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Karabakh is not in "present-day" Azerbaijan, unless Syunik, Yerevan, etc., are in present-day Armenia.
Meanwhile, Karabakh is from the Azerbaijani language, and should be properly identified as such -- otherwise, it makes no sense, why would a Turkic word and a Persian word be used, when both Turks and Persians have their own words to denote "black" and "garden". Only a language which is a symbiosis (to some degree) of two (or more) languages, and its speakers, would call a region in such a mixed way -- ethnic Persians, or Turcomans or Turkmens, would not. Azerbaijani language has formed in 11th century (BSE), the word Karabakh is from about 13th century. -- AdilBaguirov 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Narek, are you kidding man?! "Turkish" does not always refer to Anatolian Turkish, but to the Oghuz Turkic language -- which used to be the same for all Oghuz Turks in 11th century, in 13th century, and even 14th century. But such basic, rudimentary words are "Qara" have always been the same in pretty much all Turkic languages -- whether Oghuz or Kipchak or Chagatay or Tatar. And since 1) Karabakh is part of Azerbaijan both today and in 13-14th centuries (when Mongol-Tatar Il-khanids had their capital in Tabriz, Azerbaijan), and 2) only Azerbaijani (and to some degree Anatolian Turkish, although more limited) have both words "Qara/Kara" and "Bagh", whilst Persian language does not use "Qara" but their own "Siyah", hence the word Karabakh is Azerbaijani, and not Persian or even Turkish. Of course, once again, that doesn't mean that the origin of the words is not Persian and Turkish (actually, once again, Qara is not Turkish as in Anatolian Turkish, but rather a common word for all Turkish or Turkic languages.) As I said before, if needed, I can scan relevant pages from the authoritative Azerbaijani-English dictionary if needed.
Meanwhile, as I said before, "present-day" is misplaced in this context -- if we are to include it, then we must reciprocate in all Armenian pages, by inserting "present-day Armenia" for obvious reasons.
Meanwhile, whilst I appreciate that Narek compromised and agreed that my edits made sense, his latest insertion "and historically a part of Armenia at times" is very much disputed -- medieval chroniclers such as Movses Khorenatsi (Father of Armenian History), and Caucasian Albanian Movses Kalankatuyski, were clear that Artsakh (Karabakh) was part of Caucasian Albania. Same is said by such encyclopedia's as Great Soviet or Columbia. The only time when Caucasian Albania, and with it Karabakh, could have not even fell to "Armenian" hands, but just accept suzeiranty, was under the ethnically Persian Tigranes the Great, king of Greater Armenia, in I century BC (and even that is very much disputed, but I am just repeating what Ronald Grigor Suny claimed in Enc. Britannica). Of course, even if Caucasian Albania did accept suzeiranty of Tigran for a few decades, that doesn't make Karabakh "historically a part of Armenia at times". If you want to debate this -- I am ready. -- AdilBaguirov 08:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Whats original research? me proving you wrong? Those were Armenian kingdoms and they included the territory that was Karabakh. Thus historically part of Armenia. I won't even reply to your non-Armenian remark. Vartanm 09:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Says who? Why don't you read both Movses Khorenatsi and Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) for a change, especially the latter, as the primary source, who makes clear that Utik, Artsakh were Albanian, and that even Syunik was independent of Armenia. -- adil 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
So how does Karabakh become "historically Armenian"?. Probably because Armenians maintained broad forms of autonomy even under foreign rule.
lol
I'm sorry, but can you please point to me on a map where Azerbaijan was roughly located from the period of ∞ BC - 1918? (not the one below the river Araks, mind you)-- MarshallBagramyan 00:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Right....:rolls eyes: -- MarshallBagramyan 20:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
oh dear. All I wanted to do was make maps, you know. Make maps... -- Golbez 08:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
This quote has no reference and is an unsubstantiated POV, which lays at the source of the actual Karabakh conflict. As it's an unsubstantiated and POV quote, I will be making an edit to remove it. Atabek 17:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Historically means for a long time - pls. artaxiad provide your reference-- Dacy69 21:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
That's entertaining. Since you are inserting your claim, please bring your reference. Then we will talk.-- Dacy69 22:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, Karabakh is not majority Armenian population -- even after ethnic cleansing, at least half of the IDPs from there, 300,000-400,000 people, live in Barda and other cities, towns and villages of Karabakh. Meanwhile its true that Armenian forces occupy most of Karabakh, and that should be reflected. -- adil 03:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
What are these "citation needed" inserted for? There is a link to the NK article, which covers all those subjects -- why do you need to insert that, just for the sake of spoiling the article? adil 03:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
We desperately need a map of the region, not just Upper Karabakh but the whole thing, so I can see just how much is controlled/occupied/owned by what side. -- Golbez 21:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, word Karabakh in Azerbaijani means black garden, hence it's been agreed upon earlier that it's Azerbaijani term. Armenians designate the region with it's Caucasian Albanian name of Artsakh. Atabek 13:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, both lowland and highland of Karabakh are officially parts of Azerbaijan. So no need for original research and/or generalizations. Yerevan is not a town in South Caucasus, it's a capital of Armenia. Thanks. Atabek 13:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, Karabakh both lowland and highland is not only under control but under occupation of Armenian forces. That's what 4 UN Security Council resolutions say. It's officially part of Azerbaijan and was never recognized as part of any other state or independent by anyone. Hence, it's region in Azerbaijan. -- Atabek ( talk) 20:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
This page is about the region, for political expressions/positions/opinions there is Nagorno-Karabakh Republic POV fork. Atabek ( talk) 22:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed POV and OR linked to maps by blogger Andrew Andersen. Follow the discussion at Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh to find out why blogger-made maps aren't acceptable in conflicting cases. Thanks. Atabəy ( talk) 23:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
To anonymous IP editor. Please, do not remove Azerbaijan templates from the page, it's counter productive. Atabəy ( talk) 18:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Karabakh (the whole thing) is at least partially in Azerbaijan, so it's not POV to include templates (stub or otherwise) pertaining to Azerbaijan. -- Golbez ( talk) 16:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The Muslims of that period in Karabakh are known as Azeris (Azeri Turks) of today, just like Christians in Karabakh are now known as Armenians. So I added a reference to Karabakh Khanate being called Azeri. If we are to go back renaming everything Azeri to Muslim (actually not very appropriate behavior for Wikipedia), we shall also investigate how ethnically Albanian population of Mountainous Karabakh suddenly became Armenian. Atabəy ( talk) 18:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Some editors here now started to raise issues and claim that Karabakh could have been a "historic" Armenian region. I wonder how would that be possible when even the Father of Armenian history, a 5th century Movses Khorenatsi clearly showed (Book I, Ch. 4) borders of Caucasian Albania and Armenia? Not to mention native historian, Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Daxuranci), who did the same (see Book I, Ch 4; Book II, Ch 21), and it is clear how much of history of Caucasian Albania was interlinked with Karabakh (Utik + Artsakh). Here are two encylopedia's speaking, both extremely favorable to Armenians and Armenia, and in fact, in the case of the first, edited by an Armenian:
"In the first century A.D. the region now occupied by Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations developed in the third through fifth centuries, and Christianity began to spread. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.) Artsakh was part of the Albanian kindgdom in the ninth and tenth centuries. In the mid-11th century it was invaded by the Seljuk Turks…. In the 1230's, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh."
(Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd edition, 1973, "NKAO, Historial Survey")
"[Karabakh was a] part of Caucasian Albania called Artsakh."
(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition. Copyright (c) 1993, Columbia University Press.)
The famous Russian historian of 19th century and beginning of 20th, V.L.Velichko, wrote: "Especially interesting is also the question of Caucasian Albania, or, in Armenian, Aghvank. This country, which incorporated contemporary Elizavetpol' Guberniia, as well as part of Tiflis [Guberniia] and Daghestan, was populated by nations of non-Armenian ancestry.... Until the beginning of XIX century a separate Aghvan or Gandzasar Catolicosat existed, which competed with the Echmiadzin [Armenian Catholicosat].... Currently, the Christians who were before of Aghvan Catholicosat, are considered Armenians, and after mixing with them [assimilating], adopted their character." (p. 66). Velichko later continues: "An exception were the inhabitants of Karabakh (Albania or Aghvania), incorrectly (in relation to history) called Armenians, who professed the Armenian-Gregorian faith, but were descendants of [Caucasian] Mountaneer and Turkic tribes, and who had gone through the process of Armenianization only three to four centuries earlier." (p.154)
V.L. Velichko, "Caucasus: Russian affairs and interethnic questions." St.Petersburg, 1904, pp. 66, 154. IN RUSSIAN: Vasilii L'vovich Velichko "Kavkaz. Russkoe delo i mezhduplemennie voprosi."
One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.
Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).
Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia: A Legal Appraisal - Page 1, by Tim Potier - 2001 "Nagorno- Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania."
Even a very POV book by A. J. (Agop Jack) Hacikyan, Nourhan Ouzounian, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, writes: [5]: "Vache was the prince of Artsakh and Utik and is often referred to as the "King of Albanians" by Armenian chroniclers." (p. 363) I think this is more than enough to prove that POV contentions of some editors are meritless. Karabakh, or rather, Artsakh (and Utik) were historic provinces of Caucasian Albania, whilst Karabakh (the name since 1230s) is a historic region of Azerbaijan. -- adil 06:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Меликства Хамсы — это пять небольших гаваров, которые, соседствуя друг с другом, образуют целую область, ныне называемую Карабах, а в нашей истории известную под именем Арцах, или Малый Сюник. В более отдаленные времена она являлась частью страны Агванк.
...
Эти края, которые, как я упомянул выше, когда-то являлись частью Агванского царства, впоследствии стали пристанищем армянских меликов.
...
II
1. Происхождение Мелик-Бегларянов, владетелей Голистана*.
Мелик-Бегларяны — коренные утийцы, из села Ниж. Какие обстоятельства принудили их оставить родину, перебраться в Карабах и поселиться в гаваре Гюлистан, — об этом история умалчивает. Известно только, что первый переселенец, которого тюрки называли «Кара-юзбаши» («Черный сотник»), а армяне — «Черный Абов», был человеком не простым:** на своей родине он имел состояние и правил народом.
...
3. Происхождение Хасан-Джалалянов, владетелей Хачена.
Из пяти господствовавших в Карабахе меликских домов лишь правители Хачена были местными жителями, а остальные, как мы видели и увидим далее, были переселенцами из других мест(4). Происхождение меликов Хачена следует считать очень древним, они потомки князей Хасан-Джалалянов. -- adil 10:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Dude stop bullshitting yourself. According to Movses Khorenatsi and Movses Kaghankatvatsi, Artsakh was the original dominion of a certain Aran who was the progenitor of the House of Aranshahik - "the ancient native Armenian family". Aran was called “the Aghu” (meaning amiable in Armenian) because his good manners. The genealogy of Aran (old spelling: Eran, hence: Eranshahik) is preserved by the historiographer Movses Kaghankatvatsi, who wrote that Aran belonged to the lineage of the ancient patriarchs and kings of Armenia, including Hayk, Armeneak, Aramayis, Gegham, Aram, Ara the Beautiful, Haykak, Norayr, Hrant, Perch, Skayordi, Paruyr, Hrachea, Ervand (Orontes) Sakavakeats, Tigranes et al.
Aran was appointed by the King Valarsace of Armenia as hereditary prince (nahapet or genearch) over the plain of Arran
until the fortress of Hnarakert. Aran is also known as the divine eponym and the first governor of the Caucasian
Albanians, appointed by Vagharshak I the Parthian. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
145.97.241.30 (
talk)
06:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Golbez, I added a reference to an Armenian author, who indicates that the province was that of Caucasian Albania. Atabəy ( talk) 21:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Vacio, there is no sufficient justification for removing Rywkin reference. Atabəy ( talk) 06:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I added a fact tag to the claim that local government in Shahumian claimed to join the so-called "NKR". Shahumian was under full control of Azerbaijan SSR by September 1991. Atabəy ( talk) 22:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I have done some major rewriting for the history section of this article. Much of the rewriting has involved contentious information which user Quantum666 added several months ago, on the basis of a very flimsy and, to be quite frank, amateurishly written source (The Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict: A Legal Analysis, by Heiko Krüger). It is a poor source, and one that is written as a legal treatise rather than a work on history (Krüger happens to be an attorney at law, and not a historian). After browsing through the pages, it’s clear that the author himself has shown poor judgment in selecting his sources, citing material from less than reliable sources such as Audrey Altstadt and as controversial figures as Farida Mammadova, a revisionist historian who has a proven track record of distorting information and reducing the historical role of Armenians in Artsakh/Karabakh, and coming up with flimsy conclusions (one of the reasons the Armenians of Artsakh were not Armenian, he says, was because they had Arabic names, which is highly inaccurate since Armenians simply liked to adopt such names, see the House of Hasan-Jalalyan article). His opinions in this article have consequently been replaced by individuals who are far more qualified to weigh in on the matter, namely historians.
