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Algeria
Kabylie : 4.5 million
Algiers : 50-70% so ~ 1 million
others : ~ 500,000 (annaba, constantine, setif,...)
France : ~1,0 million (immigration since 1900')
and Canada, US, Belgium, Netherlands
and Liban, Palestinne, Syrie (since 1870'-1880 "révolte des Mokranis" - during french colonisation) : 50-100,000
- Yacine O., Annaba, Algeria. 5 june.
Image:Kabyle-speaking-map.jpg is rubbish. It:
Please keep this piece of unsuccessful guesswork out of Wikipedia, and use the academically sourced map Image:Kabyle-map.jpg until such time as someone produces something larger-scale and at least equally well-sourced. - Mustafaa 19:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
(sorry I speak badly english)
It is not a map of Kabylie (or of the kabyle' wilaya) but a map showing areas where Kabyle is spoken
Kabyle is spoken in Algiers, Cherchell or Boumerdes, north of wilaya Setif, ect...
in Algiers, more 50% of population are kabyle (and speak kabyle and arabic dialect), and this is the same for Boumerdes, Jilel, Setif, ect.. and in Cherchell there are a big immigration of kabyle who speak kabyle (a famous example is Baaziz, a singer).
It is not a story of majority because or else we can say arabic (because it's official language) is spoken in Tizi Ouzou, Bouira and in Bejaia so even your map is rubish.
anyway, in any case your map is nonsense, because he show just the border of the wilaya of Tizi, Bouira and Bejaia but no "where Kabyle is spoken".
-source of map: you can see that for example on: aricle of the reliable newspapers L'Expresse] ( L'Expresse)
Mustafaa, tu parles français? (do you speak french?)
I've put together a new, much more detailed map based on Basset 1936 (see Image:Kabyle.gif for full bibliographic details.) Input welcomed... - Mustafaa 11:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Please, Mustafaa do you speak french?
Oui, malgre que je ne l'utilise pas beaucoup. Pourquoi? - Mustafaa 14:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
La nouvelle carte que j'y ai placé est fondée sur la carte très détaillé d'André Basset, Atlas Linguistique des Parlers Berbères: Algérie - Territoires du Nord, Université d'Alger, Institut des Etudes Orientales 1936. - Mustafaa 15:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone more familiar than I with Kabyle possibly add more examples, notably of: nouns that do not follow the general gender prefixes/suffixes, as well as the verb tenses? If there could also be a pronunciation guide added for the sample words, that would be very nice. One more thing to note, Chenoua language makes several references to Kabyle, notably on the subject of Adjectives and Numbers, it would likely benefit both articles if someone could elaborate on them. -- Dalrymple 04:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey y'all:
This article shows tons of hard work! I am impressed! KUTGW!
Unfortunately, it will probably get quick-failed :-( at WP:GAC because of a near-total lack of citations. See the FA Mayan languages for an example to follow...
Later! -- Ling.Nut 23:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Deleting dead link from Online dictionaries:
Thnidu ( talk) 18:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
This article doesn't make it clear whether the stops are allophones of the fricatives or have phonemic status. Mo-Al ( talk) 17:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
current version states "Tifinagh alphabet disappeared in the 7th century, when Latin became the official and administrative language in North Africa (as in rest of ex-Roman empire)."
This statement cannot be accurate, as Latin became the official and administrative language with the Roman conquest in the 2nd century BC, remaining until the Vandal conquest in the fifth century AD. The Byzantines returned briefly in the 7th century but Greek was their official language, and they were followed in the late 7th century by the Arabs, who would have considered Latin the language of their arch enemy and never used it as an official language.
However, I have not yet changed it because I don't whether "..disappeared in the 2nd century BC, when Latin became the official.." or "..disappeared in the 7th century, when (Greek OR Arabic) became the official.." would be more faithful to facts.
I was not able to successfully research this. someone else will need to take up that torch..
Notions succinctes de grammaire kabyle (1881)
https://archive.org/details/NotionsSuccinctesDeGrammaireKabyle
Cours de langue kabyle (1887)
https://archive.org/details/CoursDeLangueKabyle
dictionnaire kabyle (1901)
https://archive.org/details/DictionnaireKabyle
Rajmaan ( talk) 07:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
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The estimate of "three million" is from the 2003 International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. This encyclopedia used Ethnologue as its source and described Ethnologue as "a comprehensive listing of the world's languages, with genetic classification" ( source). It seems that no more recent edition of this encyclopedia exists. That's why I suggest we only use Ethnologue's latest estimate (guesstimate?) as 1/ it is way more recent 2/ it is a reliable source 3/ the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics was based on Ethnologue anyway.
