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Hi Daulakh... I have provided enough evidences with all the text which I have added, If you have any doubts on Amnesty International's Reports or on rest of the references then please talk, but please do not suppress the truth. Please go through the provided references first. I have not deleted any of the information, I have simply added more alongwith references. This is Wikipedia and I beleive that I have the same rights as you. So with due respect, it is my humble request that please do not delete the information which I have added recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singh6 ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted your changes to a POV version. Please read your talk page. -- Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 17:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The NPOV version is from a BBC profile. I'm leaving it here until I can work out a version that's not directly from the article.
There were serious charges levelled against him and his police by human rights activists that thousands of suspects were killed in staged shootouts and thousands of bodies were cremated/disposed without proper identification or post-mortem. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. Police under his commnad used in-human torture techniques to extract information from Sikh Militants and in their killings, Gurdev Singh 'Debu' an area commander of Khalistan Commando Force, was boiled alive by his police [6]. Even Khushwant Singh is said to have gone volte-face after reading the research Reduced to Ashes Book by a human rights group [7] [8] and remarked "It is spine-chilling.... Well, Mr Gill, it is not rubbish; you and the Punjab police have quite a few awkward questions to answer" [7].
Several number of Sikh women - teenage girls, young and old women, were also gangraped and molested by Indian security forces during house to house searches. Looting of the villagers’ property and ransacking of the entire villages also happened during his reign. [9] [10]
I have added Amnesty International Report as a reference> [11] ( http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA20/002/2003/en/uvSEW2lMY-gJ)
References
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
Surely there needs to be some discussion on the widely discussed issue of Gill's involvement in human rigts abuses in the Punjab. Note that Amnesty Interbational have labelled him the 'butcher of Punjab' and many sikhs regard him as a traitor.
There also needs to be a dit on Gill's conviction for sexual harrashment.
This whole article is very misleading!!
MSprealMF 2111hrs 28/06/07
The article has a {{Cherry-picking}} tag but no explanation of the issue. I am going to remove the tag as the editor Satanoid is not explaining why s/he feels that. Seeing Satanoid's history, I'm not too excited that s/he will explain the tagging. Nevetheless, I'll be fine if the editor comes back and explains - we can discuss. However, I'll let the POV tag intact because I feel there are certain issues which needs fixing before that tag can be removed. Can someone explain the POV part as well. Thanks, -- RoadAhead =Discuss= 21:03, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
"Gill became involved in sports administration after retirement from police work and was the President of the Indian Hockey Federation" --> This is not correct language (I think) it needs fixing because currently it reflects to the reader that the subject "became involved" voluntarily or so. Perhaps we should work on finding the facts around this, or fix the language to not give such impression. -- RoadAhead =Discuss= 21:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
The edit war over this seems to have died, but the article is littered with editwar debris and unsourced or poorly sourced content, some of it rather rude, some of it rather too glowing. I killed a couple of bits but not going to spend a lot of time on it. Hopefully someone who knows more will apply the editorial hatchet to the bits that need to go. - sinneed ( talk) 04:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't belong in a
wp:BLP at all. REALLY doesn't belong in the
wp:lead of a BLP.
- sinneed (
talk) 12:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I won't kill this again,
wp:lead, but I think that it doesn't belong in the lead, and that it doesn't belong per
wp:BLP. Maybe an article about the Punjab police actions in that time period.
- sinneed (
talk) 13:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It don't feel terribly strongly about this, and an anon editor does. Flagged. - sinneed ( talk) 16:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Question:
A lot of 'experts' on KPS Gill have given their bit or psedo-history (POV) on various allegations and his involvement in National Sports events etc. He was also in the business of Indian National Security, thwarting terrorism and most importantly these 'experts' such as Sinneed and Roadahead don't mention anything about his role in the Gujarat Police ? You got anything against mentioning anything on that Sinneed ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morbid Fairy ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Former is used due to copyright violations, enjoy Morbid Fairy ( talk) 19:30, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Clearly, there are conflicting reports in the press. The bare statements in the lead are misleading, and I am removing them formally. If they are restored, I will flag them and alert the BLP noticeboard. I will not remove them again. - sinneed ( talk) 04:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
The wild statements attributed to nameless organizations cannot. Please provide quotes, from sources, cited, meeting wp:RS. If you just can't, please provide the location in the source you are citing. I don't see it there. It is certainly possible that I missed it, since you are at least paraphrasing and won't be copying. - sinneed ( talk) 23:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Namless... not named. Please add the sources, provide quotes or locations. I see you adding wp:OR that I see as libel in a wp:BLP. - sinneed ( talk) 23:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Terrorism <> Militancy in and of itself is not a PoV term. Calling an attack a terrorist act, or a person a terrorist or an organization a terrorist one... those would be PoV in many cases. Clearly there was terrorism in Punjab. Buses and planes bombed, with the target being no one in particular, just whoever showed up at the bus stop during that 10 minutes, is clearly terrorism, I should think... but in this case it is moot. - sinneed ( talk) 03:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
against themselves. -- 99.51.223.161 ( talk) 03:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
South Asia Terrorism Portal/Institute for Conflict Management references can NOT be used in Khalistan movement related articles because it is headed by KPS Gill himself, who was a party in the Khalistan movement and who is blamed for mass murders and mass cremations by Human Rights Watch, ENSAAF and other Human Rights Organizations. it violates wp:pov in Sikhism, Khalistan movement etc related articles.
