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This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
hi. i moved some information about the city of Comox to Comox, British Columbia as this article should be about the Comox people (who still exist in the present & still speak the Comox language). dont worry, i will be writing something soon (about their language). peace — ishwar (SPEAK) 05:28, 2005 May 25 (UTC)
What should I do about the various Comox electoral districts? fed/prov older ridings simply named Comox, there's Comox-Alberni, Comox-Atlin and Comox-something else too. Normally I would venture to rewrit this as a disambig page, with the first nations language just a link; should I maybe instead (rather than relink everything sent here) the line about Comox, BC (town) and make that a link to a new disambig page. Or could maybe what's on this page be put on a Komox page (with an accent on one of those o's I believe?)
Please see my revisions to Lillooet, which had originally directed only to the St'at'imc people/language and get back to me. I'll move on to other ridings in the meantime. Skookum1 05:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's the disambig information needed once that is decided
Comox language = will be a redirect to Komox however spelled
Comox is also part of the name of various
British Columbian provincial and
Canadian federal electoral districts:
Skookum1 05:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
This page is on the Komox Tribe, not the town of Comox. Although much of the history of the tribe interwinds with Comox, the Komox nation had a very different lifestyle. Please edit in ONLY what is relevant to the tribe. Oh, and could someone PLEASE change the article name to "Komox People"? Mayalou6999 ( talk) 01:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Comox (language) and Comox language both redirect here, and shouldn't; there should be a separate langauge page. here is one resource and here's another more minor one and this is just a google search for "Comox language". Skookum1 ( talk) 14:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
As "Comox/Komox" is not the indigenous name for this people, or their language, I see no reason to depart from the most common English form, which is Comox. "K'omoks" and "Komox" "K'omoks", with or without accent marks, is a Kwak'wala word - /q'ómoxws/ - so rendering the name in that language would be like titling the Nooksack (tribe) article with the Halkomelem name for the Nooksack, instead of their own. This is an English encyclopedia, not a Kwak'wala one.... Skookum1 ( talk) 14:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The recent moves of this article need to cease. If a move is desired it should be done thought WP:RM as it would not be uncontroversial. I take this to mean it should be located at K’omoks until a requested move chooses otherwise.-- Labattblueboy ( talk) 06:34, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I've moved it back to the 19:56, 15 May 2013 Kmoksy version before the move war began. I don't want to have to move protect this article since it's only Skookum1 and Kwamikagami in disagreement. Please, involve the community in deciding and only move it when consensus has been achieved here. Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 09:40, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Note these:
−
−
−
−
−
I removed the db template he put on K'omoks, with "remove db notice; this title is part of existing conventions to do with BC First Nations peoples and is part of BC English now and the preferred name per WP:ETHNICGROUP" as the reason. He may have not been an admin but now is violating procedure any way he can. This is what this about; I got around him by using the apostrophe in Nisga'a which was not on the original there to restore the native-preferred title (and which seems to have been used to get around another redirect-block. Skookum1 ( talk) 10:06, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
See [ K'omoks First Nation; even though their URL is grandfathered from when they were the Comox Indian Band, that term is no longer in use and not just by them. What complicates any search for "Comox people" is that the two terms come up with many references to the town or the air force base that have "people" in the text. NCLANG has only last night been reformed to include text from WP:ETHNICGROUP; self-identification is regularly dissed by Kwami as "we don't care what the people preferred to be called" as if he's speaking for all of Wikipedia. Skookum1 ( talk) 10:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Anna, when you moved this back to where Kwami wants it to be, you cited "G6: Housekeeping and routine (non-controversial) cleanup: make way for move" in deleting Comox people to prepare to move the special-apostrophe K'omoks title back to it. Since when is such a move 'non-controversial" and "routine"? Clearly this whole matter is controversial, and the controversy is across a very large group of articles similarly moved by him. Skookum1 ( talk) 10:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
