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I have removed the names of the owners/directors at the time of the transfer on the following grounds
The two people named have no independent notability. Under WP:BLP "Privacy of personal information" / "People who are relatively unknown" / "Privacy of names" sections we lean strongly against including this kind of information - omitting it does not detract from the article. When a subject has specifically requested their name be removed, without a compelling reason to keep the name in the article we should remove it. Exxolon ( talk) 20:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
I wish I was invited here to participate. I looked everywhere, but I am feeling pretty dumb about not finding the talk page. I guess I won't make administrator anytime soon... At any rate, the statment "(it's me in case I have confused you in any way)", as I wrote to Dravecky, clearly was missed. It is me and I can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I can produce any doc needed. I prefer to have it examined by someone who isn't going to post my verification on wiki though. suggestions?? I again request my name be removed. Thank you. 64.0.147.226 ( talk) 23:27, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Me again, thought I was logged in. Please don't take what you are about to read with any particular tone. It is merely questions and statements about what we have going on here.
What I don't understand is the idea that I would protest someone with a name similar to mine. Not only did I say 'My Name', I said it was me. How that was misconstrued confuses me. And I still really don't understand why a director, even an owner, has ANY bearing on anything, except the person themselves, unless hisotrical or notable. That is still a leap for me.
Dravecky, you made this statement - "Any media coverage of a radio station will focus on the owner, not the shell, and suppressing the owner's name makes the article harder to further verify or expand." Shouldn't this statement be backed up? This is so far from the truth. I live in the LA (#2) market and when I hear KFI (CearChannel) in the news, you know who I never hear, who owns ClearChannel. Why? Becuase unless the owner is directly related to the news item, it is completely irrelevant. And WHY would it make it harder to verify? There just seems to be some logic I am missing here.
The idea that YOU alone decide what is valid, relevant, or necessary for inclusion seems not the purpose of wikipedia. DMOZ became largely irrelevant because of the same mindset. I don't think wikipedia should be run that way. As a former DJ, Dravecky, I would think that your experience would tell you to nevermind the small stuff in radio. Out of the ~13-17000 stations out there, the majority are probably stations that never reach more than 50k population, and probably are less than 1-5K watts (depending on where on the dial and what band), and thus are nearly irrelelvant, unknown and but a spec. Baring some outstanding achievement or relevant history behind a person and the station, I honestly cannot fathom why you would go to the trouble to document wikipedia with such trivial stuff. And yet, it affects me because I am in the document, and outside of 6 people, probabaly next to no one will visit this page. UNTIL! a prospective employer googles me, which they do. And thanks to this document, my name (YES ME!) is now all over the web due to sites that scrape and copy wikipedia.
This particular station isn't even in the top 100 markets (probably not top 300), why not concentrate on those since many more peoples lives could potentialy be enriched, rather than watch the 'changing hands' nonsense that some company RELATED to the industry publishes as a (not very useful) service for SALES people in the industry.
Again, I am not trying to take any tone here, just questioning WHY this is such a hard and fast decision. Just because you did something before is never reason enough to continue it. And taking the idea that works in high profile situations (owners names of large companies) and translate that to small companies is not generally good practice journalistically or in general either in my opinion. Notable is not a position, or title in all cases. Elected official, monarch, sure. It is also a public figure. But, director of a small private company that was disclosed in federal docs (previously non indexed) and in industry pages might be good detective work, but certainly neither notable nor important.
I really hope that you take something I said as constructive. Wikipedia doesn't need to document all of the minutia of the existing world, just because it can, someone else did it, or whatever reason.
Again, I see no reason for ME to be attached to this doc. It's me, my history, my reputation, my life documented in wikipedia. Please remove it. Thank you. And on behalf of all non notable humans whose real life representation you've documented without regard to their privacy, I request you remove their names where the document is not affected. Please :). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrsuperk ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
@Valfontis - thank you for the clarification, I was reviewing the page.
@Dravecky, I think you missed the point. No PERSONAL names are ever mentioned when mentioning company names unless they are directly relevant. AND in most cases, I believe company names are ONLY involved when directly relevant OR when clarifying for disclosure ('this station and KFI are owned/managed by ClearChannel'). And in the wiki KFI record, I still don't see the directors, president, or document signer names listed for clear channel, someone I would believe is more notable than I.