As we can NOT use any Khalistani mouth pieces in these articles, similarly we can NOT use KPS Gill's own mouth piece in them. I will delete all of its references in any Sikhism, Khalistan movement related articles and I will expect all neutral editors to do the same. -- 99.51.223.161 ( talk) 03:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
"He was appointed as a consultant by the Chhattisgarh government of India to help tackle the Naxalite movement in the state from 2007 to 2008." As this has only a primary source, and seems of secondary importance, I have pulled it here for possible addition. - sinneed ( talk) 04:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I had to kill a references which unfortunately violates wp:npov. It support following sentence:
He was appointed as a consultant by the Chhattisgarh government of India to help tackle the Naxalite movement in the state from 2007 to 2008.
I will appreciate if any other editors could provide any other NPOV reference to support this text. -- 99.51.223.161 ( talk) 04:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- sinneed ( talk) 08:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
References
I am questioning the need of this subsection. did KPS Gill murder this person ??? if not then why such a prominent subsection in this article. does not seem NPOV at all Wikireader41 ( talk) 17:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
This murder has its own article, which is rather poor. I propose to move most of this content to his article, murder section, and leave what is here focused on the involvement of the subject person. - sinneed ( talk) 18:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I see a 1999 collection of work into a book, but is this an electronic-only thing? If so, does it have an existence outside the web site? Does it deserve a separate mention at all?
At the moment, I think it does rate a mention, I see a number of academic citations and press references. I do think it is essentially part of the web site... but in this age of emedia I am not sure that matters. - sinneed ( talk) 15:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
There is an entire article on the HR in Punjab, with the laws and immunity already discussed. It is clear to me that this does not belong here. Does it belong there? This is a wp:BLP. There are specific calls for prosecution of Gill, and those *MIGHT* go here if they are adequately noted and meet wp:BLP in all other ways. - sinneed ( talk) 19:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Beyond the 2 points already discussed, this needs to be sharply focused on Gill... this is a wp:BLP, and everything mentioned must tie to him, and do so in a way that does not libel him and also does not violate wp:BLP. - sinneed ( talk) 19:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
While referring to KPS Gill's letter to Prime minister of India, Julio Ribeiro mentioned that in many cases the security forces committed excesses and it was requested from the state to defend the involved police officers strongly<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19970618/16950043.html The Indian Express, June 18, 1997]</ref>. The following day, a minister in state of Punjab declared that the state government will defend all police officers who had to committ mistakes while fighting against the separatists<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19970619/17050343.html The Indian Express June 19, 1997]</ref>.
Prakash Singh, an Inspecter General ranked police officer, while supporting KPS Gill's views to support the police officers which were being victimised because of human rights issues, has mentioned that 'whatever was carried out in Punjab to eliminate militancy was done under the complete knowledge and tacit approval of government officials upto the level of Prime Minister and rest of India knew about it. Another Punjab police chief P C Dogra, while referring to 2500 writ petitions filed against state police until then, had mentioned that Punjab Police was asking for a legislation since year 1993 to protect all the police officers who fought against militants<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19970526/14650203.html The Indian Express, May 26, 1997]</ref>
This is way too much unfocused and negatively worded content for a wp:BLP. wp:BRD... it was Boldly added, and is now Reverted. Let us discuss why this belongs in an article about a living person. It does seem appropriate, for the article about HR in Punjab. - sinneed ( talk) 12:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
would propose a section on punjab insurgency with a brief backgrounder for the new reader and a link to main article. His role in defeating it needs to be discussed in detail since that was his main achievement. the widespread violations of Human rights during that era needs to be given due weight & have a subsection within this section with allegations about his involvement in death of Khalra as reported in RS mentioned in there. Wikireader41 ( talk) 01:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
interesting that this report on Khalra has NO mention of KPS Gill. [2] Wikireader41 ( talk) 14:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
this looks much more NPOV to me. its a shame they are exceeding WP standards now [3] Wikireader41 ( talk) 14:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
wp:Lead. I struggle with starting off with his retirement, but the lead will bloat if we put all the complexity of his serving as DGP twice, etc.
The 1st sentence needs to explain his main notability, which seems to be clearly related to crushing the Punjab insurgency in the 80s and 90s as DGP. - sinneed ( talk) 19:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Rest look Ok for now.-- 144.160.130.16 ( talk) 00:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
right now this section is bigger than the entire section on his IPS career ?? appears as though The HR violations are his main claim to fame. we need to a) expand the section dealing with his role in fighting the separatists in Panjab b) pare down the section on HR violations to a more reasonable size Wikireader41 ( talk) 20:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
At that time, KPS Gill had been the head of the Indian Hockey Federation (IHF) roughly for 15 years. Press variously reported that Gill was "...sacked..."<ref name="exprsacked"/> or stated that the IOA was "...removing him by suspending the IHF..."<ref name="exprsacked"/> or stated "While Gill wasn’t specifically ‘sacked’..."<ref name=IHFsuspended2 /> In any event, KPS Gill was reportedly to lead the Indian Hockey Federation (IHF) in June 2009 meetings with the new [[Hockey India]] organization.<ref name="GillCoop"/>
Clearly, since the IHF was not under the control of the IOA, the IOA could not fire anyone there. As of last month, Gill was still in charge of the IHF, which still exists. It simply doesn't provide an Olympic team for India anymore. - sinneed ( talk) 03:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Erk. I lost a chunk of text. I am copying this here to gain consensus for its inclusion. wp:BRD... it was boldly added, after much review and research I have deleted it, and now we should reach wp:consensus on whether it belongs. It is damaging to Gill, it is poorly sourced (that is, the sources clearly conflict).