The "last stable version" still has a problem; this is not about one people; it's about at least four (if you read the K'omoks' own website, it's actually more like 7 or 8). Comox peoples should be the title; there is no native endonym for both main groups together; so "Comox" will have to do; but the singular form is incorrect, though it has been "stable". This kind of case is also why in the days of t he "old consensus" that it was felt that disambiguation by such terms could be necessarily inadequate and misleading, and because of the PRIMARYTOPIC of "Comox" in Canada as meaning the town, a disambiguation of the conventional idiom for this group of people is necessary; I myself have worked on this article and also have begun researching it in detail for expansion, and it's clear that it is NOT one people who are under discussion. Skookum1 ( talk) 01:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move one. There is a clear consensus to move Comox people to K'omoks, on the basis of the evidence presented that that is the most WP:COMMONNAME of that topic. However, there is no consensus to move Comox to Comox (disambiguation). That proposal was recently considered at Talk:Comox#Requested_move and closed as "no consensus" only 7 days before this discussion opened. A failed proposal should not be resurrected so soon. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 15:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
– A double move suggested, with a redirect. 1. Moving Comox people to K'omoks: the modern literature (anything post 2005) is clear this is the common name. Post-2005 K'omoks -wikipedia produces 75 Google book hits [1], "Comox people" -wikipedia produces 45 hits [2]. Couple that with the fact that the population refer to themselves as either K'ómoks or K'ómoks First Nation [3] and I see good reason to move that article. 2. Comox, British Columbia is clear topic lead of Comox. Based on Wikipedia hits in Feb. 2316 hits for Comox, British Columbia [4], 1309 hits for CFB Comox [5], 247 hits for Comox people [6], 487 hits for Comox language [7] and 126 hits for K'ómoks First Nation [8]. 3. Since a clear 50% plus hits in the subject area for hits going to Comox, British Columbia the redirect should go there and Comox moved to Comox (disambiguation) Labattblueboy ( talk) 02:03, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Extended comments in reply to CBW and Skeezix on Canadian PRIMARYTOPICs vs global perceptions of same
|
---|
The other issue related to all this is the "shadow primary topic" spoken of by opponents of the proposal in that RM, re
Comox people. I left it off because
K'omoks was the title I had moved it to, but in discussions in the wake of that I have observed that that is only for the Island group, not the Mainland, and separate ethnographic articles for each; and I've proposed it be named
Comox peoples because more than one people (two distinct groups of several, the modern Island group now not speaking the ancient language, having adopted Kwak'wala...).....complicated stuff like all of this, but they're still not the PRIMARYTOPIC of the name as we most commonly use it in Canadian English; so that's why you will hear objections to "this is not Canadian English Wikipedia, this is English Wikipedia" to mandate that globally-known (if to us out of date and as we understand now often incorrect, some derisive) are at "global titles" vs the names for indigenous peoples which have come to be part of "us";
I am also hearing at other related RMs that Canadian PRIMARYTOPIC perceptions should not apply over global usage; in direct contradiction of CANSTYLE and CANENGLISH (I argue that lexicon is included that; some claim only punctuation and spelling); I have also been scolded for moving standalone single-name dab pages to vacant "(disambiguation)" titles without discussion in re what are PRIMARYTOPIC disputes, they claim: I took the mandate of WP:CSG#Places as an action taken after discussions on CANTALK and reading that guideline in detail, and noted Nanaimo and other places as going directly to their city-names, despite the presence of an indigenous group (formerly) known by that name, and who are the source of that name (though not as Snuneymux, which is modern coinage), and been going through, so far, only all the municipality categories and the main unincorporated settlements of BC category; the plan was to move onto Alberta and across the country; you can see where me enacting this in BC has gotten me/us/wikipedia huh? Skookum1 ( talk) Some unique places luckily had vacant moves that I could do; I won't go on about the WP:NCL "policy" which is a subtext in much of the opposition in all these "town RMs", that older native-people names are allegedly mandated by that guideline to be only about RS (and, the claim, must include "people"), meaning the full global scope of RS, which is related to the people/language PRIMARYTOPIC dispute. A "discussion" about this is on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) which relates to this underlying theme - or notion - that in a global sense the still-prevalent older names in Canada; and in several cases like this, including two other open RMs (Bella Bella and Lillooet, maybe there's a third?), the PRIMARYTOPIC dispute is subtextually but never directly as meaning the native people, rather than anything else on the disambiguation page. I'm also going to get dressed down and scolded for writing "walls of text"...("there are none so blind as those who will not see"). Yet these are all points of information re the preceding and related RMs and descriptions of the issues already at play in the previous RM and in many others. I know you guys (CBW, Skeezix) know that my points are cogent and informed; those that through TLDR would learn something if they tried. The logic in what I say, for those that bother/dare to read it, is on point and addresses the issues here and in countless other RMs open and closed. On the PRIMARYISSUE.