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It is not true that the founder of the Karaman beylik was armenian. The founder of the Karaman beylik was an Turkmen bey (warlord). Therefore I have removed that part, to be sure I have checked a few books and found absolute no reference of armenian origins of the Karaman beylik.
You are completely wrong, there is no evidence pointing to this in seljuk or other Turkish chronicles of its time. There is absolutely no evidence in any Turkish history book and no historian has ever claimed that. During the seljuk times the lingua franga of the seljuk bureaucracie was persian and arab, the common public spoke turkish but the elites spoke persian and arab. It was Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey who after declaring independence from the seljuk empire that Turkish was the sole language of the nation. His exact words were "From now on Turkish wil be spoken in the medrese (schools), in the mosques and by the elites" in 1291. There is no credibility of the claim that he has armenian roots at all, Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was a fierce Turkish nationalist, it is because of him that Turkish language prevailed in Anatolia. Therefore I have removed the outrageous lie.
The karaman clan has its roots in central asia, they were one of the many Turkish (Turkmen) clans to enter anatolia after the battle of manzikert. There are many Turkish sources pointing to this. Most Turkish sources and historians have this to write about the Karamanogullari dynasty. "Karamanogullari dynasty was from Nure Sufi Bey who was the son of Ahmed Sâdeddin Bey, one of the beys of Kacar tribe among Oguz people. Nûre Sûfî Bey was married with the paternal aunt of Eretna Bey."
Nuri Sufi Bey's actual name is Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin, meaning Nûre Sûfî the son of Sâdeddin. Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin was a clan leader of this Turkmen (Turcoman) tribe who had left central asia their homeland fleeing the mongols. First they went to Iran and from there to Azerbaidjan and then they went to the seljuk empire were Sultan Alâeddin Keykubad (1220-1237) setled them in Ermenek vilâyet (province). After Nûre Sûfî's dead Kerimüddin Karaman his son became the clan leader, it was he Kerimüddin Karaman wo is attributed as the founder of the Karaman dynasty.
It clearly says that they were oguz Turks belonging to the larger Kacar clan, the kacars still exist to this day in Turkey and in some parts of Iran.
Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was also not the founder of the karamanoglu dynasty.
If anybody wants information about it please mail me (dennis_73@hotmail.com) Im more than willing to provide evidence. I have read many Turkish and non Turkish historians none of them claimed this, I wonder where Encyclopædia Britannica got his information from is there a reference???? Orrin 73
Here is a reference I found about Karamanoglu dynasty. In time I will provide more! http://212.174.26.236/goksu/regionalhistory.html http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_01_26.htm
Encyclopædia Britannica makes the mistake by probably referencing historians Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi. A scientific research done by Historian Şehabettin Tekindağ in 1947 found out that Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi made the mistake of misunderstanding Ebu'l-Fidâ. Where they came to the conlusion that the karamanids were armenians. Şehabettin Tekindağ and some other historians have disproven that fact. Here is a credible source from a Turkish university about the issue, altough the reference is written in Turkish hopefully it will be translated in English sometime in the future. http://www.cumhuriyet.edu.tr/akademik/fak_ilahiyat/der3/3arboyacioglu.htm
You guys were all right. Thanks for clearing it up. It was hust Armenian propaganda, because an Armenian first told me that he was Armenian and that it is referenced in the Encyclopaedia Britannica... I'll have to think before trusting propaganda-driven Armenians again, especially in matters which can easily provoke hostile Armenian Genocide discussions and Armenian vs. Turk wars. Mmm, I don't get why they have a grudge on the Turks. I mean, the people were and are not at fault, as they did not carry out the genocide nor did they co-operate. There is no reason to apologize. :/ Eiríkr Rauði 17:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Re-added the flag of Karamans. 193.140.194.103 09:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Did a bit of copy-editing. IMO, the article could use a few more dates to show when key events occurred. Mary Read 06:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Error, rebooting universe... Am I drunk, or did I just see a flag with the Star of David as the flag of the Karamans?? I hope that some one can bring concrete harder than a rock references for that one. I just looked at the Candaroglu article that has the same flag, I looked at the reasoning behind it, however, we still should have good sources for that one.. Baristarim 15:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
http://www.fahnenversand.de/fotw/misc/tr~barb.jpg
Is this that strange? I dont think so, because the majority of the turks who came to anatolia were from the khazar empire and strangely the khazar empire had jewish as a state religion. So it does not surprise me at all. Secondly, there are names like Cohen in jewish which mean Kahan, which refers to the Khazar empire and names like Bunjamin in turkish which are not used by arabs etc. It would be nice if azeri's, turks in turkey and the jews in europe and israel to be tested for their relationship. 77.248.185.43 ( talk) 16:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is very confusing to me. For example:
If the problem is related to English skills, I would be happy to help. MapMaster 23:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. I added a map.