If we need any more coverage of this, then this may be worth considering:
On June 15, 2009, the IHF met with the new Hockey India organization and established a team to work out a merger of the 2 organizations within 45 days.
[1]
Gill, head of the IHF,
[1] stated that he will not be a candidate for the leading position of the new organization.
[2]
I have no opinion, but the sources were there so I drafted something up. - sinneed ( talk) 02:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
He is known to be a controversial figure because of his role in Assam <ref>[http://ia.rediff.com/www/news/2003/apr/25assam.htm Rediff]</ref>, Punjab<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/20000521/profile.htm Indian Express, Supercop to the rescue]</ref><ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=Bl5tSd-1wwsC&pg=PA448&lpg=PA448&dq=KPS+Gill+controversial+officer&source=bl&ots=OHApNw1J2W&sig=ATF712-FpTEWxQAKkLkmWWhcgVs&hl=en&ei=31tUSvnkM4KyswPqmfWYDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9 Democracy and counterterrorism by Robert J. Art, Louise Richardson]</ref>, Indian Hockey federation<ref>[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/MS-Gill/quickiearticleshow/4592400.cms The Times of India, Know your ministers: MS Gill]</ref><ref>http://www.inewsindia.com/2008/04/22/hockey-controversy-sports-minister-asks-kps-gill-to-quit/</ref>, Human rights violations in Punjab<ref>[http://se1.isn.ch/serviceengine/FileContent?serviceID=47&fileid=DA6F44FD-F458-E011-053E-44D087E2F39B&lng=en IPCS Special Report Left Extremism in India]</ref> and his conviction in a sexual harassment case in India<ref name="KPSGillProfile"/> etc.
He is known to be a controversial figure because of his role in Assam [1], Punjab [2] [3], Indian Hockey federation [4] [5], Human rights violations in Punjab [6] and his conviction in a sexual harassment case in India [7] etc.
References
KPSGillProfile
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Why are the double-periods at the end of the sentences important? In English, sentences end in a single period. Please stop. - sinneed ( talk) 12:59, 8 July 2009 (UTC) Conversely, sentences in English end in a period. When adding content, please add them. - sinneed ( talk) 14:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
the article now looks a lot better and a lot more neutral. good job all contributing editors especially sinneed. Do we really need so many references saying that KPS founded ICM and is its president ??? I think that is a pretty well established and uncontested fact. most info in the article is not sourced from SATP anyway. 00:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
-- - sinneed ( talk) 02:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Gill founded the Institute for Conflict Management (ICM) [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] and was its first[41] president. [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] Press reports have noted that he "runs"[6][48][49] or "heads"[50] the ICM. As of July 2009, Gill remains president.
I strongly believe this is a ridiculous amount of content, the only valuable part of which I see as:
"Gill is the president of the Institute for Conflict Management (ICM)."
with 2 references.
1 the BBC profile, 1 the company profile for its chief executive.
The wp:SELFPUB source would comply with wp:BLP as well as the less-stringent wp:RS. Company web sites are quite acceptable for UNCONTESTED content about their executives, in Wikipedia. I believe that hammering away at the wp:point that Gill controls the ICM is wp:tendentious editing. Most of us know that the president generally runs the company, and resources are available for the rest to look it up. - sinneed ( talk) 13:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a well known national level organization run by a Sikh Maninder Singh Bitta. the award given to Gill is notable enough for a one sentence mention. I am contemplating writing an article on MS Bitta and AIATF . plenty of references are available in RS unlike ensaaf.org Thank You. Wikireader41 ( talk) 13:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I share the anon concern about the Gill quotes of opinion in the career section. If these belong in the article, please move them out of the career section. Perhaps a "Gill's political opinion" or "Gill's political commentary" section or something. Please consider whether they are needed at all. I used the editorial hatchet on a good bit of this before. - sinneed ( talk) 14:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I cut "Sexual harassment conviction" and "Public Fear - Jaswant Singh Khalra's murder". Neither is appropriate. It may be we need subsubs, but they will need to be neutral or wp:BALANCED. Neither of those is acceptable, even if they were presented with "balance". I have confidence you will find little support for them.