Even worse, there are points in the book where it seems that he is consciously misinterpreting a source and ignoring the evidence of the very people he is citing. Among the most basic mistakes he makes is the assumption that the “Albanian Church” of Artsakh was some sort of independent ethnic and political entity until it was abolished in the 19th century, when all scholars agree in union that it was Armenian in all but name (the Albanian Church had been directly subordinated to the Armenian church since the 5th century and its members, in direct contrast to what Krüger says, felt themselves as Armenians and after the 11th century, of holding the last bastion of Armenian independence in the region. (See Robert H. Hewsen, "The Kingdom of Arc'ax" in Medieval Armenian Culture (University of Pennsylvania Armenian Texts and Studies) in Thomas J. Samuelian and Michael E. Stone (eds.) Chico, California: Scholars Press, 1984, pp. 52-53. ISBN 0-8913-0642-0)
I have instead turned to George A. Bournoutian, a peer-reviewed scholar and respected historian who specializes in the early modern history of Karabakh, for tackling the most thorny aspects of this article. In an article published in the peer-reviewed journal, Journal of the Society for Armenian Studies, and published online here, he scrutinizes and debunks much of the misinformation (most notably the notorious use of Audrey Altstadt’s error-riddled book; he shows how Altstadt has distorted the statistical information from the 1897 Russian census) which has unfortunately been repeated on this article and elsewhere. I have also correspondingly nPOVed the article and removed some of the more egregious POV lines. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 20:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a very wide gulf in the figures given in the 1823 Russian census, of which a few copies were published in 1866 and were stored in the archives of the Russian government. George Bournoutian has only recently prepared an English translation of the the 1823 census, and it's doubtful that authors like G. Reza Sabri-Tabrizi (who is the actual author of the chapter and not Ehteshami), F. Coene and S. Cornell have personally read the census results. Furthermore, none of these individuals are really specialists in the given field (i.e., the history of the Iranian khanates and the Russian Empire at the turn of the 19th century) unlike Bournoutian, who is an accomplished, peer-reviewed scholar in his field. It is quite possible that they are working with material published by secondary authors (Sabri-Tabrizi cites Molla-Zade of the Azerbaijani Academy of Sciences whereas Cornell does not even bother to name his sources). Bournoutian himself has published a study on how the statistics of this survey have long been manipulated and distorted by scholars working in Azerbaijan and, taken from the publisher's page, we read:
Finally, in 2003, he [Bournoutian] was delighted to learn that a new edition, numbering only 500 copies, had appeared in Baku. However, instead of printing a facsimile of the original, the production team had decided to reformat the entire text. In doing so, they not only had made numerous spelling and typographic errors, but had also omitted important data, some of which appear to have been intentional. The editors had not bothered to explain the invaluable data on the administration, land tenure and taxation of Karabagh prior to its annexation to Russia. One would have hoped that in reformatting the entire text, the editor or some other scholar would have researched the many terms and presented a true picture of the socioeconomic conditions of Karabagh under the last Khan.
In Bournoutian's article, we further read:
Prior to Soviet rule, the Russians conducted a number of surveys in the different regions of Transcaucasia.(2) Although not as accurate as a present-day census might be, the surveys were the first of their kind in Western Asia. In 1822, the Russian administration decided to determine the Armenian population in Transcaucasia. The survey was primarily to determine how many "non-Orthodox" Christians there were in the region.(3) The survey managed to record the number of Armenians in Georgia, Ganje (Elisavetpol), and Baku.(4) Erevan and Nakhichevan were under Persian rule and were not included. The Khan of Karabakh, Mahdi-qoli, fearing that the Armenian-populated districts might be removed from his control, did not permit the survey in Karabakh. Later that year, he fled to Persia, and the Russian were able to commence their first survey of Karabakh. The survey began in early 1823 and was completed on 17 April of that same year.(5) Its more than 300 pages recorded both the Armenian and Muslim population, not by numbers, but by villages and tax assessments. It noted that the district of Khachen had twelve Armenian villages and no Tatar (Russian term for the Turkish population) villages; Jalapert had eight Armenian villages and no Tatar villages; Dizak had fourteen Armenian villages and one Tatar village; Gulistan had two Armenian and five Tatar villages; and Varanda had twenty-three Armenian villages and one Tatar village. Thus the five mountainous districts (generally known as Nagorno-Karabakh today) which, according to Persian and Turkish sources, constituted the five (khamse) Armenian melikdoms,(6) had an overwhelming Armenian population before 1828.(7)
The mahal of Tat'ew had twelve Armenian and one Tatar village; that of Kiopar, six Armenian villages; and Bargushat, two Armenian and three Tatar villages. Thus these mahals, which form part of present-day Zangezur and were a part of the larger region called Karabakh, were also overwhelmingly Armenian. Armenians were also represented, in small numbers, in all the other non-nomadic districts of Karabakh.
It is possible that the cryptic survey cited by Altstadt was an official Russian state publication regarding the population of Caucasus which was published in St. Petersburg in 1836.(8) That source puts the Armenians of all of Karabakh at approximately 19,000 and the Tatars at approximately 35,000. Thus the Armenians were 35.2% of the population, which is close to the so-called 1832 survey cited by Altstadt. The important fact is that the official 1836 survey clearly states that the Armenians were concentrated in the mountainous part of Karabakh (generally called Nagorno-Karabakh). Thus once again 35.2% of the population of Karabakh (the Armenians) inhabited 38 percent of the land, where they formed an overwhelming majority.
I think such a detailed study is far more reliable than some of the sources Neftchi introduced, who do not seem to understand the intricacies of the census and the population on whom they reported on. Given the tendency among historians working in Azerbaijan to omit or reduce the historical presence of Armenians in Karabakh, it almost seems plausible that the data they are looking at has been distorted to present an inaccurate image to unsuspecting authors. Once I get a copy of the English translation, we will be able to provide more precise figures, but for the moment I would suggest we give credence to the individual whose specialty is precisely the period in question.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 20:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, those who have the habit of copying sources without verification have used Alstadt's misleading footnotes and have further damaged my credibility as a scholar. The worst offender is Suzanne Goldenberg's Pride of Small Nations: The Caucasus and Post-Soviet Disorder (London: Zed Books, 1994), which states, "Even in 1832, after considerable migration had taken place, it is generally accepted [Bournoutian's emphasis] that Muslims were a majority in Karabakh. An official Russian survey of that year recorded that Muslims made up 64.8 percent of the region and Armenians 34.8 percent" (p. 158). The note cites my article as the sole source. The survey, which I have never seen or cited, is now attributed to me.
