This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kānekapōlei article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | A fact from Kānekapōlei appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 27 December 2012 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have commented out the family tree that appears to be incorrect. I will leave it out for the moment and ask that, that be respected until further research is finished please. Thanks.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 05:21, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Here are the sources:
Generally family trees are not sourced on Wikipedia. I can added sources if you want. I can just use the single Hawaiian Historical Society journal article already used in this article for most of them. All these connections are sourced and attested in Stokes, who actually did a detail analysis on this topic using many primary and secondary sources. I can even list many more sources linking these people in a family tree.
What inaccuracies are you trying to point? I have no idea what new knowledge you plan to add to this subject. But Wikipedia forbids users from generating original research, which sounds like what you are doing, so I advise unless you plan on publishing your work and challenging the consensus establish by historians and genealogists so far, to refrain from challenging the accepted sources which support this family tree.
I will let Wikipedia:Third opinion decide on this argument. Feel free to present your case, some of which are on my talk page. -- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 08:12, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
![]() |
Looks like a non-starter. I don't see any credible reason supplied by User:Mark Miller at this time to dispute the well-sourced information already in there. Feel free to follow-up on my talk page if I can assist in any way. Thanks! GRUcrule ( talk) 16:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC) |
I have only attempted to keep in contact with Kavebear on some research that shows that the family tree shown here is inaccurate to actual probate records from the petitions of each family member to their bloodline. Repeated myths are not actual records of relations and there are a number of commons mistakes. Since Kavebear has asked for a third opinion and that was more of a decision for one side and not a discussion to even bother to allow me to present my sources. I will simply not bother for now. Mistakes of this nature are common and it seems that the sources are using some of the most common mistakes.
"The source does not claim this. Synthesis. Combing facts to create another fact. Content dispute commenting out for now." Why is that every comment and edit you make you make me more confuse than before. What do you mean by "this"? .....It is typically impossible to create family tree without more than one source. I strongly object to you calling this synthesis. If I remove Pitt Kinau and Keolaokalani, the entire tree can be found in Stokes' article even the controversial links to Kamehamhea and Kalaniopuu. So where is the synthesis? I specifically removed Kamehamhea and Kalaniopuu from the tree because of the controversy. What are you claiming now that Kānekapōlei was not the mother of Kaoleioku or Kaoleioku was grandfathers to Keelikolani and Bernice Pauahi? You remember my earlier messages to you about your ancestor's connection the Moana family, that was found across multiple sources too. -- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 23:35, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Pauli Kaōleiokū was the son of Kānekapōlei and either Kamehameha I or Kalaniʻōpuʻu. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Kaōleiokū and Kahailiopua Luahine were parents of Kōnia. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Kaōleiokū and Keoua were parents of Pauahi. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Pauahi was the mother of Ruth Keʻelikōlani. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Kōnia was the mother of Bernice Pauahi Bishop. (Stokes 1935, p. 16)
Some of the traditional stories appear to state that, while Kamehameha the Great was still young and hairless, he had sexual relations with Kanekapolei and the result was Pauli Kaoleioku. The problem is...Kamehameha is dated to have been born in 1737 and Kanekaoplei was born in about 1755. Pauli was born in 1767, making Kanekapolei about 12 at the time of his birth. While possible and even probable that she had children at this young age it makes Kamehameha 30 years old. Now we know the dating is not completely accurate but...the Battle of Mokuohai took place another 15 years later. It is clear that the age differences and simple math do not support the story as accurate and with balance in its proper proportion. Even at the time of Bernice Bishop there is documented accounts of writers and other royals stating that the connection was not accurate. Kamehameha simply stopped his Hanai adopted son from being killed after the boys brother had been. It was also a gesture of peace to stop further bloodshed of family members. As an adopted child of Kamehameha he would not have had a blood line that made him in line for the throne and even Kamehameha V seemed to understand this.