To understand that they are not, imagine if someone put in headings like "Public Celebration - Gill a hero" and "Gill crushes terrorist scum" and "Gill saves state from babykillers". Clearly this would be no good. (and I would chop them instantly)
It may be that the butt-getting-while-drunk thing is best served by being presented outside the flow... it is only nominally career-related. Doing so overstates its imporance though, so I am dubious. It also has not been wp:BALANCED with his side of the story, and I don't care to do it. - sinneed ( talk) 17:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
His statements critical of Indian govt are notable. how many retired senior cops do this kind of thing ??? especially in a country like India. Wikireader41 ( talk) 20:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
(Moving text here so that consensus could be reached to move it back to the article. Editors were challenging this text again and again. This section deal with the text, if it is notable enough or not)-- 144.160.130.16 ( talk) 21:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Speaking at a seminar in Ludhiana after these attacks he said that statement of Ajmal Kasab arrested in connection with Mumbai strikes, in custody did not have much value under the international law. He also said "The biggest problem with us is our attitude. Changing home ministers for terrorist attack is no solution to tackle the menace which needs to be dealt with a policy. We always wake up when we are left wounded and the government policies are like brush and polish which dress up the incident for the time being." He also stated absence of experts while framing anti-terrorism policies was the biggest reason of terrorism having roots in India. [1]
The 2 edit warriors should stop at once. "Text in question is duly preserved in the talk page, it can only be restored if opposting editors agree to it." is very much not true. However, it is true that the wp:burden is on the editor adding the content to show why the content should be added and make it acceptable to Wikipdedia. Neither of you is discussing here.
wp:BRD... Boldly make a change... change is reverted by an objecting editor... the issue is discussed. Often this process repeats.
But what you are both doing is
wp:edit warring. Bold change. Revert. Restore. Revert and comment. Restore no comment. Revert no comment. Please STOP NOW, and discuss.
Anon, what, besides not having any of that content in the article, would be acceptable to you?
WR, what, besides having all that content in the article, would be acceptable to you.
If the 2 of you have no ground to meet on, then will you just edit war until the article is locked and you are both blocked? - sinneed ( talk) 02:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikireader41 - "most of the content is added without consensus. cant rm without consensus" is also untrue. wp:BRD. Content to which there is no objection is added on a consensus of one. After that, wp:conflict resolution is neeful. Please top the edit war now. - sinneed ( talk) 03:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
References
Moved here so that editors could reach wp:consensus: He also called for early elections in the state at function organized by All India Anti-terrorist Front to honor him with 'Pride of Nation' award. Speaking at the same function Health and Family Welfare Minister Shatrughan Sinha showered praises on him and called him a 'National hero' and credited him with bringing peace to Punjab and Gujarat. [1]
[10], [11], [12], [13] Wikireader41 ( talk) 02:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
[14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] Wikireader41 ( talk) 03:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
References
I am concerned that the activism and opinion section breaks or will break wp:SOAPBOX. These opinions and such, as I understand it, should address issues relating to the subjects notability. For example, his opinions on the butt-getting, his own mixed reception in the world, accusations of HR violations in Punjab and especially in the murder of the activist.
I think you should look hard at each of these bits you have added, and ask whether they belong in an encylopdia article. - sinneed ( talk) 23:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
No one currently on this page has my permission to summarize or otherwise make representations about my opinion. I will attempt to repair the damage done over my signature. - sinneed ( talk) 02:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- sinneed ( talk) 13:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I have signed each chunk for easy discussion. Please do. We are not !vote-ing, no need to try to summarize... this is for open and full discussion.
I had added the BLP and refimprove tags.
I am leaving the POV flag up, as I suspect rather strongly there will never be an article that will be balanced in the view of either his intense supporters nor fierce enemies. If someone removes, I will almost certainly restore it. -- - sinneed ( talk) 04:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC) (edit to add) - Unless there is some reasonable explanation of why it is no longer needful. - sinneed ( talk) 18:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I have signed each chunk for easy discussion. Please do. We are not !vote-ing, no need to try to summarize... this is for open and full discussion.
these are discussed at some length in this research study for US dept of Defence by RAND corporation. [25] where do we put this info. BTW rv ip based vandalism ( removing cited info without consensus) is exempt from 3R rule. I have sought admin intervention on this matter already. Cheers. Wikireader41 ( talk) 04:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Surely this is so, as there is no discussion of changes proposed. - sinneed ( talk) 13:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
"As of July 2009, Gill remained its president and..."
I would like to ask an admin to change this to
"As of July 2009, Gill remained president of the Institute for Conflict Management, and..."
Any concerns? No rush. I'll leave this here a few days to allow for objections or furhter ideas before putting in the request. - sinneed ( talk) 18:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Done, also updated for September. Split the ICM from the IHF.- Sinneed 00:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
There are several dead links. Please see Wikipedia:Dead external links#Repairing and do not delete them. Instead, please mark them as dead links, or better, fix them by finding where they have moved to, or if print, point to the print source. I won't restore them again, and the edit is easily reverted. But please don't.- Sinneed 22:22, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Gill is a giant.Like all pygmies, several lobbies are out to attack him unfairly.People will remember him as a fearless and efficient Officer who finished terrorism in punjab. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factfindergroup ( talk • contribs) 20:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
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The remarks made by some user are derogatory and communalistic which is against the policy of Wikipedia. Admin should put a editing lock ASAP. Someone is adding illegitimate content and vandalising the page. ACTION REQUIRED. Other editors also have objected to the the remarks written AnadiDoD ( talk) 18:42, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Later developments in human rights matters belongs to the Human rights in Punjab, India.most of the material is not about him .Hence removed it. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 01:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
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Hi Daulakh... I have provided enough evidences with all the text which I have added, If you have any doubts on Amnesty International's Reports or on rest of the references then please talk, but please do not suppress the truth. Please go through the provided references first. I have not deleted any of the information, I have simply added more alongwith references. This is Wikipedia and I beleive that I have the same rights as you. So with due respect, it is my humble request that please do not delete the information which I have added recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singh6 ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted your changes to a POV version. Please read your talk page. -- Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 17:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The NPOV version is from a BBC profile. I'm leaving it here until I can work out a version that's not directly from the article.
