is further issue with this, the matter should really be taken up at the military history discussion boards to get consensus. Right now, this appears to be simply the opinion of a few users that these Nazi and SS awards are not noteworthy and should not be included, perhaps simply because they are SS and Nazi awards. There is no basis in Wikipedia policy for this; if there were, then by your own logic, we should be removing the National Defense Service Medal and Air Force Longevity Service Ribbon from all United States military articles. And what of all the service medals and colonial medals of the United Kingdom, to say nothing about the self imposed orders and people's medals of the communist regimes. As one can see, it doesn't stand up. This has also been discussed before and the blanking of Nazi Germany awards and decorations has always been frowned upon. - O.R. Comms 04:43, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Yours is not a "dead horse", but a horse of straw. In this discussion no one critical of the detailed awards section has implicated "that those adding them somehow favor the Nazis". That seems to be the universal way to fend off any argument by shedding a bad light on the other party. Neither did I suggest that this article is about "whitewash". I argued that awards are treated with an undue depth of detail. I also relied heavily on WP:SCHOLARSHIP, which is part of RS, and under the section headline Scholarship it reads Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible, which is very close to my wording "articles should rely on scholarly material when available". Further I refer to WP:INDISCRIMINATE: To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. And I do not know of an exception to WP:OR, according to which "veteran editor"s are to be trusted, because of good faith, and because they have personally reviewed the records directly at the Archives. So far I did not claim that "the official records are not to be trusted", although I should have, because dates which are found in personal files of SS-men are not per se correct. You don't have to believe me, of course, although I consider myself to be a "veteran editor" as well, but I can provide a citation by historian Dieter Pohl or just take notice of Rudolf Höß' date of birth. I have to say that I perceive tips and tricks for research trips to the National Archive in College Park as arrogant and disrespectful. Although there is a significant number of editors in support of award lists, I do not see a "general consensus" for such a broad proposal like "lesser decorations such as campaign and service awards" should be included, "when such awards may be cited in reliable sources to include official service records and discharge/retirement government documents". This means nothing else than: Anything goes, because these documents mention pretty much every award imaginable. But now I know how "general consensus" and certain "Wikipedia policies" come about.-- Assayer ( talk) 02:53, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
A list of awards is normal, but the SS Honour Ring and SS Julleuchter veer into the indiscriminate, since Wikipedia is geared towards the general reader, and not the collector of Third Reich memorabilia. There's nothing inherently informative about the SS ring, since (as I understand) all SS men received one. Various badges and non-combat decorations, such as the Memel Medal, could also go. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:09, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Re: "So, in fact, to have ether the SS ring or sword was considered an exceptional honor
" -- this does not jive with Wikipedia's own articles on the topic:
K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:25, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
I hope that answers some of the questions here for why these three items should stay in awards lists. - O.R. Comms 16:33, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
were not automatically given out", when ""in World War II virtually the entire SS leadership, including the Waffen-SS and Gestapo, had been given the ring" -- ? K.e.coffman ( talk) 07:29, 20 December 2016 (UTC
if they were issued to this fellow and we have a reliable source for it, there is no good reason why they shouldn't be listed" -- what would be the encyclopedic reason for doing so, if they are being cited to a primary source without any context? How does this enhance the reader's understanding of the subject?
were decorations for exceptional service to the SS which were personally presented by Himmler", while the Wikipedia article on the SS ring does not state that. I hope that OberRanks can clarify. K.e.coffman ( talk) 07:27, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
I have generally been of the opinion that except for long service awards (congrats you failed to quit or be killed!) or 'wounded' awards (congrats! you failed to duck!) awards/medals for X should be included. Only in death does duty end ( talk) 16:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
The result of the above discussion appears to be that Wikipedia articles should include lists of official state and military awards and decorations, including lesser decorations such as campaign and service awards, when such awards may be cited in reliable sources to include official service records and discharge/retirement government documents. While there is still some contention about including these lists in articles, there are literally hundreds of Wikipeida articles on military and political figures that provide award lists in this fashion. With that said, I recommend the following:
As this talk page discussion has gotten grossly out of control, I have recommended the above thread by archived in an attempt to end this circular debate which was also starting to infringe upon WP:AGF, WP:CIV, and WP:NPA. I highly encourage subsequent comments should be made in an appropriate discussion page as follows:
I highly recommend that this talk page should not spin into another discussion about the merits of including award lists in Wikipedia articles. That is clearly outside the scope of this single article on Karl Wolff. - O.R. Comms 05:29, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Karl Wolff. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
After the war, Wolff was forced to leave the army after the reduction of the German armed forces following the terms imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. In December 1918 Wolff joined a Hessian Freikorps - sounds somewhat illogical. Leaving the army, December 1918, because of terms imposed end of June, 1919 - ? -- 129.187.244.19 ( talk) 05:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
This reads like pop-culture trivia, with sources to match and the language of: Wolff testified...; Wolff maintained... and weak arguments by a nn author. I propose that a shortened version be moved into "Later life" since these claims were popularised by the 1972 documentary. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:23, 5 January 2020 (UTC)