This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject New Zealand, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
New Zealand and
New Zealand-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New ZealandWikipedia:WikiProject New ZealandTemplate:WikiProject New ZealandNew Zealand articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: no consensus.
This is an unusual case, as noted by Nurg. A simple count of the !votes shows 8 editors supporting the move and 4 opposing (including ShakyIsles as the question of merging is out of scope of this RM). However, Spekkios has expressly made their support conditional on guidelines supporting a move, and 3 other supporting editors have based their support on
WP:NZNC, official usage and/or our convention on macron usage. For the reason stated below, these are all based on a misconception and I discount them. Accordingly, there is no consensus.
WP:NZNC says that we follow the New Zealand Gazetteer. This reflects
this careful RfC, which has been referred to below as The Great Macron Debate. In essence, the RfC reached a strong consensus that common usage follows the Gazetteer. Based on the comments below, the Gazetteer has no entry specifically for Kapiti Coast, so
WP:NZNC simply throws us back on
WP:COMMONNAME. The Gazetteer does have an entry for
Kapiti Coast District, spelt thus, and that article follows their spelling.
It appears that this is subject to ongoing discussion at the New Zealand Geographic Board (and within the Māori community) and it may be sensible for us to wait on the outcome of that per Schwede66 and Giantflightlessbirds
Kapiti Coast → Kāpiti Coast – The Kāpiti Coast District Council[1] recognize the name of the coast should include a Macron over the "a". This also impacts the pronunciation of the name. While kapiti is also a Te Reo word, Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Maori has advocated for the use of the macron in place names when in keeping with Local Iwi pronunciation, as Kāpiti does. [2]
References
^"Home Page". Kāpiti Coast. NZGOVT. Retrieved 31 July 2021.
Comment. This is an unusual case, for several reasons. Firstly, there is no unanimity among Māori about whether it is a long vowel. The Māori word kapiti does not have a long vowel. Some Māori say that the name comes from āpiti, which does have a long vowel, but it does not have a 'k'. There is some suggestion that "ka āpiti" has been contracted to form kāpiti. Secondly, Kāpiti Coast District Council uses the macron, so the case is stronger for adding the macron to the title
Kapiti Coast District. Curiously, it has only been requested to add the macron to this article. Perhaps that was an oversight. Thirdly, I wonder whether we even need this article or whether it should be merged into
Kapiti Coast District. The scope of this article is vaguely defined: "the Kapiti Coast in common parlance occasionally includes the neighbouring areas south to Plimmerton ... and in the north includes some of the coastal areas of Horowhenua, such as Waikawa Beach and even Hokio Beach". No citation is provided to support this. Fourthly, if this article is kept separate, does Kāpiti Coast District Council's usage apply to this wider area that extends outside Kapiti Coast District to Plimmerton etc?
Nurg (
talk)
02:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't think we should have the coast and the island spelled differently. It seems unnecessary to have separate discussions.
Vpab15 (
talk)
14:35, 11 August 2021 (UTC)reply
There are numerous cases where an official name has a macron and another feature with the same name (unofficial or official) does not – this is a process being resolved, gradually, by the NZGB, and in ther meantime creates inconsistency both in the real world and in Wikipedia. See
Mahināpua Creek which flows under the
Mahinapua Creek Rail Bridge Historic Reserve (both official names) for example. —
Giantflightlessbirds (
talk)
08:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose The NZGB Gazetteer doesn't use the macron. My understanding of the policy is that once, or if, NZBG uses a macron then we should too.
Nauseous Man (
talk)
01:21, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment The Kāpiti Coast isn't a distinct entity on the Gazetteer, in the same way that the
Hibiscus Coast also isn't listed. The closest is "Kapiti Coast District" which, as you say, doesn't have a macron - however, the definition states it as "the area administered by Kapiti Coast District Council", who do use a macron
on their website for Kāpiti.