There were serious charges levelled against him and his police by human rights activists that thousands of suspects were killed in staged shootouts and thousands of bodies were cremated/disposed without proper identification or post-mortem. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. Police under his commnad used in-human torture techniques to extract information from Sikh Militants and in their killings, Gurdev Singh 'Debu' an area commander of Khalistan Commando Force, was boiled alive by his police [6]. Even Khushwant Singh is said to have gone volte-face after reading the research Reduced to Ashes Book by a human rights group [7] [8] and remarked "It is spine-chilling.... Well, Mr Gill, it is not rubbish; you and the Punjab police have quite a few awkward questions to answer" [7].
Several number of Sikh women - teenage girls, young and old women, were also gangraped and molested by Indian security forces during house to house searches. Looting of the villagers’ property and ransacking of the entire villages also happened during his reign. [9] [10]
I have added Amnesty International Report as a reference> [11] ( http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA20/002/2003/en/uvSEW2lMY-gJ)
References
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
Surely there needs to be some discussion on the widely discussed issue of Gill's involvement in human rigts abuses in the Punjab. Note that Amnesty Interbational have labelled him the 'butcher of Punjab' and many sikhs regard him as a traitor.
There also needs to be a dit on Gill's conviction for sexual harrashment.
This whole article is very misleading!!
MSprealMF 2111hrs 28/06/07
The article has a {{Cherry-picking}} tag but no explanation of the issue. I am going to remove the tag as the editor Satanoid is not explaining why s/he feels that. Seeing Satanoid's history, I'm not too excited that s/he will explain the tagging. Nevetheless, I'll be fine if the editor comes back and explains - we can discuss. However, I'll let the POV tag intact because I feel there are certain issues which needs fixing before that tag can be removed. Can someone explain the POV part as well. Thanks, -- RoadAhead =Discuss= 21:03, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
"Gill became involved in sports administration after retirement from police work and was the President of the Indian Hockey Federation" --> This is not correct language (I think) it needs fixing because currently it reflects to the reader that the subject "became involved" voluntarily or so. Perhaps we should work on finding the facts around this, or fix the language to not give such impression. -- RoadAhead =Discuss= 21:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
The edit war over this seems to have died, but the article is littered with editwar debris and unsourced or poorly sourced content, some of it rather rude, some of it rather too glowing. I killed a couple of bits but not going to spend a lot of time on it. Hopefully someone who knows more will apply the editorial hatchet to the bits that need to go. - sinneed ( talk) 04:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't belong in a
wp:BLP at all. REALLY doesn't belong in the
wp:lead of a BLP.
- sinneed (
talk) 12:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I won't kill this again,
wp:lead, but I think that it doesn't belong in the lead, and that it doesn't belong per
wp:BLP. Maybe an article about the Punjab police actions in that time period.
- sinneed (
talk) 13:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It don't feel terribly strongly about this, and an anon editor does. Flagged. - sinneed ( talk) 16:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Question:
A lot of 'experts' on KPS Gill have given their bit or psedo-history (POV) on various allegations and his involvement in National Sports events etc. He was also in the business of Indian National Security, thwarting terrorism and most importantly these 'experts' such as Sinneed and Roadahead don't mention anything about his role in the Gujarat Police ? You got anything against mentioning anything on that Sinneed ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morbid Fairy ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Former is used due to copyright violations, enjoy Morbid Fairy ( talk) 19:30, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Clearly, there are conflicting reports in the press. The bare statements in the lead are misleading, and I am removing them formally. If they are restored, I will flag them and alert the BLP noticeboard. I will not remove them again. - sinneed ( talk) 04:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
The wild statements attributed to nameless organizations cannot. Please provide quotes, from sources, cited, meeting wp:RS. If you just can't, please provide the location in the source you are citing. I don't see it there. It is certainly possible that I missed it, since you are at least paraphrasing and won't be copying. - sinneed ( talk) 23:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Namless... not named. Please add the sources, provide quotes or locations. I see you adding wp:OR that I see as libel in a wp:BLP. - sinneed ( talk) 23:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Terrorism <> Militancy in and of itself is not a PoV term. Calling an attack a terrorist act, or a person a terrorist or an organization a terrorist one... those would be PoV in many cases. Clearly there was terrorism in Punjab. Buses and planes bombed, with the target being no one in particular, just whoever showed up at the bus stop during that 10 minutes, is clearly terrorism, I should think... but in this case it is moot. - sinneed ( talk) 03:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
against themselves. -- 99.51.223.161 ( talk) 03:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
South Asia Terrorism Portal/Institute for Conflict Management references can NOT be used in Khalistan movement related articles because it is headed by KPS Gill himself, who was a party in the Khalistan movement and who is blamed for mass murders and mass cremations by Human Rights Watch, ENSAAF and other Human Rights Organizations. it violates wp:pov in Sikhism, Khalistan movement etc related articles.
