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Hate to be a nudge, but isn't the name of the band "Carpenters" as opposed to "The Carpenters"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.248.203 ( talk) 20:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
In the section about her early life it states:
She and Richard made their first recordings in 1965 and 1966. The following year, Karen began dieting. Under a doctor's guidance Karen, who stood 5'5" and weighed 145 pounds, went on the Stillman Diet. She rigorously ate lean foods, drank 8 glasses of water a day, and avoided fatty foods. By September 1975, Karen's weight dropped to 91 pounds.
I have a little problem with this paragraph. Was she dieting on the Stillman Diet from 1967-1975 and lost the 54 lbs over the 8 years? Or did she go on the diet sometime in 1975 to lose the weight? It might be clear to others, but I am a bit confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.154.232.44 ( talk) 21:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Karen went on the Stillman Water Diet in 1966 to 1967. She lost 25 pounds going from 145 to 120. She remained at 120 untill 1974 when she started to diet again and that was the beginning of her slide in to anorexia. Hope that clears that misconception up for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.87.87 ( talk) 08:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
There's another confusing statement here. Right now, this section contains: "She was 5' 4" (163 cm) in height and before dieting weighed 145 pounds (66 kg; 10 st 5 lb) and afterwards weighed 120 pounds (54 kg; 8 st 8 lb) until 1973, when the Carpenters' career began to take off." The 1973 date might be correct about her dieting, but the band's career took off in 1970. By 1973, they were a well-established, highly successful act. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.170.130.105 ( talk) 23:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I think it is odd that this article completely lacks any assessment of her singing by her contemporaries. I mean, isn't that why she was famous to begin with? It was her singing not her anorexia. This article can be summarized as "she was born, sang some songs, made some albums, and died from anorexia". Angry bee ( talk) 06:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't know enough about Karen Carpenter to feel comfortable editing this article, but I think her divorce is mentioned too suddenly. We have:
Then, two paragraphs later, out of the blue, we have her finalizing her divorce!
No mention of her marriage being in difficulties. No mention of starting divorce proceedings.
Also, the article is inconsistent, calling her Karen sometimes, and Carpenter sometimes. Girlwithgreeneyes ( talk) 21:22, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
in response to another person who mentioned the sudden divorce, I created a new paragraph discussing this. I really hope this does NOT get deleted, I would like to say I spent months reading and researching and studying Karen Carpenter. I am pretty knowledgeable in this topic and every article I've read have said the same story — Preceding unsigned comment added by KarenCarpenterFan ( talk • contribs) 02:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Karen Carpenter was set to finalize her divorce the day she died. I think the source is here. http://rockstarmartyr.net/february-4-the-death-day-of-karen-carpenter-2/ I am looking for other sites though. Entertainer91 ( talk) 08:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
No, he never inherited any of her money, because Karen revised her will two months prior to their separation to stipulate that in the event of her death, everything would be inherited by Richard and their parents, and according to a 2016 documentary, Tom would only get the house and its contents. 203.221.128.210 ( talk) 00:38, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
A recent edit made by myself was reverted by an unregistered editor. The purpose of my edit was to remove hyperbolic language and unreferenced claims. Reverting my edit reinserted these. The following points explain in more detail the rationale behind my edit:
There are various other amendments I made in a similar vein. The act of reverting my edit resulted in an article which contravenes Wikipedia policies, therefore I have reinstated my changes. PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 20:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I've removed a repeatedly re-added sentence about Carpenter's ancestry as the source is not a recognised reliable source. PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 12:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
I corrected the two links to tribute sites which were not working, but I wonder if these sites should be there, since Wiki is not a "link farm", as some people say. Maybe they should be deleted. What about a link to her singing a song on YouTube, ie Ave Maria? Anyone have any views?
Sardaka ( talk) 10:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
This is for those who are looking for a place to discuss anything related to Karen Carpenter. this group is like a family and the core of the group has been together since 2003 from the old Carpenters Online forum: https://www.facebook.com/groups/321040037161/ rickhenry
Shouldn't it be more appropriately (and in line with Wikipedia custom) called "Legacy"? "After death" seems macabre, makes it sound like she came back from the dead or something. Kumagoro-42 02:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumagoro-42 ( talk • contribs)
This new "cause of death" category has to be reconsidered as well. Do we really need two paragraphs on some obscure medical controversy over Ipecac? The cause of death has already been sufficiently established and explained. I move to strike the entire section as irrelevant and off topic. In other words, it adds nothing of value to the biography of Karen Carpenter.