I provided proof in my previous posts, why was it changed? Orrin_73 —Preceding comment was added at 19:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Karaman was a Turk. The chauvinism above is inappropriate. Aramgar ( talk) 23:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
This star was used by many Islamic emirates. It is not the Jewish symbol, Star of David, since it is called Seal of Suleiman (Süleyman Mührü). We can see the flags of Karamanoğlu, Candaroğlu and Dulkadir from The Catalan Atlas of 1375.
Turkish explanation for Turkish users who think that the flag symbolizes Judaism: Söz konusu bayrak sandığınız gibi İsrail bayrağı değildir. 1375 tarihli haritada pek çok beylik ve emirliğin bayrakları çizilmiştir. Söz konusu haritaya yukarıda ulaşabilirsiniz. Benzer şekilde Candaroğullarının bayrağı da kırmızı Süleyman Mührü içerir: . Bununla birlikte yukarıda görebildiğiniz üzere aynı yıldız Barbaros Hayrettin Paşa tarafından da kullanılmış olup, Osmanlı camilerinin içinde dahi görülmesiyle İslami bir simge olduğu sabittir. Yani bu yıldız yahudiliği değil, aksine müslümanlığı simgelemektedir. Bu yıldızın yahudi simgesi olması son 100-200 sene öncedir. Camilerin içine çizilen bir simge nasıl olur da yahudi simgesi olur? Selçuklu eserlerini, Osmanlı eserlerini inceleyiniz. Lütfen bayrağın Yahudi bayrağını olduğunu iddia edip ikide bir silmeyiniz. Ailenize sormanız bir şey ifade etmiyor, zira hiçbir yakınınız 1375 yılında yaşamadı ve Karaman ailesi Osmanlılar tarafından 1500'lü yıllarda dağıtılmıştır. Eskiye dair bir şey kalmaması doğaldır. Wikipedia kişisel iddialar üzerinden değil, kaynaklara dayanarak yürümektedir. Bu tartışma daha önce yapılmış ve sonlanmıştı, lütfen elinizde sağlam bir kaynak yoksa tartışmayı sürdürmeyiniz. Kaygtr ( talk) 23:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
You can try to improve the article translating from catalan version (see the biography of each ruler). Catalan is very close to french language (and still more close to the occitan language).-- 83.33.222.102 ( talk) 13:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
The article states that "Karaman expanded his territories by capturing castles in Ermenek, Mut, Ereğli, Gülnar, Mer, and Silifke." Now, five of these locations are well known. But where is Mer ? I followed the link which directed me to an disambiguation page. In that page there are only two locations named Mer, one in France and one in Australia. Obviously Mer is a misnomer. Can it be Mara ? In that case either the original name Mara, or the present name of the village Kırobası must be used. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed that Alâeddin Ali Bey married to Nefise Sultan, the daughter of the Ottoman sultan Murad II. I highly doubt it. Because according to Prof Yaşar Yücel and Ali Sevim, Murat II had married to Melek Hatun from Karamanoğlu house. Does this mean that both sultans were both groom and the father in law at the same time, just like a Mark Twain story ? Since Alaaddin was older than Murat II most probably Nefise was not Murat II's daughter. Can Nefise be Murat I's daughter ? Checking the history of the article I saw that in 2 Apr.2008 an ambigious editor had changed Murad I to Murat II . I'll repair it. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 11:57, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Karamanoğlu →
Karamanids – per
WP:COMMONNAME &
WP:USEENGLISH
Takabeg ( talk) 11:21, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I prefer Karamanid, as it is most common term used in literature. Kaygtr ( talk) 22:14, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Karamanoglu Mehmet Bey.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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According to the articles Salur tribe, Karamanids and Oghuz Turks Karamanids were a branch of Salur people (Üçok group of Turkmens). But there are also some sources which connect their origin to Afshar people (Bozok group of Turkmens).The online source [3] by Yahya Başkan and Türkiye tarihi Cilt I by Yücel and Sevim note this ambiguity. Perhaps the lede should be rewritten. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
The second map on this article titled "Beylik of Karaman (orange) in 1300" (created by User:Gabagool) is the worst map I've ever come across so far. For example Ilkhanids and Seljuks are quite displaced and the Candarids are called Isfendiyarids much before Isfendiyar was born. I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:31, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Karamanids article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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It is not true that the founder of the Karaman beylik was armenian. The founder of the Karaman beylik was an Turkmen bey (warlord). Therefore I have removed that part, to be sure I have checked a few books and found absolute no reference of armenian origins of the Karaman beylik.