As we can NOT use any Khalistani mouth pieces in these articles, similarly we can NOT use KPS Gill's own mouth piece in them. I will delete all of its references in any Sikhism, Khalistan movement related articles and I will expect all neutral editors to do the same. -- 99.51.223.161 ( talk) 03:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
"He was appointed as a consultant by the Chhattisgarh government of India to help tackle the Naxalite movement in the state from 2007 to 2008." As this has only a primary source, and seems of secondary importance, I have pulled it here for possible addition. - sinneed ( talk) 04:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I had to kill a references which unfortunately violates wp:npov. It support following sentence:
He was appointed as a consultant by the Chhattisgarh government of India to help tackle the Naxalite movement in the state from 2007 to 2008.
I will appreciate if any other editors could provide any other NPOV reference to support this text. -- 99.51.223.161 ( talk) 04:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- sinneed ( talk) 08:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
References
I am questioning the need of this subsection. did KPS Gill murder this person ??? if not then why such a prominent subsection in this article. does not seem NPOV at all Wikireader41 ( talk) 17:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
This murder has its own article, which is rather poor. I propose to move most of this content to his article, murder section, and leave what is here focused on the involvement of the subject person. - sinneed ( talk) 18:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I see a 1999 collection of work into a book, but is this an electronic-only thing? If so, does it have an existence outside the web site? Does it deserve a separate mention at all?
At the moment, I think it does rate a mention, I see a number of academic citations and press references. I do think it is essentially part of the web site... but in this age of emedia I am not sure that matters. - sinneed ( talk) 15:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
There is an entire article on the HR in Punjab, with the laws and immunity already discussed. It is clear to me that this does not belong here. Does it belong there? This is a wp:BLP. There are specific calls for prosecution of Gill, and those *MIGHT* go here if they are adequately noted and meet wp:BLP in all other ways. - sinneed ( talk) 19:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Beyond the 2 points already discussed, this needs to be sharply focused on Gill... this is a wp:BLP, and everything mentioned must tie to him, and do so in a way that does not libel him and also does not violate wp:BLP. - sinneed ( talk) 19:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
While referring to KPS Gill's letter to Prime minister of India, Julio Ribeiro mentioned that in many cases the security forces committed excesses and it was requested from the state to defend the involved police officers strongly<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19970618/16950043.html The Indian Express, June 18, 1997]</ref>. The following day, a minister in state of Punjab declared that the state government will defend all police officers who had to committ mistakes while fighting against the separatists<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19970619/17050343.html The Indian Express June 19, 1997]</ref>.
Prakash Singh, an Inspecter General ranked police officer, while supporting KPS Gill's views to support the police officers which were being victimised because of human rights issues, has mentioned that 'whatever was carried out in Punjab to eliminate militancy was done under the complete knowledge and tacit approval of government officials upto the level of Prime Minister and rest of India knew about it. Another Punjab police chief P C Dogra, while referring to 2500 writ petitions filed against state police until then, had mentioned that Punjab Police was asking for a legislation since year 1993 to protect all the police officers who fought against militants<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19970526/14650203.html The Indian Express, May 26, 1997]</ref>
This is way too much unfocused and negatively worded content for a wp:BLP. wp:BRD... it was Boldly added, and is now Reverted. Let us discuss why this belongs in an article about a living person. It does seem appropriate, for the article about HR in Punjab. - sinneed ( talk) 12:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
would propose a section on punjab insurgency with a brief backgrounder for the new reader and a link to main article. His role in defeating it needs to be discussed in detail since that was his main achievement. the widespread violations of Human rights during that era needs to be given due weight & have a subsection within this section with allegations about his involvement in death of Khalra as reported in RS mentioned in there. Wikireader41 ( talk) 01:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
interesting that this report on Khalra has NO mention of KPS Gill. [2] Wikireader41 ( talk) 14:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
this looks much more NPOV to me. its a shame they are exceeding WP standards now [3] Wikireader41 ( talk) 14:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
wp:Lead. I struggle with starting off with his retirement, but the lead will bloat if we put all the complexity of his serving as DGP twice, etc.
The 1st sentence needs to explain his main notability, which seems to be clearly related to crushing the Punjab insurgency in the 80s and 90s as DGP. - sinneed ( talk) 19:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Rest look Ok for now.-- 144.160.130.16 ( talk) 00:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
right now this section is bigger than the entire section on his IPS career ?? appears as though The HR violations are his main claim to fame. we need to a) expand the section dealing with his role in fighting the separatists in Panjab b) pare down the section on HR violations to a more reasonable size Wikireader41 ( talk) 20:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
At that time, KPS Gill had been the head of the Indian Hockey Federation (IHF) roughly for 15 years. Press variously reported that Gill was "...sacked..."<ref name="exprsacked"/> or stated that the IOA was "...removing him by suspending the IHF..."<ref name="exprsacked"/> or stated "While Gill wasn’t specifically ‘sacked’..."<ref name=IHFsuspended2 /> In any event, KPS Gill was reportedly to lead the Indian Hockey Federation (IHF) in June 2009 meetings with the new [[Hockey India]] organization.<ref name="GillCoop"/>
Clearly, since the IHF was not under the control of the IOA, the IOA could not fire anyone there. As of last month, Gill was still in charge of the IHF, which still exists. It simply doesn't provide an Olympic team for India anymore. - sinneed ( talk) 03:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Erk. I lost a chunk of text. I am copying this here to gain consensus for its inclusion. wp:BRD... it was boldly added, after much review and research I have deleted it, and now we should reach wp:consensus on whether it belongs. It is damaging to Gill, it is poorly sourced (that is, the sources clearly conflict).