SamJohn2013 (
talk) 00:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
"She had a contralto vocal range" is simply the wrong syntax in terms of professional voice classification. You do not have a "soprano", "alto", or "contralto" range. You ARE a soprano, alto or contralto. Your range is a specific series of notes, irrespective of your voice classification (in this case, contralto, which is still arguable). This needs to be removed. Her voice should speak for itself, especially since classical voice types are never applicable in popular music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEB1:9BE0:C124:4254:98E:9C11 ( talk) 04:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
In the "Music career" section it says that she played "bass guitar" (aka electric bass) but then it says that "her guitar playing is heard on the original album(s)". So which is it ---- bass or guitar or both? --- Dagme ( talk) 01:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
The section also says that Richard Carpenter substituted Joe Osborne (sic) for Karen in the above referenced "guitar" lines. It appears to me that the reference is to Joe Osborn, a bass player associated with the carpenters. So most likely it should be bass, not guitar, and the "e" should be removed from the end of Osborn's name. I hope that some expert will step forward and make the required corrections. --- Dagme ( talk) 01:40, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Here's a link to a photograph of Karen Carpenter playing the electric bass guitar. http://leadsister.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/stewart-6-1024x655.jpg You can see it for yourself. There are probably no other photos, or film, of Karen playing the guitar. 72.224.127.146 ( talk) 01:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC) Bennett Turk 72.224.127.146 ( talk) 01:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
There is no need to specify it was "Karen Carpenter's funeral" at the start of the 5th paragraph of the 'Health and death' section, because the previous line states "She was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital at 9:51 a.m". Thus just "Carpenter's funeral" will suffice. PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 00:09, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Your actions are both hasty and inappropriate. One day on the talk page does not indicate a "no response."
The correct response is clearly stated in the Wikipedia: Manual of Style/ Biographies, Section 2.2.2, People with the same surname.
"To distinguish between people with the same surname in the same article or page, use given names or complete names to refer to each of the people upon first mention. For subsequent uses, refer to them by their given names for clarity and brevity."
Examples are given which clearly illustrate the principle, and in this case there is no doubt of the possible confusion of Karen and Richard, being as they are inseparably linked as "The Carpenters." The sentence is given the gravity and importance that it deserves, while just "Carpenter" is crude and disrespectful. And if one were to strictly adhere to editorial policy, the name Karen would be used even more frequently in the text.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#People_with_the_same_surname
SamJohn2013 ( talk) 03:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems our point of dispute here is whether or not Karen, as one of "The Carpenters" (both band and family) is to be considered a special case. I have expressed my reasons why the given name is better in this particular sentence. "Carpenter" is used almost exclusively throughout the article, her death must be made personal to her: "Karen Carpenter died" sounds so much better than "Carpenter died." Especially when, in the very next sentence, we are faced with such absurdities as "Newton-John, Clark and Warwick."
Editing for style requires so much much more than an eye for bad copy. It requires an ear: for dissonance, for tone, repetition and flow. It should strive to hold the listener's attention and interest as well as the reader's. Let us never forget that the written word is merely the sheet music for our language.
It is obvious you disagree, but we must allow other interested editors to examine the context themselves. I know you are trying to maintain the pure encyclopedic tone, but in an article like this, some emotion and human feeling must be allowed. I am certainly not advocating that given names be used frequently in the text. This is a rarely seen combination (and possible confusion) of a family name with an entertainment "brand name." I move that the exception be granted.
Lastly, it would seem to me that at least 2-3 weeks on the talk page would be necessary for discussion until a final change is made. SamJohn2013 ( talk) 14:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: The Rambling Man ( talk · contribs) 21:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Crikey, I think it was ages ago I improved this, and I don't have the book sources to hand any more. If anything relating to criteria 2 crops up, hopefully I'll be able to find alternatives. Still, a month ago I was booked to do a band rehearsal, and there was a woman having a drum lesson beforehand, who came out and, in conversation, said that (in her view) Karen Carpenter was the best female drummer ever, which means this is probably a good target for Women in Green.
Ritchie333
(talk)
(cont) 22:12, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Comment notelist
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Notes
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Okay, I think the other issues are addressed, unless I've missed anything? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
New research shows that women who were born in the spring were many times more likely to develop anorexia. As this study shows, the worst month is March, which is when she was born.
