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This article about Karelia, the historical province of Sweden should not be the main article. I demand we make Karelia a disambiguation page. This article is in the past, the current Russian republic is NOW. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Nagy ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 7 March 2004 (UTC)
If no one responds, I will take matters into my own hands, as I have done with Avars. - User:Dagestan 07:11, 24 March 2004 (UTC)
The problem IS, that the discussion on Talk:Republic of Karelia is dead! No one has been posting there since January. Please, there are more important things than the historical povince of Sweden. - User:Dagestan 16:03, 24 March 2004 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea to lable this article " Karelia (Swedish Province)? Should there come one " Karelia (Province of Finland)" also?
I really don't know what's best, but I lean at thinking that Finland (the Grand Duchy aswell as the independent republic) was a direct successor of the undivided Sweden, and hence that the loss of Old Finland is insignificant in this case, and that Karelia (province) would be to prefer. / Tuomas 16:21, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
There is ongoing discussion at Talk:Republic of Karelia on what the content at [[Karelia]] should be. I believe that this process is working well and there is an alternative article at Karelia/temp which is coming along nicely. Any attempt to unilaterally circumvent this process and disallowing participation with a proper resolution is unacceptable. It is unfortunate that the individual generally wishing to disrupt this page seems to have very little to contribute or to articulate when it comes to dealing in a cooperative mode on resolving the question. -- Mic 23:13, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
What "individulal" are you talking about here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dagestan ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
IMO the page may sit for a while under the neutal title Karelia (historical province). It doesn't say whose province it was, and it is good, since we have 3 (or 2, if one thinks taht Sw/Fin are not really competitors) contenders here over quite a time. Also, it is convenient to make links to this name from simply "Karelia" via the "|" trick. If better ideas pop up, we can move again. Also, as you may notice I cleaned the wealth of redirect litter. It still remains to disambig the direct Karelia links, but these are of no big harm. Mikkalai 05:49, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
The idea to have articles to "sit for a while" under intermediary titles is nothing I would approve or applaud. Quite the contrary. It only means extra work. Please move this page to Finnish Karelia, which as far as I can tell is the outcome of the discussion on which name to chose for the article.
Please move the article at Karelia/temp to Karelia at the same time. (One has to be administrator to do that. Actually, this is the first time I can remember during my time at Wikipedia that I would have been glad to have that capacity.)
Then there are dozens of links to
Karelia that has to be changed to [[Finnish Karelia|...]].
--
Ruhrjung 03:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
I believe that all parties, less one individual, are trying to be constructive here. I have also operated on the basic assumption that all parties that working constructively on the case have had the best intentions, aiming to resolve the matter in a consensus fashion. I believe that we were about to achieve consensus on moving the Karelia article, setting a new designation for it and finally replacing it with the article developed at Karelia/temp.
In my opinion, we had (even if we were close) not arrived there. The clearest example of this is that we currently have the original article hanging in the balance, without a clear designation. I think it is unfortunate and highly inappropriate to circumvent the decision making process in this way. Unilateral action, taken even with the best intentions is a breach against consensus.
Appreciating that consensus and resolution on the issue is likely to have been very close, it would be a pity having to call in mediation at this stage. In some sense we are also past the voting stage, since that really is what should have been called in instead of taking unilateral action. For the voting to have any sense of meaning, it would presuppose a restoration of the articles to their original positions and I think that it would be less than desirable, even though it might be the most appropriate course of action.
The present situation is untenable however and the given designation is neither neutral nor appropriate. The article will be relocated to Finnish Karelia. Should there be any objecting calls to this move I can see no recourse than to restore the articles to their original places and take a vote on the issue. The designation of the article can however be raised again, but from within that location.