If we need any more coverage of this, then this may be worth considering:
On June 15, 2009, the IHF met with the new Hockey India organization and established a team to work out a merger of the 2 organizations within 45 days.
[1]
Gill, head of the IHF,
[1] stated that he will not be a candidate for the leading position of the new organization.
[2]
I have no opinion, but the sources were there so I drafted something up. - sinneed ( talk) 02:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
He is known to be a controversial figure because of his role in Assam <ref>[http://ia.rediff.com/www/news/2003/apr/25assam.htm Rediff]</ref>, Punjab<ref>[http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/20000521/profile.htm Indian Express, Supercop to the rescue]</ref><ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=Bl5tSd-1wwsC&pg=PA448&lpg=PA448&dq=KPS+Gill+controversial+officer&source=bl&ots=OHApNw1J2W&sig=ATF712-FpTEWxQAKkLkmWWhcgVs&hl=en&ei=31tUSvnkM4KyswPqmfWYDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9 Democracy and counterterrorism by Robert J. Art, Louise Richardson]</ref>, Indian Hockey federation<ref>[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/MS-Gill/quickiearticleshow/4592400.cms The Times of India, Know your ministers: MS Gill]</ref><ref>http://www.inewsindia.com/2008/04/22/hockey-controversy-sports-minister-asks-kps-gill-to-quit/</ref>, Human rights violations in Punjab<ref>[http://se1.isn.ch/serviceengine/FileContent?serviceID=47&fileid=DA6F44FD-F458-E011-053E-44D087E2F39B&lng=en IPCS Special Report Left Extremism in India]</ref> and his conviction in a sexual harassment case in India<ref name="KPSGillProfile"/> etc.
He is known to be a controversial figure because of his role in Assam [1], Punjab [2] [3], Indian Hockey federation [4] [5], Human rights violations in Punjab [6] and his conviction in a sexual harassment case in India [7] etc.
References
KPSGillProfile
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Why are the double-periods at the end of the sentences important? In English, sentences end in a single period. Please stop. - sinneed ( talk) 12:59, 8 July 2009 (UTC) Conversely, sentences in English end in a period. When adding content, please add them. - sinneed ( talk) 14:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
the article now looks a lot better and a lot more neutral. good job all contributing editors especially sinneed. Do we really need so many references saying that KPS founded ICM and is its president ??? I think that is a pretty well established and uncontested fact. most info in the article is not sourced from SATP anyway. 00:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
-- - sinneed ( talk) 02:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Gill founded the Institute for Conflict Management (ICM) [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] and was its first[41] president. [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] Press reports have noted that he "runs"[6][48][49] or "heads"[50] the ICM. As of July 2009, Gill remains president.
I strongly believe this is a ridiculous amount of content, the only valuable part of which I see as:
"Gill is the president of the Institute for Conflict Management (ICM)."
with 2 references.
1 the BBC profile, 1 the company profile for its chief executive.
The wp:SELFPUB source would comply with wp:BLP as well as the less-stringent wp:RS. Company web sites are quite acceptable for UNCONTESTED content about their executives, in Wikipedia. I believe that hammering away at the wp:point that Gill controls the ICM is wp:tendentious editing. Most of us know that the president generally runs the company, and resources are available for the rest to look it up. - sinneed ( talk) 13:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a well known national level organization run by a Sikh Maninder Singh Bitta. the award given to Gill is notable enough for a one sentence mention. I am contemplating writing an article on MS Bitta and AIATF . plenty of references are available in RS unlike ensaaf.org Thank You. Wikireader41 ( talk) 13:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I share the anon concern about the Gill quotes of opinion in the career section. If these belong in the article, please move them out of the career section. Perhaps a "Gill's political opinion" or "Gill's political commentary" section or something. Please consider whether they are needed at all. I used the editorial hatchet on a good bit of this before. - sinneed ( talk) 14:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I cut "Sexual harassment conviction" and "Public Fear - Jaswant Singh Khalra's murder". Neither is appropriate. It may be we need subsubs, but they will need to be neutral or wp:BALANCED. Neither of those is acceptable, even if they were presented with "balance". I have confidence you will find little support for them.