If we treat this as it should, we should be covering a broader range of sources and be as clear as possible what the encyclopedic information is and what is currently not supported by reliable sources in a clear and unambiguous manner. Also the article is missing one of her husbands. Lula from Alika Hawaii. There may be some other spellings or names that this figure went by. Some non reliable sources are claiming Kanekapolei was married to someone named Mela or Alika Mela. The two names "Lula" and Mela" are too close not to believe it possible for them to be the same person as even Kanekapolei had multiple spellings in other sources. Alika Mela did exist and was a konohiki listed in the Mahele records. I believe Mela is mentioned in at least two or three reliable sources, one saying that he was actually English. I need to locate these sources but the source mentioning "Lula" appears to be somewhat weak. Its an LDS genealogy site and they seem to have a major issue with, spelling, dates, marriages, children etc. It's very incomplete and too many errors to be considered reliable and may be why Lula is not mentioned. Don't know. Looking at other sources for now.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 01:36, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
This reliable source has one of the strongest cases against Pauli being the son of Kamehameha by bringing all of the primary sources together for analysis and interpretation by expert translators and genealogists. Forty-third annual report of the Hawaiian Historical Society for the year 1934. This section entitled:"Kaoleioku paternity and biographical sketch" , Stokes clearly believes that Fornander was simply taking an uncritical record of two contemporary sources without question and that sources before that time show paternity as being Kalaniʻōpuʻu. Stokes believes these earlier sources to be more reliable and to be accurate.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 06:45, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Personal genealogy sites are not reliable sources and any dates prior to Cook are up to debate. The dates we know for sure are base on Hawaiian oral traditions found I printed published sources. Find me that and I will accept this date. The Kekoolani site is not anymore reliable than royal ark. It sources the stuff but most of them are dubious materials. If you look through all the sources stack on her name on that site I can bet you money that not a single one will say "about 1750" in either English or Hawaiian.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 16:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Stop forcefully asserting yourself in everything removing my edits. Requesting a third opinion is a definite course of action here. I have no personal agenda other than the fact that it is not entirely accurate. I found descriipancies in the past when using this site when I compared it to written sources, I found little written sources dating the birth years of most of the more famous chiefs and I don't see how anyone can know the date or even an estimate or her birthdate. It is like citing a Wikipedia article in a research paper. You have the footnotes but not necessarily all the informations are found in the footnotes because the creator can add something not found in the sources base on good faith estimate on his part and stick a footnote behind it talking about something completely different. Your opinion on the reliability of this source has been heard and we know it goes against mine.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
"This database contains over 3,800 individuals and 1,700 marriages (couples). There can be no doubt that there are many errors. We warmly welcome and will sincerely appreciate any corrections—whether of facts or typography—from our readers. We will continue to amend, correct and clarify the data as we develop this website in the future. We apologize in advance for any mistakes you may discover in the meantime and thank you for your understanding." http://www.kekoolani.org/Pages/Kekoolani%20Genealogy%20Database%20(PAF)/index.htm Information on this site should never used unless one can find a parallel in the written sources they cite in their entries.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
![]() |
It looks like both of you have done a lot of work on this page, and are the two main editors working on it.
I share KAVEBEAR's concerns about the accuracy of the source. That said, KAVEBEAR does not seem to have an alternate sourced date, just a general century. I am no expert on the topic and have not done extensive research, but a quick Google search produced several different dates for her birth, so I take it that it's all quite uncertain and guesswork. I think the best option is to openly acknowledge in the article that there is uncertainty about when she was born and provide all the sourced dates, along with rational for each. ~ ONUnicorn( Talk| Contribs) problem solving 04:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC) |
The LDS genealogy web site lists this subject's birthdate as around 1762.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 23:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Moving removed content to talk page:
The following family tree presents Kānekapōlei's descendants:
[1]
[2]
[3]
Kānekapōlei | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Keouawahine |
Pauli Kaōleiokū 1767–1818 | Kahailiopua Luahine | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pauahi 1804–1826 |
Laura Kōnia 1808–1857 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ruth Keʻelikōlani 1826–1883 |
Bernice Pauahi Bishop 1831–1884 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
John William Pitt Kīnau 1842–1859 | Keolaokalani 1862–1863 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ancestors of Kānekapōlei | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
OK, its time to start calling crap, crap here.
The history surrounding this figure as written on this page needs to be further refined. I can't help that there seems to be some discrepancy with what history books seem to claim (as conflicting as they may be) and what actual primary source documentation appears to be stating. So, I am opening up this can of worms again because I am not at all sure the sources used are even being used correctly.