@Peteforsyth - Thank you for your input. I agree that your point makes sense in general, media can influence lives, though, we can disagree as to the notability of this station - (about to lose its license soon probably for being off-air too long in a community that may not exist for much longer either), but let's look at a couple of things in regards to MY notability, which I believe is the issue here. If none of you have experience in the community, WHAT allows you to determine relevancy in any particular case and thus generalize that it is equal in ALL cases. My company owned the station for a bit less than a year, and visited the community for exactly 6 days during that period of time. Is that relevant? If the signature on the FCC docs was my secretary, instead of mine, would that be relevant? The name, by the way, is not necessarily the owner, it is the title and name of the signor of the FCC document. In this case, mine.
@Everybody - Let's talk consistency. I looked at nearly a dozen stations in the neighboring cities, same coverage area (much more well known stations) and ALSO a few in Eugene (a larger city in Oregon). Of those that are listed in wiki, (not all are) NONE of them mention a single personal name (a couple mentioned DJs or show hosts from nationally syndicted shows - public figures), yet company names are mentioned, and in a few cases even 'changing hands' info is there with no personal names. I hate to even mention it, because I expect now Dravecky will go and create the same problem he did with the previous owner in this KORC record, and go dig up names to try to support his case. SO I suspect, that without regard to any consideration of people, relevance, or journalism(? not nec what wiki does) Dravecky( Or someone) just plain copied and pasted a partial record (again without regard to people or consistency) and now is defending a case purely to not be wrong.
I am NOT trying to be a jerk here. The reality is that while everyone has good points, the evidence of WHY just doesn't add up. Originally, I was the only one listed in this record, as an officer of a company (where the company ownership wasn't a personal name - as was the case with the couple we sold it to). Later the people they sold it to probably added their own names as a vanity? item?? Dravecky mentioned his reason was consistency and that he got it from the records. But it wasn't until I mentioned to Dravecky that the owner of Jarvis Communications, who owned it for 10 years(!) before me, wasn't mentioned, that he looked it up and added it. Yet it was in the same referenced records all along. Seems hypocritical, sloppy and inconsistent, as well as covering ones backside.
I think I have made valid points for removal (of this trivial info to you, but major to me) - privacy of living person; personal request to have it removed; willing to verify my identity as the subject in question; removing does NOT detract from factual record; adding it does not enhance record; consistency is NOT there in relevant area of wiki topic, region, station size; not notable person in any sense.
So My request to the community is to remove my name from the record. - Please. Yes I can appeal and go to the lengths. But as a community, I hope that my evidence is persuasive enough to you. Thanks. -Kevin (by the way, my username was purely lack of creativity on my part after multiple failed attempts to find a unique username in wiki - not that I am 'super' in anyway); Mrsuperk ( talk) 18:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi Pete, Thank you. And any others, I encourage the same. As for the argument about media in general, again, I think it is a good argument in some contexts. And I'd love to have that conversation, - though once we resolve the point at hand - the reference to me being removed. But the relevant point in regards to the reference to me, is that simply knowing who owned, or even was associated with a station, IN MOST CASES, is much more phone-bookish than either interesting, useful, or 'historically important'. As for my name - I still find the reference to me NOT notable, relevant, or even useful for all the reasons given above. Can we go ahead and remove the name? The name was already removed once, until they thought I wasn't really the person. Then they said, it be revisited if I confirmed it. Thanks. K- Mrsuperk ( talk) 02:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
@Pete, thank you for recognizing my intent is in good faith and that, yes, I obviously am having some confusion with the process.