Having disposed of one myth, I shall concentrate on the question of the immigration of Armenians from Iran and Turkey into Karabakh. Between 1828 and 1831, 45,207 Armenians immigrated to Erevan (23,568 from Iran and 21,639 from Turkey), and 3,883 to Nakhichevan (3,856 from Iran and 27 from Turkey).(9) The Armenians of Bayazid desired to settle in Karabakh but were told that there was not enough land for them there. They were encouraged rather to settle around Lake Sevan, where Muslim tribes had evacuated. They did, and the district became known as Novo-Bayazid or New Bayazid (later Gavar and Kamo).(10) The only work which deals primarily with the Armenian immigration from Persian Azerbaijan to Russia is by Sergei Glinka.(11) He does not supply any numbers, but makes it clear that the majority of the Armenians were headed towards the newly-established Armenian Province, created from the Khanates of Erevan and Nakhichevan. An archival document, however, does shine some light on the issue. The document states that only 279 Armenian families decided to immigrate to Karabakh, and that they settled in Kapan and Meghri on the banks of the Arax (in the southernmost part of Zangezur bordering Iran).(12) All documents relating to the Armenian immigration make it clear that Russia, for political, military, and economic reasons, strongly encouraged the Armenians to settle in the newly-established Armenian province, especially the region of Erevan, which between 1795 and 1827 had lost some 20,000 Armenians who had immigrated to Georgia.(13) Since few Georgian Armenians planned to return, Russia concentrated on repatriating the Armenians taken to Iran in the seventeenth century by Shah Abbas. The only major immigration into Karabakh was by the former Armenians of Karabakh who had escaped the oppression of its ruler Ebrahim Khan,(14) some as late as the 1790s, who had sought refuge in Ganje, Georgia, and Erevan. They began returning home after a decade or so, following the Russian protectorate over Karabakh in 1805 and continued to do so until the 1820s. According to archival documents most of them returned to their own villages, which, for the most part, had remained abandoned.(15)
-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I accept and exclude sources based on the qualifications of their authors. I look at the environment they are writing in, what their degrees are in (Cornell, e.g., is not even a historian but a political scientist), I look at the professionalism of their writing and how careful they are in making their judgment with the sources they have at their disposal, and I look at the sources they use to ensure that they themselves are taking their own works seriously. In all this, quantity is worthless: 100 authors can write that the earth is flat but a single scholar who challenges that belief and demonstrates convincingly that it is round can upturn a widely held belief. The fact that you do not even raise questions relating to a source's qualifications (affiliation is somewhat of a moot point) and simply go about invoking ethnicity as a possible inhibitor to a source is grounds for concern and I make it known. I do not do anything to "entrap" others so please accept the responsibility and the consequences of the statements you make.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 17:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
This is about the 1823 census so please stop diverting this issue elsewhere. My original point still stands - Bournoutian's research and level of expertise outweighs those of the three authors' which Neftchi introduced on the basis that he has seen the original document, he is a peer-reviewed historian, and his field is early modern Iranian and Russian history. Once I have a copy of the translation of the 1823 census, we can use it to confirm what the scholar says.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
That's a personal interpretation that, needless to say, I disagree with and a vague and poor one at that. Neftchi's edits speak for themselves when we see that the information he added includes confusing the data of Highland Karabakh with Lowland Karabakh, alongside the entire province of Karabakh (which included a huge swath of territory besides Karabakh, something that Cornell himself admits). This is unfortunately not the first time we've had to clarify the language in Neftchi's edits and so we must be grateful to Vacio for the quick catch. You know my position regarding scholars who work in constricted political environments and are forced to toe a politically-charged line which they themselves may not believe in. But if you can demonstrate that said scholars have a positive reputation in the West, are peer-reviewed, adhere to modern scholarship standards and do not resort to erasing the names of historical peoples and places from maps and other primary sources, then I think I would be willing to reconsider my position.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 19:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Scholars should be on guard when using Soviet and post-Soviet Azeri editions of Azeri, Persian, and even Russian and Western European sources printed in Baku. These have been edited to remove references to Armenians and have been distributed in large numbers in recent years. When utilizing such sources, the researchers should seek out pre-Soviet editions wherever possible. Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2001, p. 291
A huge thanks to Vacio for figuring out the reason as to why we got such diametrically different figures (namely, that Bornoutian was reporting the statistics for the region of Highland Karabakh while Neftchi, without any attempt at clarification, added figures of the entire Karabakh khanate). I have expanded the body of the text a bit, addressing the reason of the demographic shift from predominantly Armenian to predominantly Muslim, have made grammar corrections, and added more reliable sources and removed the work by Goldenberg, given the serious questions revolving around her reliability (as highlighted by Bornoutian). I also switched the order of the spelling in the lede by keeping it in line with the English alphabet (Ar. before Az.), which only seems to makes sense in such contentious articles as these.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 19:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence of off-Wiki coordination? Because, the last time I checked, that's one hell of an accusation to level against other editors. I suppose it did not occur to you that your edits could be so contentious in content and added in so mendacious a manner that they might actually attract the attention of other users. For the last time, what is wrong with Bournoutian as a source? Why do you dismiss him so casually as someone who is bound to write "POV" (which you use in such a vague and unspecified manner) and assign equal, if not greater, credibility to authors who are neither experts in the area we are talking about nor historians? You have mentioned his ethnic heritage several times now, enough to warrant another ban, and have co-opted articles as if they are a very special part of your domain.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Tuscumbia, we all know that your version of the edits are worded in such a way that would not be acceptable elsewhere on Wikipedia. Weasel wording abounds. We have phrases like, "Additionally, the assumption for demographic disbalance is that..." and "It is also claimed that the Armenians..." This is not how you write an article; you do not obfuscate, distort, and try to marginalize the findings of a serious scholar by phrasing it in such a way to cast serious doubt on his research. Furthermore, you should not try to place it on an even plane by including individuals (like Suzanne Goldenberg) whose academic reliability is shown to be in question. You shoehorned your POV edits originally and I was hopeful that you might make those edits yourself. The question of order of spelling is a matter of what comes first in the alphabet; origin or etymology is not important. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 20:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm just a simple country chicken lawyer baCAWWWK but I'd like to remind you fine folks that this here article and its editors fall under the provisions of WP:AA2, and as such braAWWwk it would be nice if y'all could not get into an edit war or incivil discussion. Now be good, y'hear? -- Golbez ( talk) 20:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Im concerned by the misleading writing by Marshal. Its well established that by - Caucasian Tatars and Muslims in the Caucasus - its meant Azerbaijanis. Here are just a few academic sources confirming this [7], [ http://books.google.nl/books?id=ZeP7OZZswtcC&pg=PA8&dq=Caucasian+tatars+azerbaijanis&hl=nl&output=html_text&cd=3 ], [8]. Mursel ( talk) 00:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
No Muslim in the region at the start of the 19th century would have described himself as an Azerbaijani. Loyalties lay with their families, their tribes, their religion, and so on. Nationalism among the Muslims of the South Caucasus did not develop until much later so it's important not to brush them with too broad a stroke. And let's not even start with the litany of misleading edits you have made in the past Neftchi. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 02:00, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I feel the need to protect this. I feel the need to protect it on the right version. That right version will be the one with these paragraphs excised entirely. -- Golbez ( talk) 21:24, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Neftchi, your presence on this talk page, and all others for that matter, has been negligible. Unless you have something meaningful to contribute, please get off your horse and stop pretending that mendacious POV pushing is not at play here.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 17:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't see a point in having two article, one called Karabakh, and one Nagorno-Karabakh. The content seems to be very similar, the topic is pretty much the same, and the section on the name can explain how the name(s) have been used over time and in current times. Is there a reason I am not thinking of to explain the existence of these two article? Shouldn't they be merged? Wikiboer ( talk) 15:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
It seems crazy to have an article about a geographic region without having a map indicating where this area of the world is. There must be one that doesn't set off a political debate. Liz Read! Talk! 10:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I accidentally deleted the edit note for [this revert]( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Karabakh&diff=prev&oldid=710485539): the source says plain in Armenia. -- va c io 06:08, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
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It starts with "Karabakh is a geographic region in present-day eastern Armenia...". But this is not true (you can check it in the map) and therefore needs to be removed. It is FULLY within the internationally recognized borders of Azerbaijan. This is a sensitive issue and therefore needs a cautious attention.
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Whatever the ongoing disputes, I think localisation of Karabakh in the "present-day /.../ eastern Armenia" is outright wrong. Separatism is an issue, the region is occupied by the Armenian army, but I have never read anywhere that Armenia presented it as its own land. Even if it was the case, this claim has never been recognized by any country in the world. Karabakh Armenians claim their "independence". De jure, it is still sovereign territory of Azerbaijan. Please comment on this before I correct that. 2A01:E34:EEC4:FAA0:7548:FA0E:E38A:BB8D ( talk) 00:26, 14 November 2013 (UTC) kazim
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Karabakh is not in "present-day" Azerbaijan, unless Syunik, Yerevan, etc., are in present-day Armenia.