Turnagra (
talk)
06:51, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment No NZGB Gazetteer usages of "Kapiti" have a macron, including the relevant official one, the Kapiti Coast District (which was gazetted back in 1989 when nothing took a macron – so this is due to be rexamined, like some other official names). Some names made official more recently include
Kapiti Seavalley (2018),
Kapiti Marine Reserve (2009), and
Kapiti Island Nature Reserve (2009). I understand from a NZGB representative that "Kapiti/Kāpiti" is taking a while to be resolved, as there's disagreement between the Māori Language Commission and local iwi as to the correct spelling (see the
Kapiti Island article for a summary of this). I personally would hold off changing until official names with macrons are announced. In the
Great Macron Debate, we agreed to go by official names in the NZGB Gazetteer; if there is no official name, then we would go by common usage, but that then begins a much more involved discussion over whether recent news stories, magazines, books, official databases, encyclopedias and other reliable sources currently favour "Kāpiti". Just pointing out that in the real world this is one of the most contentious macron usage examples in New Zealand. —
Giantflightlessbirds (
talk)
08:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Support as per nomination and the Wikipedia convention on macron usage. I think it is good to do this article separately to others similar rather than try to work through conventions and common use arguments for other articles at the same time.
Pakoire (
talk)
23:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Support - If this is the official name for this subject then this is what the subject's name should be. Even despite common use of omitting macrons, there is cultural significance in keeping the macron, especially given the Māori pronunciation and spelling of the location.
Qwertyxp2000 (
talk |
contribs)
05:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Leaning oppose My thoughts align with many of the concerns that Nurg has outlined. Given that, I'd rather wait for the New Zealand Geographic Board to make a determination. Schwede6610:13, 1 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge with
Kapiti Coast District. They seem to cover very similar topics. If no merge then I oppose. I'd normally strongly support macron usage but it seems in contention in this case and as other have said best wait for Geographic Board before making a change.
ShakyIsles (
talk)
00:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Panamitsu a number of reasons, one of them being that they might know that the council uses it (though local government isn't the beacon of
tika). I've found it's always best to believe that editors are acting in good faith.
Nauseous Man (
talk)
09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)reply
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject New Zealand, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
New Zealand and
New Zealand-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New ZealandWikipedia:WikiProject New ZealandTemplate:WikiProject New ZealandNew Zealand articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: no consensus.
This is an unusual case, as noted by Nurg. A simple count of the !votes shows 8 editors supporting the move and 4 opposing (including ShakyIsles as the question of merging is out of scope of this RM). However, Spekkios has expressly made their support conditional on guidelines supporting a move, and 3 other supporting editors have based their support on
WP:NZNC, official usage and/or our convention on macron usage. For the reason stated below, these are all based on a misconception and I discount them. Accordingly, there is no consensus.
WP:NZNC says that we follow the New Zealand Gazetteer. This reflects
this careful RfC, which has been referred to below as The Great Macron Debate. In essence, the RfC reached a strong consensus that common usage follows the Gazetteer. Based on the comments below, the Gazetteer has no entry specifically for Kapiti Coast, so
WP:NZNC simply throws us back on
WP:COMMONNAME. The Gazetteer does have an entry for
Kapiti Coast District, spelt thus, and that article follows their spelling.
It appears that this is subject to ongoing discussion at the New Zealand Geographic Board (and within the Māori community) and it may be sensible for us to wait on the outcome of that per Schwede66 and Giantflightlessbirds
Kapiti Coast → Kāpiti Coast – The Kāpiti Coast District Council[1] recognize the name of the coast should include a Macron over the "a". This also impacts the pronunciation of the name. While kapiti is also a Te Reo word, Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Maori has advocated for the use of the macron in place names when in keeping with Local Iwi pronunciation, as Kāpiti does. [2]
References
^"Home Page". Kāpiti Coast. NZGOVT. Retrieved 31 July 2021.