You are completely wrong, there is no evidence pointing to this in seljuk or other Turkish chronicles of its time. There is absolutely no evidence in any Turkish history book and no historian has ever claimed that. During the seljuk times the lingua franga of the seljuk bureaucracie was persian and arab, the common public spoke turkish but the elites spoke persian and arab. It was Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey who after declaring independence from the seljuk empire that Turkish was the sole language of the nation. His exact words were "From now on Turkish wil be spoken in the medrese (schools), in the mosques and by the elites" in 1291. There is no credibility of the claim that he has armenian roots at all, Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was a fierce Turkish nationalist, it is because of him that Turkish language prevailed in Anatolia. Therefore I have removed the outrageous lie.
The karaman clan has its roots in central asia, they were one of the many Turkish (Turkmen) clans to enter anatolia after the battle of manzikert. There are many Turkish sources pointing to this. Most Turkish sources and historians have this to write about the Karamanogullari dynasty. "Karamanogullari dynasty was from Nure Sufi Bey who was the son of Ahmed Sâdeddin Bey, one of the beys of Kacar tribe among Oguz people. Nûre Sûfî Bey was married with the paternal aunt of Eretna Bey."
Nuri Sufi Bey's actual name is Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin, meaning Nûre Sûfî the son of Sâdeddin. Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin was a clan leader of this Turkmen (Turcoman) tribe who had left central asia their homeland fleeing the mongols. First they went to Iran and from there to Azerbaidjan and then they went to the seljuk empire were Sultan Alâeddin Keykubad (1220-1237) setled them in Ermenek vilâyet (province). After Nûre Sûfî's dead Kerimüddin Karaman his son became the clan leader, it was he Kerimüddin Karaman wo is attributed as the founder of the Karaman dynasty.
It clearly says that they were oguz Turks belonging to the larger Kacar clan, the kacars still exist to this day in Turkey and in some parts of Iran.
Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was also not the founder of the karamanoglu dynasty.
If anybody wants information about it please mail me (dennis_73@hotmail.com) Im more than willing to provide evidence. I have read many Turkish and non Turkish historians none of them claimed this, I wonder where Encyclopædia Britannica got his information from is there a reference???? Orrin 73
Here is a reference I found about Karamanoglu dynasty. In time I will provide more! http://212.174.26.236/goksu/regionalhistory.html http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_01_26.htm
Encyclopædia Britannica makes the mistake by probably referencing historians Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi. A scientific research done by Historian Şehabettin Tekindağ in 1947 found out that Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi made the mistake of misunderstanding Ebu'l-Fidâ. Where they came to the conlusion that the karamanids were armenians. Şehabettin Tekindağ and some other historians have disproven that fact. Here is a credible source from a Turkish university about the issue, altough the reference is written in Turkish hopefully it will be translated in English sometime in the future. http://www.cumhuriyet.edu.tr/akademik/fak_ilahiyat/der3/3arboyacioglu.htm
You guys were all right. Thanks for clearing it up. It was hust Armenian propaganda, because an Armenian first told me that he was Armenian and that it is referenced in the Encyclopaedia Britannica... I'll have to think before trusting propaganda-driven Armenians again, especially in matters which can easily provoke hostile Armenian Genocide discussions and Armenian vs. Turk wars. Mmm, I don't get why they have a grudge on the Turks. I mean, the people were and are not at fault, as they did not carry out the genocide nor did they co-operate. There is no reason to apologize. :/ Eiríkr Rauði 17:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Re-added the flag of Karamans. 193.140.194.103 09:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Did a bit of copy-editing. IMO, the article could use a few more dates to show when key events occurred. Mary Read 06:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Error, rebooting universe... Am I drunk, or did I just see a flag with the Star of David as the flag of the Karamans?? I hope that some one can bring concrete harder than a rock references for that one. I just looked at the Candaroglu article that has the same flag, I looked at the reasoning behind it, however, we still should have good sources for that one.. Baristarim 15:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
http://www.fahnenversand.de/fotw/misc/tr~barb.jpg
Is this that strange? I dont think so, because the majority of the turks who came to anatolia were from the khazar empire and strangely the khazar empire had jewish as a state religion. So it does not surprise me at all. Secondly, there are names like Cohen in jewish which mean Kahan, which refers to the Khazar empire and names like Bunjamin in turkish which are not used by arabs etc. It would be nice if azeri's, turks in turkey and the jews in europe and israel to be tested for their relationship. 77.248.185.43 ( talk) 16:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is very confusing to me. For example:
If the problem is related to English skills, I would be happy to help. MapMaster 23:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. I added a map.