Pubmed: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093677/ Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201107/season-birth-and-anorexia
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Karen Carpenter article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Karen Carpenter has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on February 4, 2019. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
To-do list for Karen Carpenter:
Priority 1 (top)
|
Hate to be a nudge, but isn't the name of the band "Carpenters" as opposed to "The Carpenters"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.248.203 ( talk) 20:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
In the section about her early life it states:
She and Richard made their first recordings in 1965 and 1966. The following year, Karen began dieting. Under a doctor's guidance Karen, who stood 5'5" and weighed 145 pounds, went on the Stillman Diet. She rigorously ate lean foods, drank 8 glasses of water a day, and avoided fatty foods. By September 1975, Karen's weight dropped to 91 pounds.
I have a little problem with this paragraph. Was she dieting on the Stillman Diet from 1967-1975 and lost the 54 lbs over the 8 years? Or did she go on the diet sometime in 1975 to lose the weight? It might be clear to others, but I am a bit confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.154.232.44 ( talk) 21:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Karen went on the Stillman Water Diet in 1966 to 1967. She lost 25 pounds going from 145 to 120. She remained at 120 untill 1974 when she started to diet again and that was the beginning of her slide in to anorexia. Hope that clears that misconception up for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.87.87 ( talk) 08:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
There's another confusing statement here. Right now, this section contains: "She was 5' 4" (163 cm) in height and before dieting weighed 145 pounds (66 kg; 10 st 5 lb) and afterwards weighed 120 pounds (54 kg; 8 st 8 lb) until 1973, when the Carpenters' career began to take off." The 1973 date might be correct about her dieting, but the band's career took off in 1970. By 1973, they were a well-established, highly successful act. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.170.130.105 ( talk) 23:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I think it is odd that this article completely lacks any assessment of her singing by her contemporaries. I mean, isn't that why she was famous to begin with? It was her singing not her anorexia. This article can be summarized as "she was born, sang some songs, made some albums, and died from anorexia". Angry bee ( talk) 06:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't know enough about Karen Carpenter to feel comfortable editing this article, but I think her divorce is mentioned too suddenly. We have:
Then, two paragraphs later, out of the blue, we have her finalizing her divorce!
No mention of her marriage being in difficulties. No mention of starting divorce proceedings.
Also, the article is inconsistent, calling her Karen sometimes, and Carpenter sometimes. Girlwithgreeneyes ( talk) 21:22, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
in response to another person who mentioned the sudden divorce, I created a new paragraph discussing this. I really hope this does NOT get deleted, I would like to say I spent months reading and researching and studying Karen Carpenter. I am pretty knowledgeable in this topic and every article I've read have said the same story — Preceding unsigned comment added by KarenCarpenterFan ( talk • contribs) 02:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Karen Carpenter was set to finalize her divorce the day she died. I think the source is here. http://rockstarmartyr.net/february-4-the-death-day-of-karen-carpenter-2/ I am looking for other sites though. Entertainer91 ( talk) 08:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
No, he never inherited any of her money, because Karen revised her will two months prior to their separation to stipulate that in the event of her death, everything would be inherited by Richard and their parents, and according to a 2016 documentary, Tom would only get the house and its contents. 203.221.128.210 ( talk) 00:38, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
A recent edit made by myself was reverted by an unregistered editor. The purpose of my edit was to remove hyperbolic language and unreferenced claims. Reverting my edit reinserted these. The following points explain in more detail the rationale behind my edit:
There are various other amendments I made in a similar vein. The act of reverting my edit resulted in an article which contravenes Wikipedia policies, therefore I have reinstated my changes. PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 20:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I've removed a repeatedly re-added sentence about Carpenter's ancestry as the source is not a recognised reliable source. PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 12:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
I corrected the two links to tribute sites which were not working, but I wonder if these sites should be there, since Wiki is not a "link farm", as some people say. Maybe they should be deleted. What about a link to her singing a song on YouTube, ie Ave Maria? Anyone have any views?
Sardaka ( talk) 10:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
This is for those who are looking for a place to discuss anything related to Karen Carpenter. this group is like a family and the core of the group has been together since 2003 from the old Carpenters Online forum: https://www.facebook.com/groups/321040037161/ rickhenry
Shouldn't it be more appropriately (and in line with Wikipedia custom) called "Legacy"? "After death" seems macabre, makes it sound like she came back from the dead or something. Kumagoro-42 02:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumagoro-42 ( talk • contribs)
This new "cause of death" category has to be reconsidered as well. Do we really need two paragraphs on some obscure medical controversy over Ipecac? The cause of death has already been sufficiently established and explained. I move to strike the entire section as irrelevant and off topic. In other words, it adds nothing of value to the biography of Karen Carpenter.