@Dravecky, you've raised a good point in this instance. But let me address it further. What is missing here is closeness to the subject - or more to the point direct knowledge. This is why I think, in terms of local stations, it may be best if the local community was the sponsor(?) of the page (while of course maintaining WP standards) rather than an outsider - no offense meant. But, even then, the inclusion of names needs to be overwhelmingly 'value adding' in my opinion. But, in the case of the articles you cited above, Larry (and the newest owner), the subject of the articles, was an active member of the community seeking publicity for the station. I believe in those cases, your point is more valid. My company held the ownership in company form and requested no press - for a reason - we didn't want it. Now, there may be somewhere in archives a mention, (I honestly don't know of any) but even according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(media)#Primary_criterion (sorry couldn't make it link properly) that doesn't nec make it notable or wiki worthy : A media outlet is presumed notable if it has been the subject of coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability. . Yes I know this is regarding the station/outlet, but I believe it also carries to some degree to the contents of the article. Even *IF* I were mentioned in an article, it doesn't by default make it notable, or wiki worthy. I really think we need to take an honest look at the word notable. It is definitely NOT EQUAL to factual. Notable in my opinion means that the mention of it enhances the article/subject or makes it striking - 'It's worth noting/mentioning that...' or 'Did you know?'. Again, I could find NO other stations in the station area that had personal names of owners and even the previous owner of this station wasn't in the record until I mentioned it as a comparison. Again, I don't really care that the station is a wiki subject, but the inclusion of personal names (at all) really needs to be examined seriously. So I guess my question is - I've requested my name to be removed - so, even *if* you hunted down a record with my name in it, would that really add so much value as to make my point & request less important or less valid?? Please consider that. Pete mentioned it is apparently common to give the overview and let the source docs be used for accessing more details. That seems true to me in terms of the encyclopedic nature I am more familiar with (yes the old books) :). Thanks. Mrsuperk ( talk) 17:16, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you Dravecky. In terms of 'legal fiction' I think what you are doing to the article is exactly that in some cases and it is suspect and not accurate. For education, a corporation is regarded legally as an individual like you and any other person. A couple of the changes you have made to the article have now become legal fiction. The current owner of the station is a corporation, not individuals. The person in the articles is acting as spokesperson for the corporation. In human terms, sometimes people overlook the legal entity as ego, short-cut, or relationships. But it doesn't change the legal status. If KORC, Inc is sold, it still is the registered owner of KORC, the owner of the station doesn't actually change. This is how corporations work. The FCC doesn't allow separate ownership for station and license, either, as you have tried to make it appear in your effort to twist the record. A few of your edits need to be corrected. 64.0.147.226 ( talk) 16:41, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from KWDP appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 11 May 2009 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have removed the names of the owners/directors at the time of the transfer on the following grounds
The two people named have no independent notability. Under WP:BLP "Privacy of personal information" / "People who are relatively unknown" / "Privacy of names" sections we lean strongly against including this kind of information - omitting it does not detract from the article. When a subject has specifically requested their name be removed, without a compelling reason to keep the name in the article we should remove it. Exxolon ( talk) 20:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
I wish I was invited here to participate. I looked everywhere, but I am feeling pretty dumb about not finding the talk page. I guess I won't make administrator anytime soon... At any rate, the statment "(it's me in case I have confused you in any way)", as I wrote to Dravecky, clearly was missed. It is me and I can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I can produce any doc needed. I prefer to have it examined by someone who isn't going to post my verification on wiki though. suggestions?? I again request my name be removed. Thank you. 64.0.147.226 ( talk) 23:27, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Me again, thought I was logged in. Please don't take what you are about to read with any particular tone. It is merely questions and statements about what we have going on here.
What I don't understand is the idea that I would protest someone with a name similar to mine. Not only did I say 'My Name', I said it was me. How that was misconstrued confuses me. And I still really don't understand why a director, even an owner, has ANY bearing on anything, except the person themselves, unless hisotrical or notable. That is still a leap for me.
Dravecky, you made this statement - "Any media coverage of a radio station will focus on the owner, not the shell, and suppressing the owner's name makes the article harder to further verify or expand." Shouldn't this statement be backed up? This is so far from the truth. I live in the LA (#2) market and when I hear KFI (CearChannel) in the news, you know who I never hear, who owns ClearChannel. Why? Becuase unless the owner is directly related to the news item, it is completely irrelevant. And WHY would it make it harder to verify? There just seems to be some logic I am missing here.