I provided proof in my previous posts, why was it changed? Orrin_73 —Preceding comment was added at 19:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Karaman was a Turk. The chauvinism above is inappropriate. Aramgar ( talk) 23:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
This star was used by many Islamic emirates. It is not the Jewish symbol, Star of David, since it is called Seal of Suleiman (Süleyman Mührü). We can see the flags of Karamanoğlu, Candaroğlu and Dulkadir from The Catalan Atlas of 1375.
Turkish explanation for Turkish users who think that the flag symbolizes Judaism: Söz konusu bayrak sandığınız gibi İsrail bayrağı değildir. 1375 tarihli haritada pek çok beylik ve emirliğin bayrakları çizilmiştir. Söz konusu haritaya yukarıda ulaşabilirsiniz. Benzer şekilde Candaroğullarının bayrağı da kırmızı Süleyman Mührü içerir: . Bununla birlikte yukarıda görebildiğiniz üzere aynı yıldız Barbaros Hayrettin Paşa tarafından da kullanılmış olup, Osmanlı camilerinin içinde dahi görülmesiyle İslami bir simge olduğu sabittir. Yani bu yıldız yahudiliği değil, aksine müslümanlığı simgelemektedir. Bu yıldızın yahudi simgesi olması son 100-200 sene öncedir. Camilerin içine çizilen bir simge nasıl olur da yahudi simgesi olur? Selçuklu eserlerini, Osmanlı eserlerini inceleyiniz. Lütfen bayrağın Yahudi bayrağını olduğunu iddia edip ikide bir silmeyiniz. Ailenize sormanız bir şey ifade etmiyor, zira hiçbir yakınınız 1375 yılında yaşamadı ve Karaman ailesi Osmanlılar tarafından 1500'lü yıllarda dağıtılmıştır. Eskiye dair bir şey kalmaması doğaldır. Wikipedia kişisel iddialar üzerinden değil, kaynaklara dayanarak yürümektedir. Bu tartışma daha önce yapılmış ve sonlanmıştı, lütfen elinizde sağlam bir kaynak yoksa tartışmayı sürdürmeyiniz. Kaygtr ( talk) 23:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
You can try to improve the article translating from catalan version (see the biography of each ruler). Catalan is very close to french language (and still more close to the occitan language).-- 83.33.222.102 ( talk) 13:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
The article states that "Karaman expanded his territories by capturing castles in Ermenek, Mut, Ereğli, Gülnar, Mer, and Silifke." Now, five of these locations are well known. But where is Mer ? I followed the link which directed me to an disambiguation page. In that page there are only two locations named Mer, one in France and one in Australia. Obviously Mer is a misnomer. Can it be Mara ? In that case either the original name Mara, or the present name of the village Kırobası must be used. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed that Alâeddin Ali Bey married to Nefise Sultan, the daughter of the Ottoman sultan Murad II. I highly doubt it. Because according to Prof Yaşar Yücel and Ali Sevim, Murat II had married to Melek Hatun from Karamanoğlu house. Does this mean that both sultans were both groom and the father in law at the same time, just like a Mark Twain story ? Since Alaaddin was older than Murat II most probably Nefise was not Murat II's daughter. Can Nefise be Murat I's daughter ? Checking the history of the article I saw that in 2 Apr.2008 an ambigious editor had changed Murad I to Murat II . I'll repair it. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 11:57, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Karamanoğlu →
Karamanids – per
WP:COMMONNAME &
WP:USEENGLISH
Takabeg ( talk) 11:21, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I prefer Karamanid, as it is most common term used in literature. Kaygtr ( talk) 22:14, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Karamanoglu Mehmet Bey.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 14:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC) |
According to the articles Salur tribe, Karamanids and Oghuz Turks Karamanids were a branch of Salur people (Üçok group of Turkmens). But there are also some sources which connect their origin to Afshar people (Bozok group of Turkmens).The online source [3] by Yahya Başkan and Türkiye tarihi Cilt I by Yücel and Sevim note this ambiguity. Perhaps the lede should be rewritten. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
The second map on this article titled "Beylik of Karaman (orange) in 1300" (created by User:Gabagool) is the worst map I've ever come across so far. For example Ilkhanids and Seljuks are quite displaced and the Candarids are called Isfendiyarids much before Isfendiyar was born. I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:31, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
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