Even if we have been plagued by vandalism and general uncooperativeness from one nameless party I think that most actions and input have been of a constructive nature. However, I am very sorry to see how we ultimately resort to resolving the matter in this sloppy fashion. -- Mic 17:16, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
So why this link is in this page? Kahkonen 18:40, 2004 May 26 (UTC)
There are a number of standing issues for structure of the article and its relations to corresponding articles. It belongs to the series of Swedish and Finnish historical provinces and which by template make reference to current, either Swedish, or in this case Finnish administrative entities. At one point there was an idea of being able to carry both Swedish/Finnish as well as Russian aspects of Karelia and also Russian entities and various other aspects were added. As this no longer is the case the article reverts to covering the Finnish administrative entities by template. Russian entities will still remain in reference on several locations in text. The article should also accomodate reference to the various different articles related to Karelia, not currently covered. -- Mic 17:59, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
Name: After additional thinking I am withdrawing my objections posted above. But there is another one: aren't the definitions "Russian Karelia" and "Finnish Karelia" are degrading or humiliating in a way? I think not really, but could that be an isuue to a more involved side? Mikkalai 18:23, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
refered as occupied terretories as they are no less so than Chechnya, East Prussia, Palestine, Iraq so on, taken by force and injustice by brutal nation of barbarians under yoke of the most brutal dictator that ever poised this earth, a wrong yet to be corrected. Ethnic cleansing also took place there and the area in now infested with colonialists, pretty much like Russia would have been dealt with had Germany won the war, you know, the population deported away or eliminated and the lands infested with their own population that is unnative to the lands. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.215.244.106 ( talk) 12:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
If this article must exist, it should remain where it is. WP:Names is very clear: English names must be used. Karjala is in English Karelia, thus the article must be located according to its English name. This has been discussed before with Turku and Pori County and in Toponyms of Finland. -- MPorciusCato ( talk) 19:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
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Why the Swedish name is mentioned in the introduction? Velivieras ( talk) 09:23, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
What the heck is Kimi Räikkönen doing in the people section? Kimi Räikkönen was born over three decades after the cession of Finnish Karelia, in Espoo, which is nowhere near Karelia. Was this vandalism? JIP | Talk 11:38, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm proposing splitting parts of this article ("Inhabitants" and maybe "Culture" as well?) to a separate article, which could be named named something like Karelians (Finns), for example, in similar spirit as we have articles for other Finnish subgroups. It would be an equivalent to fi:Karjalaiset and ru:Карелы (субэтнос финнов). -- Vilutar ( talk) 18:17, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
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This article about Karelia, the historical province of Sweden should not be the main article. I demand we make Karelia a disambiguation page. This article is in the past, the current Russian republic is NOW. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Nagy ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 7 March 2004 (UTC)
If no one responds, I will take matters into my own hands, as I have done with Avars. - User:Dagestan 07:11, 24 March 2004 (UTC)
The problem IS, that the discussion on Talk:Republic of Karelia is dead! No one has been posting there since January. Please, there are more important things than the historical povince of Sweden. - User:Dagestan 16:03, 24 March 2004 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea to lable this article " Karelia (Swedish Province)? Should there come one " Karelia (Province of Finland)" also?
I really don't know what's best, but I lean at thinking that Finland (the Grand Duchy aswell as the independent republic) was a direct successor of the undivided Sweden, and hence that the loss of Old Finland is insignificant in this case, and that Karelia (province) would be to prefer. / Tuomas 16:21, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
There is ongoing discussion at Talk:Republic of Karelia on what the content at [[Karelia]] should be. I believe that this process is working well and there is an alternative article at Karelia/temp which is coming along nicely. Any attempt to unilaterally circumvent this process and disallowing participation with a proper resolution is unacceptable. It is unfortunate that the individual generally wishing to disrupt this page seems to have very little to contribute or to articulate when it comes to dealing in a cooperative mode on resolving the question. -- Mic 23:13, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
What "individulal" are you talking about here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dagestan ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
IMO the page may sit for a while under the neutal title Karelia (historical province). It doesn't say whose province it was, and it is good, since we have 3 (or 2, if one thinks taht Sw/Fin are not really competitors) contenders here over quite a time. Also, it is convenient to make links to this name from simply "Karelia" via the "|" trick. If better ideas pop up, we can move again. Also, as you may notice I cleaned the wealth of redirect litter. It still remains to disambig the direct Karelia links, but these are of no big harm. Mikkalai 05:49, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
The idea to have articles to "sit for a while" under intermediary titles is nothing I would approve or applaud. Quite the contrary. It only means extra work. Please move this page to Finnish Karelia, which as far as I can tell is the outcome of the discussion on which name to chose for the article.