Meanwhile, Karabakh is from the Azerbaijani language, and should be properly identified as such -- otherwise, it makes no sense, why would a Turkic word and a Persian word be used, when both Turks and Persians have their own words to denote "black" and "garden". Only a language which is a symbiosis (to some degree) of two (or more) languages, and its speakers, would call a region in such a mixed way -- ethnic Persians, or Turcomans or Turkmens, would not. Azerbaijani language has formed in 11th century (BSE), the word Karabakh is from about 13th century. -- AdilBaguirov 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Narek, are you kidding man?! "Turkish" does not always refer to Anatolian Turkish, but to the Oghuz Turkic language -- which used to be the same for all Oghuz Turks in 11th century, in 13th century, and even 14th century. But such basic, rudimentary words are "Qara" have always been the same in pretty much all Turkic languages -- whether Oghuz or Kipchak or Chagatay or Tatar. And since 1) Karabakh is part of Azerbaijan both today and in 13-14th centuries (when Mongol-Tatar Il-khanids had their capital in Tabriz, Azerbaijan), and 2) only Azerbaijani (and to some degree Anatolian Turkish, although more limited) have both words "Qara/Kara" and "Bagh", whilst Persian language does not use "Qara" but their own "Siyah", hence the word Karabakh is Azerbaijani, and not Persian or even Turkish. Of course, once again, that doesn't mean that the origin of the words is not Persian and Turkish (actually, once again, Qara is not Turkish as in Anatolian Turkish, but rather a common word for all Turkish or Turkic languages.) As I said before, if needed, I can scan relevant pages from the authoritative Azerbaijani-English dictionary if needed.
Meanwhile, as I said before, "present-day" is misplaced in this context -- if we are to include it, then we must reciprocate in all Armenian pages, by inserting "present-day Armenia" for obvious reasons.
Meanwhile, whilst I appreciate that Narek compromised and agreed that my edits made sense, his latest insertion "and historically a part of Armenia at times" is very much disputed -- medieval chroniclers such as Movses Khorenatsi (Father of Armenian History), and Caucasian Albanian Movses Kalankatuyski, were clear that Artsakh (Karabakh) was part of Caucasian Albania. Same is said by such encyclopedia's as Great Soviet or Columbia. The only time when Caucasian Albania, and with it Karabakh, could have not even fell to "Armenian" hands, but just accept suzeiranty, was under the ethnically Persian Tigranes the Great, king of Greater Armenia, in I century BC (and even that is very much disputed, but I am just repeating what Ronald Grigor Suny claimed in Enc. Britannica). Of course, even if Caucasian Albania did accept suzeiranty of Tigran for a few decades, that doesn't make Karabakh "historically a part of Armenia at times". If you want to debate this -- I am ready. -- AdilBaguirov 08:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Whats original research? me proving you wrong? Those were Armenian kingdoms and they included the territory that was Karabakh. Thus historically part of Armenia. I won't even reply to your non-Armenian remark. Vartanm 09:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Says who? Why don't you read both Movses Khorenatsi and Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) for a change, especially the latter, as the primary source, who makes clear that Utik, Artsakh were Albanian, and that even Syunik was independent of Armenia. -- adil 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
So how does Karabakh become "historically Armenian"?. Probably because Armenians maintained broad forms of autonomy even under foreign rule.
lol
I'm sorry, but can you please point to me on a map where Azerbaijan was roughly located from the period of ∞ BC - 1918? (not the one below the river Araks, mind you)-- MarshallBagramyan 00:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Right....:rolls eyes: -- MarshallBagramyan 20:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
oh dear. All I wanted to do was make maps, you know. Make maps... -- Golbez 08:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
This quote has no reference and is an unsubstantiated POV, which lays at the source of the actual Karabakh conflict. As it's an unsubstantiated and POV quote, I will be making an edit to remove it. Atabek 17:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Historically means for a long time - pls. artaxiad provide your reference-- Dacy69 21:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
That's entertaining. Since you are inserting your claim, please bring your reference. Then we will talk.-- Dacy69 22:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, Karabakh is not majority Armenian population -- even after ethnic cleansing, at least half of the IDPs from there, 300,000-400,000 people, live in Barda and other cities, towns and villages of Karabakh. Meanwhile its true that Armenian forces occupy most of Karabakh, and that should be reflected. -- adil 03:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
What are these "citation needed" inserted for? There is a link to the NK article, which covers all those subjects -- why do you need to insert that, just for the sake of spoiling the article? adil 03:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
We desperately need a map of the region, not just Upper Karabakh but the whole thing, so I can see just how much is controlled/occupied/owned by what side. -- Golbez 21:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, word Karabakh in Azerbaijani means black garden, hence it's been agreed upon earlier that it's Azerbaijani term. Armenians designate the region with it's Caucasian Albanian name of Artsakh. Atabek 13:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, both lowland and highland of Karabakh are officially parts of Azerbaijan. So no need for original research and/or generalizations. Yerevan is not a town in South Caucasus, it's a capital of Armenia. Thanks. Atabek 13:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, Karabakh both lowland and highland is not only under control but under occupation of Armenian forces. That's what 4 UN Security Council resolutions say. It's officially part of Azerbaijan and was never recognized as part of any other state or independent by anyone. Hence, it's region in Azerbaijan. -- Atabek ( talk) 20:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
This page is about the region, for political expressions/positions/opinions there is Nagorno-Karabakh Republic POV fork. Atabek ( talk) 22:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed POV and OR linked to maps by blogger Andrew Andersen. Follow the discussion at Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh to find out why blogger-made maps aren't acceptable in conflicting cases. Thanks. Atabəy ( talk) 23:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
To anonymous IP editor. Please, do not remove Azerbaijan templates from the page, it's counter productive. Atabəy ( talk) 18:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Karabakh (the whole thing) is at least partially in Azerbaijan, so it's not POV to include templates (stub or otherwise) pertaining to Azerbaijan. -- Golbez ( talk) 16:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The Muslims of that period in Karabakh are known as Azeris (Azeri Turks) of today, just like Christians in Karabakh are now known as Armenians. So I added a reference to Karabakh Khanate being called Azeri. If we are to go back renaming everything Azeri to Muslim (actually not very appropriate behavior for Wikipedia), we shall also investigate how ethnically Albanian population of Mountainous Karabakh suddenly became Armenian. Atabəy ( talk) 18:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Some editors here now started to raise issues and claim that Karabakh could have been a "historic" Armenian region. I wonder how would that be possible when even the Father of Armenian history, a 5th century Movses Khorenatsi clearly showed (Book I, Ch. 4) borders of Caucasian Albania and Armenia? Not to mention native historian, Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Daxuranci), who did the same (see Book I, Ch 4; Book II, Ch 21), and it is clear how much of history of Caucasian Albania was interlinked with Karabakh (Utik + Artsakh). Here are two encylopedia's speaking, both extremely favorable to Armenians and Armenia, and in fact, in the case of the first, edited by an Armenian:
"In the first century A.D. the region now occupied by Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations developed in the third through fifth centuries, and Christianity began to spread. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.) Artsakh was part of the Albanian kindgdom in the ninth and tenth centuries. In the mid-11th century it was invaded by the Seljuk Turks…. In the 1230's, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh."
(Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd edition, 1973, "NKAO, Historial Survey")
"[Karabakh was a] part of Caucasian Albania called Artsakh."
(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition. Copyright (c) 1993, Columbia University Press.)
The famous Russian historian of 19th century and beginning of 20th, V.L.Velichko, wrote: "Especially interesting is also the question of Caucasian Albania, or, in Armenian, Aghvank. This country, which incorporated contemporary Elizavetpol' Guberniia, as well as part of Tiflis [Guberniia] and Daghestan, was populated by nations of non-Armenian ancestry.... Until the beginning of XIX century a separate Aghvan or Gandzasar Catolicosat existed, which competed with the Echmiadzin [Armenian Catholicosat].... Currently, the Christians who were before of Aghvan Catholicosat, are considered Armenians, and after mixing with them [assimilating], adopted their character." (p. 66). Velichko later continues: "An exception were the inhabitants of Karabakh (Albania or Aghvania), incorrectly (in relation to history) called Armenians, who professed the Armenian-Gregorian faith, but were descendants of [Caucasian] Mountaneer and Turkic tribes, and who had gone through the process of Armenianization only three to four centuries earlier." (p.154)
V.L. Velichko, "Caucasus: Russian affairs and interethnic questions." St.Petersburg, 1904, pp. 66, 154. IN RUSSIAN: Vasilii L'vovich Velichko "Kavkaz. Russkoe delo i mezhduplemennie voprosi."
One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.
Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).
Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia: A Legal Appraisal - Page 1, by Tim Potier - 2001 "Nagorno- Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania."
Even a very POV book by A. J. (Agop Jack) Hacikyan, Nourhan Ouzounian, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, writes: [5]: "Vache was the prince of Artsakh and Utik and is often referred to as the "King of Albanians" by Armenian chroniclers." (p. 363) I think this is more than enough to prove that POV contentions of some editors are meritless. Karabakh, or rather, Artsakh (and Utik) were historic provinces of Caucasian Albania, whilst Karabakh (the name since 1230s) is a historic region of Azerbaijan. -- adil 06:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Меликства Хамсы — это пять небольших гаваров, которые, соседствуя друг с другом, образуют целую область, ныне называемую Карабах, а в нашей истории известную под именем Арцах, или Малый Сюник. В более отдаленные времена она являлась частью страны Агванк.
...
Эти края, которые, как я упомянул выше, когда-то являлись частью Агванского царства, впоследствии стали пристанищем армянских меликов.
...
II
1. Происхождение Мелик-Бегларянов, владетелей Голистана*.
Мелик-Бегларяны — коренные утийцы, из села Ниж. Какие обстоятельства принудили их оставить родину, перебраться в Карабах и поселиться в гаваре Гюлистан, — об этом история умалчивает. Известно только, что первый переселенец, которого тюрки называли «Кара-юзбаши» («Черный сотник»), а армяне — «Черный Абов», был человеком не простым:** на своей родине он имел состояние и правил народом.
...
3. Происхождение Хасан-Джалалянов, владетелей Хачена.
Из пяти господствовавших в Карабахе меликских домов лишь правители Хачена были местными жителями, а остальные, как мы видели и увидим далее, были переселенцами из других мест(4). Происхождение меликов Хачена следует считать очень древним, они потомки князей Хасан-Джалалянов. -- adil 10:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Dude stop bullshitting yourself. According to Movses Khorenatsi and Movses Kaghankatvatsi, Artsakh was the original dominion of a certain Aran who was the progenitor of the House of Aranshahik - "the ancient native Armenian family". Aran was called “the Aghu” (meaning amiable in Armenian) because his good manners. The genealogy of Aran (old spelling: Eran, hence: Eranshahik) is preserved by the historiographer Movses Kaghankatvatsi, who wrote that Aran belonged to the lineage of the ancient patriarchs and kings of Armenia, including Hayk, Armeneak, Aramayis, Gegham, Aram, Ara the Beautiful, Haykak, Norayr, Hrant, Perch, Skayordi, Paruyr, Hrachea, Ervand (Orontes) Sakavakeats, Tigranes et al.
Aran was appointed by the King Valarsace of Armenia as hereditary prince (nahapet or genearch) over the plain of Arran
until the fortress of Hnarakert. Aran is also known as the divine eponym and the first governor of the Caucasian
Albanians, appointed by Vagharshak I the Parthian. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
145.97.241.30 (
talk)
06:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Golbez, I added a reference to an Armenian author, who indicates that the province was that of Caucasian Albania. Atabəy ( talk) 21:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Vacio, there is no sufficient justification for removing Rywkin reference. Atabəy ( talk) 06:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I added a fact tag to the claim that local government in Shahumian claimed to join the so-called "NKR". Shahumian was under full control of Azerbaijan SSR by September 1991. Atabəy ( talk) 22:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I have done some major rewriting for the history section of this article. Much of the rewriting has involved contentious information which user Quantum666 added several months ago, on the basis of a very flimsy and, to be quite frank, amateurishly written source (The Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict: A Legal Analysis, by Heiko Krüger). It is a poor source, and one that is written as a legal treatise rather than a work on history (Krüger happens to be an attorney at law, and not a historian). After browsing through the pages, it’s clear that the author himself has shown poor judgment in selecting his sources, citing material from less than reliable sources such as Audrey Altstadt and as controversial figures as Farida Mammadova, a revisionist historian who has a proven track record of distorting information and reducing the historical role of Armenians in Artsakh/Karabakh, and coming up with flimsy conclusions (one of the reasons the Armenians of Artsakh were not Armenian, he says, was because they had Arabic names, which is highly inaccurate since Armenians simply liked to adopt such names, see the House of Hasan-Jalalyan article). His opinions in this article have consequently been replaced by individuals who are far more qualified to weigh in on the matter, namely historians.