I cannot find real evidence that this figure was ever noho'd to Kamehameha. The research into the Beamer family seems to indicate that Kamehameha I gave Kānekapōlei to Mr. Mela, his foreign advisor from Oahu who built his Royal residence on Maui. This also seems to indicate that there is some real issues with the dating of this figure as confused with another wife of the former aliʻi nui of Hawaii. I am also going to be revisiting the birth and death dates for Kamehameha I. I will be gathering all the sources together for editing within the next few weeks to a month.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 05:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Modern scholarship directly discussing this issue is needed to interpret this controversy and reevaluate Stokes' research with modern findings and putting the issue into modern perspectives since the Kamehameha Schools and Bishop Museum all seem to view their founder Bernice Pauahi Bishop as the last living (legitimate) descendant of Kamehameha I. Kalakaua is quoted as denying this entire line's descent from Kamehameha while his sister Liliuokalani's autobiography does the incredible thing of both denying Ruth Keelikolani as a descendant of Kamehameha I i her appendixes but stating her hanai mother Konia was the granddaughter of Kamehameha I in Chapter 1 (showing how inconsistent the opinions were even during the 19th century).-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 02:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Kānekapōlei&diff=675086085&oldid=675075589
In 1865, Kalakaua wrote in a book of genealogies that Kānekapōlei's granddaughter Kōnia, and Kānekapōlei, herself, have denied that Kaʻōleiokū was a son of Kamehameha I. [1] According to an account by Gorham D. Gilman, Kōnia repudiated and denied "introduction (by one of the family) giving as an ancestor a royal person not generally recognized as a legitimate ancestor, though the descendents were very ambitious to have it so acknowledged." [2] Historian John F. G. Stokes interpreted this "royal person" which Kōnia repudiate in Gilman's account as Kamehameha I. [3] [1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=K%C4%81nekap%C5%8Dlei&diff=675213148&oldid=675152270
)
Will somebody please fix the citation error for reference 1? I have attempted to do so, but my edit has been reverted. John.D.Ward ( talk) 10:18, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
According to Hawaiian historian Samuel Kamakau, Kauakahiakua owned the sea cucumber (loli) ovens of the district of Kaupo on the island of Maui. [1]
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kānekapōlei article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | A fact from Kānekapōlei appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 27 December 2012 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have commented out the family tree that appears to be incorrect. I will leave it out for the moment and ask that, that be respected until further research is finished please. Thanks.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 05:21, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Here are the sources:
Generally family trees are not sourced on Wikipedia. I can added sources if you want. I can just use the single Hawaiian Historical Society journal article already used in this article for most of them. All these connections are sourced and attested in Stokes, who actually did a detail analysis on this topic using many primary and secondary sources. I can even list many more sources linking these people in a family tree.
What inaccuracies are you trying to point? I have no idea what new knowledge you plan to add to this subject. But Wikipedia forbids users from generating original research, which sounds like what you are doing, so I advise unless you plan on publishing your work and challenging the consensus establish by historians and genealogists so far, to refrain from challenging the accepted sources which support this family tree.
I will let Wikipedia:Third opinion decide on this argument. Feel free to present your case, some of which are on my talk page. -- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 08:12, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
![]() |
Looks like a non-starter. I don't see any credible reason supplied by User:Mark Miller at this time to dispute the well-sourced information already in there. Feel free to follow-up on my talk page if I can assist in any way. Thanks! GRUcrule ( talk) 16:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC) |
I have only attempted to keep in contact with Kavebear on some research that shows that the family tree shown here is inaccurate to actual probate records from the petitions of each family member to their bloodline. Repeated myths are not actual records of relations and there are a number of commons mistakes. Since Kavebear has asked for a third opinion and that was more of a decision for one side and not a discussion to even bother to allow me to present my sources. I will simply not bother for now. Mistakes of this nature are common and it seems that the sources are using some of the most common mistakes.