What do you think @ M.Bitton? a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 17:10, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
as one of its sourceshe's cited in the bibliography section as one, among many sources that were used used. What source does Ethnologue cite to back its claims? M.Bitton ( talk) 23:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
References
@ M.Bitton replacing the citation to Language Diversity Endangered was just discussed on the Berber languages page, and our third opinion @ Kwamikagami agreed that "2015" is not a representative date for that source. I switched it to the Leclerc citation because it uses 3 million as the number of Kabyle speakers, and it seemed like everyone agreed to accept it as a reliable source for the purposes of the article. Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 16:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
2,537,000 in Algeria (1995). Estimates by some sources are up to 6,000,000 in Algeria (1998). 49,000 in Belgium. Population total all countries: 3,123,000.(source: https://www.ethnologue.com/15/show_language/kab/ )
Pereltsvaig presumably suffers from the same kinds of problems as Ethn. They're not a source we use much, so I think a broader discussion would be warranted before we start.
Mettouchi's numbers are consistent with them using Leclerc; no indication that they're an independent source. They do however estimate 2M diaspora, whereas Ethn. estimates 1M. So I left those sources for the diaspora population but not the Algerian. Unless someone finds a better source, I suspect this is probably the best we can do. I made a note in the lead as to what the population would be today if (a) Leclerc's percentage is for speakers and not just ethnicity (he does give a separate figure for Arabicized Berbers, so that's quite possible) and (b) that percentage has remained steady over the past two decades. The primary problem is that the Algerian census is not allowed to ask about language, ethnicity or religion, so it will be difficult to get around that. — kwami ( talk) 22:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
I have always given rough estimates, to give an idea, but never intended to work out the exact number of speakers. 3 million in Kabylie is probably lower range estimate. There is no census on Amazigh speakers in Algeria as you know, and from my personal experience there, Kabyle is a growing, expanding language, it has prestige among Amazigh speakers and is adopted by speakers of nearby regions. I would not be able to give a reliable estimate though.(poke @ Blueshiftofdeath) So I see no reason to highlight her guesstimate specifically in the infobox. She only dropped a number in passing in an article about morphology. (it's fine to keep it in the rest of the article though).
Dear Antoine, Thank you for this information on the speaker population of Kabyle (Amazigh) [kab] in Algeria. Interestingly enough, I received the same message from another prominent user of the Ethnologue just a few days ago. It was decided to correct this number to one representing 9.4% of the population. Best wishes, Chuck Fennig Managing Editor, Ethnologue( source) I assume you're this other "prominent user of the Ethnologue" @ Kwamikagami? Thanks for pointing the discrepancy @ M.Bitton (and congrats for your first contribution to Ethnologue 😉)
Bonjour; Aucune source fiable, Notre pays n'effectue pas ce genre de recensement. Cordialement
Yes. Leclerc had groups that just had Tamazight as their language, but it turned out to be dubious at best, erroneous at worst.a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 09:30, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the
Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script. For more information, see: MOS:FOREIGN. |
To-do list for Kabyle language:
|
Algeria
Kabylie : 4.5 million
Algiers : 50-70% so ~ 1 million
others : ~ 500,000 (annaba, constantine, setif,...)
France : ~1,0 million (immigration since 1900')
and Canada, US, Belgium, Netherlands
and Liban, Palestinne, Syrie (since 1870'-1880 "révolte des Mokranis" - during french colonisation) : 50-100,000
- Yacine O., Annaba, Algeria. 5 june.
Image:Kabyle-speaking-map.jpg is rubbish. It:
Please keep this piece of unsuccessful guesswork out of Wikipedia, and use the academically sourced map Image:Kabyle-map.jpg until such time as someone produces something larger-scale and at least equally well-sourced. - Mustafaa 19:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
(sorry I speak badly english)
It is not a map of Kabylie (or of the kabyle' wilaya) but a map showing areas where Kabyle is spoken
Kabyle is spoken in Algiers, Cherchell or Boumerdes, north of wilaya Setif, ect...
in Algiers, more 50% of population are kabyle (and speak kabyle and arabic dialect), and this is the same for Boumerdes, Jilel, Setif, ect.. and in Cherchell there are a big immigration of kabyle who speak kabyle (a famous example is Baaziz, a singer).
It is not a story of majority because or else we can say arabic (because it's official language) is spoken in Tizi Ouzou, Bouira and in Bejaia so even your map is rubish.
anyway, in any case your map is nonsense, because he show just the border of the wilaya of Tizi, Bouira and Bejaia but no "where Kabyle is spoken".
-source of map: you can see that for example on: aricle of the reliable newspapers L'Expresse] ( L'Expresse)
Mustafaa, tu parles français? (do you speak french?)
I've put together a new, much more detailed map based on Basset 1936 (see Image:Kabyle.gif for full bibliographic details.) Input welcomed... - Mustafaa 11:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Please, Mustafaa do you speak french?
Oui, malgre que je ne l'utilise pas beaucoup. Pourquoi? - Mustafaa 14:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
La nouvelle carte que j'y ai placé est fondée sur la carte très détaillé d'André Basset, Atlas Linguistique des Parlers Berbères: Algérie - Territoires du Nord, Université d'Alger, Institut des Etudes Orientales 1936. - Mustafaa 15:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone more familiar than I with Kabyle possibly add more examples, notably of: nouns that do not follow the general gender prefixes/suffixes, as well as the verb tenses? If there could also be a pronunciation guide added for the sample words, that would be very nice. One more thing to note, Chenoua language makes several references to Kabyle, notably on the subject of Adjectives and Numbers, it would likely benefit both articles if someone could elaborate on them. -- Dalrymple 04:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey y'all:
This article shows tons of hard work! I am impressed! KUTGW!