The idea that YOU alone decide what is valid, relevant, or necessary for inclusion seems not the purpose of wikipedia. DMOZ became largely irrelevant because of the same mindset. I don't think wikipedia should be run that way. As a former DJ, Dravecky, I would think that your experience would tell you to nevermind the small stuff in radio. Out of the ~13-17000 stations out there, the majority are probably stations that never reach more than 50k population, and probably are less than 1-5K watts (depending on where on the dial and what band), and thus are nearly irrelelvant, unknown and but a spec. Baring some outstanding achievement or relevant history behind a person and the station, I honestly cannot fathom why you would go to the trouble to document wikipedia with such trivial stuff. And yet, it affects me because I am in the document, and outside of 6 people, probabaly next to no one will visit this page. UNTIL! a prospective employer googles me, which they do. And thanks to this document, my name (YES ME!) is now all over the web due to sites that scrape and copy wikipedia.
This particular station isn't even in the top 100 markets (probably not top 300), why not concentrate on those since many more peoples lives could potentialy be enriched, rather than watch the 'changing hands' nonsense that some company RELATED to the industry publishes as a (not very useful) service for SALES people in the industry.
Again, I am not trying to take any tone here, just questioning WHY this is such a hard and fast decision. Just because you did something before is never reason enough to continue it. And taking the idea that works in high profile situations (owners names of large companies) and translate that to small companies is not generally good practice journalistically or in general either in my opinion. Notable is not a position, or title in all cases. Elected official, monarch, sure. It is also a public figure. But, director of a small private company that was disclosed in federal docs (previously non indexed) and in industry pages might be good detective work, but certainly neither notable nor important.
I really hope that you take something I said as constructive. Wikipedia doesn't need to document all of the minutia of the existing world, just because it can, someone else did it, or whatever reason.
Again, I see no reason for ME to be attached to this doc. It's me, my history, my reputation, my life documented in wikipedia. Please remove it. Thank you. And on behalf of all non notable humans whose real life representation you've documented without regard to their privacy, I request you remove their names where the document is not affected. Please :). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrsuperk ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
@Valfontis - thank you for the clarification, I was reviewing the page.
@Dravecky, I think you missed the point. No PERSONAL names are ever mentioned when mentioning company names unless they are directly relevant. AND in most cases, I believe company names are ONLY involved when directly relevant OR when clarifying for disclosure ('this station and KFI are owned/managed by ClearChannel'). And in the wiki KFI record, I still don't see the directors, president, or document signer names listed for clear channel, someone I would believe is more notable than I.
@Peteforsyth - Thank you for your input. I agree that your point makes sense in general, media can influence lives, though, we can disagree as to the notability of this station - (about to lose its license soon probably for being off-air too long in a community that may not exist for much longer either), but let's look at a couple of things in regards to MY notability, which I believe is the issue here. If none of you have experience in the community, WHAT allows you to determine relevancy in any particular case and thus generalize that it is equal in ALL cases. My company owned the station for a bit less than a year, and visited the community for exactly 6 days during that period of time. Is that relevant? If the signature on the FCC docs was my secretary, instead of mine, would that be relevant? The name, by the way, is not necessarily the owner, it is the title and name of the signor of the FCC document. In this case, mine.
@Everybody - Let's talk consistency. I looked at nearly a dozen stations in the neighboring cities, same coverage area (much more well known stations) and ALSO a few in Eugene (a larger city in Oregon). Of those that are listed in wiki, (not all are) NONE of them mention a single personal name (a couple mentioned DJs or show hosts from nationally syndicted shows - public figures), yet company names are mentioned, and in a few cases even 'changing hands' info is there with no personal names. I hate to even mention it, because I expect now Dravecky will go and create the same problem he did with the previous owner in this KORC record, and go dig up names to try to support his case. SO I suspect, that without regard to any consideration of people, relevance, or journalism(? not nec what wiki does) Dravecky( Or someone) just plain copied and pasted a partial record (again without regard to people or consistency) and now is defending a case purely to not be wrong.
I am NOT trying to be a jerk here. The reality is that while everyone has good points, the evidence of WHY just doesn't add up. Originally, I was the only one listed in this record, as an officer of a company (where the company ownership wasn't a personal name - as was the case with the couple we sold it to). Later the people they sold it to probably added their own names as a vanity? item?? Dravecky mentioned his reason was consistency and that he got it from the records. But it wasn't until I mentioned to Dravecky that the owner of Jarvis Communications, who owned it for 10 years(!) before me, wasn't mentioned, that he looked it up and added it. Yet it was in the same referenced records all along. Seems hypocritical, sloppy and inconsistent, as well as covering ones backside.