"The source does not claim this. Synthesis. Combing facts to create another fact. Content dispute commenting out for now." Why is that every comment and edit you make you make me more confuse than before. What do you mean by "this"? .....It is typically impossible to create family tree without more than one source. I strongly object to you calling this synthesis. If I remove Pitt Kinau and Keolaokalani, the entire tree can be found in Stokes' article even the controversial links to Kamehamhea and Kalaniopuu. So where is the synthesis? I specifically removed Kamehamhea and Kalaniopuu from the tree because of the controversy. What are you claiming now that Kānekapōlei was not the mother of Kaoleioku or Kaoleioku was grandfathers to Keelikolani and Bernice Pauahi? You remember my earlier messages to you about your ancestor's connection the Moana family, that was found across multiple sources too. -- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 23:35, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Pauli Kaōleiokū was the son of Kānekapōlei and either Kamehameha I or Kalaniʻōpuʻu. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Kaōleiokū and Kahailiopua Luahine were parents of Kōnia. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Kaōleiokū and Keoua were parents of Pauahi. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Pauahi was the mother of Ruth Keʻelikōlani. (Stokes 1935, p. 16) Kōnia was the mother of Bernice Pauahi Bishop. (Stokes 1935, p. 16)
Some of the traditional stories appear to state that, while Kamehameha the Great was still young and hairless, he had sexual relations with Kanekapolei and the result was Pauli Kaoleioku. The problem is...Kamehameha is dated to have been born in 1737 and Kanekaoplei was born in about 1755. Pauli was born in 1767, making Kanekapolei about 12 at the time of his birth. While possible and even probable that she had children at this young age it makes Kamehameha 30 years old. Now we know the dating is not completely accurate but...the Battle of Mokuohai took place another 15 years later. It is clear that the age differences and simple math do not support the story as accurate and with balance in its proper proportion. Even at the time of Bernice Bishop there is documented accounts of writers and other royals stating that the connection was not accurate. Kamehameha simply stopped his Hanai adopted son from being killed after the boys brother had been. It was also a gesture of peace to stop further bloodshed of family members. As an adopted child of Kamehameha he would not have had a blood line that made him in line for the throne and even Kamehameha V seemed to understand this.
If we treat this as it should, we should be covering a broader range of sources and be as clear as possible what the encyclopedic information is and what is currently not supported by reliable sources in a clear and unambiguous manner. Also the article is missing one of her husbands. Lula from Alika Hawaii. There may be some other spellings or names that this figure went by. Some non reliable sources are claiming Kanekapolei was married to someone named Mela or Alika Mela. The two names "Lula" and Mela" are too close not to believe it possible for them to be the same person as even Kanekapolei had multiple spellings in other sources. Alika Mela did exist and was a konohiki listed in the Mahele records. I believe Mela is mentioned in at least two or three reliable sources, one saying that he was actually English. I need to locate these sources but the source mentioning "Lula" appears to be somewhat weak. Its an LDS genealogy site and they seem to have a major issue with, spelling, dates, marriages, children etc. It's very incomplete and too many errors to be considered reliable and may be why Lula is not mentioned. Don't know. Looking at other sources for now.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 01:36, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
This reliable source has one of the strongest cases against Pauli being the son of Kamehameha by bringing all of the primary sources together for analysis and interpretation by expert translators and genealogists. Forty-third annual report of the Hawaiian Historical Society for the year 1934. This section entitled:"Kaoleioku paternity and biographical sketch" , Stokes clearly believes that Fornander was simply taking an uncritical record of two contemporary sources without question and that sources before that time show paternity as being Kalaniʻōpuʻu. Stokes believes these earlier sources to be more reliable and to be accurate.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 06:45, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Personal genealogy sites are not reliable sources and any dates prior to Cook are up to debate. The dates we know for sure are base on Hawaiian oral traditions found I printed published sources. Find me that and I will accept this date. The Kekoolani site is not anymore reliable than royal ark. It sources the stuff but most of them are dubious materials. If you look through all the sources stack on her name on that site I can bet you money that not a single one will say "about 1750" in either English or Hawaiian.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 16:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Stop forcefully asserting yourself in everything removing my edits. Requesting a third opinion is a definite course of action here. I have no personal agenda other than the fact that it is not entirely accurate. I found descriipancies in the past when using this site when I compared it to written sources, I found little written sources dating the birth years of most of the more famous chiefs and I don't see how anyone can know the date or even an estimate or her birthdate. It is like citing a Wikipedia article in a research paper. You have the footnotes but not necessarily all the informations are found in the footnotes because the creator can add something not found in the sources base on good faith estimate on his part and stick a footnote behind it talking about something completely different. Your opinion on the reliability of this source has been heard and we know it goes against mine.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
"This database contains over 3,800 individuals and 1,700 marriages (couples). There can be no doubt that there are many errors. We warmly welcome and will sincerely appreciate any corrections—whether of facts or typography—from our readers. We will continue to amend, correct and clarify the data as we develop this website in the future. We apologize in advance for any mistakes you may discover in the meantime and thank you for your understanding." http://www.kekoolani.org/Pages/Kekoolani%20Genealogy%20Database%20(PAF)/index.htm Information on this site should never used unless one can find a parallel in the written sources they cite in their entries.-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
![]() |
It looks like both of you have done a lot of work on this page, and are the two main editors working on it.