SamJohn2013 (
talk) 00:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
"She had a contralto vocal range" is simply the wrong syntax in terms of professional voice classification. You do not have a "soprano", "alto", or "contralto" range. You ARE a soprano, alto or contralto. Your range is a specific series of notes, irrespective of your voice classification (in this case, contralto, which is still arguable). This needs to be removed. Her voice should speak for itself, especially since classical voice types are never applicable in popular music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEB1:9BE0:C124:4254:98E:9C11 ( talk) 04:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
In the "Music career" section it says that she played "bass guitar" (aka electric bass) but then it says that "her guitar playing is heard on the original album(s)". So which is it ---- bass or guitar or both? --- Dagme ( talk) 01:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
The section also says that Richard Carpenter substituted Joe Osborne (sic) for Karen in the above referenced "guitar" lines. It appears to me that the reference is to Joe Osborn, a bass player associated with the carpenters. So most likely it should be bass, not guitar, and the "e" should be removed from the end of Osborn's name. I hope that some expert will step forward and make the required corrections. --- Dagme ( talk) 01:40, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Here's a link to a photograph of Karen Carpenter playing the electric bass guitar. http://leadsister.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/stewart-6-1024x655.jpg You can see it for yourself. There are probably no other photos, or film, of Karen playing the guitar. 72.224.127.146 ( talk) 01:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC) Bennett Turk 72.224.127.146 ( talk) 01:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
There is no need to specify it was "Karen Carpenter's funeral" at the start of the 5th paragraph of the 'Health and death' section, because the previous line states "She was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital at 9:51 a.m". Thus just "Carpenter's funeral" will suffice. PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 00:09, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Your actions are both hasty and inappropriate. One day on the talk page does not indicate a "no response."
The correct response is clearly stated in the Wikipedia: Manual of Style/ Biographies, Section 2.2.2, People with the same surname.
"To distinguish between people with the same surname in the same article or page, use given names or complete names to refer to each of the people upon first mention. For subsequent uses, refer to them by their given names for clarity and brevity."
Examples are given which clearly illustrate the principle, and in this case there is no doubt of the possible confusion of Karen and Richard, being as they are inseparably linked as "The Carpenters." The sentence is given the gravity and importance that it deserves, while just "Carpenter" is crude and disrespectful. And if one were to strictly adhere to editorial policy, the name Karen would be used even more frequently in the text.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#People_with_the_same_surname
SamJohn2013 ( talk) 03:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems our point of dispute here is whether or not Karen, as one of "The Carpenters" (both band and family) is to be considered a special case. I have expressed my reasons why the given name is better in this particular sentence. "Carpenter" is used almost exclusively throughout the article, her death must be made personal to her: "Karen Carpenter died" sounds so much better than "Carpenter died." Especially when, in the very next sentence, we are faced with such absurdities as "Newton-John, Clark and Warwick."
Editing for style requires so much much more than an eye for bad copy. It requires an ear: for dissonance, for tone, repetition and flow. It should strive to hold the listener's attention and interest as well as the reader's. Let us never forget that the written word is merely the sheet music for our language.
It is obvious you disagree, but we must allow other interested editors to examine the context themselves. I know you are trying to maintain the pure encyclopedic tone, but in an article like this, some emotion and human feeling must be allowed. I am certainly not advocating that given names be used frequently in the text. This is a rarely seen combination (and possible confusion) of a family name with an entertainment "brand name." I move that the exception be granted.
Lastly, it would seem to me that at least 2-3 weeks on the talk page would be necessary for discussion until a final change is made. SamJohn2013 ( talk) 14:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: The Rambling Man ( talk · contribs) 21:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Crikey, I think it was ages ago I improved this, and I don't have the book sources to hand any more. If anything relating to criteria 2 crops up, hopefully I'll be able to find alternatives. Still, a month ago I was booked to do a band rehearsal, and there was a woman having a drum lesson beforehand, who came out and, in conversation, said that (in her view) Karen Carpenter was the best female drummer ever, which means this is probably a good target for Women in Green.
Ritchie333
(talk)
(cont) 22:12, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Comment notelist
|
---|
Notes
|
Okay, I think the other issues are addressed, unless I've missed anything? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
New research shows that women who were born in the spring were many times more likely to develop anorexia. As this study shows, the worst month is March, which is when she was born.
Pubmed: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093677/ Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201107/season-birth-and-anorexia