~~ The nature of Canadian PRIMARYTOPIC vs global PRIMARYTOPIC is the central element here in all cases of these interconnected disputes. You and I know that Comox and other nominations are references to the town in Canada, 95% of the time, and that there are lots of articles with the same archaic-indigenous name situation, some of which were already done long ago ( Coquitlam, Nanaimo, Kamloops and others before the current batch of town RMs. These precedents are being ignored, our references to Canadian standards and Wikipedia guidelines being dismissed or disputed, and needless energy spent on what, if not just our own guidelines but all wikipedia guidelines really were at play, instead of PRIMARYTOPIC disputes with nationals of the country the places are in as to what normal, common usage should be in Wikipedia. Apparently not ours. Skookum1 ( talk) To us, Comox is an open-and-shut case like many others out there, old and new; to them such moves are being treated as the enemy, with PRIMARYTOPIC being code for the disputes on correct names for native group/ethnography articles. About that I won't go on, but it was necessary to clarify the context and underlying meaning of the PRIMARYTOPIC disputes on what we know are common usage; other-RM issues re the native names (and their languages) are also at play. Once these are all moved appropriately and correctly, we really need to salt them or enshrine them in a subpage of CANSTYLE for lexicon re toponyms, indigenous terminology, and more. Skookum1 ( talk) I will be condemned by others for speaking at length; others for what I am saying, indicating that my opponents do read the things I say, but they use the necessary length (complex issues and intertwined guidelines cannot be discussed in briefer terms suitable for pointillistic, mono-topical/mono-guideline driven points; nor can cases like this be solved without including all three related topics; four if you want to throw in the base, which due to military populations may be the most well-known use. |
The K'omoks culture resource at this webpage. -- Kmoksy ( talk) 22:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kʼómoks/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Needs culture/history and linguistics input; currently "shared" with Comox people article; needs separate language article (Ko'mox). Skookum1 - 6 May 06 |
Last edited at 15:10, 13 April 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 20:47, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Comox people/temp. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 5#Comox people/temp until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 ( 𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 07:16, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Comox people (temp) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 22 § Comox people (temp) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer 1234qwer 4 13:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
hi. i moved some information about the city of Comox to Comox, British Columbia as this article should be about the Comox people (who still exist in the present & still speak the Comox language). dont worry, i will be writing something soon (about their language). peace — ishwar (SPEAK) 05:28, 2005 May 25 (UTC)
What should I do about the various Comox electoral districts? fed/prov older ridings simply named Comox, there's Comox-Alberni, Comox-Atlin and Comox-something else too. Normally I would venture to rewrit this as a disambig page, with the first nations language just a link; should I maybe instead (rather than relink everything sent here) the line about Comox, BC (town) and make that a link to a new disambig page. Or could maybe what's on this page be put on a Komox page (with an accent on one of those o's I believe?)
Please see my revisions to Lillooet, which had originally directed only to the St'at'imc people/language and get back to me. I'll move on to other ridings in the meantime. Skookum1 05:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's the disambig information needed once that is decided
Comox language = will be a redirect to Komox however spelled
Comox is also part of the name of various
British Columbian provincial and
Canadian federal electoral districts:
Skookum1 05:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
This page is on the Komox Tribe, not the town of Comox. Although much of the history of the tribe interwinds with Comox, the Komox nation had a very different lifestyle. Please edit in ONLY what is relevant to the tribe. Oh, and could someone PLEASE change the article name to "Komox People"? Mayalou6999 ( talk) 01:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Comox (language) and Comox language both redirect here, and shouldn't; there should be a separate langauge page. here is one resource and here's another more minor one and this is just a google search for "Comox language". Skookum1 ( talk) 14:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
As "Comox/Komox" is not the indigenous name for this people, or their language, I see no reason to depart from the most common English form, which is Comox. "K'omoks" and "Komox" "K'omoks", with or without accent marks, is a Kwak'wala word - /q'ómoxws/ - so rendering the name in that language would be like titling the Nooksack (tribe) article with the Halkomelem name for the Nooksack, instead of their own. This is an English encyclopedia, not a Kwak'wala one.... Skookum1 ( talk) 14:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The recent moves of this article need to cease. If a move is desired it should be done thought WP:RM as it would not be uncontroversial. I take this to mean it should be located at K’omoks until a requested move chooses otherwise.-- Labattblueboy ( talk) 06:34, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I've moved it back to the 19:56, 15 May 2013 Kmoksy version before the move war began. I don't want to have to move protect this article since it's only Skookum1 and Kwamikagami in disagreement. Please, involve the community in deciding and only move it when consensus has been achieved here. Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 09:40, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Note these:
−
−
−
−
−
I removed the db template he put on K'omoks, with "remove db notice; this title is part of existing conventions to do with BC First Nations peoples and is part of BC English now and the preferred name per WP:ETHNICGROUP" as the reason. He may have not been an admin but now is violating procedure any way he can. This is what this about; I got around him by using the apostrophe in Nisga'a which was not on the original there to restore the native-preferred title (and which seems to have been used to get around another redirect-block. Skookum1 ( talk) 10:06, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
See [ K'omoks First Nation; even though their URL is grandfathered from when they were the Comox Indian Band, that term is no longer in use and not just by them. What complicates any search for "Comox people" is that the two terms come up with many references to the town or the air force base that have "people" in the text. NCLANG has only last night been reformed to include text from WP:ETHNICGROUP; self-identification is regularly dissed by Kwami as "we don't care what the people preferred to be called" as if he's speaking for all of Wikipedia. Skookum1 ( talk) 10:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Anna, when you moved this back to where Kwami wants it to be, you cited "G6: Housekeeping and routine (non-controversial) cleanup: make way for move" in deleting Comox people to prepare to move the special-apostrophe K'omoks title back to it. Since when is such a move 'non-controversial" and "routine"? Clearly this whole matter is controversial, and the controversy is across a very large group of articles similarly moved by him. Skookum1 ( talk) 10:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
The "last stable version" still has a problem; this is not about one people; it's about at least four (if you read the K'omoks' own website, it's actually more like 7 or 8). Comox peoples should be the title; there is no native endonym for both main groups together; so "Comox" will have to do; but the singular form is incorrect, though it has been "stable". This kind of case is also why in the days of t he "old consensus" that it was felt that disambiguation by such terms could be necessarily inadequate and misleading, and because of the PRIMARYTOPIC of "Comox" in Canada as meaning the town, a disambiguation of the conventional idiom for this group of people is necessary; I myself have worked on this article and also have begun researching it in detail for expansion, and it's clear that it is NOT one people who are under discussion. Skookum1 ( talk) 01:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move one. There is a clear consensus to move Comox people to K'omoks, on the basis of the evidence presented that that is the most WP:COMMONNAME of that topic. However, there is no consensus to move Comox to Comox (disambiguation). That proposal was recently considered at Talk:Comox#Requested_move and closed as "no consensus" only 7 days before this discussion opened. A failed proposal should not be resurrected so soon. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 15:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
– A double move suggested, with a redirect. 1. Moving Comox people to K'omoks: the modern literature (anything post 2005) is clear this is the common name. Post-2005 K'omoks -wikipedia produces 75 Google book hits [1], "Comox people" -wikipedia produces 45 hits [2]. Couple that with the fact that the population refer to themselves as either K'ómoks or K'ómoks First Nation [3] and I see good reason to move that article. 2. Comox, British Columbia is clear topic lead of Comox. Based on Wikipedia hits in Feb. 2316 hits for Comox, British Columbia [4], 1309 hits for CFB Comox [5], 247 hits for Comox people [6], 487 hits for Comox language [7] and 126 hits for K'ómoks First Nation [8]. 3. Since a clear 50% plus hits in the subject area for hits going to Comox, British Columbia the redirect should go there and Comox moved to Comox (disambiguation) Labattblueboy ( talk) 02:03, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Extended comments in reply to CBW and Skeezix on Canadian PRIMARYTOPICs vs global perceptions of same
|
---|
The other issue related to all this is the "shadow primary topic" spoken of by opponents of the proposal in that RM, re
Comox people. I left it off because
K'omoks was the title I had moved it to, but in discussions in the wake of that I have observed that that is only for the Island group, not the Mainland, and separate ethnographic articles for each; and I've proposed it be named
Comox peoples because more than one people (two distinct groups of several, the modern Island group now not speaking the ancient language, having adopted Kwak'wala...).....complicated stuff like all of this, but they're still not the PRIMARYTOPIC of the name as we most commonly use it in Canadian English; so that's why you will hear objections to "this is not Canadian English Wikipedia, this is English Wikipedia" to mandate that globally-known (if to us out of date and as we understand now often incorrect, some derisive) are at "global titles" vs the names for indigenous peoples which have come to be part of "us";