Even worse, there are points in the book where it seems that he is consciously misinterpreting a source and ignoring the evidence of the very people he is citing. Among the most basic mistakes he makes is the assumption that the “Albanian Church” of Artsakh was some sort of independent ethnic and political entity until it was abolished in the 19th century, when all scholars agree in union that it was Armenian in all but name (the Albanian Church had been directly subordinated to the Armenian church since the 5th century and its members, in direct contrast to what Krüger says, felt themselves as Armenians and after the 11th century, of holding the last bastion of Armenian independence in the region. (See Robert H. Hewsen, "The Kingdom of Arc'ax" in Medieval Armenian Culture (University of Pennsylvania Armenian Texts and Studies) in Thomas J. Samuelian and Michael E. Stone (eds.) Chico, California: Scholars Press, 1984, pp. 52-53. ISBN 0-8913-0642-0)
I have instead turned to George A. Bournoutian, a peer-reviewed scholar and respected historian who specializes in the early modern history of Karabakh, for tackling the most thorny aspects of this article. In an article published in the peer-reviewed journal, Journal of the Society for Armenian Studies, and published online here, he scrutinizes and debunks much of the misinformation (most notably the notorious use of Audrey Altstadt’s error-riddled book; he shows how Altstadt has distorted the statistical information from the 1897 Russian census) which has unfortunately been repeated on this article and elsewhere. I have also correspondingly nPOVed the article and removed some of the more egregious POV lines. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 20:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a very wide gulf in the figures given in the 1823 Russian census, of which a few copies were published in 1866 and were stored in the archives of the Russian government. George Bournoutian has only recently prepared an English translation of the the 1823 census, and it's doubtful that authors like G. Reza Sabri-Tabrizi (who is the actual author of the chapter and not Ehteshami), F. Coene and S. Cornell have personally read the census results. Furthermore, none of these individuals are really specialists in the given field (i.e., the history of the Iranian khanates and the Russian Empire at the turn of the 19th century) unlike Bournoutian, who is an accomplished, peer-reviewed scholar in his field. It is quite possible that they are working with material published by secondary authors (Sabri-Tabrizi cites Molla-Zade of the Azerbaijani Academy of Sciences whereas Cornell does not even bother to name his sources). Bournoutian himself has published a study on how the statistics of this survey have long been manipulated and distorted by scholars working in Azerbaijan and, taken from the publisher's page, we read:
Finally, in 2003, he [Bournoutian] was delighted to learn that a new edition, numbering only 500 copies, had appeared in Baku. However, instead of printing a facsimile of the original, the production team had decided to reformat the entire text. In doing so, they not only had made numerous spelling and typographic errors, but had also omitted important data, some of which appear to have been intentional. The editors had not bothered to explain the invaluable data on the administration, land tenure and taxation of Karabagh prior to its annexation to Russia. One would have hoped that in reformatting the entire text, the editor or some other scholar would have researched the many terms and presented a true picture of the socioeconomic conditions of Karabagh under the last Khan.
In Bournoutian's article, we further read:
Prior to Soviet rule, the Russians conducted a number of surveys in the different regions of Transcaucasia.(2) Although not as accurate as a present-day census might be, the surveys were the first of their kind in Western Asia. In 1822, the Russian administration decided to determine the Armenian population in Transcaucasia. The survey was primarily to determine how many "non-Orthodox" Christians there were in the region.(3) The survey managed to record the number of Armenians in Georgia, Ganje (Elisavetpol), and Baku.(4) Erevan and Nakhichevan were under Persian rule and were not included. The Khan of Karabakh, Mahdi-qoli, fearing that the Armenian-populated districts might be removed from his control, did not permit the survey in Karabakh. Later that year, he fled to Persia, and the Russian were able to commence their first survey of Karabakh. The survey began in early 1823 and was completed on 17 April of that same year.(5) Its more than 300 pages recorded both the Armenian and Muslim population, not by numbers, but by villages and tax assessments. It noted that the district of Khachen had twelve Armenian villages and no Tatar (Russian term for the Turkish population) villages; Jalapert had eight Armenian villages and no Tatar villages; Dizak had fourteen Armenian villages and one Tatar village; Gulistan had two Armenian and five Tatar villages; and Varanda had twenty-three Armenian villages and one Tatar village. Thus the five mountainous districts (generally known as Nagorno-Karabakh today) which, according to Persian and Turkish sources, constituted the five (khamse) Armenian melikdoms,(6) had an overwhelming Armenian population before 1828.(7)
The mahal of Tat'ew had twelve Armenian and one Tatar village; that of Kiopar, six Armenian villages; and Bargushat, two Armenian and three Tatar villages. Thus these mahals, which form part of present-day Zangezur and were a part of the larger region called Karabakh, were also overwhelmingly Armenian. Armenians were also represented, in small numbers, in all the other non-nomadic districts of Karabakh.
It is possible that the cryptic survey cited by Altstadt was an official Russian state publication regarding the population of Caucasus which was published in St. Petersburg in 1836.(8) That source puts the Armenians of all of Karabakh at approximately 19,000 and the Tatars at approximately 35,000. Thus the Armenians were 35.2% of the population, which is close to the so-called 1832 survey cited by Altstadt. The important fact is that the official 1836 survey clearly states that the Armenians were concentrated in the mountainous part of Karabakh (generally called Nagorno-Karabakh). Thus once again 35.2% of the population of Karabakh (the Armenians) inhabited 38 percent of the land, where they formed an overwhelming majority.
I think such a detailed study is far more reliable than some of the sources Neftchi introduced, who do not seem to understand the intricacies of the census and the population on whom they reported on. Given the tendency among historians working in Azerbaijan to omit or reduce the historical presence of Armenians in Karabakh, it almost seems plausible that the data they are looking at has been distorted to present an inaccurate image to unsuspecting authors. Once I get a copy of the English translation, we will be able to provide more precise figures, but for the moment I would suggest we give credence to the individual whose specialty is precisely the period in question.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 20:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, those who have the habit of copying sources without verification have used Alstadt's misleading footnotes and have further damaged my credibility as a scholar. The worst offender is Suzanne Goldenberg's Pride of Small Nations: The Caucasus and Post-Soviet Disorder (London: Zed Books, 1994), which states, "Even in 1832, after considerable migration had taken place, it is generally accepted [Bournoutian's emphasis] that Muslims were a majority in Karabakh. An official Russian survey of that year recorded that Muslims made up 64.8 percent of the region and Armenians 34.8 percent" (p. 158). The note cites my article as the sole source. The survey, which I have never seen or cited, is now attributed to me.