Please move the article at Karelia/temp to Karelia at the same time. (One has to be administrator to do that. Actually, this is the first time I can remember during my time at Wikipedia that I would have been glad to have that capacity.)
Then there are dozens of links to
Karelia that has to be changed to [[Finnish Karelia|...]].
--
Ruhrjung 03:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
I believe that all parties, less one individual, are trying to be constructive here. I have also operated on the basic assumption that all parties that working constructively on the case have had the best intentions, aiming to resolve the matter in a consensus fashion. I believe that we were about to achieve consensus on moving the Karelia article, setting a new designation for it and finally replacing it with the article developed at Karelia/temp.
In my opinion, we had (even if we were close) not arrived there. The clearest example of this is that we currently have the original article hanging in the balance, without a clear designation. I think it is unfortunate and highly inappropriate to circumvent the decision making process in this way. Unilateral action, taken even with the best intentions is a breach against consensus.
Appreciating that consensus and resolution on the issue is likely to have been very close, it would be a pity having to call in mediation at this stage. In some sense we are also past the voting stage, since that really is what should have been called in instead of taking unilateral action. For the voting to have any sense of meaning, it would presuppose a restoration of the articles to their original positions and I think that it would be less than desirable, even though it might be the most appropriate course of action.
The present situation is untenable however and the given designation is neither neutral nor appropriate. The article will be relocated to Finnish Karelia. Should there be any objecting calls to this move I can see no recourse than to restore the articles to their original places and take a vote on the issue. The designation of the article can however be raised again, but from within that location.
Even if we have been plagued by vandalism and general uncooperativeness from one nameless party I think that most actions and input have been of a constructive nature. However, I am very sorry to see how we ultimately resort to resolving the matter in this sloppy fashion. -- Mic 17:16, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
So why this link is in this page? Kahkonen 18:40, 2004 May 26 (UTC)
There are a number of standing issues for structure of the article and its relations to corresponding articles. It belongs to the series of Swedish and Finnish historical provinces and which by template make reference to current, either Swedish, or in this case Finnish administrative entities. At one point there was an idea of being able to carry both Swedish/Finnish as well as Russian aspects of Karelia and also Russian entities and various other aspects were added. As this no longer is the case the article reverts to covering the Finnish administrative entities by template. Russian entities will still remain in reference on several locations in text. The article should also accomodate reference to the various different articles related to Karelia, not currently covered. -- Mic 17:59, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
Name: After additional thinking I am withdrawing my objections posted above. But there is another one: aren't the definitions "Russian Karelia" and "Finnish Karelia" are degrading or humiliating in a way? I think not really, but could that be an isuue to a more involved side? Mikkalai 18:23, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
refered as occupied terretories as they are no less so than Chechnya, East Prussia, Palestine, Iraq so on, taken by force and injustice by brutal nation of barbarians under yoke of the most brutal dictator that ever poised this earth, a wrong yet to be corrected. Ethnic cleansing also took place there and the area in now infested with colonialists, pretty much like Russia would have been dealt with had Germany won the war, you know, the population deported away or eliminated and the lands infested with their own population that is unnative to the lands. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.215.244.106 ( talk) 12:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
If this article must exist, it should remain where it is. WP:Names is very clear: English names must be used. Karjala is in English Karelia, thus the article must be located according to its English name. This has been discussed before with Turku and Pori County and in Toponyms of Finland. -- MPorciusCato ( talk) 19:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Historical province of Karelia in Finland.png, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Other speedy deletions
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 08:19, 29 November 2011 (UTC) |
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Why the Swedish name is mentioned in the introduction? Velivieras ( talk) 09:23, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
What the heck is Kimi Räikkönen doing in the people section? Kimi Räikkönen was born over three decades after the cession of Finnish Karelia, in Espoo, which is nowhere near Karelia. Was this vandalism? JIP | Talk 11:38, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm proposing splitting parts of this article ("Inhabitants" and maybe "Culture" as well?) to a separate article, which could be named named something like Karelians (Finns), for example, in similar spirit as we have articles for other Finnish subgroups. It would be an equivalent to fi:Karjalaiset and ru:Карелы (субэтнос финнов). -- Vilutar ( talk) 18:17, 15 February 2022 (UTC)