I share KAVEBEAR's concerns about the accuracy of the source. That said, KAVEBEAR does not seem to have an alternate sourced date, just a general century. I am no expert on the topic and have not done extensive research, but a quick Google search produced several different dates for her birth, so I take it that it's all quite uncertain and guesswork. I think the best option is to openly acknowledge in the article that there is uncertainty about when she was born and provide all the sourced dates, along with rational for each. ~ ONUnicorn( Talk| Contribs) problem solving 04:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC) |
The LDS genealogy web site lists this subject's birthdate as around 1762.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 23:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Moving removed content to talk page:
The following family tree presents Kānekapōlei's descendants:
[1]
[2]
[3]
Kānekapōlei | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Keouawahine |
Pauli Kaōleiokū 1767–1818 | Kahailiopua Luahine | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pauahi 1804–1826 |
Laura Kōnia 1808–1857 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ruth Keʻelikōlani 1826–1883 |
Bernice Pauahi Bishop 1831–1884 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
John William Pitt Kīnau 1842–1859 | Keolaokalani 1862–1863 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ancestors of Kānekapōlei | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
OK, its time to start calling crap, crap here.
The history surrounding this figure as written on this page needs to be further refined. I can't help that there seems to be some discrepancy with what history books seem to claim (as conflicting as they may be) and what actual primary source documentation appears to be stating. So, I am opening up this can of worms again because I am not at all sure the sources used are even being used correctly.
I cannot find real evidence that this figure was ever noho'd to Kamehameha. The research into the Beamer family seems to indicate that Kamehameha I gave Kānekapōlei to Mr. Mela, his foreign advisor from Oahu who built his Royal residence on Maui. This also seems to indicate that there is some real issues with the dating of this figure as confused with another wife of the former aliʻi nui of Hawaii. I am also going to be revisiting the birth and death dates for Kamehameha I. I will be gathering all the sources together for editing within the next few weeks to a month.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 05:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Modern scholarship directly discussing this issue is needed to interpret this controversy and reevaluate Stokes' research with modern findings and putting the issue into modern perspectives since the Kamehameha Schools and Bishop Museum all seem to view their founder Bernice Pauahi Bishop as the last living (legitimate) descendant of Kamehameha I. Kalakaua is quoted as denying this entire line's descent from Kamehameha while his sister Liliuokalani's autobiography does the incredible thing of both denying Ruth Keelikolani as a descendant of Kamehameha I i her appendixes but stating her hanai mother Konia was the granddaughter of Kamehameha I in Chapter 1 (showing how inconsistent the opinions were even during the 19th century).-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 02:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Kānekapōlei&diff=675086085&oldid=675075589
In 1865, Kalakaua wrote in a book of genealogies that Kānekapōlei's granddaughter Kōnia, and Kānekapōlei, herself, have denied that Kaʻōleiokū was a son of Kamehameha I. [1] According to an account by Gorham D. Gilman, Kōnia repudiated and denied "introduction (by one of the family) giving as an ancestor a royal person not generally recognized as a legitimate ancestor, though the descendents were very ambitious to have it so acknowledged." [2] Historian John F. G. Stokes interpreted this "royal person" which Kōnia repudiate in Gilman's account as Kamehameha I. [3] [1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=K%C4%81nekap%C5%8Dlei&diff=675213148&oldid=675152270
)
Will somebody please fix the citation error for reference 1? I have attempted to do so, but my edit has been reverted. John.D.Ward ( talk) 10:18, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
According to Hawaiian historian Samuel Kamakau, Kauakahiakua owned the sea cucumber (loli) ovens of the district of Kaupo on the island of Maui. [1]
References