I think I have made valid points for removal (of this trivial info to you, but major to me) - privacy of living person; personal request to have it removed; willing to verify my identity as the subject in question; removing does NOT detract from factual record; adding it does not enhance record; consistency is NOT there in relevant area of wiki topic, region, station size; not notable person in any sense.
So My request to the community is to remove my name from the record. - Please. Yes I can appeal and go to the lengths. But as a community, I hope that my evidence is persuasive enough to you. Thanks. -Kevin (by the way, my username was purely lack of creativity on my part after multiple failed attempts to find a unique username in wiki - not that I am 'super' in anyway); Mrsuperk ( talk) 18:19, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi Pete, Thank you. And any others, I encourage the same. As for the argument about media in general, again, I think it is a good argument in some contexts. And I'd love to have that conversation, - though once we resolve the point at hand - the reference to me being removed. But the relevant point in regards to the reference to me, is that simply knowing who owned, or even was associated with a station, IN MOST CASES, is much more phone-bookish than either interesting, useful, or 'historically important'. As for my name - I still find the reference to me NOT notable, relevant, or even useful for all the reasons given above. Can we go ahead and remove the name? The name was already removed once, until they thought I wasn't really the person. Then they said, it be revisited if I confirmed it. Thanks. K- Mrsuperk ( talk) 02:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
@Pete, thank you for recognizing my intent is in good faith and that, yes, I obviously am having some confusion with the process.
@Dravecky, you've raised a good point in this instance. But let me address it further. What is missing here is closeness to the subject - or more to the point direct knowledge. This is why I think, in terms of local stations, it may be best if the local community was the sponsor(?) of the page (while of course maintaining WP standards) rather than an outsider - no offense meant. But, even then, the inclusion of names needs to be overwhelmingly 'value adding' in my opinion. But, in the case of the articles you cited above, Larry (and the newest owner), the subject of the articles, was an active member of the community seeking publicity for the station. I believe in those cases, your point is more valid. My company held the ownership in company form and requested no press - for a reason - we didn't want it. Now, there may be somewhere in archives a mention, (I honestly don't know of any) but even according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(media)#Primary_criterion (sorry couldn't make it link properly) that doesn't nec make it notable or wiki worthy : A media outlet is presumed notable if it has been the subject of coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability. . Yes I know this is regarding the station/outlet, but I believe it also carries to some degree to the contents of the article. Even *IF* I were mentioned in an article, it doesn't by default make it notable, or wiki worthy. I really think we need to take an honest look at the word notable. It is definitely NOT EQUAL to factual. Notable in my opinion means that the mention of it enhances the article/subject or makes it striking - 'It's worth noting/mentioning that...' or 'Did you know?'. Again, I could find NO other stations in the station area that had personal names of owners and even the previous owner of this station wasn't in the record until I mentioned it as a comparison. Again, I don't really care that the station is a wiki subject, but the inclusion of personal names (at all) really needs to be examined seriously. So I guess my question is - I've requested my name to be removed - so, even *if* you hunted down a record with my name in it, would that really add so much value as to make my point & request less important or less valid?? Please consider that. Pete mentioned it is apparently common to give the overview and let the source docs be used for accessing more details. That seems true to me in terms of the encyclopedic nature I am more familiar with (yes the old books) :). Thanks. Mrsuperk ( talk) 17:16, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you Dravecky. In terms of 'legal fiction' I think what you are doing to the article is exactly that in some cases and it is suspect and not accurate. For education, a corporation is regarded legally as an individual like you and any other person. A couple of the changes you have made to the article have now become legal fiction. The current owner of the station is a corporation, not individuals. The person in the articles is acting as spokesperson for the corporation. In human terms, sometimes people overlook the legal entity as ego, short-cut, or relationships. But it doesn't change the legal status. If KORC, Inc is sold, it still is the registered owner of KORC, the owner of the station doesn't actually change. This is how corporations work. The FCC doesn't allow separate ownership for station and license, either, as you have tried to make it appear in your effort to twist the record. A few of your edits need to be corrected. 64.0.147.226 ( talk) 16:41, 30 March 2011 (UTC)