To understand that they are not, imagine if someone put in headings like "Public Celebration - Gill a hero" and "Gill crushes terrorist scum" and "Gill saves state from babykillers". Clearly this would be no good. (and I would chop them instantly)
It may be that the butt-getting-while-drunk thing is best served by being presented outside the flow... it is only nominally career-related. Doing so overstates its imporance though, so I am dubious. It also has not been wp:BALANCED with his side of the story, and I don't care to do it. - sinneed ( talk) 17:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
His statements critical of Indian govt are notable. how many retired senior cops do this kind of thing ??? especially in a country like India. Wikireader41 ( talk) 20:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
(Moving text here so that consensus could be reached to move it back to the article. Editors were challenging this text again and again. This section deal with the text, if it is notable enough or not)-- 144.160.130.16 ( talk) 21:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Speaking at a seminar in Ludhiana after these attacks he said that statement of Ajmal Kasab arrested in connection with Mumbai strikes, in custody did not have much value under the international law. He also said "The biggest problem with us is our attitude. Changing home ministers for terrorist attack is no solution to tackle the menace which needs to be dealt with a policy. We always wake up when we are left wounded and the government policies are like brush and polish which dress up the incident for the time being." He also stated absence of experts while framing anti-terrorism policies was the biggest reason of terrorism having roots in India. [1]
The 2 edit warriors should stop at once. "Text in question is duly preserved in the talk page, it can only be restored if opposting editors agree to it." is very much not true. However, it is true that the wp:burden is on the editor adding the content to show why the content should be added and make it acceptable to Wikipdedia. Neither of you is discussing here.
wp:BRD... Boldly make a change... change is reverted by an objecting editor... the issue is discussed. Often this process repeats.
But what you are both doing is
wp:edit warring. Bold change. Revert. Restore. Revert and comment. Restore no comment. Revert no comment. Please STOP NOW, and discuss.
Anon, what, besides not having any of that content in the article, would be acceptable to you?
WR, what, besides having all that content in the article, would be acceptable to you.
If the 2 of you have no ground to meet on, then will you just edit war until the article is locked and you are both blocked? - sinneed ( talk) 02:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikireader41 - "most of the content is added without consensus. cant rm without consensus" is also untrue. wp:BRD. Content to which there is no objection is added on a consensus of one. After that, wp:conflict resolution is neeful. Please top the edit war now. - sinneed ( talk) 03:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
References
Moved here so that editors could reach wp:consensus: He also called for early elections in the state at function organized by All India Anti-terrorist Front to honor him with 'Pride of Nation' award. Speaking at the same function Health and Family Welfare Minister Shatrughan Sinha showered praises on him and called him a 'National hero' and credited him with bringing peace to Punjab and Gujarat. [1]
[10], [11], [12], [13] Wikireader41 ( talk) 02:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
[14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] Wikireader41 ( talk) 03:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
References
I am concerned that the activism and opinion section breaks or will break wp:SOAPBOX. These opinions and such, as I understand it, should address issues relating to the subjects notability. For example, his opinions on the butt-getting, his own mixed reception in the world, accusations of HR violations in Punjab and especially in the murder of the activist.
I think you should look hard at each of these bits you have added, and ask whether they belong in an encylopdia article. - sinneed ( talk) 23:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
No one currently on this page has my permission to summarize or otherwise make representations about my opinion. I will attempt to repair the damage done over my signature. - sinneed ( talk) 02:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- sinneed ( talk) 13:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I have signed each chunk for easy discussion. Please do. We are not !vote-ing, no need to try to summarize... this is for open and full discussion.
I had added the BLP and refimprove tags.
I am leaving the POV flag up, as I suspect rather strongly there will never be an article that will be balanced in the view of either his intense supporters nor fierce enemies. If someone removes, I will almost certainly restore it. -- - sinneed ( talk) 04:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC) (edit to add) - Unless there is some reasonable explanation of why it is no longer needful. - sinneed ( talk) 18:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I have signed each chunk for easy discussion. Please do. We are not !vote-ing, no need to try to summarize... this is for open and full discussion.
these are discussed at some length in this research study for US dept of Defence by RAND corporation. [25] where do we put this info. BTW rv ip based vandalism ( removing cited info without consensus) is exempt from 3R rule. I have sought admin intervention on this matter already. Cheers. Wikireader41 ( talk) 04:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Surely this is so, as there is no discussion of changes proposed. - sinneed ( talk) 13:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
"As of July 2009, Gill remained its president and..."
I would like to ask an admin to change this to
"As of July 2009, Gill remained president of the Institute for Conflict Management, and..."
Any concerns? No rush. I'll leave this here a few days to allow for objections or furhter ideas before putting in the request. - sinneed ( talk) 18:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Done, also updated for September. Split the ICM from the IHF.- Sinneed 00:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
There are several dead links. Please see Wikipedia:Dead external links#Repairing and do not delete them. Instead, please mark them as dead links, or better, fix them by finding where they have moved to, or if print, point to the print source. I won't restore them again, and the edit is easily reverted. But please don't.- Sinneed 22:22, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Gill is a giant.Like all pygmies, several lobbies are out to attack him unfairly.People will remember him as a fearless and efficient Officer who finished terrorism in punjab. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factfindergroup ( talk • contribs) 20:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
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The remarks made by some user are derogatory and communalistic which is against the policy of Wikipedia. Admin should put a editing lock ASAP. Someone is adding illegitimate content and vandalising the page. ACTION REQUIRED. Other editors also have objected to the the remarks written AnadiDoD ( talk) 18:42, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Later developments in human rights matters belongs to the Human rights in Punjab, India.most of the material is not about him .Hence removed it. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 01:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:47, 2 January 2018 (UTC)