Having disposed of one myth, I shall concentrate on the question of the immigration of Armenians from Iran and Turkey into Karabakh. Between 1828 and 1831, 45,207 Armenians immigrated to Erevan (23,568 from Iran and 21,639 from Turkey), and 3,883 to Nakhichevan (3,856 from Iran and 27 from Turkey).(9) The Armenians of Bayazid desired to settle in Karabakh but were told that there was not enough land for them there. They were encouraged rather to settle around Lake Sevan, where Muslim tribes had evacuated. They did, and the district became known as Novo-Bayazid or New Bayazid (later Gavar and Kamo).(10) The only work which deals primarily with the Armenian immigration from Persian Azerbaijan to Russia is by Sergei Glinka.(11) He does not supply any numbers, but makes it clear that the majority of the Armenians were headed towards the newly-established Armenian Province, created from the Khanates of Erevan and Nakhichevan. An archival document, however, does shine some light on the issue. The document states that only 279 Armenian families decided to immigrate to Karabakh, and that they settled in Kapan and Meghri on the banks of the Arax (in the southernmost part of Zangezur bordering Iran).(12) All documents relating to the Armenian immigration make it clear that Russia, for political, military, and economic reasons, strongly encouraged the Armenians to settle in the newly-established Armenian province, especially the region of Erevan, which between 1795 and 1827 had lost some 20,000 Armenians who had immigrated to Georgia.(13) Since few Georgian Armenians planned to return, Russia concentrated on repatriating the Armenians taken to Iran in the seventeenth century by Shah Abbas. The only major immigration into Karabakh was by the former Armenians of Karabakh who had escaped the oppression of its ruler Ebrahim Khan,(14) some as late as the 1790s, who had sought refuge in Ganje, Georgia, and Erevan. They began returning home after a decade or so, following the Russian protectorate over Karabakh in 1805 and continued to do so until the 1820s. According to archival documents most of them returned to their own villages, which, for the most part, had remained abandoned.(15)
-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I accept and exclude sources based on the qualifications of their authors. I look at the environment they are writing in, what their degrees are in (Cornell, e.g., is not even a historian but a political scientist), I look at the professionalism of their writing and how careful they are in making their judgment with the sources they have at their disposal, and I look at the sources they use to ensure that they themselves are taking their own works seriously. In all this, quantity is worthless: 100 authors can write that the earth is flat but a single scholar who challenges that belief and demonstrates convincingly that it is round can upturn a widely held belief. The fact that you do not even raise questions relating to a source's qualifications (affiliation is somewhat of a moot point) and simply go about invoking ethnicity as a possible inhibitor to a source is grounds for concern and I make it known. I do not do anything to "entrap" others so please accept the responsibility and the consequences of the statements you make.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 17:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
This is about the 1823 census so please stop diverting this issue elsewhere. My original point still stands - Bournoutian's research and level of expertise outweighs those of the three authors' which Neftchi introduced on the basis that he has seen the original document, he is a peer-reviewed historian, and his field is early modern Iranian and Russian history. Once I have a copy of the translation of the 1823 census, we can use it to confirm what the scholar says.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
That's a personal interpretation that, needless to say, I disagree with and a vague and poor one at that. Neftchi's edits speak for themselves when we see that the information he added includes confusing the data of Highland Karabakh with Lowland Karabakh, alongside the entire province of Karabakh (which included a huge swath of territory besides Karabakh, something that Cornell himself admits). This is unfortunately not the first time we've had to clarify the language in Neftchi's edits and so we must be grateful to Vacio for the quick catch. You know my position regarding scholars who work in constricted political environments and are forced to toe a politically-charged line which they themselves may not believe in. But if you can demonstrate that said scholars have a positive reputation in the West, are peer-reviewed, adhere to modern scholarship standards and do not resort to erasing the names of historical peoples and places from maps and other primary sources, then I think I would be willing to reconsider my position.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 19:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Scholars should be on guard when using Soviet and post-Soviet Azeri editions of Azeri, Persian, and even Russian and Western European sources printed in Baku. These have been edited to remove references to Armenians and have been distributed in large numbers in recent years. When utilizing such sources, the researchers should seek out pre-Soviet editions wherever possible. Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2001, p. 291
A huge thanks to Vacio for figuring out the reason as to why we got such diametrically different figures (namely, that Bornoutian was reporting the statistics for the region of Highland Karabakh while Neftchi, without any attempt at clarification, added figures of the entire Karabakh khanate). I have expanded the body of the text a bit, addressing the reason of the demographic shift from predominantly Armenian to predominantly Muslim, have made grammar corrections, and added more reliable sources and removed the work by Goldenberg, given the serious questions revolving around her reliability (as highlighted by Bornoutian). I also switched the order of the spelling in the lede by keeping it in line with the English alphabet (Ar. before Az.), which only seems to makes sense in such contentious articles as these.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 19:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence of off-Wiki coordination? Because, the last time I checked, that's one hell of an accusation to level against other editors. I suppose it did not occur to you that your edits could be so contentious in content and added in so mendacious a manner that they might actually attract the attention of other users. For the last time, what is wrong with Bournoutian as a source? Why do you dismiss him so casually as someone who is bound to write "POV" (which you use in such a vague and unspecified manner) and assign equal, if not greater, credibility to authors who are neither experts in the area we are talking about nor historians? You have mentioned his ethnic heritage several times now, enough to warrant another ban, and have co-opted articles as if they are a very special part of your domain.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Tuscumbia, we all know that your version of the edits are worded in such a way that would not be acceptable elsewhere on Wikipedia. Weasel wording abounds. We have phrases like, "Additionally, the assumption for demographic disbalance is that..." and "It is also claimed that the Armenians..." This is not how you write an article; you do not obfuscate, distort, and try to marginalize the findings of a serious scholar by phrasing it in such a way to cast serious doubt on his research. Furthermore, you should not try to place it on an even plane by including individuals (like Suzanne Goldenberg) whose academic reliability is shown to be in question. You shoehorned your POV edits originally and I was hopeful that you might make those edits yourself. The question of order of spelling is a matter of what comes first in the alphabet; origin or etymology is not important. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 20:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm just a simple country chicken lawyer baCAWWWK but I'd like to remind you fine folks that this here article and its editors fall under the provisions of WP:AA2, and as such braAWWwk it would be nice if y'all could not get into an edit war or incivil discussion. Now be good, y'hear? -- Golbez ( talk) 20:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Im concerned by the misleading writing by Marshal. Its well established that by - Caucasian Tatars and Muslims in the Caucasus - its meant Azerbaijanis. Here are just a few academic sources confirming this [7], [ http://books.google.nl/books?id=ZeP7OZZswtcC&pg=PA8&dq=Caucasian+tatars+azerbaijanis&hl=nl&output=html_text&cd=3 ], [8]. Mursel ( talk) 00:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
No Muslim in the region at the start of the 19th century would have described himself as an Azerbaijani. Loyalties lay with their families, their tribes, their religion, and so on. Nationalism among the Muslims of the South Caucasus did not develop until much later so it's important not to brush them with too broad a stroke. And let's not even start with the litany of misleading edits you have made in the past Neftchi. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 02:00, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I feel the need to protect this. I feel the need to protect it on the right version. That right version will be the one with these paragraphs excised entirely. -- Golbez ( talk) 21:24, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Neftchi, your presence on this talk page, and all others for that matter, has been negligible. Unless you have something meaningful to contribute, please get off your horse and stop pretending that mendacious POV pushing is not at play here.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 17:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't see a point in having two article, one called Karabakh, and one Nagorno-Karabakh. The content seems to be very similar, the topic is pretty much the same, and the section on the name can explain how the name(s) have been used over time and in current times. Is there a reason I am not thinking of to explain the existence of these two article? Shouldn't they be merged? Wikiboer ( talk) 15:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
It seems crazy to have an article about a geographic region without having a map indicating where this area of the world is. There must be one that doesn't set off a political debate. Liz Read! Talk! 10:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I accidentally deleted the edit note for [this revert]( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Karabakh&diff=prev&oldid=710485539): the source says plain in Armenia. -- va c io 06:08, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
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It starts with "Karabakh is a geographic region in present-day eastern Armenia...". But this is not true (you can check it in the map) and therefore needs to be removed. It is FULLY within the internationally recognized borders of Azerbaijan. This is a sensitive issue and therefore needs a cautious attention.
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Whatever the ongoing disputes, I think localisation of Karabakh in the "present-day /.../ eastern Armenia" is outright wrong. Separatism is an issue, the region is occupied by the Armenian army, but I have never read anywhere that Armenia presented it as its own land. Even if it was the case, this claim has never been recognized by any country in the world. Karabakh Armenians claim their "independence". De jure, it is still sovereign territory of Azerbaijan. Please comment on this before I correct that. 2A01:E34:EEC4:FAA0:7548:FA0E:E38A:BB8D ( talk) 00:26, 14 November 2013 (UTC) kazim
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:06, 18 May 2019 (UTC)