Comment. This is an unusual case, for several reasons. Firstly, there is no unanimity among Māori about whether it is a long vowel. The Māori word kapiti does not have a long vowel. Some Māori say that the name comes from āpiti, which does have a long vowel, but it does not have a 'k'. There is some suggestion that "ka āpiti" has been contracted to form kāpiti. Secondly, Kāpiti Coast District Council uses the macron, so the case is stronger for adding the macron to the title
Kapiti Coast District. Curiously, it has only been requested to add the macron to this article. Perhaps that was an oversight. Thirdly, I wonder whether we even need this article or whether it should be merged into
Kapiti Coast District. The scope of this article is vaguely defined: "the Kapiti Coast in common parlance occasionally includes the neighbouring areas south to Plimmerton ... and in the north includes some of the coastal areas of Horowhenua, such as Waikawa Beach and even Hokio Beach". No citation is provided to support this. Fourthly, if this article is kept separate, does Kāpiti Coast District Council's usage apply to this wider area that extends outside Kapiti Coast District to Plimmerton etc?
Nurg (
talk)
02:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't think we should have the coast and the island spelled differently. It seems unnecessary to have separate discussions.
Vpab15 (
talk)
14:35, 11 August 2021 (UTC)reply
There are numerous cases where an official name has a macron and another feature with the same name (unofficial or official) does not – this is a process being resolved, gradually, by the NZGB, and in ther meantime creates inconsistency both in the real world and in Wikipedia. See
Mahināpua Creek which flows under the
Mahinapua Creek Rail Bridge Historic Reserve (both official names) for example. —
Giantflightlessbirds (
talk)
08:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose The NZGB Gazetteer doesn't use the macron. My understanding of the policy is that once, or if, NZBG uses a macron then we should too.
Nauseous Man (
talk)
01:21, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment The Kāpiti Coast isn't a distinct entity on the Gazetteer, in the same way that the
Hibiscus Coast also isn't listed. The closest is "Kapiti Coast District" which, as you say, doesn't have a macron - however, the definition states it as "the area administered by Kapiti Coast District Council", who do use a macron
on their website for Kāpiti.
Turnagra (
talk)
06:51, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment No NZGB Gazetteer usages of "Kapiti" have a macron, including the relevant official one, the Kapiti Coast District (which was gazetted back in 1989 when nothing took a macron – so this is due to be rexamined, like some other official names). Some names made official more recently include
Kapiti Seavalley (2018),
Kapiti Marine Reserve (2009), and
Kapiti Island Nature Reserve (2009). I understand from a NZGB representative that "Kapiti/Kāpiti" is taking a while to be resolved, as there's disagreement between the Māori Language Commission and local iwi as to the correct spelling (see the
Kapiti Island article for a summary of this). I personally would hold off changing until official names with macrons are announced. In the
Great Macron Debate, we agreed to go by official names in the NZGB Gazetteer; if there is no official name, then we would go by common usage, but that then begins a much more involved discussion over whether recent news stories, magazines, books, official databases, encyclopedias and other reliable sources currently favour "Kāpiti". Just pointing out that in the real world this is one of the most contentious macron usage examples in New Zealand. —
Giantflightlessbirds (
talk)
08:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Support as per nomination and the Wikipedia convention on macron usage. I think it is good to do this article separately to others similar rather than try to work through conventions and common use arguments for other articles at the same time.
Pakoire (
talk)
23:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Support - If this is the official name for this subject then this is what the subject's name should be. Even despite common use of omitting macrons, there is cultural significance in keeping the macron, especially given the Māori pronunciation and spelling of the location.
Qwertyxp2000 (
talk |
contribs)
05:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Leaning oppose My thoughts align with many of the concerns that Nurg has outlined. Given that, I'd rather wait for the New Zealand Geographic Board to make a determination. Schwede6610:13, 1 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge with
Kapiti Coast District. They seem to cover very similar topics. If no merge then I oppose. I'd normally strongly support macron usage but it seems in contention in this case and as other have said best wait for Geographic Board before making a change.
ShakyIsles (
talk)
00:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Panamitsu a number of reasons, one of them being that they might know that the council uses it (though local government isn't the beacon of
tika). I've found it's always best to believe that editors are acting in good faith.
Nauseous Man (
talk)
09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)reply