Unfortunately, it will probably get quick-failed :-( at WP:GAC because of a near-total lack of citations. See the FA Mayan languages for an example to follow...
Later! -- Ling.Nut 23:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Deleting dead link from Online dictionaries:
Thnidu ( talk) 18:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
This article doesn't make it clear whether the stops are allophones of the fricatives or have phonemic status. Mo-Al ( talk) 17:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
current version states "Tifinagh alphabet disappeared in the 7th century, when Latin became the official and administrative language in North Africa (as in rest of ex-Roman empire)."
This statement cannot be accurate, as Latin became the official and administrative language with the Roman conquest in the 2nd century BC, remaining until the Vandal conquest in the fifth century AD. The Byzantines returned briefly in the 7th century but Greek was their official language, and they were followed in the late 7th century by the Arabs, who would have considered Latin the language of their arch enemy and never used it as an official language.
However, I have not yet changed it because I don't whether "..disappeared in the 2nd century BC, when Latin became the official.." or "..disappeared in the 7th century, when (Greek OR Arabic) became the official.." would be more faithful to facts.
I was not able to successfully research this. someone else will need to take up that torch..
Notions succinctes de grammaire kabyle (1881)
https://archive.org/details/NotionsSuccinctesDeGrammaireKabyle
Cours de langue kabyle (1887)
https://archive.org/details/CoursDeLangueKabyle
dictionnaire kabyle (1901)
https://archive.org/details/DictionnaireKabyle
Rajmaan ( talk) 07:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
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The estimate of "three million" is from the 2003 International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. This encyclopedia used Ethnologue as its source and described Ethnologue as "a comprehensive listing of the world's languages, with genetic classification" ( source). It seems that no more recent edition of this encyclopedia exists. That's why I suggest we only use Ethnologue's latest estimate (guesstimate?) as 1/ it is way more recent 2/ it is a reliable source 3/ the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics was based on Ethnologue anyway.
What do you think @ M.Bitton? a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 17:10, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
as one of its sourceshe's cited in the bibliography section as one, among many sources that were used used. What source does Ethnologue cite to back its claims? M.Bitton ( talk) 23:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
References
@ M.Bitton replacing the citation to Language Diversity Endangered was just discussed on the Berber languages page, and our third opinion @ Kwamikagami agreed that "2015" is not a representative date for that source. I switched it to the Leclerc citation because it uses 3 million as the number of Kabyle speakers, and it seemed like everyone agreed to accept it as a reliable source for the purposes of the article. Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 16:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
2,537,000 in Algeria (1995). Estimates by some sources are up to 6,000,000 in Algeria (1998). 49,000 in Belgium. Population total all countries: 3,123,000.(source: https://www.ethnologue.com/15/show_language/kab/ )
Pereltsvaig presumably suffers from the same kinds of problems as Ethn. They're not a source we use much, so I think a broader discussion would be warranted before we start.
Mettouchi's numbers are consistent with them using Leclerc; no indication that they're an independent source. They do however estimate 2M diaspora, whereas Ethn. estimates 1M. So I left those sources for the diaspora population but not the Algerian. Unless someone finds a better source, I suspect this is probably the best we can do. I made a note in the lead as to what the population would be today if (a) Leclerc's percentage is for speakers and not just ethnicity (he does give a separate figure for Arabicized Berbers, so that's quite possible) and (b) that percentage has remained steady over the past two decades. The primary problem is that the Algerian census is not allowed to ask about language, ethnicity or religion, so it will be difficult to get around that. — kwami ( talk) 22:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
I have always given rough estimates, to give an idea, but never intended to work out the exact number of speakers. 3 million in Kabylie is probably lower range estimate. There is no census on Amazigh speakers in Algeria as you know, and from my personal experience there, Kabyle is a growing, expanding language, it has prestige among Amazigh speakers and is adopted by speakers of nearby regions. I would not be able to give a reliable estimate though.(poke @ Blueshiftofdeath) So I see no reason to highlight her guesstimate specifically in the infobox. She only dropped a number in passing in an article about morphology. (it's fine to keep it in the rest of the article though).
Dear Antoine, Thank you for this information on the speaker population of Kabyle (Amazigh) [kab] in Algeria. Interestingly enough, I received the same message from another prominent user of the Ethnologue just a few days ago. It was decided to correct this number to one representing 9.4% of the population. Best wishes, Chuck Fennig Managing Editor, Ethnologue( source) I assume you're this other "prominent user of the Ethnologue" @ Kwamikagami? Thanks for pointing the discrepancy @ M.Bitton (and congrats for your first contribution to Ethnologue 😉)
Bonjour; Aucune source fiable, Notre pays n'effectue pas ce genre de recensement. Cordialement
Yes. Leclerc had groups that just had Tamazight as their language, but it turned out to be dubious at best, erroneous at worst.a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 09:30, 6 March 2023 (UTC)