I am also hearing at other related RMs that Canadian PRIMARYTOPIC perceptions should not apply over global usage; in direct contradiction of CANSTYLE and CANENGLISH (I argue that lexicon is included that; some claim only punctuation and spelling); I have also been scolded for moving standalone single-name dab pages to vacant "(disambiguation)" titles without discussion in re what are PRIMARYTOPIC disputes, they claim: I took the mandate of WP:CSG#Places as an action taken after discussions on CANTALK and reading that guideline in detail, and noted Nanaimo and other places as going directly to their city-names, despite the presence of an indigenous group (formerly) known by that name, and who are the source of that name (though not as Snuneymux, which is modern coinage), and been going through, so far, only all the municipality categories and the main unincorporated settlements of BC category; the plan was to move onto Alberta and across the country; you can see where me enacting this in BC has gotten me/us/wikipedia huh? Skookum1 ( talk) Some unique places luckily had vacant moves that I could do; I won't go on about the WP:NCL "policy" which is a subtext in much of the opposition in all these "town RMs", that older native-people names are allegedly mandated by that guideline to be only about RS (and, the claim, must include "people"), meaning the full global scope of RS, which is related to the people/language PRIMARYTOPIC dispute. A "discussion" about this is on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) which relates to this underlying theme - or notion - that in a global sense the still-prevalent older names in Canada; and in several cases like this, including two other open RMs (Bella Bella and Lillooet, maybe there's a third?), the PRIMARYTOPIC dispute is subtextually but never directly as meaning the native people, rather than anything else on the disambiguation page. I'm also going to get dressed down and scolded for writing "walls of text"...("there are none so blind as those who will not see"). Yet these are all points of information re the preceding and related RMs and descriptions of the issues already at play in the previous RM and in many others. I know you guys (CBW, Skeezix) know that my points are cogent and informed; those that through TLDR would learn something if they tried. The logic in what I say, for those that bother/dare to read it, is on point and addresses the issues here and in countless other RMs open and closed. On the PRIMARYISSUE.~~ The nature of Canadian PRIMARYTOPIC vs global PRIMARYTOPIC is the central element here in all cases of these interconnected disputes. You and I know that Comox and other nominations are references to the town in Canada, 95% of the time, and that there are lots of articles with the same archaic-indigenous name situation, some of which were already done long ago ( Coquitlam, Nanaimo, Kamloops and others before the current batch of town RMs. These precedents are being ignored, our references to Canadian standards and Wikipedia guidelines being dismissed or disputed, and needless energy spent on what, if not just our own guidelines but all wikipedia guidelines really were at play, instead of PRIMARYTOPIC disputes with nationals of the country the places are in as to what normal, common usage should be in Wikipedia. Apparently not ours. Skookum1 ( talk) To us, Comox is an open-and-shut case like many others out there, old and new; to them such moves are being treated as the enemy, with PRIMARYTOPIC being code for the disputes on correct names for native group/ethnography articles. About that I won't go on, but it was necessary to clarify the context and underlying meaning of the PRIMARYTOPIC disputes on what we know are common usage; other-RM issues re the native names (and their languages) are also at play. Once these are all moved appropriately and correctly, we really need to salt them or enshrine them in a subpage of CANSTYLE for lexicon re toponyms, indigenous terminology, and more. Skookum1 ( talk) I will be condemned by others for speaking at length; others for what I am saying, indicating that my opponents do read the things I say, but they use the necessary length (complex issues and intertwined guidelines cannot be discussed in briefer terms suitable for pointillistic, mono-topical/mono-guideline driven points; nor can cases like this be solved without including all three related topics; four if you want to throw in the base, which due to military populations may be the most well-known use. |
The K'omoks culture resource at this webpage. -- Kmoksy ( talk) 22:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kʼómoks/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Needs culture/history and linguistics input; currently "shared" with Comox people article; needs separate language article (Ko'mox). Skookum1 - 6 May 06 |
Last edited at 15:10, 13 April 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 20:47, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Comox people/temp. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 5#Comox people/temp until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 ( 𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 07:16, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Comox people (temp) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 22 § Comox people (temp) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer 1234qwer 4 13:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)